Successor game rules, draft one.

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Excellent. I would just add a clause allowing a noble to leave a province to his natural son. I think we had this in KotR.

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...or to any avatar of his choice, thus leaving the ability for a player to leave a province to his next avatar.

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Originally Posted by Zim

It's not a matter of being offended, more becoming weary. It seems I come home to ever growing lists of where I messed up. Rules changes are being proposed at a dizzying rate, and I've had trouble keeping up with edits, which have to be made hastily and then contain even more mistakes and contradictions. I'm just tired... I'm sure much of it is that now far more people are much more interested in the game, so more are sharing their input on problems.

I'll try to compile a list of changes tomorrow evening after work

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I really don't mind doing the edits on the starting game rules, to help keep make things easier for you. I've already got a partially finished version completed anyway.

On that note, I'd like to state that I really don't want to do the Library again for this game. I've now done WotS, KotR, and LotR. I need a break from the Library.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I really don't mind doing the edits on the starting game rules, to help keep make things easier for you. I've already got a partially finished version completed anyway.

On that note, I'd like to state that I really don't want to do the Library again for this game. I've now done WotS, KotR, and LotR. I need a break from the Library.

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You need a break period from anything GM related TC :laugh4:

Speaking of which, I have nothing letf to argue out in the rules, except for dueling mechanics.

I'd be willing to take over the Library... Assuming people are okay if I don't do those 'Current Extent of the Kingdom' and the maps of the areas of the world. Those seem like the most work, and I know I never used 'em.

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

...or to any avatar of his choice, thus leaving the ability for a player to leave a province to his next avatar.

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I thought that was what we trying to avoid with the whole "land goes to the Duke" thing?

Igno's idea of leaving land to your natural son is very characterful.

But leaving it to your reincarnation does not feel right to me. I'd prefer a new avatar to mean a new start. Apart from it just feeling "gamey", I am worried about players becoming one man dynasties that come to exert a stranglehold on the game. Death is a great leveller.

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

I'd be willing to take over the Library... Assuming people are okay if I don't do those 'Current Extent of the Kingdom' and the maps of the areas of the world. Those seem like the most work, and I know I never used 'em.

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Tables are currently broken anyway, so the method I used to do that wouldn't work. That stuff was largely a holdover from WotS, where we had players who didn't have in-game avatars and never loaded up the game. They needed a method of knowing what was going on in the game. Since everyone now has to be able to load up the save in order to be able to play in the first place, there's no serious need for them.

That said, the most work is by far the mugshots.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Tables are currently broken anyway, so the method I used to do that wouldn't work. That stuff was largely a holdover from WotS, where we had players who didn't have in-game avatars and never loaded up the game. They needed a method of knowing what was going on in the game. Since everyone now has to be able to load up the save in order to be able to play in the first place, there's no serious need for them.

That said, the most work is by far the mugshots.

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Hmm, I suppose so. Anyway, sounds like fun. I'd definitely like maintaining the Library.

I'll do a History again unless someone else really wants to bang out a lot of [url][/url] links with semi-clever titles.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I thought that was what we trying to avoid with the whole "land goes to the Duke" thing?

Igno's idea of leaving land to your natural son is very characterful.

But leaving it to your reincarnation does not feel right to me. I'd prefer a new avatar to mean a new start. Apart from it just feeling "gamey", I am worried about players becoming one man dynasties that come to exert a stranglehold on the game. Death is a great leveller.

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I agree.

In KotR, if I remember correctly, with the exception of the Prinz, who inherited all royal lands when he became King, a character had to be knighted before he could be assigned land by a Duke. So passing on land to your next avatar was nigh impossible. I remember that Stig's plan, as Duke of Franconia, to make his daughter his heir so his next avatar could presumably marry her and inherit the Duchy, raised some eyebrows.

In LotR, I admit to taking part in land fraud by passing on Constantinople from Aleksios to Tiv, my next avatar, rather than to Ioannis, as one would expect. Which in hindsight was a bit sleazy of me, though at that point Al was terrified of civil war occurring after his death.

