Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only

While I can understand your logic, I must sadly inform you that you are wrong :P You buy the license to use the game, the physical disk and the box, not the game itself. I find this quite hard to explain in English, but all software you purchase is sold this way.

You are not allowed to edit, copy or anything else the game becouse you don't *own* "the game", you own the right to use it. Most people do not know/care (and therefore, most likely someone at the disk in a cd store doesn't know), but it significally reduces the things you're allowed to do with it.

Per ole, youre confusing copyright law with consumer law.

If you buy a book, you own that book. The publishers cant come and take it away from you, not even if they offer you your money back - you own that book - thats due to consumer law.

Youre still not entitled to make copies of it (barring exceptions e.g. for academic use etc) - thats due to copyright law.

The two things are entirely separate. Arguing that you dont own software because the license states that youre not allowed to copy it is meaningless. If youve paid outright for something, the owners are not entitled to take it away from you again. If they do so without your permission, it's theft. And youre still not allowed to copy the software (again with certain exceptions e.g. making a backup) regardless of whether you "own" it or not.

Licenses that say things like "you cannot re-sell this game" are on dubious legal ground in many countries (at least in europe - in the US consumers dont have as many rights). I'm waiting with interest for someone to test this in a court of law.

a book and software are two compleatly different things. It's a special case when it commes to software, and that's not becouse of the EULA (it just states it, but same laws would apply even if it wasn't there). It's quite simple, but as I said not many ppl know/care about it. You are not allowed to copy/edit (and a bunch of other things) becouse you don't *own the game*, you own a copy of it and the right to use it.

Let me give you an example. You can buy a screwdriver, and then it's *yours*. You can do whatever you'd like with the screwdriver. When you buy a game, the *copy* is yours, and you can do whatever you want with it. However, the software does not belong to you (program), it belongs to (in the case of mtw2) CA/Sega, so you're not allowed to edit/copy it (on the screwdriver you can do whatever you please).

See the difference?

Screwdrivers are not covered by copyright law. Books and CDs and software are.

The reason youre not allowed to copy software it is nothing to do with the EULA, its because of copyright law. Even if you dont agree to the EULA (both parties have to agree to a license for it to be legally binding) youre still not allowed to copy it. 10 years ago games didnt even come with EULAs - you still werent allowed to copy them.

Also, the EULA cannot remove certain legal rights from you, - these rights are defined by consumer law, and a EULA cannot overrrule them, any more than a EULA could state that "by clicking OK you agree that CA are allowed to come into your house and murder you in your sleep". Even if you click OK, CA are still not allowed to murder you in your sleep.

There is a LOT of stuff in these EULAs that is of questionable legal standing - (e.g. a company's right to withdraw a service that you have paid for, or your right to sell the software on to a third party) and so far none of it has been tested in court.


Edit - sorry misread some of your post, but will add this anyway:

The DMCA and the EUCD make certain things illegal, such as circumventing copy protection - however there is no law that prohibits you from altering software outside of that specific purpose. E.g. if i want to hack my copy of excel to make the add function perform subtraction instead i can do it quite legally. What I cant then do is distribute or sell modified copies of excel.

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Originally Posted by Per Ole

a book and software are two compleatly different things. It's a special case when it commes to software, and that's not becouse of the EULA (it just states it, but same laws would apply even if it wasn't there). It's quite simple, but as I said not many ppl know/care about it. You are not allowed to copy/edit (and a bunch of other things) becouse you don't *own the game*, you own a copy of it and the right to use it.

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They're not really that different. The only significant point is that a book is harder to copy due to the fact that it is not stored digitally. Copyright law applies just as much to photocopying a physical book as it does to pirating software. That in itself is not a major issue here. Copyright law is certainly incredibly out-dated and poorly designed to deal with digital media, but it's the actions of 2K and SecuROM themselves that are really in violation of the law here. The more appropriate analogy would be if Bloomsbury Publishing came to your house and repossessed your copy of Harry Potter after you had read it five times.

There is no doubt in my mind that 2K is in heavy violation of both contract and copyright laws on this matter, at least in the US. If I were them, I would be worried about a class action lawsuit.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

The more appropriate analogy would be if Bloomsbury Publishing came to your house and repossessed your copy of Harry Potter after you had read it five times.

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That's actually both correct and scary. We, as costumers, have somehow accepted that games/software isn't something we can share with others as we like. How would we react if book publishers tried the same thing, by saying that we can't lend a book to more than say 5 people? Would we ever accept such a thing? If not, then why have we accepted it for software?

