Jailbreak in Gaza

It's a problem of indoctrination in both cases I think. I've seen this palestinian father inspiring hate in his kid by showing him how the bulldozers destroyed their house and telling his son to hate Israel for that and then we had this video here of Israelis kids throwing stones at palestinian schoolchildren while police only seemed to stop them from doing much worse.
Seems pretty obvious they both teach their kids from a young age who they have to hate and this way it is rather unlikely to end.
Have to say though if they like it that way, fine with me, they can both bomb eachother to hell and I'm only sorry for those who try to make peace but don't get anywhere among all those nutters. I'd say time to go elsewhere but I guess some can't get out of there easily or are hindered by irrational patriotism or whatever

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Originally Posted by Beirut

When Jewish terrorists who murdered Allied soldiers during WWII became Prime Ministers of Israel (who then complained that the Allies didn't do enough to save the Jews during WWII, figure that one out) they got an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments, unlimited UN support, as well as enough fighter planes, tanks, guns, and bombs to invade Russia twice over

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And how many PMs in the more recent past have done that? Not many - they've stopped. Imagine that. But I guess you need to look far back to impugn the Israeli leaders.

And how many billions have been given to the Palestinians over the years in 'aid' and form the UN?

And a big ole LOL at your 'Unlimited UN support'. Perhaps we're talking about different UNs - The one in my world constantly passes anti-Israel resolutions.

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blame for that can be put on both sides as they are both unwilling to be reasonable

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NO, it can be put on the Arafat and the other leaders who planned the second intifada before Sharon's visit to the Wailing Wall.

How in the world can you gain peace when one side wants war?

CR

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Originally Posted by Husar

Seems pretty obvious they both teach their kids from a young age who they have to hate and this way it is rather unlikely to end.

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Wasn't the same thing true for Northern Ireland though ?

Admittedly, I don't know the situation there now, but it seems to be going better than a decade or so ago, at least.

For the umpteenth time, Northern Ireland does not equate to the question of Israel/Palestine.

The IRA were not seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom and the extermination of all ethnic Englishmen worldwide. Hamas has publicly declared exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

For the umpteenth time, Northern Ireland does not equate to the question of Israel/Palestine.

The IRA were not seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom and the extermination of all ethnic Englishmen worldwide. Hamas has publicly declared exactly that.

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If you only looks at Northern Ireland you are missing the overarching point.

The IRA was seeking the destruction of ALL English occupation of their lands - much akin to the Palestinians.

It just happens that the entirety of Israel occupies their lands - hence the understandable difference.

Plus, the I.R.A. made quite a few attacks in Britain itself - Pubs, Harrods, government buildings, etc.

I see the two situations as very similar. Obviously there are differences of how they think they will do it based on culture, politics, time elapsed from the start of the affront etc- but the concept is the same

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

How in the world can you gain peace when one side wants war?

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Ya. Can't meet their demands because that whould be to stop existing. That isn't a very sound base for dialogue. But it isn't just the palestinians who want war for whatever reason seems to be pretty common, but Israel doesn't really desire peace as well because they are an army with a state.

Just as the IRA did not represent all of Irish Republicans, Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. The reason why the Northern Ireland situation is better is because something was actually done about. Diplomacy. It'll take a long time to heal entirely and there will be some that will never forget but it's now on it's way.

The Palestine issue is indeed different. The British mainland was attacked by IRA terrorists and British citizens and military personnel in Northern Ireland were also attacked. The difference is that the UK didn't simply send bombers over and flatten a few houses in residential areas in the hope of killing one or two ringleaders nor did they impose any kind of sanctions on republican areas. In fact if it had employed heavy handed and brutal Israeli style tactics against republicans it would have faced international condemnation, especially from the US. The question is: Why can Israel do this and seemingly get away with it?

Israel needs to start treating the Palestinians as human beings then maybe the Palestinians will start responding like human beings? If the Israelis are such a civilised people they should start behaving in a civilised manner. They should start behaving like real jews: Wise, friendly and peaceful people.

