Hi all (MP chat)

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I'm surprised at this anger

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I couldn't care less about this matter in a sense - much less feel angry about it. TW MP is a hobby for me.

"It does it" for me since i do not wish to play with and against someone that systematically chooses opponents and allies for his own agenda no matter what that agenda is. I never did so and one of the things that made the sessions so much fun is that nobody else did as well to the best of my knowledge - much less come out and say it loud and clear.

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I play to have fun while forwarding my skill development as a team player with focus and energy. You have "heard" what you have wanted to hear in what I wrote.

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Did i really? - i'll repeat your words:

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Some players aren't here for fun alone. I come to have fun, but I have an agenda--to develop my SW MP tactical skills (teaming)--and to do that as rapidly as I can.

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Everyone tries to improve their play - i hope you don't think you are the only one - but i doubt that they come up saying that they have an "agenda" of doing so and "as rapidly" as they can, by selectively choosing who to ally and who to play against, most of the time.

I'm afraid that it sounds very clear to be misunderstood.

On the battlefield please :bow:

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Originally Posted by Noir

... "It does it" for me since i do not wish to play with and against someone that systematically chooses opponents and allies for his own agenda no matter what that agenda is. I never did so and one of the things that made the sessions so much fun is that nobody else did as well to the best of my knowledge - much less come out and say it loud and clear.

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That's your choice. I think it's silly. Everyone who has ever played TW MP makes choices of who to team with in every game.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Everyone tries to improve their play - i hope you don't think you are the only one - but i doubt that they come up saying that they have an "agenda" of doing so and "as rapidly" as they can, by selectively choosing who to ally and who to play against, most of the time.

I'm afraid that it sounds very clear to be misunderstood.

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Here, you impute based on twisted interpretation again. I have no problem with the quote I made, and stand by it. Your interpretation however, I have issue with. "Most of the time?" I said no such thing.

Yes Tomisama, you are right. Feel free to PM me Noir, if you have more to say on this matter. Let's give the others a break.

Can we all just get along...:no:

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

On the battlefield please :bow:

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Everyone can Talk the Talk, But If you good enough, you can prove your words on the battlefield.


What Tomi Said :yes:


I leave it at that.


cya tomarrow :yes:

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Originally Posted by Noir

... "It does it" for me since i do not wish to play with and against someone that systematically chooses opponents and allies for his own agenda no matter what that agenda is. I never did so and one of the things that made the sessions so much fun is that nobody else did as well to the best of my knowledge - much less come out and say it loud and clear.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

That's your choice. I think it's silly. Everyone who has ever played TW MP makes choices of who to team with in every game.

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I'm very surprised which turn the discussion took.
I certainly do not need to remind anyone how fragile this little game community is that we have. When we started this it was the 4 Mizus + Tomi and whoever happened to drop in. We hardly got enough players to fill 3v3's, not to mention 4v4's. It was often the case that one of the regulars would step back and offer his spot in a game to someone who just arrived and hadn't played yet.
During these sittings it was always my impression that it's more important to give new/ infrequent players a chance to play rather than to assemble a winning team on one side. Meaning that we did not deliberately choose our allies. I think that by doing so we managed to attract new players who keep coming back. I doubt that would've been possible if we had teamed up differently.

So, I agree with Noir that we indeed did not choose our allies but accepted the spot offered by the game. (I think this holds true for the most part even if one player has chosen to change to the attackers/ defenders).
So I think it's not true that "Everyone who has ever played TW MP makes choices of who to team with in every game". (Of course I could be so naive that I didn't recognize it happen. )
I think Masamune's agenda to improve his skills is nothing extraordinary. We all have that goal in mind. I don't think anyone is 100% satisfied with his play, there's always room for improvement. I think that the word agenda itself might have hit a nerve with Noir. It certainly didn't occur to me that we choose our allies and I was surprised to hear the charge at all.

