$27 Million Evolution-Debunking Museum To Open

Secularism is really nothing more than the recognition that people generally don't want someone elses's beliefs shoved down their throat.

As to bias, I will quite happily attack any unreasonable belief and I will try to do it in a reasonable way.

As to Satan, he has no power, he did not introduce sin into the world. You cannot sin without knowledge. Once man ate the fruit he had knowledge and therefore responsibility, because he had exercised his free will.

Angels on the other hand don't seem to have free will, so how could Satan defy God, unless it was God's will?

also, where in Genesis does it say the serpant is Satan or a servant of Satan.

Satan has about as much power as a retirred tax-man.

Maybe Satan=evil is just a tool. I dont know what others think but while its sad i would say that many times things that mold people better persons are the bad things that happend in life,ofcourse those can turn people also worse,but isnt that the free will of man acting there.~:)

Satan and the idea of hell was really introduced by Greek Scholars, who wanted a little bit of say in Christian Dogma. Judaism doesn't have a hell, or a hell in the same sense Christian use, nor any tangible leader behind all the evil in the world.

However if you take a good look at Greco-Romano Paganism, You will then know were the idea of Hell and Satan come from, Pluto and Hades. Its obvious that some Scholars of the period didn't want to give up their beliefs entirely, so instead changed bits and pieces of the Bible so that it would resemble their own religion and cause less distress among the masses.

Similarly, many of the things that are "evil" are aspects of pre-existing religions to stamp them out more thoroughly, or are adopted as aprt of the religion - either way, ensuring that the only meme that is passed on is this one religion.

~:smoking:

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Satan and the idea of hell was really introduced by Greek Scholars, who wanted a little bit of say in Christian Dogma.

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A little bit? The whole basic idea of a transcendent god outside time was a greek interpolation into the apocalyptic Jewish cult that was nascent christianity.

To be fair to Navaros though he follows the arbitrary tribal deity of the old testament, with none of this namby pamby new testament stuff. Its a wonder he even believes in an afterlife.

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According to the most recent credible polls, like the one mentioned in the article in the OP and the one linked-to on this board a few months ago, between 50% - 60% of Americans believe what the creation Museum says.

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Well that narrows it down , option Aon the poll in post #51 can be struck out , so that leaves B or C

Man, it keeps me entertained to imagine what would the world be like if, instead of doing everything in the last 6 days, God had actually taken time to think it through... My guess is he was the biggest slacker of all.


I mean, how many projects you did in the last 6 days before the deadline was actually good?


As of the museum itself, don't really have an opinion. As long as it gets people to read and travel, it is all good. They could open another one in Vegas while they're at it. Surely that would mean 5 milion visitors a year instead of just 1.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Where would I find those?

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Nearly every museum in the U.S. If you can't find one of those, you should really stay in doors.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

It is true that we tolerate (as in: let stand) posts with content that, if it were on a religion board, might be considered blasphemous or sacreligious by true believers. We do step in when the content is personally slanderous toward another member, per Org rules.

The alternative would be to disallow any discussion of religion at all, lest we offend some sect. Yet, we observe the fact that a religion-related topic gets started every week. The membership here wants to discuss it. So we allow it, and watch closely, without favouring one religion or non-religion over another, as much as humanly possible.

If you feel those efforts are inadequate, you are certainly within your privilege to post a complaint in Watchtower. I look forward to seeing your suggestions for improvement of religion coverage in the Backroom.

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Dude, there is a difference between discussing and insulting religion. If I said half the things about mulsims that these people say about Christians, every muslim on this board would be rightly offended. Even if I said something both true and objective, such as islam is a religion of war, or the islamic religion is anti-female (Not that islamic people are, but that the religion is), I would probably be banned.
They can discuss their opinions of religion without throwing out slurs and jabs and insult about God, Christianity, and Christians. (In case you couldn't figure it out, all the insults, slander, and false accusations people on this board have said about Christian, they have said about me and other board members.) Again, think of it in a way that your politically correct little head may understand: If I said that all muslims were stone age, wife beating, murderous, sadistic perverts (all things said about christians on this board) I'd be banned. I find it VERY insulting and VERY offending when people say those things about Christianity. (Tell me, what would you do if I said all evolutionists were stupid cavemen?)