The install limit is particularly scary, since the usual response with any kind of problem with the TW series has always been "re-install." Can't get the patch to work? Reinstall. Graphics issues? Reinstall. Instead of including a proper uninstaller that deletes registry entries, so that end users don't have to muck around in their registries in order to reinstall the game, apparently CA has taken the opposite tack and is making the problem worse by putting in entries that cannot be deleted.

I'm seriously considering cancelling my Kingdoms order. This is ugly.

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Originally Posted by gardibolt

The install limit is particularly scary, since the usual response with any kind of problem with the TW series has always been "re-install." Can't get the patch to work? Reinstall. Graphics issues? Reinstall. Instead of including a proper uninstaller that deletes registry entries, so that end users don't have to muck around in their registries in order to reinstall the game, apparently CA has taken the opposite tack and is making the problem worse by putting in entries that cannot be deleted.

I'm seriously considering cancelling my Kingdoms order. This is ugly.

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I want to make it clear that the installation limit discussion refers to Bioshock, NOT M2TW: Kingdoms. This discussion began because both use SecurROM, and it then jumped over the the additional problems that 2K are having with Bioshock. Please do not think that Kingdoms has any kind of installation limit because, as far as I am aware, it does not. It only runs the normal SecurROM copy protection software which, while many consider it bad, is nowhere near as horrible as what has happened with Bioshock.

mkay, that settles it for good.

*permanently crosses Kingdoms off the To-buy list*

I got screwed by Starforce once, not gonna let Securom do the same thing to me.

Guess it's the "fool me once...fool me twice..." thing.

It's not only this issue that has confirmed my not purchasing this expansion. Regardless of Sega or CA who are at fault, the end product is a mess IMO

........Orda

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Copyright law is certainly incredibly out-dated and poorly designed to deal with digital media, but it's the actions of 2K and SecuROM themselves that are really in violation of the law here. The more appropriate analogy would be if Bloomsbury Publishing came to your house and repossessed your copy of Harry Potter after you had read it five times.

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To complete that analogy, it would be like having the Harry Potter book delivered to your house by a guy who pounded a big nail into the wall of your library, and used it to attach a chain to the book. He says "I'll be back to repossess the book after you read it five times, and oh yeah... sorry about that hole in the wall, but I won't fix that. You'll just have to live with it."

The way CA is using SecureRom in Kingdoms isn't quite that bad, but they're still pounding that nail in the wall, and it stays there when you're finished reading the book.

Gosh! that was a long read i have just read the four pages in one go and i must admit that it was a bit scary :sweatdrop: until now i did not know anyhing about this topic and for gods sake i have already installed stalker, nwn2 and tiberium wars 3 without knowing anything about this programme and the thing is that i was not able to run firt two at all although my sytsem was suitable for handling it and i played tiberium war in uk and i tried to intall it to my pc in cyprus but the game just did not work. Do you know anything about this? sorry for getting of the topic but if see that i will have this kind of problem with kingdoms than i am not buying it although i was dying to play it.:thumbsdown:

Last time I discussed this here it was a bit of a brew-ha-ha between myself and a certain CA member that caused that interesting thread to be closed. Hopefully that wont happen again.

The other point on this issue that hasnt been discussed yet is "fair use".

Copyright law does not prevent me from photocopying a book I own, converting it to a PDF or to text, and reading or using it however I wish. So long as those copies are not distributed to others in any way, I've done nothing illegal. Every time an important "fair use" case has come up before the Supremes, it has been won by the consumer. Yet the gaming industry holds on to the idea they can decide what we can and cannot do with our copy of their software. IMO, they are terrified of the day when the case reaches the Supremes. Perhaps the Bioshock backlash will provide he impetous for change. There has to be a better way for the software industry to protect their investments.

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Originally Posted by The Turk

Gosh! that was a long read i have just read the four pages in one go and i must admit that it was a bit scary :sweatdrop: until now i did not know anyhing about this topic and for gods sake i have already installed stalker, nwn2 and tiberium wars 3 without knowing anything about this programme and the thing is that i was not able to run firt two at all although my sytsem was suitable for handling it and i played tiberium war in uk and i tried to intall it to my pc in cyprus but the game just did not work. Do you know anything about this? sorry for getting of the topic but if see that i will have this kind of problem with kingdoms than i am not buying it although i was dying to play it.:thumbsdown:

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Are you freaking kidding me, Stalker has it as well?!?!

I am against such things. I already have StarForce on my computer, but I do not think I will get this. I see a load of potential security breaks. I guess I will have to send it back to Amazon. Good thing I didn't open it.

