Do you think Scotland will secede?

So, am I going to have to buy a new map now?

No. It is unlikely that the SNP will form a succesful coalition that would go for the referendum on independence. They would need to form an SNP-Lib-Greens coalition, and Lib Dems have categorically said that they shan't form an executive with a party which would break up the Union.
However, the Conservative and Unionist Party has said it shan't form a coalition at all, and the Lib-Lab grouping does not have enough seats to form again. They would need to form with the Greens.

So unless one of the above parties changes their tune, it could be a while until we see who has actually won.

Just heard the news.

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Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm

Lib Dems have categorically said that they shan't form an executive with a party which would break up the Union.

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I can still see the Lib Dems reversing on their coalition stance. Apparently Nicol
Stephen's sent mixed signals over it, [I haven't seen it myself, though even your
glorious leader seemed to think beforehand that he wouldn't hesitate to jump
into bed with Salmond.] whereas south of the border Menzies is totally against.

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

I don't understand where the idea of English oppression comes from.

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Who is talking about oppression? Why do we need this recurring rant when we're
not talking about oppression?

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So, tell me, how does this work.

If Scotland passes a law, but there is a British law that supercedes it, does the British law prevail?

Maybe you should just adopt federalism in the UK and join us colonists

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Westminster delegated a large area of legislative competence to Holyrood. If Holyrood legislates outside its delegated authority that legislation would be void. Also, in theory, westminster can undelegate if it wishes.

In practice in time conventions grow up and you find the situation is more...interesting. Political power may or may not come from the barrel of a gun, but it doesn't have to come from a law, either.

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I can still see the Lib Dems reversing on their coalition stance.

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Entirely. Give them a sniff of power and the lying ***** will agree to anything.

Nice to see Sheridan out, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Agent Smith

I thought Scotland became overpopulated when the blamanges from the planet Skyron in the galaxy Andromeda turned everyone in England into Scotsmen so they could win Wimbledon?

Kidding aside, this kind of news never ceases to amaze me. I try to keep up as best as I can on international news, but this is the first I've ever heard of this issue. I grow so tired of the news and media over here in the United States. Instead, you get top headlines on CNN like "Cop roughs up woman racing to dad in hospital," and "Hasselhoff: I have learned from drunk video." Maybe its because the US is so isolated from the rest of the world and only really borders two other countries, but I grow tired of our major news being dominated by Hollywood and meaningless drivel.

As for the Scots independence, I can somewhat understand. My grandmother is a direct decendent of a British family, who was given land in Virginia for military service in the colonies, and one of her relatives was a Civil War soldier named Robert Gaines Haile, Jr. He kept a diary and wrote home frequently during the war, and he actually has the only written account of certain events (he personally led Robert E. Lee's wife across the Chickahominy River from Federal lines, for instance). Anyway, the point is that he talked a lot about his reasons for fighting, and the over-arching theme is a right to self-governance, one which he thought would be taken away under Federal rule. Nationalism is really an offshoot of that personal freedom that individuals seek.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in Civil War stuff, all of his writings were compiled in a book that you can buy. It's called "Tell the Children I'll be Home When the Peaches Get Ripe." It's a really interesting look into the life of a soldier during the War.

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The example of R G Haile is an interesting one. Although there were legal, political and financial causes to the Civil War, the psychological causes were all based on mutual dislike and distrust, similar to the anti-English feeling North of the border. Actually North of the border may be inaccurate because the Scots who live in England seem to be more anti-English than those who live at "home". He felt he was doing his patriotic duty in opposing the north, and whilst losing the Civil war was bad for the South, winning it would have been a disaster. The confederacy would have continued (for a while at least) as and agrarian economy whilst the Federal states would have rushed ahead into industrialisation. Worst case would the Federal states now arguing for a huge fence along the Mason-Dixon line rather than the Rio Grande to keep out the inhabitants of their less developed Southern neighbour.

If he really wanted to keep his homeland free and prosperous his best bet would have been to join McClellan's forces and help his wife across the river instead. (Mind you Robert E Lee was a much better general to follow).

Both halves of the US are stronger because they remained together. Perhaps Alex Salmond should reflect on this before he starts to stir up trouble in the UK.

Incidentally US nationalism may spring from the desire for personal freedom but that is to do with US history. In other nations nationalism can be used as a screen to remove personal freedom.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Entirely. Give them a sniff of power and the lying ***** will agree to anything.

Nice to see Sheridan out, anyway.

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That appears to be the view about the Lib Dems amongst Labour faithful here, I
just wonder if their party will attempt to convince the Liberals now that they
find themselves in this situation.

About Sheridan, though: you say that simply out of disdain, or? If Sheridan and
the other small parties had received the share of the vote that used to be theirs
the situation would clearly be different. Fox and Sheridan have only succeeded
in handing most of the Socialist vote to the Nationalists.

Fresh from the BBC, the SNP

I don't know if this means anything or not.
Meh.