These people are mature and should be able to discuss religion; but should be made to do so in a mature way, not like a bunch of little schoolgirls.

I like the backroom and would like to continue here, but I find people's attitude and actions (and the moderators job of moderating) quite appalling.

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Originally Posted by Beren Son Of Barahi

I also think that members here know a lot more about western religions (Christianity) then they do about eastern ones like Hinduisms or islam... so naturally people stick to what they know. also religions hold up beliefs as cold hard facts. If i were to say the sun orbits around a teacup, people would quite rightly tell me i am a crackpot(pun intended).

If religion is grounds to say things like homosexuals are this or that, or people who have abortions are this or that, or people who have sex before marriage are this or that. Then people have the right to question, disagree and point out things about religions.

they are a lot of intelligent people on these boards,most of the people here are adults, it would be a shame to limit what can be discussed, or to censor what is said. most people are careful to attack the points, statements or posts and not the person or religions per say'.
~:grouphug: :whip:

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I assure you, you know a LOT less about christianity than you suppose.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

This must be one the few times I'll ever agree with tribesman. But you are way off with that generalization Panther. Maybe you should go back through some of the old threads before making such a bold statement.

Nav are you seriously trying to say PETA is spreading god's word? Wheat, barley and all other plants are also living creatures. Is it somehow acceptable to Yawe that we choose to murder the apple instead of killing the animals? They both are living, both created, in your theology, by Yawe yet you kill it and feel no shame?

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GOD said that man could eat meat, not satan. See a discussion, not a mob stoning. Surely this is an improvement.

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Man, it keeps me entertained to imagine what would the world be like if, instead of doing everything in the last 6 days, God had actually taken time to think it through... My guess is he was the biggest slacker of all.


I mean, how many projects you did in the last 6 days before the deadline was actually good?

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That's why you are not God ;)

I don't think there is anything wrong with insulting religious beliefs. If people can't defend themselves maybe they need to rethink what they are dedicating (wasting?) their lives to.

That's not the same as ignorantly damming a whole group of people though just due to religion.

So I'd say insulting creationists beliefs is fine, whereas saying all Christians are ignorant haters of progress is clearly not true.

Vuk:

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Nearly every museum in the U.S. If you can't find one of those, you should really stay in doors.

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The one who makes the argument, gives the example.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Dude, there is a difference between discussing and insulting religion.

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So you don't like people insulting religions and other ideas they find absurd. Fine enough. Well then,

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Even if I said something both true and objective, such as islam is a religion of war, or the islamic religion is anti-female [emphasis by me] (Not that islamic people are, but that the religion is)

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...

Apparently you haven't followed your own advice very well. :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Vuk

They can discuss their opinions of religion without throwing out slurs and jabs and insult about God, Christianity, and Christians. (In case you couldn't figure it out, all the insults, slander, and false accusations people on this board have said about Christian, they have said about me and other board members.)

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Thou shalt not insult other members. Okay. That's good advice. So...

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Again, think of it in a way that your politically correct little head may understand

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Wasn't this an insult to another member? :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I find it VERY insulting and VERY offending when people say those things about Christianity. (Tell me, what would you do if I said all evolutionists were stupid cavemen?)

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The problem is, nobody's been saying that.

Also, please stop using the term "evolutionist." It is very offensive to me since that label is created with the inherent intention to slander and demean.

:smug:

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Originally Posted by Swordmaster

As of the museum itself, don't really have an opinion. As long as it gets people to read and travel, it is all good. They could open another one in Vegas while they're at it. Surely that would mean 5 milion visitors a year instead of just 1.