Vuk

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Originally Posted by Didz

How was this a bad example. It was intended to illustrate that a contract cannot bind either party to comply with terms involving an illegal action, and you seem to have grasped this point very well.

The point being that any contract which requires the purchaser to accept that his system will hacked by the supplier is equally not binding because that too is an illegal act.

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Very bad example by the simple fact that it has never been established that the bundling of securom crapware in with games and its subsequent installation on gamers PC's is illegal. If anyone feels that it is then they can certainly test this theory with the courts if they so wish. Good luck!

@crpcarrot
Its not uncommon for contracts to contain waivers Edit - removed example. Not intended to suggest basic consumer rights can be waived but other rights. - He may be able to find a lawyer that may convince a court the contract isn't legally binding for whatever reason. The courts may rule in his favour and he will get back his deposit and maybe if hes really lucky a portion of his courts costs. Then the vendor will sue for full cost of purchase, damages and court costs and the buyer will ultimately be either bankrupt or pay several times more than the initial purchase cost.

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

Very bad example by the simple fact that it has never been established that the bundling of securom crapware in with games and its subsequent installation on gamers PC's is illegal. If anyone feels that it is then they can certainly test this theory with the courts if they so wish. Good luck!

@crpcarrot
By the way, a contract has precedence where your rights can be waived. If for example consumer laws state a land buyer has a 3 day cooling of period to allow the buyer to change his mind but a contract may also include a clause were the buyer waives his rights to this cooling off period. If he changes his mind tough titties. He may be able to find a lawyer that may convince a court his basic rights were denyed because he was drinking at the time or suchlike. The courts may rule in his favour and he will get back his deposit and maybe if hes really lucky a portion of his courts costs. Then the vendor will sue for full cost of purchase, damages and court costs and the buyer will ultimately be either bankrupt or pay several times more than the initial purchase cost.

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You have a point there, Neb. However, I think this discussion has transcended the legal aspects of installing Securom. I don't know whose bright idea it was, but whoever it is, they have pissed off a great many a customer. Now, instead of saving money on piracy prevention they will instead lose money on unbought copies of Kingdoms. I most certainly hope that einstein at Sega/CA/Wherever wakes up unemployed.

Just to add a little more which hopefully puts this thread back on track.

Why use Securom. I'll take a wild guess and that would be to stamp out the second hand game business eg ebay and hand-me-down (I finished with it so you can have it now) game business for nothing more than to sell more copies even at the expense of a few fans deserting or jumping ship. The PC game business is all about mega-profits and insta-sales with little or no regard to consumers, quality or service and the current trend is witness to this fact. Has anyone ever got anything better than an auto-response from customer service at CA, SEGA, huh?

No demo, how convenient is that. Smells a little like Bioshock by releasing a demo with the launch of the official game. So that securom issue isn't discovered prematurely and affect the all important sales? mmm?

Have mercy, its only an expansion. So what can we expect in Empires for Heavens sake? Let me guess, a two time install? Yes indeed! Thanks SEGA

and I have no doubt that they will scream how the whole industry is at risk because of piracy.

If all this is getting too much than don't buy Kingdoms or better still write to your local consumer & competition regulatory body with a complaint. Perhaps in the future we can see better government regulations governing this runaway industry that has more characteristics of a scam than it does of a business.

Well this certainly kicked off nicely :2thumbsup:

As TinCow states there are only some similarities with the secuROM version being used in Bioshock and the one being used on Kingdoms. Keep that in mind.

I'm pretty sure any company would have been told by their own lawyers that it has a substantial amount of risk attached to the strategy that believes they can install permanent files on a person’s private PC under the guise of purchasing an $80 piece of software.

Given the attempt at preventing...what ever they think they are preventing...has failed entirely (see any and all articles about the crack that happened within four days of release), all you have done has annoyed a whole boat load of people that are behaving correctly.

With regards to Bioshock's attempt then I'll summarise.

It's been ill conceived, poorly executed, badly communicated and has a real world impact on the enjoyment of the game and people ability to change basic hardware on their machine.

Guess what…I'd say the money they THOUGHT they were going to make due to this strategy has been ENTIRELY lost with the negative impact this has caused.

I love the phrase “opportunity cost” in economics and this is a classic example of the “opportunity cost” of what they have done.

The meeting goes like this:

Up steps the dude:

Money apparently saved due to the difficulty but not entirely preventable hacking of the machines….$400 000.

