EB Preview :: Lusotannan

i relation those stories ppl the ribatejo region that the Lusitan horse as i refered earlier, and it's connection to the horses used by the Lusotannan can we assume it's true? cuz although this is a muscled horse, and a big, imponent type of horse, i don't seem to see it being used as ambush, although i know it can be used as a light horse, and his great speed could allow lusotannan to use them, or at least their proto ancestors... cuz although there is the legend that the lusotannan bred the lusitan horse for the first, here in my region (santarém, flood plain/lusitan area) i can't find anything that supports it on the net... maybe any of you historians dedicated to our ancestor may know something???

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Originally Posted by iberus_generalis

i relation those stories ppl the ribatejo region that the Lusitan horse as i refered earlier, and it's connection to the horses used by the Lusotannan can we assume it's true? cuz although this is a muscled horse, and a big, imponent type of horse, i don't seem to see it being used as ambush, although i know it can be used as a light horse, and his great speed could allow lusotannan to use them, or at least their proto ancestors... cuz although there is the legend that the lusotannan bred the lusitan horse for the first, here in my region (santarém, flood plain/lusitan area) i can't find anything that supports it on the net... maybe any of you historians dedicated to our ancestor may know something???

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I know little of the relation between the present day and ancient times Iberian horse breeds. But I do know that the Iberian horses were even more famed for its characteristics in those days than they are now.

One note though: these catas were exclusive to the tribes in the area of the Edetani and Bastestani of southeastern Iberia. If you are implying the Ribatejo one's has their descendants you're off the mark. Lusitani never had such heavily armoured horsemen or horses.

WTF??? alentejo??? since when? the genuine lusitans are bred around the Tagus River, in Ribatejo!! =) Alentejo is good, don't get me wrong, but the genuine Lusitan Horse is Ribatejano....=) loling... i know that in later years lusitan horses have started being bred in Alentejo, but the most important Horse farm for Lusitan Horses in the country and the world are in Ribatejo=)

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

No, because the faction is the Lusitani and these are regionals from another area. Therefore they will be recruitable in 1 province at the highest MIC level and be damn expensive. The Lusitani BG will be horsemen - heavy cavalry.

No problem. :smiley:

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So...What IS the Lustani General Unit?
Those fancy smancy Cataphract Units?

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Originally Posted by iberus_generalis

WTF??? alentejo??? since when? the genuine lusitans are bred around the Tagus River, in Ribatejo!! =) Alentejo is good, don't get me wrong, but the genuine Lusitan Horse is Ribatejano....=) loling... i know that in later years lusitan horses have started being bred in Alentejo, but the most important Horse farm for Lusitan Horses in the country and the world are in Ribatejo=)

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Sorry. Wrote the wrong province. But the idea stands.

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

So...What IS the Lusitani General Unit?

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Noble cavalry. You'll probably see it in 0.8... :wink:

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

Those fancy smancy Cataphract Units?

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No. Those are regionals, exclusive to the southeastern Iberian regions. They represent the elite cavalry forces of the Bastestani and Edetani tribes.

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

Fire-hardned javelins actually. Called sude by the Lusitani. It might sound a bit like stone age equipement but it was really used in this period by the lowest of the Lusitani warriors. And that is what they are: poor shepperds leavied to fight in an emergency. So, they just prepared a few wodden sticks, packed up and went away. My advice in their use is never ever make them fight in hand-to-hand combat except when you're in dire straits. Any other units will just turn them in to grinded meat - provided they don't rout sooner than that. They are good to perform ambushes, throw a few sude into the enemy and run like hell... :wink:

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:inquisitive:
Cor blimey. So there are troops even more pitiable than the Akontistai and Pantodapoi...

As for the catas, I've read that bit about the Romans paying the ones the Seleucids had left to go away too. It's on the EB site unit description anyway - "They passed into history when most of the unit was bribed by Pompey during his conquest of the east. They formed the basis for the Roman cataphracts of later ages."