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You said all that I needed to say. Congratulations for the town of Petersburg; I believe the museum would produce a nice boost in revenue for the local economy.

Obviously I'm not threading near the "discussion" going on.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Vuk:
The one who makes the argument, gives the example.
So you don't like people insulting religions and other ideas they find absurd. Fine enough. Well then,
...


Apparently you haven't followed your own advice very well. :juggle2:

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I am not insulting the religion, I am making a statement of fact, and one I am qualified to make. If anyone here has read the koran and would like to discuss it with me, start a new thread - I am completely willing to hold what I said and defend it.
Most people here throw out stupid, schoolgirl accusation about Christians and Christianity without understanding Christianity, or, probably, even reading the Bible. I have not read the Bible in years, but I count myself qualified to make statements about Christianity in a Historical and Theological sense as well as state my own beliefs. Most people on this board know nothing about Christianity except what was fed to them in school. ei. that Christians are racist, kitty murdering wackos stuck in the stoneage.

...

Apparently you missed the whole point of my statement.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Thou shalt not insult other members. Okay. That's good advice. So...


Wasn't this an insult to another member? :idea2:

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I was not insulting him but simply trying to make him aware of his predjudice and the fact that I am trying to put it in a way that will help him overcome it.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

The problem is, nobody's been saying that.

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??????????

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I am not insulting the religion, I am making a statement of fact, and one I am qualified to make. If anyone here has read the koran and would like to discuss it with me, start a new thread - I am completely willing to hold what I said and defend it.

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Defend it, then. Else I'll be forced to "make a statement of fact" about "Christianity" (what sect are we talking about anyway? If it's Navaros' brand then I have no clue which denomination he follows) that I don't have to defend.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Most people here throw out stupid, schoolgirl accusation about Christians and Christianity without understanding Christianity, or, probably, even reading the Bible. I have not read the Bible in years, but I count myself qualified to make statements about Christianity in a Historical and Theological sense as well as state my own beliefs. Most people on this board know nothing about Christianity except what was fed to them in school. ei. that Christians are racist, kitty murdering wackos stuck in the stoneage.

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Yup. More insults. And strawmen. Avoiding "direct" insult with "most people" and "schoolgirls" don't make it any less of an insult. Besides, like I said, nobody's been throwing around accusations that Christians are dumb, kitty murdering racists stuck in the stone age. You gotta quote the guilty person out for us to see, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Apparently you missed the whole point of my statement.

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Which is?

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I was not insulting him but simply trying to make him aware of his predjudice and the fact that I am trying to put it in a way that will help him overcome it.

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Yeah sure. Not insulting, just condescending. :wall:

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Defend it, then. Else I'll be forced to "make a statement of fact" about "Christianity" (what sect are we talking about anyway? If it's Navaros' brand then I have no clue which denomination he follows) that I don't have to defend.
Yup. More insults. And strawmen. Avoiding "direct" insult with "most people" and "schoolgirls" don't make it any less of an insult. Besides, like I said, nobody's been throwing around accusations that Christians are dumb, kitty murdering racists stuck in the stone age. You gotta quote the guilty person out for us to see, sorry.
Which is?
Yeah sure. Not insulting, just condescending. :wall:

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As this discussion you are moving torward has moved quite off topic, may I suggest you repost this in a new thread. I am afraid I am going offline now, but I'll be back tomorrow or later today. If you seriously want to discuss this make a new thread and name it something I can recognize.
Till then

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Most people on this board know nothing about Christianity except what was fed to them in school. ei. that Christians are racist, kitty murdering wackos stuck in the stoneage.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
But but but ...there was no stone age , the so called stone age is still in existance today with people who wandered from the path of Gods righteousness .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hey Vuk , if you want to defend a bunch of fruitcakes because they call themselves Christian and you see yourself as a Christian also , it might be an idea to find out about the fruitcakes you wish to defend .
Christians like Muslims come in many different flavours . People who call themselves Christian like Ken Ham does is fruit and nut flavour , there are others worse , a lot worse that are purely nut flavoured , can we see you springing to their defence aswell just because they call themselves Christian ?