I can't tell anybody what to do, which side of a battle to choose or how to play. I just think we can't afford to have some players choose the sides while the others accept the random slots. We all need to make sure that teams are balanced and fair. In my opinion we always did that but then again I haven't been there for all the time.
If a player is in a team with players whose play-style doesn't complement his own than it should be considered as a challenging opportunity to improve one's own play and that of the others by working on a plan that both can and want to follow.
There's also always the possibility of channeling the rivalry into battles.

I'd appreciate it if others could post their opinions, too.

R'as

P.S.: Masamune and Noir, I urge you both to solve your problem for the greater good. Personally I'd hate to loose either of you as players.

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During these sittings it was always my impression that it's more important to give new/ infrequent players a chance to play rather than to assemble a winning team on one side. Meaning that we did not deliberately choose our allies. I think that by doing so we managed to attract new players who keep coming back. I doubt that would've been possible if we had teamed up differently.

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That is indeed the case. I wish to thank all of the players that endured my nubiness and clumpsiness and by constant attention, encouragement and discussion and humour made me feel at home and want to improve for the sole purpose of playing more satisfying games, despite the fact that my inadequate/inexperienced play many times gave them a frustrating game especially at the beginning.

The sessions i have played with the group without a miss between April 2007 and July 2007 before retiring temporarily due to real life duties for about 2 months, were the best TW experiences i ever had.

I will remember and cherish all those games.

Thank you all.

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P.S.: Masamune and Noir, I urge you both to solve your problem for the greater good. Personally I'd hate to loose either of you as players.

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On a side note, may i ask that such (with all due respect) meaningless comments are avoided. Things are far more complicated than that.

I am 100% aware that your intention is perfectly good, however the point of view is totally false as you are "out" of the problem and for you Tomi or anyone else is easy to say "solve it" or "save it for then" or whatever.

"Urging" peope to solve things of this sort that are not of the leaders/organisers on behalf of the "greater good" makes no sense at all to me.

This is best dealt with in private and i would be obliged if we can all keep it that way from now on.

Thanks

Speaking to the rest of the group:

First, R'as, I'm sorry. I realize you are doing your job, and beyond that, you care a lot about SW and the group. Thanks.

Second, if someone has an issue with the way things fall out in game setup, say something. We can discuss it right there, decide as a group, and get to business.

Your observation about the interpretation of the word "agenda" is astute. I resent that I am portrayed as stacking odds "most" of the time. I've played many games with the "less experienced," and have done so without even thinking about it. My highest kill game was with Tomi and AsanoRin, defending against, CBR, Tosa, and R'as! Frankly, I'm hardly a player to make such a fuss over, lol. I've had a couple of good weekends. What goes up must come down. I've looked at the game data and replays for 9/2 and 9/16. I think this whole issue isn't really the issue....

The point made, that it's a challenge for experienced players to team with less experienced players successfully, is obvious. Equally obvious is that the opposite is true--less-experienced players do well to meet and overcome the challenges presented by facing a team of "experienced" players. I've played countless games facing a stack of very skilled clannies over the last four years in VI and STW. It's a fact of TW MP life, and SW MP is not bad at all compared to VI or what STW used to be like.

I see Tomisama quietly play many games each weekend. Among many other things, he is committed to improving his play, and has. He's ended up in difficult positions time and time again. I don't hear him complaining, despite a long and frustrating climb to his goals. I do see him practicing. He sets a fine example, focusing on what he can do to actualize his vision, instead of what others are doing that seemingly make it hard for him.

My "agenda" hasn't changed since I was with the Hunters; they've heard me on my pedestal, pitching focused, organized team-skill practice plenty of times before. My bottom line is: if I continue to play, I will continue to make every effort to further develop team role skills with team-focused players, who understand what that means and work diligently towards excellence. I've had it before, I want it again. If the game stagger permits when joining a game, I will gravitate to attack 3 times out of 5, and will allow myself to play with the players who best compliment my style of play when opportunity permits from time to time. There's nothing wrong with a clan wanting to play as a team sometimes, either. It's practice, which is key to developing skills and achieving goals. And how one practices is very, very important.