But then, one gets the impression just about everyone who was something in the East had at least something that could reasonably pass for a cataphract - Parthians and Armenians for sure and in quite the numbers, wouldn't be surprised if the Pontics at least tried, the short-lived Herodians are mentioned to have fielded heavily armoured cavalry, and later on Palmyrene catas gave the Romans some trouble...

I've got the impression the Romans copied theirs first from the Sarmatians (the equites cataphractii - apparently not all that elite type as they turn up as part of limitanensis regional forces towards the end of the Western Empire) and in a bit different, and heavier, version from their opponents in Asia Minor (equites clibanarii; different type of armour by what I've read, and always part of comitatenses formations if not outright palace units) though. But that's just what I recall from a couple of Osprey books.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

:inquisitive:
Cor blimey. So there are troops even more pitiable than the Akontistai and Pantodapoi...

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Well, these guys are on level with the Akontistai except for the hitting power of their sude which is lower than the javelins. Crap infantry with a few uses.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

As for the catas, I've read that bit about the Romans paying the ones the Seleucids had left to go away too. It's on the EB site unit description anyway - "They passed into history when most of the unit was bribed by Pompey during his conquest of the east. They formed the basis for the Roman cataphracts of later ages."

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I see. I haven't read all of EB's texts and historical info, you know? :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Watchman

But then, one gets the impression just about everyone who was something in the East had at least something that could reasonably pass for a cataphract - Parthians and Armenians for sure and in quite the numbers, wouldn't be surprised if the Pontics at least tried, the short-lived Herodians are mentioned to have fielded heavily armoured cavalry, and later on Palmyrene catas gave the Romans some trouble...

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Yes, indeed. In the east and steppes the landscape provided ideal ground for many types of cavalry and benefits for their tactical use.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I've got the impression the Romans copied theirs first from the Sarmatians (the equites cataphractii - apparently not all that elite type as they turn up as part of limitanensis regional forces towards the end of the Western Empire) and in a bit different, and heavier, version from their opponents in Asia Minor (equites clibanarii; different type of armour by what I've read, and always part of comitatenses formations if not outright palace units) though. But that's just what I recall from a couple of Osprey books.

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Different climates (and also local resources) usually forced the Romans to adopt different types of armour in different places. Scale was prefered in the east as opposed to mail in the west. The cataphracts probably just followeed that tendency.

Regarding the horse talk....i seriously doubt that they used the actual Lusitan horse. The actual Lusitan is a horse that received some arabic blood and that only happened when the Moors invaded the Peninsula and added that arabic blood on both the Lusitan and the Andalusian. So i think they probably used an ancerter of these 2 breeds.

Now what they probably used was the Sorraia horse...which still exists and faces a serious extintion threat, and apparently its one of the Lusitans ancestors or the Garrano...which also still exists in the mountains to the North...which, in my far from expert opinion, makes some sense since these are mountain horses...smaller but cope very well with mountainous terrain where most of the tribes lived in their settlements( castros/ oppida), they would be also very good horses to use on ambushes and guerrilla warfare.

Just a quick question. What happens to the existing array of EB7.4 "Carthage-in-Iberia" models and skins. Do these EB Preview models add or replace the existing selection of troop-types?

H.

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Originally Posted by HamilcarBarca

Just a quick question. What happens to the existing array of EB7.4 "Carthage-in-Iberia" models and skins. Do these EB Preview models add or replace the existing selection of troop-types?

H.

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They remain as was planned from the beggining. The 0.74 existing ones are southeastern Iberian regional lower to mid-end units. The Iberi Lanceari and the Loricati Scutari are the higher-end veterans of this same region. But worry not. I intend to retouch the 0.74 ones quite a bit after I have finished the rest of the planned Iberian units.

Ok, I will.

In so far as the Lusotann are concerned, I must admit that they are really underappreciated. I know you based all your units on facts, not speculation, and that is why they are so beautiful, as reality has a way of being better than any fiction.