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If it's Navaros' brand then I have no clue which denomination he follows

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Antiochus
That is because he will not say which denomination he folows , neither will he say which version of the Bible he believes is the one true literal word of god (thats why I am tending towards option B in the poll)

In reply to post 102 from vuk.

firstly i was not talking about my self, as an atheist i am not even remotely interested in what most religions says about anything, although i find some of what Budisim talks about to have a practical worth to it . i have never claimed to be an "expert" in religion, although some people on these boards do know a whole heap about it, and some of these people have come out again the first poster.

secondly, if you knew anything about Islam, you would know that it is the interpretations of the qur'an that make Islam such an easy target, and such an easy tool for people to abuse. A lot of popular or misrepresented parts of the qur'an are the ones that causes the most trouble. Also Islam is most common among poor and uneducated people in some of the harshest parts of the world.
for the most part Islam is about the inner struggle and fighting the urges from within (jihad). Eastern religions tend to take on form of binding effect that works along old lines of tribe, lands, countries, cultures and races, it is also is adapted to rally people in times of need, like invasions, of which there has been heaps...this is where it gets the war like tags, the middle-east is not divided up in to nice neat little countries, it is much more complex then that, with tribes, races, religions and countries all playing a role in what happens and what happens in one place might effect others, this is where the US got into so much trouble. like wise i am more then happy to converse with you about this, mind you i am a AID worker and not a Imam, so my knowledge is more based in real life, having lived and worked in the largest Muslim country in the world...i know a little about it.

as others have said, point out what is offensive to you, so people can be more careful, or the mods can step in if needed. the initial poster didn't start out in a nice way, and you seem to be throwing things around too. on the other hand, be a big boy and suck it up a little.... if we can handle it surely with the strength of your convictions you can too...

on another note, wasn't there a survey of the highest ranking high schools and colleges in the US, one of the questions was which side was germany on in WWII and over half of the people asked said the Allies>? polls are pretty good for nothing. polls can be made to say anything you want them too.


http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/new...gion/flash.htm

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Originally Posted by Navaros

According to the most recent credible polls, like the one mentioned in the article in the OP and the one linked-to on this board a few months ago, between 50% - 60% of Americans believe what the creation Museum says. Due to the existence and future popularity of the creation Museum, that number is bound to rise even more in the coming months and years. :2thumbsup:

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That's really, really sad. :thumbsdown:

It makes me worry that the majority of people in the most powerful nation on earth can't acknowledge pure scientific fact when it's stated plainly and simply and instead have to regress to spirituality to find a 'nicer' answer.

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That's really, really sad.

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Hey Sapi , what Navaros wrote about the poll isn't true , so don't get too sad about it :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by sapi

That's really, really sad. :thumbsdown:

It makes me worry that the majority of people in the most powerful nation on earth can't acknowledge pure scientific fact when it's stated plainly and simply and instead have to regress to spirituality to find a 'nicer' answer.

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i dont see why its sad? --> they're allowed to have an opinion.. im willing to bet that creationists can come up with just as much "pure scientific fact when its stated plainly and simply" to back they're argument....

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Originally Posted by BDC

I don't think there is anything wrong with insulting religious beliefs. If people can't defend themselves maybe they need to rethink what they are dedicating (wasting?) their lives to.

That's not the same as ignorantly damming a whole group of people though just due to religion.

So I'd say insulting creationists beliefs is fine, whereas saying all Christians are ignorant haters of progress is clearly not true.

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why? insulting any belief of any kind (and that includes creationist beliefs) is wrong, arguing against them is fine...

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Originally Posted by Vuk

there is a difference between discussing and insulting religion. If I said half the things about mulsims that these people say about Christians, every muslim on this board would be rightly offended. Even if I said something both true and objective, such as islam is a religion of war, or the islamic religion is anti-female (Not that islamic people are, but that the religion is), I would probably be banned.