I'm chuckling, because I think the "powers that may or may not be" may be at work here. I should spend today preparing for an important interview I have this Wednesday. I am inclined at this point to bow out today, or come later, so AsanoRin will play, seeing as he has indicated that he will quit if I play. Really, I shouldn't let this stuff wreck my wa and potentially affect other important ... agendas, lol. It's too bad the wa here has been disturbed.

I am on MSN, undecided about today. It's time for the others to offer their points of view. I will make a decision on how to spend this afternoon based on what develops between now and then.

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seeing as he has indicated that he will quit if I play

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No i have made clear that i have quit SWs for the time being. Feel free to join without regrets. Good luck with your interview.

Noir

Thank you. It's not a man's place to tell another man what to do. But I hope you will reconsider. Peace.

And a great time was had by all (except for missing a few folks, both old and new, who were not able to make it).

Ten Samurai Warlords battled it out over approximately 5 hours, with heads taken in thousands on several occasions.

In one game alone CBR had racked up 1081 kills, and Fool topped that at 1117. The most interesting part was that they were on opposing teams :charge:

Good games and good fun everyone :beam:

Good games indeed.

Yea, sry about last game, accidently end task out when I was closing pop ups lol (had to alt ctrl delete so I could do so).

But Yes, Very good games indeed. Think I rack up over 2000 heads in my 3 games. :yes:

Yes another good Sunday. I tried to use team chat more last night in an attempt to improve the teamwork. I hope people dont feel I was bossing around too much with my sometimes very specific requests/orders heh


CBR

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Originally Posted by CBR

Yes another good Sunday. I tried to use team chat more last night in an attempt to improve the teamwork. I hope people dont feel I was bossing around too much with my sometimes very specific requests/orders heh

CBR

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Not at all. I for one thought it improved our play.
We almost had them, too, in that 4v4 with Jochi. If only you, Jochi and Tomi had gone for the hill instead of rushing to my aid, I think we would've won. Of course this insight was gained after watching the replay. I had a hunch during the game but couldn't communicate that fast enough. When Tosa and Masa came down the hill, they're all bunched up and on the other flank they hadn't any teppos left.
I was wondering during the game if what I do is any good for the team. Me, and Tomi did tie up (a chess expression, don't know the actual translation) a good portion of their army by threatening to flank. To actually risk that maneuver wasn't really an option, though. I'd have expected them to call the bluff.

R'as

Hey Tosa,

you think the xroads map would be a good team map? :laugh4:

(gg that game, can't believe I won it:yes: )

But No Sersiuoly, be somewhat challaging, but I think it would make it close team game.

If anyone never played on that xroads map, I think Puzz posted up a replay packages from yesterday, so check out the 1v1 replay if he has it up. :yes:

Glad to hear that the session was a success. I wish the best for the group and the sessions.

Noir

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Ten Samurai Warlords battled it out over approximately 5 hours, with heads taken in thousands on several occasions.

In one game alone CBR had racked up 1081 kills, and Fool topped that at 1117. The most interesting part was that they were on opposing teams :charge:

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Just as well they were not on the same team. :help:

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Originally Posted by CBR

Yes another good Sunday. I tried to use team chat more last night in an attempt to improve the teamwork. I hope people dont feel I was bossing around too much with my sometimes very specific requests/orders heh

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That is what made it so much more interesting. Not eveyone sees all the opportunities presented in the heat of battle. :whip:

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Originally Posted by R'has al Ghul

Not at all. I for one thought it improved our play.
We almost had them, too, in that 4v4 with Jochi. If only you, Jochi and Tomi had gone for the hill instead of rushing to my aid, I think we would've won.

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That game was a very close call R'has. Difficult to say which option was the best at the time. But still, a very enjoyable game. I find them more interesting when the end result is that close.

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Originally Posted by R'has al Ghul

I was wondering during the game if what I do is any good for the team.

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Of course it is. Each player plays his/her part in team games. Sometimes what we do as a team is good and sometimes not so good.

Looking forward to next Sunday's session.:beam:

What we faced in that battle was the usual "Attackers dilemma" To successfully attack it generally requires overpowering one of the two wings. And in that process attackers will extend more than the defenders. If not careful they risk running right into more defenders as the defenders in general are closer to each other and can assist faster.

