In God's Name

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certainly not inherited from God, because adam and eve werent evil to start off with.

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Then from where ? everything came from god didn't it .

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I'm gaining much skill.

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Not really yet , as I said earlier Well lets test your credibility as either .
and you stumbled at he first fence .
So cossack where does this evil come from ?
If it exists in creation and everything that is in creation came from god and adam is in the likeness (theological interpretation )of god then how can adam have not had part of that attribute incuded in his make up from the start ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

[speaking of evil]Then from where ? everything came from god didn't it .

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He has a point...

as a side note: still want me to talk to you about the bible?


no. adam had to eat the apple ok:yes: now he knows the difference ok:yes: likeness, as in image, as in how they would look like ok:yes: never said about qualities but if you want to interperet that way to suite your arguments.

very simple. Have you read anywhere, "adam/eve sinned" before the eating of the apples?

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as a side note: still want me to talk to you about the bible?

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Yeah that would be funny , I love reading stuff from people with little understanding of scripture .

Like this....

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likeness, as in image, as in how they would look like ok never said about qualities but if you want to interperet that way to suite your arguments.

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Oh poor Boyar those two words (image and likeness) have been an issue in Christianity (though you could explore the judaic angle too) since long before Augustine , there is lots of stuff on it and for a long long time now it has been in general consensus .
If you want to talk about the bible then please study it first .

Here go back to this line ....

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Image and Likeness , now you can go with the hebrew or you can go with the vulgate it makes no difference , what attributes do theologans include in the second word ?what are the essences of gods nature that are built in (in a serious christian understanding) to the nature of man taken (or given) from the creator ?

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...and try again .

I don’t like the latest development of this thread.

Tribesman has a point. If all there is comes from God, then it follows that evil, if there is such a notion in the universe, must also have its fountain at the hands of Him who created all.
To diverge from this, you must allow other eternal forces besides God. This will punch a great hole in the first cause argument.
Say that Satan or the embodiment of evil is such an eternal force, always in opposition with good; a necessity for balance between chaos and cosmos. One works towards no order, the other works towards order. Our universe is fine tuned and in a state of cosmos. Therefore you could say that the force of order and good is the strongest.

To the discussion of scripture: God created man in Gods own likeness.
This should mean that God looks like man. Usually we turn this around and say that man looks like God and it might well mean that He attributed many of His qualities to man, like speech, creative power etc.

It is interesting that Gods speaks when there is no one to speak to, and He does say: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The following statement is the creation of man after his own image both male and female.
Yeah the word is Elohim as different from Yahweh and it is plural: Gods. Go figure.

And there is no mention of apples… it only states fruit. I am not an apple fan and if a fruit is more exquisite than any other fruit, I am thinking of a fruit more like peach or nectarine. However, it doesn’t state the type.

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If all there is comes from God, then it follows that evil, if there is such a notion in the universe, must also have its fountain at the hands of Him who created all.

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Yep .

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Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

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Yep and the point is what is the long standing theological interpretation of that last word . it does have a meaning and interpretation doesn't it , that is why I asked.....Image and Likeness , now you can go with the hebrew or you can go with the vulgate it makes no difference , what attributes do theologans include in the second word ?what are the essences of gods nature that are built in (in a serious christian understanding) to the nature of man taken (or given) from the creator ? ....now you could always go for the cop out and claim that it is a superflous word added just to fill the page , but that doesn't sit very well does it .:eyebrows:
So a simple question isn't it , two words , both appear many times in scripture , are they both the same word with the same meaning or are they different words with different meanings (from a Christian or Jewish pespective) ?:book:

I'm no theologian, but I can't see any problem with the idea that God created evil. As the perfect, original being, He must have created all things. However, evil is surely a choice - it can exist as a concept but remain unexercised. If God's plan was to allow his creations to enjoy free will, they must have choices.

The Tree of Knowledge represented that choice. It was created, as was Lucifer - Lucifer being one of God's foremost angels (as I recall). Interestingly, he is the Light-Bringer - which might be argued to mean he also brought the "light" of choice, since he was the first to exercise his knowledge of his options (one assumes therefore that angels were created with this knowledge at the start).

He then took that choice to tempt the newly created humans, who bought it - as they were very clearly meant to do.

Just because God created evil, does not make Him evil - He simply never resorted to that choice. Jesus, born into a world of evil, also chose not to take that path. I imagine everyone born in His image also has the choice.

I would argue that if you deny that God created evil, one is actually denying the majesty of a perfect being who created that most precious of things, free will. Without evil and choice, surely we are all drones of dust?

We could continue to discuss this in a shroud of fog, but I am interested in hearing what Tribesman has come across on the subject of image and likeness.

I have discussed this before with believers and they disregard any notion that man is like God.
How can they be? God is an immaterial being without body, parts or material. How can man be like God, who is very much material with body and parts?

Well, if we are to take Genesis seriously, then God must be physical or have a physical appearance (likeness). I don’t know.. When it comes to the word image, to me it means exactly like something. If I were to make something in the image of an object, the new object becomes indistinguishable from the first. You cant’ tell the two apart. Of course it depends on the skill of the maker, but God is perfect in all ways and hence will make a perfect copy. I say Adam was the splitting image of God and I hope Eve was not.