Personally, I think not keeping territories in the exact same hands from generation to generation encourages cooperation amongst House members. You scratch someone's back now, and they'll take care of your next avatar later. It promotes House cohesion rather than individual accumulation.

Perhaps, as mentioned earlier, there should be a few turns gap between the death of a player's old character and the spawning, or assumption, of his new one. Thus ensuring that everyone starts out with no inherited land. This, also discussed earlier, would encourage players to maximise and preserve their current character since death would become more of an impediment.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Tables are currently broken anyway....

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Any idea when they will be fixed?

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Any idea when they will be fixed?

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Tosa is working on it. Apparently there is a table system that does work at the moment that involves HTML, it's just the old table system that doesn't work. He's working on restoring the old system as well so that the tables we've posted before in other threads look properly. He just fixed the sortable prefixes yesterday, so that's already one major problem dealt with.

Good to know! :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by OverKnight

I agree.

In KotR, if I remember correctly, with the exception of the Prinz, who inherited all royal lands when he became King, a character had to be knighted before he could be assigned land by a Duke. So passing on land to your next avatar was nigh impossible. I remember that Stig's plan, as Duke of Franconia, to make his daughter his heir so his next avatar could presumably marry her and inherit the Duchy, raised some eyebrows.

In LotR, I admit to taking part in land fraud by passing on Constantinople from Aleksios to Tiv, my next avatar, rather than to Ioannis, as one would expect. Which in hindsight was a bit sleazy of me, though at that point Al was terrified of civil war occurring after his death.

Personally, I think not keeping territories in the exact same hands from generation to generation encourages cooperation amongst House members. You scratch someone's back now, and they'll take care of your next avatar later. It promotes House cohesion rather than individual accumulation.

Perhaps, as mentioned earlier, there should be a few turns gap between the death of a player's old character and the spawning, or assumption, of his new one. Thus ensuring that everyone starts out with no inherited land. This, also discussed earlier, would encourage players to maximise and preserve their current character since death would become more of an impediment.

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I agree with OverKnight for the reasons he states. It really seemed gamey to me to allow passing on land to your next avatar in LOTR. In fact I really wasn't in favor of reserving in-game avatars either. The unknown factor of exactly what you are going to get for your next avatar makes for a better game IMO.

Sure, as long as I can see the edits before they're made. :yes:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I really don't mind doing the edits on the starting game rules, to help keep make things easier for you. I've already got a partially finished version completed anyway.

On that note, I'd like to state that I really don't want to do the Library again for this game. I've now done WotS, KotR, and LotR. I need a break from the Library.

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Originally Posted by Zim

Sure, as long as I can see the edits before they're made. :yes:

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Tried to PM this, but it's too long for a single PM:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As requested, here are the rule changes in the draft I've done up. All changes are marked in red.

Things that were mentioned as changes, but which I have not changed because I wasn’t confident enough that there was a consensus on the changes proposed:

1) Prioritized Construction
2) PvP Recruitment – I don’t think we’ve yet decided whether to allow this at all, and if we do allow it whether it should be the Draft or Merc system.
3) 2(a) needs to have the proper House names inserted, but I’m not positive what the starting Houses will be called, so I didn’t do it.

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1. General

(a). - Game Settings:

M2TW Kingdoms with the 1.5 patch
Lands to Conquer Gold Mod
Very Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles.
Large Unit Size
Battle Timer On
Show CPU Moves
Manage All Settlements
Only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

(b). - Avatars: Each player will roleplay a Noble of France. On joining the game, each player will choose an avatar to represent this Noble. Avatars can be ‘family members’ or recruitable generals. Players are reminded that due to limitations imposed by the M2TW engine, only avatars on the family tree will be able to marry, have children, and have a chance of becoming Prince and King. Recruitable generals can be spawned at any time, but family member creation is beyond our control. Players may only use agents as avatars with permission from the GM, since agents cannot fight battles and have a different set of stats from family members and recruitable generals. If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the avatar who is the adopter. If a player character is killed, there is a 5 turn wait to have a recruitable general spawned for him. He may immediately take any available family members, however.