That being said, I really believe that once 0.8 is out more people will discover this wonderful faction, explore its magnificent history and APPRECIATE their place in history. EB has never been about ROMANS, ROMANS, ROMANS and ok, maybe even GREEKS *4 and all other races as "extras in red shirts" to fill stuff.

"Barbarians" were people with just different tongue and culture. We still are :laugh4:

Hell now most I also try to play the Lusitanians...:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Birka Viking

Hell now most I also try to play the Lusitanians...:2thumbsup:

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And you won't have to wait long to do it... :wink:

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

And you won't have to wait long to do it... :wink:

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LOL sounds great man!!! I have a new monster pc with a new ATI x1950xtx 512 card and Intels 6600 core2 pocessor who just want to take a bite of the new 0.8 beta..:cheerleader::balloon2: :dancing:

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Originally Posted by Birka Viking

LOL sounds great man!!! I have a new monster pc with a new ATI x1950xtx 512 card and Intels 6600 core2 pocessor who just want to take a bite of the new 0.8 beta..:cheerleader::balloon2: :dancing:

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Well, with that beast, you won't have any lag. I dare say you will have little lag by playing M2TW with that PC...

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

Well, with that beast, you won't have any lag. I dare say you will have little lag by playing M2TW with that PC...

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Problably not..but I wont play M2TW to EB2 is out..I dont like the medievel time age....So I will only play 0.8 when its out. And I also like acurate game play and not some fantasy stuff..:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Birka Viking

Problably not..but I wont play M2TW to EB2 is out..I dont like the medievel time age....

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Strange for a guy that calls himself Birka Viking and has a viking avatar...:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Birka Viking

So I will only play 0.8 when its out. And I also like acurate game play and not some fantasy stuff..:balloon2:

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Then, for EB2 you're going to have to wait a bit more.

BTW, maybe our new grass (PROM's grass) will take out a few fps after all... :wink:

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

Strange for a guy that calls himself Birka Viking and has a viking avatar...:dizzy2:


Then, for EB2 you're going to have to wait a bit more.

BTW, maybe our new grass (PROM's grass) will take out a few fps after all... :wink:

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Iam most intrested of the time to 1066 ad when the Viking age ended with the battle of Hastings...And M2TW starts at 1080-1530 ad...and as I said that time isent realy intresting for me...

Well Iam ready to wait for it...especialy when the 0.8 comes out..lol

Random question: why do the Iberi Lanceari not wear any greaves or other armour for their legs.

It seems kinda odd to coat your entire horse in mail, wear heavy scales on your chest, and then leave the part of your own body wich is most vunerable to slashing unprotected :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Random question: why do the Iberi Lanceari not wear any greaves or other armour for their legs.

It seems kinda odd to coat your entire horse in mail, wear heavy scales on your chest, and then leave the part of your own body wich is most vunerable to slashing unprotected :inquisitive:

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Attentive, hey? :wink: Yes, they do have greaves. A lapse on my part when making the unit images. I forgot to turn that layer on.

:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

Tenho de ver de onde vem esse estudo. Embora se perceba porque isso pode acontecer:

-Houve muitas migrações norte-sul e vice-versa através do estreito de Gibraltar muito antes da idade do bronze e mesmo durante, portanto não é estranho a identificação genética comum.

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Edit :( the link is gone)- I didn´t saw their main page,posted by Lusitani : So,here is the summary:

Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation
L. PEREIRA1, 2, M. J. PRATA1, 2 and A. AMORIM1, 2
The analysis of the hypervariable regions I and II of mitochondrial DNA in Portugal showed that this Iberian population presents a higher level of diversity than some neighbouring populations. The classification of the different sequences into haplogroups revealed the presence of all the most important European haplogroups, including those that expanded through Europe in the Palaeolithic, and those whose expansion has occurred during the Neolithic. Additionally a rather distinct African influence was detected in this Portuguese survey, as signalled by the distributions of haplogroups U6 and L, present at higher frequencies than those usually reported in Iberian populations. The geographical distributions of both haplogroups were quite different, with U6 being restricted to North Portugal whereas L was widespread all over the country. This seems to point to different population movements as the main contributors for the two haplogroup introductions. We hypothesise that the recent Black African slave trade could have been the mediator of most of the L sequence inputs, while the population movement associated with the Muslim rule of Iberia has predominantly introduced U6 lineages.