This is one fundamental some of you simply cannot grasp. Don't look at terrorism as the problem look at it as the symptom. If you chain, starve and beat the dog, eventually when you least expect it the dog will break free and recalling the misery you have caused it will wreak it's bloody revenge upon you. The dog will not sit down and think "master is beating me because I'm a bad dog and now that I'm free, I should realise that I'm bad and try to be a good dog".

Again terrorism isn't something that just happens because people come from a certain country or happen to have a certain religion, it occurs as a direct result of occupation, persecution, oppression etc. Iraq for example was terrorist free until the Americans and British arrived on the scene. Palestine had no terrorist problem until the founding of the state of Israel. A people that cannot hope to win an open war against an occupying force that has both military superiority and strong outside support will always turn to paramilitary operations. In this way you will find that Northern Ireland is the same as Palestine.

-Edit: And TuffStuffMcGruff is right.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

And how many PMs in the more recent past have done that? Not many - they've stopped. Imagine that. But I guess you need to look far back to impugn the Israeli leaders.

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Oh, I think a few of the more recent are impugnable as well. Mr. Olmert's savagery in Lebanon hasn't been forgotten. Canada certainly hasn't forgotten, Israeli forces killed a few of our civilians too. (Not to mention the murder of one of our UN Peacekeepers. But we're not supposed to talk about that. Shhh!) Hell, as far as I know, Israel has killed more Canadians than the Palestinians ever have (have they killed any?) but we still deal with them but not with the Palestinians. We must be as stupid as everyone else.

By the by, weren't the the terrorists who became Israeli leaders the same guys who, as Israeli PMs, helped apartheid South Africa develop nuclear weapons? Arafat would have to rise from the dead and destroy an entire universe of orphans and pregnant nuns to reach that level of egregious stupidity and callousness.

So we can deal with an Israeli government that was run by terrorists and helped the international version of the KKK get The Bomb, but we can't even talk to the Palestinians? We're supposed to let them starve and rot and die and until they bend to our awe we can't even talk to them?

It's insane!

There's a poem in this somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

And how many PMs in the more recent past have done that? Not many - they've stopped. Imagine that. But I guess you need to look far back to impugn the Israeli leaders.

And how many billions have been given to the Palestinians over the years in 'aid' and form the UN?

And a big ole LOL at your 'Unlimited UN support'. Perhaps we're talking about different UNs - The one in my world constantly passes anti-Israel resolutions.

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Lets see, I don't recall any anti-israel resolutions that actually passed in the last decade or two. Actually, I think they were all vetoed by Israel's big brother. There may have been the one or two oh-so-carefully-worded reprimands that didn't even read like one that managed to get passed the big brother.

As for Palestinians getting more aid, I think the didn't get all that much more aid than Israel got from outside the UN. All they are getting are funds, food and medication. Israel is getting weapons (including of mass destruction), technology, funds and western media support. And for the amount the Palestinians are getting in excess, you probably could understand it as they don't have any economy to speak of nor trade, both due to Israeli blockade and constant bombings to destroy infrastructure and kill or kidnap political leadership. In fact, most the aid has to go by Israel and quite a bit has been blocked and frozen. Israel on the other hand has a strong economy supported by the outside and no such blackades imposed on it. With most their citizens very well off economically, they wouldn't exactly be eligible for aid, eh?

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Originally Posted by CR

How in the world can you gain peace when one side wants war?

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I think the Israelis got rid of every of their PMs so far who openly wanted true peace, rather than a ceasefire with vast limitations imposed on their Palestinian prisoner ghetto. I think the reasoning was "not hardline enough" or negotiates with terrorists". Go figure. The Israeli gvt doesn't want peace on equal or near equal footing while the Palestinian gvt actually might. Of course neither side's military seemed to be under full control.