(c). - Battles: A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved. If a player cannot fight a battle that is assigned to them, the battle may also be fought by any player whose avatar will also be present in the battle. Under no circumstances will a battle be fought by a player whose avatar is not present in the battle. If there is no player available to fight a battle, it must be autoresolved. If there are no allocated avatars involved in the battle at all, it must be autoresolved.

(d) - Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Seneschal will post an annual report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have at least 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Seneschal may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of an edict. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war resulting from an edict.

(e) - Events: Whenever they desire, but no more often than once every 10 turns, Zim, TheFlax, or anyone they choose may create an in-game Event. Events are not limited in scope, subject matter, or method of implementation. All game rules can be violated to implement an Event. The players can prevent the implementation of any single Event through a simple majority of unweighted votes.

(f) - Game Master: Zim will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game, enforcement of the Game Rules, and resolution of disputes regarding the Game Rules. Zim can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses.

2. Houses

(a). - Starting Houses: There are four starting Houses corresponding to the starting family members (excepting the King) and first two starting generals, named House "Zim Rules", House "Zim Sucks", House "Who Is This Zim Person Anyway?" and House "Gah!". The leaders of these starting Houses are exempt from any obligations to join the Houses of their parents, and are the first Dukes of their respective Houses.

All other family members start in the House of their parents and are considered to have sworn an oath of fealty to their "parent", regardless of whether they are born into the family, are adopted, or marry into it. They are able to break their familial oath and attempt to join another House, start a new one, or remain independent. However, this brings with it the chance of Civil War as laid out in Rule 6 (b).

(b). - RGBs: Recruitable generals start off in the game as independent Knights, excepting the first two as per Rule 2 (a). From this position they are free to remain independent or join any of the existing Houses. Should they join an existing House and own land, they will be counted as landed vassals for the purpose of determining ranks within their House, but are unable to inherit leadership of the House. Should a Knight receive an adoption or marriage offer, they will be required to join the House of their new parents, if said parents have one. If they are already members of another House this will still carry the risk of Civil War as per Rule 6 (b).

(c) - New Houses: Any independent land owning Noble may attempt to start a new House by proposing a Codex Amendment at the Council of Nobles. Should the Codex Amendment pass, they will automatically attain the rank of Duke of their new House. They may name it whatever they please. Recruitable generals who become Dukes in this manner are exempt from any requirement to join a parent's House if they are adopted or become an FM through marriage.

3. - Feudal Hierarchy

(a). - Rank Gain and Loss: All Nobles enter the game at the rank of Knight. Nobles will be promoted to a higher rank as soon as they meet the requirements for that rank. If, at any point, a Noble ceases to meet the requirements of their existing rank, they will be demoted to the highest rank whose requirements they meet.

(b). - Gaining and Losing Provinces: All conquered provinces must be ratified by an edict, which can be passed at the session before the conquest or be applied retroactively at the first session after. If a province is not ratified in this manner by the end of the very next session after it was made, it must be given away or abandoned. While a province is not ratified taxes must be set to the highest level possible and no recruitment can be made in that settlement. Any province conquered and ratified becomes part of the King's Demesne. (line deleted here) At the time of conquest, the conquering Noble can refuse to hand the province over to the King, but this puts him in a state of Civil War with the King. The King can be prevented from giving any province in the Demesne to another Noble by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council.

At the start of the game, Zim will determine which Nobles receive control of the starting provinces, to a maximum of one province per Noble. Nobles lose control of one of their provinces if they voluntarily give it to another Noble, if it is conquered by an AI faction, if it is occupied by the army of a Noble who has made a Declaration of War against them, or if they break an Oath of Fealty (however, if a civil war results they can regain the province either in the war or through a treaty).