I have only watched the replay once, but my impression was that you ended up sending your whole army in for no real reason. Now you might have spotted an opportunity, and you and Tomi did manage to rout several units and started to go up the hill, but then Warman and Yuuki assisted with several units.

If Jochi and I had gone in right away we might have had a chance but we had no way of knowing the scale of what was going on. And my main army was still in the back when it started IIRC.


In some 4v4's one army could easily be in a situation that involves more waiting than fighting. In that game I did request for Tomi to move closer to me and IIRC had just told him to start engaging Warman's guns. It seemed to me Tomi's focus was more on the right wing along side you than on the center to assist the left side push.

Overall we were doing ok on the left and had forced Yuuki to pull back. But I was never tempted into forcing the issue as I didnt feel we were strong enough with just two armies.

Now having Tomi closer to us would have meant you would have had to be more defensive, even pulling slightly back and to the left. Even if Masa and Tosa felt like attacking you they would have moved away from Warman and Yuuki. And Tomi would be nearby too. Your army would still have posed a threat to their flank if they give up the hill slope to assist a fight on the other wing.


CBR

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Originally Posted by CBR

What we faced in that battle was the usual "Attackers dilemma" To successfully attack it generally requires overpowering one of the two wings. And in that process attackers will extend more than the defenders. If not careful they risk running right into more defenders as the defenders in general are closer to each other and can assist faster.

I have only watched the replay once, but my impression was that you ended up sending your whole army in for no real reason. Now you might have spotted an opportunity, and you and Tomi did manage to rout several units and started to go up the hill, but then Warman and Yuuki assisted with several units.

If Jochi and I had gone in right away we might have had a chance but we had no way of knowing the scale of what was going on. And my main army was still in the back when it started IIRC.


In some 4v4's one army could easily be in a situation that involves more waiting than fighting. In that game I did request for Tomi to move closer to me and IIRC had just told him to start engaging Warman's guns. It seemed to me Tomi's focus was more on the right wing along side you than on the center to assist the left side push.

Overall we were doing ok on the left and had forced Yuuki to pull back. But I was never tempted into forcing the issue as I didnt feel we were strong enough with just two armies.

Now having Tomi closer to us would have meant you would have had to be more defensive, even pulling slightly back and to the left. Even if Masa and Tosa felt like attacking you they would have moved away from Warman and Yuuki. And Tomi would be nearby too. Your army would still have posed a threat to their flank if they give up the hill slope to assist a fight on the other wing.


CBR

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I was and am lucky my cav, some of them anyhow, didn't die in the fight when I rushed down that hill.That helped me take out Ras's guns (that was his guns I attacked right?don't remember).

I should have not went down that hill that fast. it would have been better if I waited, but I was to impatient, and was worried that Tosa and them would get flanked.

It was not too easy to judge the dynamics of that battle.

Ah yes I did plan to comment on that but forgot to add it.

Yeah I think it was a mistake too but OTOH my army was not deployed properly (I was still advancing wondering what to do) and I took more losses and time to deal with your units than I should have IMO.


CBR

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Originally Posted by CBR

Ah yes I did plan to comment on that but forgot to add it.

Yeah I think it was a mistake too but OTOH my army was not deployed properly (I was still advancing wondering what to do) and I took more losses and time to deal with your units than I should have IMO.


CBR

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Yea. I was to eager, but mabye that was a good thing, since I was able to catch you off guard, at the cost of my army though.


Like I said, I was lucky my Gen and some of my cav were over helping tosa and Puzz and them, because they wasn't at the forfront of my army, and they survived and help me get Ras's Gen dead and rout CBR's gen and take out Ras's guns. My Cav did rout on a few occsions, but fortuayl I was able to rally them.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Hey Tosa,

you think the xroads map would be a good team map? :laugh4:

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It's hard for teamgames as we are used to play them, but when players know the map and select armies that suit it, it will work.

Did you ever play Rugged?

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

It's hard for teamgames as we are used to play them, but when players know the map and select armies that suit it, it will work.