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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester

The example of R G Haile is an interesting one. Although there were legal, political and financial causes to the Civil War, the psychological causes were all based on mutual dislike and distrust, similar to the anti-English feeling North of the border. Actually North of the border may be inaccurate because the Scots who live in England seem to be more anti-English than those who live at "home". He felt he was doing his patriotic duty in opposing the north, and whilst losing the Civil war was bad for the South, winning it would have been a disaster. The confederacy would have continued (for a while at least) as and agrarian economy whilst the Federal states would have rushed ahead into industrialisation. Worst case would the Federal states now arguing for a huge fence along the Mason-Dixon line rather than the Rio Grande to keep out the inhabitants of their less developed Southern neighbour.

If he really wanted to keep his homeland free and prosperous his best bet would have been to join McClellan's forces and help his wife across the river instead. (Mind you Robert E Lee was a much better general to follow).

Both halves of the US are stronger because they remained together. Perhaps Alex Salmond should reflect on this before he starts to stir up trouble in the UK.

Incidentally US nationalism may spring from the desire for personal freedom but that is to do with US history. In other nations nationalism can be used as a screen to remove personal freedom.

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Trust me, I'm very glad that federalism won the day in the end. A confederacy would've never lasted, and you'd very well probably see many of the current states as independent and fighting with each other. In fact, early on there were large problems with economic protectionism in the States that the Federal government tried it's hardest to squash.

That being said, I see where you're coming from about nationalism. The same thing happens here, too. However, I guess it is hard to compare since American nationalism has undergone a fundamental change in the last century. Up until after the Civil War, there was a lot of sentiment towards one's home state. Now, the States have really faded away (which I see as problematic). America is an ideal, not a culture or true "nation." And that makes it diffuclt for people like me who can actually trace his history back fairly accurately, because there really is something deep down that yearns for a nation to be a part of. It's hard to embrace just being an American, since being an American is basically meaningless because, quite frankly, anyone can be one.

Anyway, ranting aside, you need to stay very proud of your heritage and NEVER lose it, but I guess you should never let it cloud your judgment. I can definately sympathize with the Scots who feel like they are losing their identity, though.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Westminster delegated a large area of legislative competence to Holyrood. If Holyrood legislates outside its delegated authority that legislation would be void. Also, in theory, westminster can undelegate if it wishes.

In practice in time conventions grow up and you find the situation is more...interesting. Political power may or may not come from the barrel of a gun, but it doesn't have to come from a law, either.

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So, the Scottish parliament was basically given certain jurisdictional rights, but those rights can be taken away at any point by the British Parliament. That's actually very close to the US judicial system (although I know it's not a legislative body). Other than the Supreme Court, Congress can give and take away jurisdictional authority from the courts and can also create/disband them under the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Agent Smith

So, the Scottish parliament was basically given certain jurisdictional rights, but those rights can be taken away at any point by the British Parliament. That's actually very close to the US judicial system (although I know it's not a legislative body). Other than the Supreme Court, Congress can give and take away jurisdictional authority from the courts and can also create/disband them under the Constitution.

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I believe that there is as much chance of the rights of the Scottish Parliament being revoked as there is of the Canada Act 1982 being revoked...

No. The Brits will offer them lands in Iraq if they fight there, and the Scotts as always will run to the get the lands. Like they did in Ireland, etc.
:balloon2: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm

I believe that there is as much chance of the rights of the Scottish Parliament being revoked as there is of the Canada Act 1982 being revoked...

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So long as it is Scottish money which is pissed against the wall carefully spent on and by the Scottish Parliament then I don't mind.

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About Sheridan, though: you say that simply out of disdain, or?

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I'm no fan in general, but there was a specific issue, his blatantly dishonest attempt to use the shooting of Andrew Morton to argue for a ban on all air guns. I'm opposed to any further gun control in the UK.

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I believe that there is as much chance of the rights of the Scottish Parliament being revoked as there is of the Canada Act 1982 being revoked...

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Exactly so. In strict constitutional theory, it could be done, but there is a basic assymmetry here. Its one thing for a parliament that legislates for the whole of a territory to pass some of its powers to a body concerned with part of that territory. That is clearly something it can do on its own. Its another thing to get the powers back. Without either a resolution from the Scottish parliament (politicians voting themselves out of a job: unlikely) or some other indication that a return to westminster was the will of Scotland, (again, surely most unlikely) Holyrood is here to stay. That is so now, and the position only becomes more entrenched with time.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

I'm no fan in general, but there was a specific issue, his blatantly dishonest attempt to use the shooting of Andrew Morton to argue for a ban on all air guns. I'm opposed to any further gun control in the UK.

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I quite admire Tommy Sheridan. His oratory prowess in the Scottish Parliament and the Court of Session was quite marvellous, to such an extent that he convinced the Lords of Session he wasn't up to any funny business. His polices, yes, are balls. But the man was quite a character in the Parliament.