(c). - Retinue: At any time, a Noble may give any retinue item/member they possess to another Noble or remove it from their avatar without giving it to anyone else. If a retinue item/member cannot be transferred or removed due to game coding or distance between avatars, console commands may be used to allow the transfer or removal. (Title related lines deleted)

(d) - Wills & Inheritance: Upon the death of a noble his land goes to the highest ranking member of his feudal chain. If he is independent the land goes to the King. All land in the King's Demesne is passed to the new King. Dukes can pass on their rank to a House member of their choosing, by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.

(e) - Oaths of Fealty: Any Independent Noble may swear an oath of fealty to any Noble whenever he wishes. In order to become a Vassal of another Noble, a Noble must take an Oath of Fealty by specifically swearing allegiance to that player in a public thread. The prospective Lord has the right to refuse to accept the Oath. An Oath of Fealty can be broken if either the Lord or the Vassal specifically revokes it in a public thread. If a Vassal breaks an Oath of Fealty without the permission of his Lord, he cannot swear a new Oath of Fealty until 5 turns have passed. A Senator can only have one Lord at a time, but he may have an unlimited number of Vassals. Oaths of Fealty cannot be sworn or broken while the Council is in session.

(f) - Feudal Ranks: In the event of a conflict, Rule 3 (f) takes priority over all other rules. The feudal ranks and positions are as follows:

Knight:
Requirements: None
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot run for Seneschal.

Baron:
Requirements: Must have personal control of a province.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
(3) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
Penalties:
(1) Loses control of all provinces if they fail to vote in two consecutive Normal Council Sessions. All provinces lost in this way are given to the Baron's Duke. If the Baron is not in a House, the provinces are given to the King.

Count:
Requirements: Must have personal control of a province. Must have at least one landowning vassal. Must be a member of a House.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
(3) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 3 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
Penalties:
(1) Loses control of all provinces if they fail to vote in two consecutive Normal Council Sessions. All provinces lost in this way are given to the Count's Duke.

Duke:
Requirements: Must be one of the beginning Dukes as per Rule 2(a), have become Duke as per the will of a deceased Duke as per Rule 3(d), have been given the title by a resigning Duke, have attained the title of Duke by Rule 2(c), or gained the title as part of a peace agreement at the end of a Civil War.
Influence: 1 + 1 for every Count in his House.
Powers:
(1) Can propose three Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
(3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions if another Duke seconds the call.
(4) May at any time rename their House.
(5) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
(6) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 4 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
(7) Can voluntarily resign and pass on their title to any land owning Noble of their choosing.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other rank except those of Seneschal and Prince.

Prince:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Heir.
Influence: 2.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Prince are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Prince's other rank(s), unless the Power specifically states otherwise.
(2) In the absence of the King, the Prince can ban nobles from a Council Session. Banned Senators cannot speak or propose legislation, but they are permitted to vote.
(3) In the absence of the King, the Prince can adjudicate on rule disputes. However, if a rule dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Seneschal will be the adjudicator.
(4) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term. This power is cumulative with the ability to prioritize units under any other rank held by the Prince.

King:
Requirements: Must be the in-game faction leader.
Influence: Equal to Authority stat.
Powers:
(1) Can propose an unlimited number of Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for all settlements in the King's Demesne. Can destroy any building in those settlements and can rename any of them at any time.
(3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions.
(4) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
(5) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
(6) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason.
(7) Can veto one Edict or Amendment per 3 ranks of Authority.
(8) Decides which noble, if any, a Princess should marry.
(9) Can allocate all newly conquered land, or let it remain within the King's Demesne if he wishes.
(10) Once during his reign, the King may automatically assume the post of Seneschal for a single term. The King must declare that he is exercising that right at a Council Session; He will then be appointed Seneschal with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the King can also compete in normal Seneschal elections.
(11) Can ban Nobles from a Council Session. Banned Nobles cannot speak or propose legislations, but they are permitted to vote.
(12) Can adjudicate on disputes regarding Edicts and Codex Amendments. However, if a dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Seneschal will be the adjudicator.
(13) Can rename the faction at any time.
(14) Can move the Capital at any time, as long as the new Capital is within the King's Demesne.
(15) Can prioritize 5 units per term.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other feudal rank except that of Seneschal.
(2) Cannot swear an Oath of Fealty to another Senator and cannot have any Vassals.
Inheritance: On the death of a King, all Oaths of Fealty pertaining to the Noble who is now King are instantly broken, with no penalties. The new King takes control of any provinces in the King's Demesne, as well as retaining those under his control at the time of his ascension. If he was Duke of his House, his named heir for that post attains the rank. In the absence of a named heir, the second in charge of the House becomes Duke.