Did you ever play Rugged?

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Ok TOsa, lets do 1 Xroad team game next Sunday, I wanna see how it works out.
:beam:


No, never did rugged. Lets test that out 1v1 next week.:yes:

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Ok TOsa, lets do 1 Xroad team game next Sunday, I wanna see how it works out.
:beam:

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Sure. Perhaps people will give it a look in custom, so they know what to buy?

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No, never did rugged. Lets test that out 1v1 next week.:yes:

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Lots of guns, many spears, even more horses and victory is in danger.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Sure. Perhaps people will give it a look in custom, so they know what to buy?



Lots of guns, many spears, even more horses and victory is in danger.

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Tosa is always one step ahead of me! Yea, people can take a look at it at custom, and see if they wanna do it next week.

I'll take a look at Rugged at custom myself, and watch some replays also. Need my Pratice/map scouting.:yes:

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Originally Posted by CBR

I have only watched the replay once, but my impression was that you ended up sending your whole army in for no real reason. Now you might have spotted an opportunity, and you and Tomi did manage to rout several units and started to go up the hill, but then Warman and Yuuki assisted with several units.
If Jochi and I had gone in right away we might have had a chance but we had no way of knowing the scale of what was going on. And my main army was still in the back when it started IIRC.

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My remark wasn't meant as complaint, you couldn't have known what was going on on our side.
As it is so often it was a dynamic development. It started with a charge against Tosa's unprotected Teppos. I was willing to sacrifice a unit of HCav in exchange for 3 of Tosa's teppos. then Tomi sent a YariCav to help them out, then Masa send his YariCav, etc. Then Masa moved down the hill while Tomi and my units that we had had up front where withdrawn or destroyed. I then thought that because of the low number of enemy guns and the unfavourable position of their units that this would be an opportunity to engage. Tomi then joined in and it looked okay first but I didn't engage my infantry quickly enough and Tomi lost his general on the flank. I think it was the morale drop caused by the death that broke us.

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Originally Posted by CBR

In some 4v4's one army could easily be in a situation that involves more waiting than fighting. In that game I did request for Tomi to move closer to me and IIRC had just told him to start engaging Warman's guns. It seemed to me Tomi's focus was more on the right wing along side you than on the center to assist the left side push.

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I also encouraged him to move his infantry and just leave some cav but we're in a skirmish at that time and busy clicking. There were two situations when we're attacked and it was good that Tomi's cav was there.

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Originally Posted by CBR

Overall we were doing ok on the left and had forced Yuuki to pull back. But I was never tempted into forcing the issue as I didnt feel we were strong enough with just two armies.

Now having Tomi closer to us would have meant you would have had to be more defensive, even pulling slightly back and to the left. Even if Masa and Tosa felt like attacking you they would have moved away from Warman and Yuuki. And Tomi would be nearby too. Your army would still have posed a threat to their flank if they give up the hill slope to assist a fight on the other wing.


CBR

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True. I could've moved my army to the other hill/forest on the left.
We'll do better next time. Watching replays helps to understand the large battles' dynamics.

Good games, though not as many as we usually get in. It was nice to see a new face--thanks for coming, VDM_Alexandros. I was hoping for a third weekend with at least one game of 1200 or more kills, but I failed :cry: . This will probably bring my average kills over the last 18 games down below 800. Congrats to CBR on three out of four games with over 1000 kills, and to Fool's first breach of the 1000 mark that I've seen. CBR's average kills per game should be well above 800 now.

It sounds like some of what I wrote a few posts back was happening on more teams this weekend:

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... determine Command and intent, support it with skillful action, and adapt effectively to situations as they arise ... If not in Command and intent has been established, they execute ... They balance opportunity with risk, keeping the whole team and Victory in mind.

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Effective command (which implies team commitment to whomever commands) makes a big difference. The choices in balancing opportunities and risks made for some interesting turn-arounds. It seems players were actively communicating, listening, and cooperating.

I have an all-night work project this coming Sunday, and will not be able to attend the next session. I hope everyone has yet another good weekend.