As for the matter of gun control, I also hate it. I remember walking through the City Centre with my air rifle hung at shoulder, ah, happy days...
But that ill-advised knee-jerk reaction is all too common in Scotland -- after Dunblane and after the airgun shooting.
The City of Aberdeen has banned airguns, or at least require some worthwhile reason for them to be sold. The City of Edinburgh is, I believe, also going about the same thing.

Do you think Scotland will secede?

God I hope so. I'm so sick of listening to the anti English comments they continually spout, 300 years later and they still go on about Culloden.

What they never mention is that more Scots fought on the English side than the Scottish and the parliament commander was Hanoverian and not even English. All this coupled to the fact that Bonnie Prince Charlie was French, could barely speak english, hated Scotland and was a coward is hardly Englands fault Scotland lost.

Scotland doesn't have the guts to independent. It's alot easier to whine and blame the English for all their problems while quietly reaping the financial rewards and handouts we give. If you had a family member who acted like Scotland does to England you'd disown them.

Believe me when I say that the English are happy for them to stay in the UK, but wouldn't really care if they left.

Welcome to the Backroom, Nem. ~:wave:

You'll find that posters express strong opinions on a range of sensitive subjects, not least on national issues. It's important in these cases to be careful of offending through generalisation, which is why we try and discourage country bashing.

I'm sure that you will agree that not all Scots fit the characterisation you put forward.

Thx for the welcome Banquo,

Of course, I don't think all Scots hold anti English sentiments and the majority that i've personally met have been very amiable. I'm just fed up with the whining that comes from north of the border and the importance they seem to think the English hold for the Union.

WE DON'T CARE

Scotland is the worst small country!

Well so says the FSB:

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Scotland is the worst performing small country in Western Europe, according to a report by business leaders.
The Federation of Small Businesses' annual Index of Wealth compared 10 countries on economic performance, employment rates, health and education.

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Who are these treacherous chaps who say he People's Glorious Republic of Scotland isn't the best small country in the world?
Who said the Glorious Executive's mighty Propaganda Machine never worked, eh?
No doubt the new "Government" will use this as proof how bad the Glorious Executive was...

I'm a memeber of the FSB and they are an apolitical organisation. Put it this way, I would believe anything the FSB said over any political party.

Just face it guys, Scotland needs the English to stay afloat.

No no no, Scotland is the worst small country BECAUSE of England.

If she was independent everything would be great and she would rocket up to be the best small country in the whole world ever. Just ask Alex Salmond. Only, just don't ask him how or why.

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Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm

Who are these treacherous chaps who say he People's Glorious Republic of Scotland isn't the best small country in the world?
Who said the Glorious Executive's mighty Propaganda Machine never worked, eh?
No doubt the new "Government" will use this as proof how bad the Glorious Executive was...

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I first came across this claim at the airport recently and was quite amused.
Everyone knows Slovenia is the best country in the world, really.
:slovenia:

[Excellent to see Nem come out with some more pointless whining, though.
Give the man a drink.]

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Originally Posted by rdeče.jabolko

Everyone knows Slovenia is the best country in the world, really.

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Oh, gimme a break. You guys don't even compare to the magnificence of San Marino. :balloon:

So is Scotland going to secede or not? Or are you going to wait for Braveheart 2 before you throw the hat into the ring?

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Originally Posted by Nem

Do you think Scotland will secede?

God I hope so. I'm so sick of listening to the anti English comments they continually spout, 300 years later and they still go on about Culloden.

What they never mention is that more Scots fought on the English side than the Scottish and the parliament commander was Hanoverian and not even English. All this coupled to the fact that Bonnie Prince Charlie was French, could barely speak english, hated Scotland and was a coward is hardly Englands fault Scotland lost.

Scotland doesn't have the guts to independent. It's alot easier to whine and blame the English for all their problems while quietly reaping the financial rewards and handouts we give. If you had a family member who acted like Scotland does to England you'd disown them.

Believe me when I say that the English are happy for them to stay in the UK, but wouldn't really care if they left.

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England wouldnt care if they lost the oil and gas reserves of the north sea - yeh right whatever dude

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Oh, gimme a break. You guys don't even compare to the magnificence of San Marino. :balloon:

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Zounds, you might just be right- but wait, no, how can San Marino be the best
[small] country in the world when it does not have a poultry shape?

Observe, and let all doubt disappear:

https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/...o/557ab9bd.jpg
https://i173.photobucket.com/albums/...o/2787d580.jpg

[You realise I am obliged to raise such questions in protest at the mention of
that film.]

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Originally Posted by rdeče.jabolko

Observe, and let all doubt disappear:

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*amazed* :laugh4:

Now Slovenia is my favorite [small] awesome country next to the Empire of Andorra. Scotland cannot compare: I don't even know what shape that peninsular is supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by rdeče.jabolko

[You realise I am obliged to raise such questions in protest at the mention of
that film.]

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Oh, but it is a great movie. I mean, Mel Gibson screaming "FREEEEEEDOOMMM!!!!" ? That's the next best thing after Samuel L. Jackson's antics.