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those arent true at all, but besides that its quite a good point...

:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

im willing to bet that creationists can come up with just as much "pure scientific fact when its stated plainly and simply" to back they're argument....

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I guess they can be given brownie points for trying, true enough. The problem is their "facts" have a funny tendency to collapse in the face of sustained probing, in a fashion not found in tenable scientific theories.

Why do you think they've been down to "intelligent design" for a while now ? 'Cause everything else they've tried has already been debunked, and that one holds for the time being mainly on obstinancy as well.

The Genesis just sort of lacks street cred when pitted against carbon dating so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I guess they can be given brownie points for trying, true enough. The problem is their "facts" have a funny tendency to collapse in the face of sustained probing, in a fashion not found in tenable scientific theories.

Why do you think they've been down to "intelligent design" for a while now ? 'Cause everything else they've tried has already been debunked, and that one holds for the time being mainly on obstinancy as well.

The Genesis just sort of lacks street cred when pitted against carbon dating so to speak.

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im sure they would say the same about opposing facts,

i never believe science, because just like religion (including genesis) all facts can be interpreted and even manipulated --> :2thumbsup:

I believe in the computer I'm typing this with, though. It's applied science.

Let's see applied faith pull off with any meaningful degree of reliability the same stuff it can do.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:
Antiochus
That is because he will not say which denomination he folows , neither will he say which version of the Bible he believes is the one true literal word of god (thats why I am tending towards option B in the poll)

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You might find a link to his denomination at the following site.

http://www.creationism.org/topbar/li...ionIntl_CANADA

I do not follow any denomination. Jesus said that Christians are supposed to be of one mind and have no division of thought among them, and that one mind is to believe in him and everything stated in the Bible. Denominations run contrary to that.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Nearly every museum in the U.S. If you can't find one of those, you should really stay in doors.

Umm, he doesn't live in the US, and we'll set aside the "should really stay in doors" personal attack for now.



Dude,Bwaha-ha-ha-ha! (ahem), to continue
there is a difference between discussing and insulting religion. If I said half the things about mulsims that these people say about Christians, every muslim on this board would be rightly offended. Even if I said something both true and objective, such as islam is a religion of war, or the islamic religion is anti-female (Not that islamic people are, but that the religion is), I would probably be banned.(you just did; are you banned?)

They (who? Islamic people (your last subject & object) or Org posters?) can discuss their opinions of religion without throwing out slurs and jabs and insult about God, Christianity, and Christians. (In case you couldn't figure it out,(No argument there, I am kinda slow...)

all the insults, slander, and false accusations people on this board have said about Christian(s), they have said about me and other board members.) Again, think of it in a way that your politically correct little head(size 10 hat, thanks) may understand(I hope so): If I said that all muslims were stone age, wife beating, murderous, sadistic perverts (all things said about christians on this board)(show me such a post, I'll kill it) I'd be banned. I find it VERY insulting and VERY offending when people say those things about Christianity.(show me) (Tell me, what would you do if I said all evolutionists were stupid cavemen?)(laugh, honestly)

These people are mature and should be able to discuss religion; but should be made (by moderator's?) to do so in a mature way, not like a bunch of little schoolgirls.(:snort:)

I like the backroom and would like to continue here,(good to read; if you change your mind, we can accomodate that also) but I find people's attitude and actions (and the moderators job of moderating) quite appalling.(so you're SURE you want to stay in such an appalling place?)



I assure you, you know a LOT less about christianity than you suppose. (that assuration is unsupported. Please lay out your proof for that assertion of christian ignorance; on a personal note: I'm thrilled, THRILLED, mind you that I finally have another NT scholar to consult. First question: Do you think the Leviticus Prohibitions are superceded by the Nazarene's Beatitudes? I do. Or are you a rescisionist, instead? )

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Dude, you crack this appallingly PC pinheaded mod up. Doesn't happen everyday.