As for the general feeling that Palestinian militants are terrorists because they attack civilians, I will reiterate what I said in the past:
How likely is it for them to get close enough to an Israeli squad with their own limited and primitive weaponry and intelligence? I think they are more likely to get killed 9 out of 10 times trying that. So basically the only way for them to fight back is long range attacks (which with primitive weaponry obviously won't be accurate nor devastating) and bombings. I imagine they would rather target the Israeli army with them if they could, but point is they can't.
If you were to give the Palestinian militants the same technology and weaponry and training the Israeli military had, I doubt you would see them blowing up or shooting non combatants.

On another note, I fully agree with caravel's post. Well balanced and eloquent. :bow:

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Originally Posted by caravel

This is one fundamental some of you simply cannot grasp. Don't look at terrorism as the problem look at it as the symptom.

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No it's a method, and that could just be the problem.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No it's a method, and that could just be the problem.

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I don't hold to the organised terrorism theory where there is a centralised administration and several satellite operations controlling "cells". Experience shows that this is how it works on paper or when politicans want to push the terrorism issue to gain support for taking away even more of your civil liberties. In reality random small groups or individuals commit these acts and a larger group likes to claim responsibility to give the appearance of a centralised control. Suicide bombings are often individual acts or acts carried out by a very small group. There is usually no real plan or chain of command. If it were this organised Israeli intelligence would know their every move. The whole randomness and spontaneity of it is what makes it so difficult to stop.

Sorry, but wouldn't it be common sense for the Isreli's to look into it even closer then? No plan no command but these rockets keep landing what would you do. And why you even to do in the first place it isn't like they are lying about thier intentions they want to drive the jews into the sea. Now we all do from time to time but why should they accept it.

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If you were to give the Palestinian militants the same technology and weaponry and training the Israeli military had, I doubt you would see them blowing up or shooting non combatants.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Hamas could target the IDF, they could launch rockets at border checkpoints and army bases, they could send suicide bombers against border guards instead of weddings and restaurants. They can target the military, but they go for the civilians instead.

But they do not; their goal isn't 'resistance' it's extermination, as spelled out in their charter.

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Mr. Olmert's savagery in Lebanon hasn't been forgotten.

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You make it sound as though they waged war especially more cruelly than other nations. Funny how you are so quick to call a defensive action to stop daily barrages of rockets flying into their cities 'savagery'.

And enough, really, with the conspiracy talk about how we don't 'talk' with the Palestinians - the US has time and again tried to help the peace process by talking to both sides. Yet Arafat decided he wanted a second intifada. If Hamas actually made some steps towards peace - you know, stopping the rockets fired at Israeli cities, maybe change the fact that their charter calls for the destruction of Israel - they could get involved in diplomacy.

Bah. It's all 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' of Palestinians with their supporters. Amazing - Arafat started the second intifada when they were on the road to peace, Hamas wants to destroy Israel, but still the excuses flow forth. Amazing.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Hamas could target the IDF, they could launch rockets at border checkpoints and army bases, they could send suicide bombers against border guards instead of weddings and restaurants. They can target the military, but they go for the civilians instead.

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Of course. That explains why 99% of all those rockets don't actually hit anything . If they really were after extermination as you say and could target their rockets, then you certainly want to tell me why they don't manage to hit a critical target on a daily basis. Those that do hit something seem to at best cause minor injuries for the most part.

So what do you think would help them more, hitting the military bases so there are less Israeli soldiers killing them and less airplanes killing people on the street or hitting a house where maybe a few people live that have little power? I believe their strategy would likely be the former if they had the capability (which they don't)

Similarly, their bombers don't tend to get close enough to the military to inflict any casualties in general. The same way how Iraqi bombers don't get close enough to US patrols before being killed.

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The IRA were not seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom and the extermination of all ethnic Englishmen worldwide. Hamas has publicly declared exactly that.

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:wall:
How many times are you going to attempt repeating that Don ?
What is it now ? at least half a dozen times isn't it .
Do you want to go through it all again or are you going to remember that you are actually talking crap .
BTW the IRA/IRB were seeking the destruction of the United Kingdom ..... and they got it .:book:

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their goal isn't 'resistance' it's extermination, as spelled out in their charter.