Have you guys looked at other links there?
Like this one:



What a load of crap...it just shows how uninformed some people can be...and partial

Link erased ...although i dont really see why...it was just bullshit...

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Originally Posted by Lusitani

Have you guys looked at other links there?
Like this one:

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr22p.htm

What a load of crap...it just shows how uninformed some people can be...and partial

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Man that is so full of false cause fallacies that I lost count. What a tonne of boring crap.

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Originally Posted by A. N. Idiot

It only required an influx and absorption of just over ten per cent of non-White blood into mainstream Portuguese society to cause a significant shift in population make-up of that country. This shift in make-up immediately affected Portugal's position and status in the world, with its decline being clearly linked to the absorption process.

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The move from the first sentence to the second seems a really large leap of imagination. However thats unfair because this is the conclusion, so lets look at the main body of text.

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Originally Posted by A. N. Idiot

The absorption of the ten percent Black population into the Portuguese population also identically mirrors the disappearance of Portugal as a world power. The Portuguese of the Age of Discoveries and those of today are essentially two different peoples. The effects of the absorption of the Black slaves has retarded Portugal's history ever since. Today that country has long been acknowledged as the most backward country in Europe with an illiteracy rate of over 30 per cent.

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Whaaaaat?

Foot

Well, if you can't find any blame in yourself or your own actions, why not blame someone else? Preferably some minority or just anyone else who is different from you. :laugh4:

Well, that link has a "whitehistory" on it that gives away all the text conclusion.

I always wondered one thing (Btw, awesome awesome units), wouldn't it be ever-so more cooler that in the Gladiator movie people would call Maximus, instead of Hispaniard, Lusitan? It would be much cooler and more realistic, since we all know which people were the strongest in Iberia. Teehee!

Disclaimer: my link is exclusively a reference to a medical article about genetic,from:

Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto.

Download the PDF and read it.

(There are no politic or racist conotations there......)
It is a cientific answer to Aymar Mauri question:

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Embora se perceba porque isso pode acontecer:....

....Houve muitas migrações norte-sul e vice-versa através do estreito de Gibraltar muito antes da idade do bronze e mesmo durante, portanto não é estranho a identificação genética comum.

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Another thing that is quite intriguing. Since I do have quite a relatively good grasp of the Pre-Roman Era (Me being a portuguese student of archeology)
I have never seen or read anything that resembled Iberian Tribes fielding pratically "Human Tanks", namely the Dosidataskeli. What's their description? Or even better, what's their history? I mean, I would even comprehend the Iberian Colonies of Carthage might have raised several groups of those (For Carthage), but in deep wild Iberia? Never heard, never seen, never read. If Viriathus had groups of those, no wonder he managed to defeat the Romans. Hehe.

They're not Lusitanians. And, as such, not part of the factional roster.

The most common Lusotannan unit will be a spear/javelin warrior protected only by a caetra and [maybe] a leather helmet. As you can see the vast majority of our units will be *very* lightly protected, with armour of quilted linen basically at most. Bronze helmets are a common find, but even those will be rare on our units, just to be on the safe-side and leather greaves are described as common too.

Only the very best troops will have significant metallic armour.

BTW: That site is full of crap. Even if it was true, what is really the problem and how would it be directly responsible for the fall of the Empire? These are the kinds of idiots that should be wiped out from the face of the earth.

PS: @ Jolt » Wild Iberia is such a wrong statement. *Don't* fall into that stereotype.

As for the unit itself, Ranika I suppose was the director for that unit so I'll let others explain. I'm really only responsible for the agile lusitanians.