Seneschal:
Requirements: Must have been elected Seneschal or attained it through declaration under King's Power (10).
Influence: For every term a noble serves as Seneschal, he gets a permanent +1 to his influence. This bonus is cumulative for Nobles who serve multiple terms as Seneschal. This bonus does not apply to the King or any Seneschal who was impeached.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Seneschal are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Seneschal's other rank(s), unless the Power specifically states otherwise.
(2) The Seneschal is responsible for all monetary expenditures in the game. The choice of what to build/recruit is entirely up to him, except as stated in the Limitations on Powers.
(3) The Seneschal can move all armies that start a turn outside a settlement and led by a captain.
(4) The Seneschal can move all fleets, unless they started the turn inside a port in the realm.
(5) The Seneschal can move and use all agents.
Limitations on powers:
(1) The Seneschal must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. The Seneschal is not required to build anything, but if he does build in a settlement, it must be the first item in the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Seneschal may build whatever he wishes.
(2) The Seneschal must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
(3) Prioritized Units - No money can be spent on any recruitment until all Prioritized Units have been funded, unless the Nobles who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Units, and not enough funding for all of them, the Seneschal may choose which to recruit first. Nobles may specify the type of unit to be recruited and the location for the recruitment. The Type of Unit is restricted to the broad classifications of infantry, foot missiles, and cavalry. Artillery and mercenaries cannot be Prioritized. A unit may be retrained instead of recruited if the unit is already located in a settlement where it can be retrained in some fashion. Except for the King, the Location is restricted to any settlement owned by the Noble requesting the units or owned by a vassal in his feudal chain. The King may specify any settlement in the Kingdom as the Location.
(5) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.

4. - Government

(a) - Sessions: The Council of the Realm (Conseil du Royaume) will meet in a Normal Session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each Normal and Emergency Session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting. Zim can change the length of individual sessions at will.

(b) - Proposing Legislation: During each session, Nobles may propose Edicts and Amendments, up to the limit allowed by their rank. Edicts and Amendments must be seconded by two other Nobles before they can be put to the vote.

(c) - Edicts: Edicts require a simple majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect until the next normal session of the Council. Tied Edicts fail. If contradictory Edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority. Edicts can only be enforced by IC means. Edicts cannot contradict the Game Rules.

(d) - Codex Amendments: Amendments require a two-thirds majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect permanently, or until repealed by another Codex Amendment. Codex Amendments can only be enforced by IC means. Codex Amendments cannot contradict the Game Rules.

(e) - Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. Zim can veto any proposed Rule Change, but does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as Zim sees fit.

(f) - Influence: Each Noble’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence. No Noble's Influence may ever be lower than 1. Influence is increased permanently by 1 if a Noble marries a Princess of the royal family and 1 for each term a noble serves as Seneschal.

(g) - War: Except as allowed by rank powers under Rule 3 (f), any declaration of war must be authorized by an Edict.

(h) - Elections: At each Normal Session, on the death of the Seneschal, or on the impeachment of the Seneschal, there is an election for the post of Seneschal. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age).

(i) - Impeachment: The Seneschal can be impeached and removed from office by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council. Impeachment takes effect immediately after the vote is passed. After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Seneschal, although the King may also exercise his power to become Seneschal at that point. The Noble replacing the impeached Seneschal serves out the remainder of the impeached Seneschal's term. All Edicts passed in the Council session that elected the impeached Seneschal remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.