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Oh look someone that hasn't read their charter , but thats OK , don't feel bad about it . Don has read it but still makes the same mistake .

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Funny how you are so quick to call a defensive action to stop daily barrages of rockets flying into their cities 'savagery'.

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Actually the period before the invasion was relatively quiet , no daily barrages or such like , perhaps you imagimned that part .
The "savagery" of the Israeli government was that despite being signatories to several treaties saying they wouldn't do nasty things they did nasty things .
The worst of which was declaring that no civilians existed . If you declare that no civilians exist in an area where you know they exist and also declare that you are going to eradicate all persons in the area then you have just done something that equates with the imaginary extermination clause in the Hamas charter...the difference being that the Hamas declaration is imaginary and the Israeli one was very real .

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

You make it sound as though they waged war especially more cruelly than other nations. Funny how you are so quick to call a defensive action to stop daily barrages of rockets flying into their cities 'savagery'.

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The savagery was the targeting of civilians and the wrecking of the country from north to south. Neither was required but both were exercised with great skill. The Israeli response to the rocket fire was not a series of precision strikes against military targets, but a scorched earth policy against an entire country and its civilian population.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

And enough, really, with the conspiracy talk about how we don't 'talk' with the Palestinians...

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It is a conspiracy. Israel has used every possible means for decades to dehumanize the Palestinians and to stop anyone from publicly supporting them. In Canada, our govenment is falling all over itself toeing the Israeli line, it's embarrassing. Hamas has been declared an illegal organization and you can be put in jail for supporting them. Over and over our government supports Israel at every turn and says that the Palestinians are persona non grata on the planet until Hamas is gone. I'm not saying that we have to like Hamas, but we sure as shoot have to talk to them.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Bah. It's all 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' of Palestinians with their supporters.

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Oh, I think there's enough of that mindset to go around for both sides.

To get back to the point, the reason the Palestinians had to blow up the wall and break into Egypt so they could buy food is precisely because everyone in the west is toeing the Isreali line and not helping the Palestinians. As for the other Arab countries and Iran, they should be ashamed. They have acted without conscience or feeling towards the Palestinians. Their behaviour is inexcusable.

Iran.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Of course. That explains why 99% of all those rockets don't actually hit anything . If they really were after extermination as you say and could target their rockets, then you certainly want to tell me why they don't manage to hit a critical target on a daily basis. Those that do hit something seem to at best cause minor injuries for the most part.

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That's because the rockets and their aiming skills are bad.

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So what do you think would help them more, hitting the military bases so there are less Israeli soldiers killing them and less airplanes killing people on the street or hitting a house where maybe a few people live that have little power? I believe their strategy would likely be the former if they had the capability (which they don't)

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They don't even target the military. Perhaps you should ask why they do aim for civilians instead of the military. You need to challenge your assumption they don't have the capability to target the military.

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Similarly, their bombers don't tend to get close enough to the military to inflict any casualties in general. The same way how Iraqi bombers don't get close enough to US patrols before being killed.

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Really? I do seem to recall suicide bombers being caught at the border and blowing themselves up, killing IDF soldiers. But the suicide bombers always try to get into Israel to kill civilians, which is harder than merely walking up to a border checkpoint and blowing one's self up when the soldiers check your papers.

EDIT:

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The Israeli response to the rocket fire was not a series of precision strikes against military targets, but a scorched earth policy against an entire country and its civilian population.

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*rolls eyes*
Hezbollah hid their rocket sites near schools and hospitals, just to give that impression.

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It is a conspiracy.

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Really? Cuz we always seem to talk with them for the road map to peace. You notice how people in the west bank aren't starving? Hamas, as has been said, is not all the Palestinians, and just because we do not talk to them doesn't mean we don't talk to Palestinians (like, oh, Fatah, aka Hamas lite). Funny you don't quote my whole remark.