If I apply what I know of this subject I recognise the distinct difference of the creation of man as compared with the creation of beasts, fowl and fish. When speaking of beasts He says: Let the earth bring forth… a physical origin.
Man’s origin is in the image and likeness of God, and Tribesman did hint at the Hebrew tradition. I am not sure what he is hinting at, I know that it is common in Hebrew to use these two words together to enforce the meaning that we are unlike animals. And this means that man does not only look like God, but have spiritually ability to understand His nature and learn to conform to it. In other words, God gave man abilities like unto God’s. Man can think, reason, make decisions and plan. He can originate and evaluate ideas and bring them to completion. Mankind can communicate and express complex concepts and be understood by other men. Mankind have an understanding of time and can mark its passage. This is not the end of it. Mankind can imagine and desire life after death. Man want to live forever but have no idea of how to attain it.

God created man in his own image and likeness and man inherits this creating power and makes further replicas of God like beings.

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:(Gen 5:3)

It is funny that every explanation of this event is based on the assumption that God did not really mean what is stated in Gen 1:26-27.

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Originally Posted by Boyar Son

"adam/eve sinned" before the eating of the apples?

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So God started with a little experiment of creating a good and pure man and woman and giving it free will. Then He created a tree with an apple that would poison the mind of man and woman (they become 'evil'). Of course they ate it and the rest is history.

So just this one apple at the very start of mankind made the difference between 4000 years of pure love and goodness and 4000 years of war, suffering and other evil sinful deeds? That is just evil!

Enough with the apples already :beam:

Banquo has described my view here very eloquently. I would like to add some additional thoughts though.

Who wrote Genesis, the text as we have it has either been pasted together or pasted back together from at least two versions as far as I know. Is the Bible a perfect representation of God's message? I would argue it was not.

If Adam was meant to eat of the fruit (I'm thinking pomigranites or peaches because of the association with female genitalia) then was Lucifer actually defying God? It seems that all proceeded exactly as He had forseen, so maybe Lucifer did not defy God, perhaps he is not evil but is meerly the avatar of evil used to tempt man away from God?

Hey Wigferth , take your Lucifer thing and apply it to Iscariot :idea2:

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We could continue to discuss this in a shroud of fog, but I am interested in hearing what Tribesman has come across on the subject of image and likeness.

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I hope you are not expecting a link ~;) (well at least not until Boyar attempts to approach the subject so I can see his efforts at theology)

Tribes comon now dont come with the 'invincible' talk


Now, you want a serious Christian understanding? we are created in Gods image. Primarily, man resembles God because of the dominion they have over the creatures of the earth (just as God does us).

Now, if you have read the bible you come across "the man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame". Obviously, they are oblivious(I stress that tribes, I really do) to knowledge (showing they have not eaten the apple of the tree of knowledge, which comes good and evil.

And what happens next, the serpent tricks eve to eat the apple and tells adam too. now, recognizing they are both naked they now have knowledge from the tree, knowledge of good and evil.

You keep saying that if man is like God and man is evil then God is evil. But you keep ignoring the point that man received that knowledge after Adam and Eve ate the apples, and if they already knew good and evil, they would've gotten some clothes before they ate the apples wouldnt they?

But I'm glad you came back from that period of absence before:crowngrin:

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Now, you want a serious Christian understanding?

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Well I was hoping you might be able to put forward an attempt ....

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we are created in Gods image. Primarily, man resembles God because of the dominion they have over the creatures of the earth (just as God does us).

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...but obviously the hope was wasted .

Is it worth repeating the question again ....Image and Likeness , now you can go with the hebrew or you can go with the vulgate it makes no difference , what attributes do theologans include in the second word ?what are the essences of gods nature that are built in (in a serious christian understanding) to the nature of man taken (or given) from the creator ?
or shall I just take it as read that you are clueless on the subject ?

Ah well, you obviously saw my point which proved the 'God must be part evil' wrong. But I'll answer anyway.

"what attributes do theologans include in the second word? ":

I'll tell you this word most certainly mean 'likeness' as image, thus how he would appear.

"what are the essences of gods nature that are built in (in a serious christian understanding) to the nature of man taken (or given) from the creator?":

Actually I answered this(but you didnt read it?): "Now, you want a serious Christian understanding? we are created in Gods image. Primarily, man resembles God because of the dominion they have over the creatures of the earth (just as God does us). "

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Ah well, you obviously saw my point which proved the 'God must be part evil' wrong.

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No you didn't prove any such thing .

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I'll tell you this word most certainly mean 'likeness' as image, thus how he would appear.

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Nope , not in the slightest , if that were the case it would read image image .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Hey Wigferth , take your Lucifer thing and apply it to Iscariot :idea2:

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Gospel of Judas? Why should I bother, it's been done.

Briefly however, I'm willing to buy into the version which says the whole thing with the olives was Jesus choosing the man appointed to deliberately betray him.