5. - Armies

(a) - Armies: Except as stated in Rule 5 (b), all Nobles own all army units that begin a turn in a stack led by their avatar, in the garrison of a settlement they own, and in the garrison of a fort inside a province they own, regardless of how the units got there. Nobles instantly own any Captain-led stack that their avatar moves onto. No one may move or disband any units owned by a Noble without his permission.

(b) - Seizing Armies: Any Noble may move his avatar onto an army owned by another Noble from the same feudal chain. If this occurs, the Noble with the highest feudal rank instantly owns the entire combined army. If both Nobles are of the same rank, the eldest Noble will own the entire combined army. The King may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the status of the Noble that previously owned it, unless that Noble is in a state of Civil War against the King. A Noble may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a Noble from outside his feudal chain unless both Nobles agree to the move beforehand. If there is a subsequent disagreement about who owns the units in the army, where the army is to move, or who commands the army, the King will decide. This Rule does not apply to garrisons of settlements or forts. Avatars may never be seized.

(c) - Naval Fleets: All Nobles own all fleets that begin a turn in the port of a settlement they own, regardless of how the fleet got there. Otherwise, naval fleets are owned by the Noble with the highest feudal rank who is onboard the fleet. If there are multiple Nobles of the same rank, the eldest Noble will own the fleet. No one may move or disband any ships in a fleet owned by a Noble without his permission.

(d) - Historical Army Composition: An army of 10 units or less cannot have more than 3 units of heavy cavalry. An army of 11 units or more cannot have more than 5 units of heavy cavalry. For the purposes of this rule, bodyguard units do not count as heavy cavalry. Armies that do not meet these requirements cannot fight battles under any circumstances, though they can be used for transportation.


6. - Civil War

(a) - Declaration of War: A Noble must make a Declaration of War towards a specific Noble in a public thread before they can attack any of that Noble’s armies or settlements. A Declaration of War applies to all Nobles of lower rank in the vassal chains of both the Noble who makes the Declaration and the Noble who is the target of the Declaration, including vassals who swear an Oath of Fealty after the Declaration of War has been made. A Declaration of War does not apply to any Noble in the vassal chain who are above the declarer or the target. (last two lines deleted as changes in PvP campaign map movement make them obsolete)

(b) - Civil War through Oath Breaking: If a Vassal breaks an Oath of Fealty, anyone above him in the feudal chain may choose to instantly enter a state of Civil War. For the purposes Rule 6 (a), the Noble who broke the Oath of Fealty will be considered the person who issued the Declaration of War, and the Noble who chooses to enter the state of Civil War will be treated as the target of the Declaration of War.

(c) - Ending a Civil War: A Civil War will end when all Nobles on one side are dead or all living Nobles on both sides publicly agree to a Peace Treaty. A Noble's public agreement to a Peace Treaty will also remove all Nobles below him in his feudal chain from the Civil War, unless the vassal Nobles specifically state otherwise in a public thread. So long as it is limited to changes to the provinces, settlements, armies, Oaths of Fealty, retinue, or the title of Duke of the Noble(s) signing the Peace Treaty, it will be considered binding law. All terms of a Peace Treaty that go beyond these limits, particularly those that increase a Noble’s influence or powers beyond those allowed by the rules, will only be binding if adopted by a two-thirds majority of the Council at the next normal session. Individual Nobles may unilaterally remove themselves from a Civil War within one turn of the Declaration of War that brought them into it by breaking all Oaths of Fealty that tie them to any Noble involved in the War and by publicly declaring Neutrality. Neutrality cannot be claimed by a declarer, a target, or any Noble who has been involved in a PvP Battle during that specific Civil War.

(d) - Civil Wars on the Campaign Map: While a Civil War is in progress, all players involved in the Civil War will lose their ability to make any moves on the campaign map. On every game turn, all players involved in the Civil War will submit a PM to Zim giving movement orders for that turn. These movement orders can include up to a maximum of two of the following orders:

(1) - Gather: The player may gather units he owns that are located in the same province as his avatar, but which are not currently located in his avatar's army. All units specified in this manner will be teleported into the avatar's army.