CR

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Originally Posted by For Truth

for example in recent times in Ireland with the peace deals trying to deal with the IRA was difficult, even if the leaders of the IRA wanted to halt terrorist activities they couldn't keep everyone in line, most recent example being the bank robbery not long ago this is after the IRA supposedly gave up criminal activities years ago. But the British goverment had to be above this, we could have turned time back 20 years and say look they're doing this, this and this so we have to defend ourselves, but goverments must be held to a higher standard than terrorist organisations.

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Originally Posted by CR

The Palestinians have systematically violated the agreements they have reached with Israel. They started this current cycle of violence.

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So this is all because "They started it!"

This debate seems to be becoming more and more polarised as we go. Reconciliation doesn't come from blaming the other guy.

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

This debate seems to be becoming more and more polarised as we go. Reconciliation doesn't come from blaming the other guy.

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Indeed. I am as much to blame as anyone for furthering that style of postation. :shame:

Suffice it to say, I'm just glad my buddies in Gaza are enjoying a few days of freedom.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

The same way how Iraqi bombers don't get close enough to US patrols before being killed.

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Now that's interesting. I thought we lost over 3000 soldiers- many of them to homemade bombs. :no:

As to the Israelis and Palestinians, I can't help but think that had the surrounding countries actually took responsibility for their citizens that were in the territories they lost in a war we wouldn't be having this problem. I also think that had Israel acted like proper conquerors and kicked out the muslims living in the captured territory at the time, we also wouldn't be having this problem. :shrug:

Sorry Axman, not even the Post agrees with you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012303327.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

THE HAMAS movement provided a dramatic illustration yesterday of its ability to disrupt any movement toward peace between Israelis and Palestinians. As tens of thousands of residents of the Gaza Strip surged across the border into Egypt, Hamas security forces directed traffic; earlier, they stood by as organized groups of militants blew up the fence along the previously sealed border. As Hamas no doubt expected, the government of Egypt greeted this illegal invasion with a quick surrender: President Hosni Mubarak announced that Gazans would be allowed to shop in Egypt because they "are starving due to the Israeli siege."

In fact, as Mr. Mubarak well knows, no one is starving in Gaza -- though food, fuel and cigarettes are much cheaper across the border. Israel closed its border with the territory and disrupted power supplies over the weekend in response to a massive escalation of Palestinian rocket launches from Gaza at nearby Israeli towns -- between Tuesday and Saturday last week, some 225 rockets were aimed at the town of Sderot, where more than 20,000 Israelis have been relentlessly terrorized. Hamas took advantage of the blockade first by arranging for sympathetic Arab media to document the "humanitarian crisis," then by daring Egypt to use force against Palestinian civilians portrayed as Israel's victims. Its ultimate goal, stated publicly yesterday by Damascus-based leader Khaled Meshal, is to force Egypt to permanently reopen the border in cooperation with Hamas; that would greatly diminish Israel's ability to respond to rocket attacks with economic sanctions, and it would undermine the rival Palestinian leadership of Mahmoud Abbas

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Sorry Axman, not even the Post agrees with you:

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I'm sure very few people agree with me. And to be honest, I don't care.

When I see someone suffering, illegally imprisoned, without friends, treated as less than human because of their skin colour or religion or nationality, that's my cue to speak up no matter how wrong the rest of the world says I am.

My mother liked that about me. :sunny:

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I'm sure very few people agree with me. And to be honest, I don't care.

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That's cool. :2thumbsup:

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When I see someone suffering, illegally imprisoned, without friends, treated as less than human because of their skin colour or religion or nationality, that's my cue to speak up no matter how wrong the rest of the world says I am.

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So why did you open this thread?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Sorry Axman, not even the Post agrees with you

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Ah well, that's in then thread closed! American newspapers are absolute gospel after all... :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by caravel

Ah well, that's in then thread closed! American newspapers are absolute gospel after all... :inquisitive:

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Especially if the journalists are black. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Now that's interesting. I thought we lost over 3000 soldiers- many of them to homemade bombs. :no:

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Weren't the majority of those deaths caused by car bombs, ambushes, or enemy IEDs, not necessarily suicide bombs?