+1 acumen. :bow:

p.s. To my mod collegues: I must recuse myself from judgment in this thread, since I got personally involved (somehow). I'll stay out to avoid flame-fuellage. My apologies. :bow:

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Dude, you crack this appallingly PC pinheaded mod up. Doesn't happen everyday.

+1 acumen. :bow:

p.s. To my mod collegues: I must recuse myself from judgment in this thread, since I got personally involved (somehow). I'll stay out to avoid flame-fuellage. My apologies. :bow:

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Well KukriKhan if you have a head that must wear asize 10 hat could you please teleport my mail to me, and insure that my check from Ed for $1 million arrives on time. Thanks in advance, but then you probably already knew that given the nature of your ESP.:clown:

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I am not insulting the religion, I am making a statement of fact, and one I am qualified to make. If anyone here has read the koran and would like to discuss it with me, start a new thread - I am completely willing to hold what I said and defend it.
?

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[emphasis Yunus]

erm learning to spell it would be a start :yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

In Arabic grammar, the word "Qur'ān" (not Koran) constitutes a masdar (verbal noun) and is derived from the Arabic verb قرأ qara'a ("to read" or "to recite") which is the root
:book:
Im sure Christians wouldnt like it if I refered to the Biabal.

as you say a topic for another thread


Topic: this whole poo fight appears to me to have evolved due to the confrontational manner this thread was started

had it been Christians "Got museum?" :2thumbsup:

Im sure it would not have been attacked or should I say counter attacked by the science club - instead the OP chose a more confrontational approach ala

Now we got a museum we can enlighten mankind that evolution is BS - in your face DARWIN :thumbsdown:

which is always going to agitate a percentage of the members

:clown:

[edit] GAH speeling

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Originally Posted by Yunus Dogus

[emphasis Yunus]

erm learning to spell it would be a start :yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

In Arabic grammar, the word "Qur'ān" (not Koran) constitutes a masdar (verbal noun) and is derived from the Arabic verb قرأ qara'a ("to read" or "to recite") which is the root
:book:
Im sure Christians wouldnt like it if I refered to the Biabal.

as you say a topic for another thread


Topic: this whole poo fight appears to me to have evolved due to the confrontational manner this thread was started

had it been Christians "Got museum?" :2thumbsup:

Im sure it would not have been attacked or should I say counter attacked by the science club - instead the OP chose a more confrontational approach ala

Now we got a museum we can enlighten mankind that evolution is BS - in your face DARWIN :thumbsdown:

which is always going to agitate a percentage of the members

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Might wanna quote from a credible source of information when attempting to prove someone else incorrect, which Wikpedia most definitely is not.

Sure I made a position clear with this thread title and the original post, but I see that done on this board all the time by people on the opposite side of the fence. Many people on this board were inevitabley going to call creationism BS in this thread regardless of the thread title or content of the original post. If I'm the one making the thread, might as well be pro-active with the same style that will be forthcoming in it from opposition posts. Evolutionists making threads in support of their beliefs certainly do.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Might wanna quote from a credible source of information when attempting to prove someone else incorrect, which Wikpedia most definitely is not.

Sure I made a position clear with this thread title and the original post, but I see that done on this board all the time by people on the opposite side of the fence. Many people on this board were inevitabley going to call creationism BS in this thread regardless of the thread title or content of the original post. If I'm the one making the thread, might as well be pro-active with the same style that will be forthcoming in it from opposition posts. Evolutionists making threads in support of their beliefs certainly do.

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Are you attempting to justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior? Isn't that rather un-christian of you?

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Are you attempting to justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior? Isn't that rather un-christian of you?

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Don't agree with that characterization. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

The Genesis just sort of lacks street cred when pitted against carbon dating so to speak.

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In my view this post is highly absurd. Carbon dating has been debunked as being wildly inaccurate and the "results" of it therefore are based on wild speculation about a wildly inaccurate method. Definitely little to no credibility in carbon dating.