(2) - Move: The player may move his avatar's army into any adjacent province. If a player desires to cross a body of water, Zim will determine how many Move orders are required to cross it, and whether the player can end a turn at sea.

(3) - Defend: The player fortifies his army in a specific province, providing a terrain advantage if a battle occurs in that province before the player moves again.

After the turn ends, Zim will implement all moves for players involved in the Civil War, utilizing the console. The orders will be executed simultaneously for all players, but in the sequence they were listed in the PMs (i.e. Order 1 will be implement for all players, followed by Order 2 for all players). If this movement results in a player entering a province with a hostile AI-controlled army, Zim will determine whether a battle against the AI will occur. Movement will continue in this manner until two hostile player-controlled armies enter the same province. When this occurs, a PvP Battle will begin. All PvP Battles will be considered Meeting Engagements, in which neither side has a terrain advantage, unless one of the armies was Defending the province where the battle occurred. If this happens, the defending army will get a terrain advantage in the following manner: (1) If the province is owned by the Defender, the battle will be a siege assault of the settlement. (2) If the province is not owned by the Defender, the battle map will be chosen such that a terrain advantage, such as a high mountain, fort, or bridge is given to the Defender. The Umpire of the battle will determine the precise nature of the terrain advantage.

(e) - PvP Battles: (small part deleted) Whenever a PvP Battle occurs, if both players agree, the battle will be fought via multiplayer, with Zim or anyone he chooses acting as umpire. The umpire will determine the map and the precise composition of the armies. If the battle is not fought via multiplayer, there will be a 24 hour voting period to determine how the battle will be fought. The voting options will be (a) Tabletop Battle (b) Abbreviated Tabletop Battle and (c) AI Battle. All players may vote, even those not involved in the battle, all votes will be unweighted, and the option that receives the most votes will be chosen. Tabletop Battles will be in the style of the The Battle of the Iron Bridge and the Battle of the Basileis and will be umpired by Zim or anyone he chooses. Abbreviated Tabletop Battles will be identical to a Tabletop Battle, but will be 1 turn in length. Players will determine their starting positions and outline a general strategy for the battle. The umpire will then play out the battle and determine the victor. The umpire may allow a maximum of 1 or 2 additional turns beyond the starting turn if they so choose. The Abbreviated Tabletop Battle will be run by Zim or anyone he chooses. AI Battles will be custom battles in the TW engine in which the AI will control all units on both sides. AI battles will be umpired by Zim or anyone he choose. The umpire will determine all settings to be used in the battle, including the map and the precise composition of the armies. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire must attempt to have the battle replicate the in-game state of affairs to the best of his ability. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire will determine the results, including, but not limited to, units to be disbanded as casualties, avatars to be killed off as casualties, and changes in the control of provinces. Console commands may be used to implement the results.

In a civil war is a player simply allowed to besiege his enemy? The rules indicate that a settlement assault *must* take place. What about siege and sally? Did I miss that somewhere?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

In a civil war is a player simply allowed to besiege his enemy? The rules indicate that a settlement assault *must* take place. What about siege and sally? Did I miss that somewhere?

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In LotR, the battle Umpire had pretty free reign to make the battle be whatever he wanted it to be. Rule 6(e) specifically says:

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Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire must attempt to have the battle replicate the in-game state of affairs to the best of his ability.

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If the in-game state of affairs really did warrant figuring out some kind of siege and sally situation, Zim could simply say (with his power to adjudicate rule disputes and/or launch events) that a siege is allowed, and the umpire would then run it as he saw fit. This is the advantage of a GM with the rule system we have: we don't really have to specify rules for every single possible eventually. We just need to do our best to have a general system in place that is easy to use and understand. Let the GM call it like he sees it from there on out.

Everything looks good. Looks like one lone "senator" is still in the oaths section.

"A Senator can only have one Lord at a time, but he may have an unlimited number of Vassals."