Money lost due to sales reductions and unplanned costs due to this being ill conceived, poorly executed, badly communicated and has a real world impact on the enjoyment of the game and people ability to change basic hardware on their machine…$800 000.

Total result…minus $400 000. Oh and I’ve not included the fee we paid Sony for implementing the secuROM solution.

As for someone commenting that corporate lawyers would be unlikely to attempt to have company policy conflict with law...boy I must be cynical, because that is just what I see everywhere and especially when it comes to the IT world and games.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

As for someone commenting that corporate lawyers would never attempt to have company policy conflict with law...boy I must be cynical, because that is just what I see everywhere and especially when it comes to the IT world and games.

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I never said NEVER. I said unlikely and that was in reference to Agreements, contracts, licenses etc. not policies. Who cares about policies?

But anyones interpretation of the law will always differ from others and at the end of the day the only one that matters is the one decided by the courts.

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

I never said NEVER. I said unlikely and that was in reference to Agreements, contracts, licenses etc. not policies. Who cares about policies?

But anyones interpretation of the law will always differ from others and at the end of the day the only one that matters is the one decided by the courts.

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Totally true and it's those "Licensing Agreement" we all check "I agree" to, that leave a lot to be desired when it come down to it.

I'll change my post from "never" then, because I'd also suggest that it is it more than likely these agreement are designed to protect the purchaser of the legal advise as far as they can get it. Whether it is tested in court is the only real test to thier "attempt" at protection.

This discussion has gone on for a good four pages (not including the locked thread) and Kingdoms has been released for a few days already, so can we please hear from Sega or CA on this issue? I know some representatives do visit this forum and post replies occasionally.

At the very least, an official confirmation is due to those who still have any doubts as to whether Securom v7 is used on Kingdoms. They and other prospective customers have a right to know this as it may well affect their decision to purchase the game. It isn't fair to have someone buy the game and unknowingly install some 3rd party malware they may come to regret later.

I also like to know if there are any plans for a patch release to remove Securom from my system. Many have taken a stand against the use of this intrusive copy protection and the reasons for this displeasure is clear. I believe many others are still sitting on the fence undecided on whether to purchase Kingdoms until they get an official response on this.

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

Last time I discussed this here it was a bit of a brew-ha-ha between myself and a certain CA member that caused that interesting thread to be closed.

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Really?
Certainly I'm sure with the relative popularity of the org this thread has caused 1 less copy or more of kingdoms to be sold (and rightly so). To the issue at hand... I don't think this stops pirating and it hurts consumers.
The need for a cd stops 11 year olds from lending it to their friends but adds nothing.

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Originally Posted by Per Ole

While I can understand your logic, I must sadly inform you that you are wrong :P You buy the license to use the game, the physical disk and the box, not the game itself. I find this quite hard to explain in English, but all software you purchase is sold this way.

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As Daveybaby has ably explained you are wrong. There are two seperate issues here Contract Law and Copyright Law and you cannot confuse the two.

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Originally Posted by Darkarbiter

Really?
Certainly I'm sure with the relative popularity of the org this thread has caused 1 less copy or more of kingdoms to be sold (and rightly so). To the issue at hand... I don't think this stops pirating and it hurts consumers.
The need for a cd stops 11 year olds from lending it to their friends but adds nothing.

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Really.

The discussion was about my "right" to make images of the games (for my own use). After it was implied I was a thief it got a "little heated" IIRC.

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Originally Posted by Didz

That might be true in your country, but in the UK the basic rule is that a consumer cannot waive their consumer rights (even if they want to) and any contract which attempts to force them into doing so is by implication illegal and not binding.

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I believe that is the case in Australia also.

does anyone know whether the other games using securom (apart from bioshock) doeslimit the installation times in any way or not i mean for god sake many of my favourite games seems to be using this thing and i didnt even know that, probably many of the probles i encounter with the game was because of this programme.

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Originally Posted by The Turk

does anyone know whether the other games using securom (apart from bioshock) doeslimit the installation times in any way or not i mean for god sake many of my favourite games seems to be using this thing and i didnt even know that, probably many of the probles i encounter with the game was because of this programme.

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I sincerely doubt it.

whatever

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

Australian law is much the same as UK as both are based on the westminster system. This is not illegal. In fact it is standard practice with many contracts.

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But that is the point I was trying to make Nebuchadnezzar.

Even though it is perhaps not illegal, any time I've seen these contracts attempt to infringe on consumer protection that don't stand up very well.

Especially when you can do the whole; "Big bad software company, against the poor young innocent consumer."