Jews have what they wanted. Now they can control Gaza (maybe not officially but they can always shot some rockets) and they don't have to pay for that.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Weren't the majority of those deaths caused by car bombs, ambushes, or enemy IEDs, not necessarily suicide bombs?

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What he said

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NO, it can be put on the Arafat and the other leaders who planned the second intifada before Sharon's visit to the Wailing Wall.

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Planned? Do you know what "intifada" means? Look it up.

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Ya. Can't meet their demands because that whould be to stop existing.

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Fateh never had that demand. At least not in the last 15 years.

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.. their goal isn't 'resistance' it's extermination, as spelled out in their charter.

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Like their rockets "exterminate" people. Lol.

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Yet Arafat decided he wanted a second intifada.

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Lol x2.

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If Hamas actually made some steps towards peace - you know, stopping the rockets fired at Israeli cities, maybe change the fact that their charter calls for the destruction of Israel - they could get involved in diplomacy.

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I'd call for the destruction of a country that occupies my land, and kills my wife and children, and makes living hard enough for who's left. But I'm not the Palestinian PEOPLE, neither is Hamas.

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Bah. It's all 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' of Palestinians with their supporters. Amazing - Arafat started the second intifada when they were on the road to peace, Hamas wants to destroy Israel, but still the excuses flow forth. Amazing.

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It's not funny anymore. Arafat didn't start the intifada.

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They don't even target the military. Perhaps you should ask why they do aim for civilians instead of the military. You need to challenge your assumption they don't have the capability to target the military.

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Cities tend to be quite bigger than Millitary posts, figure they'd hit something here. And.. You're expecting a palestinian rocket to hit a Millitary post? An Israeli one? Don't they have some counter stuff for the most primitive kind of "put some gunpowder in an iron shell then light it"-rockets?

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Really? Cuz we always seem to talk with them for the road map to peace. You notice how people in the west bank aren't starving? Hamas, as has been said, is not all the Palestinians, and just because we do not talk to them doesn't mean we don't talk to Palestinians (like, oh, Fatah, aka Hamas lite). Funny you don't quote my whole remark.

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I guess all your talk then is worthless, and then effortless to begin with. (PS. Look at what Fateh gained from "talking" with you, in my last post. If that's "talking" and that's supposed to fix it: lol.)

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Its ultimate goal, stated publicly yesterday by Damascus-based leader Khaled Meshal, is to force Egypt to permanently reopen the border in cooperation with Hamas; that would greatly diminish Israel's ability to respond to rocket attacks with economic sanctions, and it would undermine the rival Palestinian leadership of Mahmoud Abbas

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Bull. Khaled Meshal isn't "Damascus-based", and didn't say any of that. Kudos for understanding arabic, and watching the meeting.

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.. where more than 20,000 Israelis have been relentlessly terrorized.

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Well, they did fire those rockets with more than 100,000 (don't have the exact number, neither an idea of the number, it must be bigger than this) palestinians killed, and some tens of thousands prisoned illegally for tens of years. Poor Israelis.

Btw: I'd be happy with a fair peace agreement (not saying or admitting in any way that "peace" would be "just"... that would be giving palestinians their lands back), but really, I don't see that happening with the current, former and ever actions of the Israeli government. Before the second Intifada, there was a good chance of peace happening. But Israeli government had to ruin that, and nothing was better than using one's religion to do that, especially when most of the "west" would not be able to relate to it, and thus consider it "in-valid" as a response to that action, one way or another. And so, they did what could only be interpreted as "swearing" (PS. trying to use the lightest word I can find. But I can assure you it's much worse) at the muslim nation. And believe me, if was possible, that Intifada would've been from every muslim in the world, not only those in Palestine.