Just a thought, I would say God created choice and that led to the evil rather than directly creating the evil.

As in Lucifer chose then Eve chose then Adam chose.

Nowhere are Lucifer's motives elucidated, nor does it actually say whether Angels have free will or not.

Additionally, God cannot create something with an unforseen consequence, because he is all knowing.

Ah well Sigurd , since Boyars attempt was as expected back to your question .

You pretty much have it back in post #98 , what I wrote is (as is to be expected) slightly misleading , there is a general consensus amonst Christian theologians concerning image and likeness .
Over image it is an almost universal consensus .
Over likeness the consensus is that it isn't the same as image , the differences over likeness are about which attributes and to what scale for each attribute .

Well if you know what I'm going to say then dont bother reading

If you want to say 'likeness' of God you can say we have dominion over all the creatures of the earth just as God does us. We can make decisions, create etc.

But these are just things in common with God. You might as well say we are in likeness with every other being in the world (which we are), but these shouldnt determine whether we are the complete copy of another and mean we all act exactly the same.

Your view of man being 'just' like God is farfetched(SP?), a son can look like the father, talk like him, walk like him, but will never be him. No one can have an exact essance (look at you and your parents, theres always a difference). God said in my 'image' not another exact me.

I just thought that I might point out, even though I'm sure everyone's thought of it, that we can neither prove that God exists or that He doesn't - we can simply believe either way. That is all it boils down to. I believe in God, somebody else may not. I won't try to prove them wrong, because I can't. I can only believe. Likewise, they cannot prove me wrong.

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Your view of man being 'just' like God is farfetched(SP?),

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Errrrrrr....the question was .....Image and Likeness , now you can go with the hebrew or you can go with the vulgate it makes no difference , what attributes do theologans include in the second word ?what are the essences of gods nature that are built in (in a serious christian understanding) to the nature of man taken (or given) from the creator ?
.....so you are not calling my view farfetched you are calling Christian theologians views farfetched ....thats a bit of a bugger for you since you claim to be a Christian and would as such belong to a church that follows these views .

Hah hah hah! I haven't checked this thread for a while, but what a great one it is! :laugh4: It seems it is unnecessary for me to point out the obvious to BS since Tribesman has been busy with that part.

And now, since there is then reason to HATE or generally dislike God (due to His evil nature) why do most believers LOVE Him instead? Or praise Him? Or think that He is of good nature, that He might give them strength, and so on? HAH!!!! Is it fear? Is it a hardwired belief? Weakness? Yeah, something like that probably.

In any case, believers: check the facts already! ...or should I say logic? Your God -- IF He exists -- is an evil, possibly sadistic, being. I mean... how long has He been there already? Like what... forever? Don't you think that due to His ultimate superior and SUPREME power/ability He does not know what He is doing and what he HAS BEEN doing? He is God, for Christ's sake!

If God exists and has created all, then He is evil: end of this story.

Now, I shall take my leave and leave you all to discuss other.... "godly" matters :laugh4:

If you don't stop this hate mongering I'm going to complain.

Look, you don't get religion. Fine. You don't like it. Fine.

Why do you need to attack it.

Why do you hate a God you say does not exist?

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Originally Posted by Bijo

Hah hah hah! I haven't checked this thread for a while, but what a great one it is! :laugh4: It seems it is unnecessary for me to point out the obvious to BS since Tribesman has been busy with that part.

And now, since there is then reason to HATE or generally dislike God (due to His evil nature) why do most believers LOVE Him instead? Or praise Him? Or think that He is of good nature, that He might give them strength, and so on? HAH!!!! Is it fear? Is it a hardwired belief? Weakness? Yeah, something like that probably.

In any case, believers: check the facts already! ...or should I say logic? Your God -- IF He exists -- is an evil, possibly sadistic, being. I mean... how long has He been there already? Like what... forever? Don't you think that due to His ultimate superior and SUPREME power/ability He does not know what He is doing and what he HAS BEEN doing? He is God, for Christ's sake!

If God exists and has created all, then He is evil: end of this story.

Now, I shall take my leave and leave you all to discuss other.... "godly" matters :laugh4:

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Calm down, you lost. You say tribes is winning only because is arguing against me.

I told you my opinion on this, and just because you bring it up over and over means you didnt read my statements at all and are a pompous hateful man who will never understand anything but your own veiws.

I read what you said, and maybe God just doest give a damn about house cleaning. Who leaves it up to us, the main source of hate, to do something about it.

In a way we can change this, but instead we'll leave it up to God who 'just' because he can, will do it? How 'bout you do something instead of sitting on your sofa? will the world change? even for a little?

Bijo you know nothing of our religion, you and every other guy who insults it. Everyone here tried to prove he doesnt exist, but have they? or did they just leave? after the way you acted you dont dont have my respect at all.

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Originally Posted by Bijo

He is God, for Christ's sake!

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Irony so deep, one needs an oar - nay, a thousand-foot till to plumb its depths. Thank you Bijo. :bow:

May both the image and likeness of civility prevail here, henceforth.