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Not if you are as cynical as I am, cynism gots a logic of it's own. I don't believe in our goodness, men is wolf to men, decency is an illusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
If you were a character in The Walking Dead, what type of character would you be?
(I am really not that cyninal, just making a case)
Sorry Frags, being cynical just don't cut it as a defense for the ideas you put forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You are defending what is the most vile thing a human can do to another...
You seriously have to make an EXTREMELY good case for why it would be needed to torture someone... All you have contributed with is Hollywood fantasies.
Shame on you.
Convince me why it's always wrong without it just being wrong taken as a given. The Dutch resistance tortured nazi's to get info for the allies. Probably saved a lot of lives. Your whole argument is that it is unacceptable, but you never say why; it's unaccetable, basta. Need a little bit more to chew on.
There are worse things then terrorism, police states are one of those.
Torture by the state is many steps worse then a police state.
Easy way out, I am not pleading for that, I just say that there are scenarios where I can be comfortable with someone being tortured. You on the other hand would be comfortable with the comfortable bliss that is the moral higher ground, knowing that thousands could die, but at least you are morally superior? That's not being moral, that is being narcist, inherently egocentric to not do what should be done when it's the only option left, no matter how much you would hate doing it.
Torture outside of TV and movies is notoriously volatile (short life span of useful information if any), and is inaccurate. Might as well stick to burning witches at stakes for all the benefit and justice it achieves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Standard police work has been shown to be far as or more effective then torture as far as information gathering is concerned. Police work also beats torture hands down for hearts and minds. So police work not only resolves the issue more effectively it doesn't create a new or larger generation of fanatics.
The idea of torture to gain freedom is a dumb tautology. It is counter productive and ineffective. It also relies on the premise that the person somehow has ongoing useful operational knowledge when most terrorist groups act in semi independent cells. It just lowers us to their level and like most laws and law enforcement techniques it tends to bleed out into the wider law enforcement apparatus.
I don't think it works either, I am just interested in the higher moral ground that people who are absolutily against it take. I get no answer when asking for it.
I was originally going to go on a swear filled rant but life got in the way and by the time I got back to this the rage had cooled into despair and I didnt feel like it. After a while I decided that saying anything in opposition to torture would be a waste of time as the only people who would ever even attempt to defend it are either psychopaths like chenye or the worst eschelons of Republican die hards, of which this forum is thankfully devoid of.
Instead I think I shall merely rip off a comment I saw on fark and leave it at that.: "It's disturbingly consistent how conservatives support the government hurting and killing people, and are deeply offended by the government doing anything to promote their health and longevity."
It's a moral dillema, derveres introspection of what you are capable yourself, think the Milgram or Asch experiments
The really frightening thing is that I have found most of the police officers I know or have met on line favor torture.
People are so far removed from unpleasant experiences, they have no intuitive sense of what it means to be tortured.
i grew up in a country where my fathers colleague was murdered by the state, dumped on his wifes doorstep in a hessian sack, and her told if she made a fuss her children would never get an education. this was a state where [that] could be done, without any fear of public opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
likewise, my mother had lunch with the presidents wife, herself reputed to have knocked off nearly as many people as the big man himself.