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Tried to PM this, but it's too long for a single PM:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As requested, here are the rule changes in the draft I've done up. All changes are marked in red.

Things that were mentioned as changes, but which I have not changed because I wasn’t confident enough that there was a consensus on the changes proposed:

1) Prioritized Construction
2) PvP Recruitment – I don’t think we’ve yet decided whether to allow this at all, and if we do allow it whether it should be the Draft or Merc system.
3) 2(a) needs to have the proper House names inserted, but I’m not positive what the starting Houses will be called, so I didn’t do it.

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1. General

(a). - Game Settings:

M2TW Kingdoms with the 1.5 patch
Lands to Conquer Gold Mod
Very Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles.
Large Unit Size
Battle Timer On
Show CPU Moves
Manage All Settlements
Only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

(b). - Avatars: Each player will roleplay a Noble of France. On joining the game, each player will choose an avatar to represent this Noble. Avatars can be ‘family members’ or recruitable generals. Players are reminded that due to limitations imposed by the M2TW engine, only avatars on the family tree will be able to marry, have children, and have a chance of becoming Prince and King. Recruitable generals can be spawned at any time, but family member creation is beyond our control. Players may only use agents as avatars with permission from the GM, since agents cannot fight battles and have a different set of stats from family members and recruitable generals. If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the avatar who is the adopter. If a player character is killed, there is a 5 turn wait to have a recruitable general spawned for him. He may immediately take any available family members, however.

(c). - Battles: A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved. If a player cannot fight a battle that is assigned to them, the battle may also be fought by any player whose avatar will also be present in the battle. Under no circumstances will a battle be fought by a player whose avatar is not present in the battle. If there is no player available to fight a battle, it must be autoresolved. If there are no allocated avatars involved in the battle at all, it must be autoresolved.

(d) - Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Seneschal will post an annual report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have at least 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Seneschal may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of an edict. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war resulting from an edict.

(e) - Events: Whenever they desire, but no more often than once every 10 turns, Zim, TheFlax, or anyone they choose may create an in-game Event. Events are not limited in scope, subject matter, or method of implementation. All game rules can be violated to implement an Event. The players can prevent the implementation of any single Event through a simple majority of unweighted votes.

(f) - Game Master: Zim will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game, enforcement of the Game Rules, and resolution of disputes regarding the Game Rules. Zim can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses.

2. Houses

(a). - Starting Houses: There are four starting Houses corresponding to the starting family members (excepting the King) and first two starting generals, named House "Zim Rules", House "Zim Sucks", House "Who Is This Zim Person Anyway?" and House "Gah!". The leaders of these starting Houses are exempt from any obligations to join the Houses of their parents, and are the first Dukes of their respective Houses.

All other family members start in the House of their parents and are considered to have sworn an oath of fealty to their "parent", regardless of whether they are born into the family, are adopted, or marry into it. They are able to break their familial oath and attempt to join another House, start a new one, or remain independent. However, this brings with it the chance of Civil War as laid out in Rule 6 (b).

(b). - RGBs: Recruitable generals start off in the game as independent Knights, excepting the first two as per Rule 2 (a). From this position they are free to remain independent or join any of the existing Houses. Should they join an existing House and own land, they will be counted as landed vassals for the purpose of determining ranks within their House, but are unable to inherit leadership of the House. Should a Knight receive an adoption or marriage offer, they will be required to join the House of their new parents, if said parents have one. If they are already members of another House this will still carry the risk of Civil War as per Rule 6 (b).

(c) - New Houses: Any independent land owning Noble may attempt to start a new House by proposing a Codex Amendment at the Council of Nobles. Should the Codex Amendment pass, they will automatically attain the rank of Duke of their new House. They may name it whatever they please. Recruitable generals who become Dukes in this manner are exempt from any requirement to join a parent's House if they are adopted or become an FM through marriage.

3. - Feudal Hierarchy

(a). - Rank Gain and Loss: All Nobles enter the game at the rank of Knight. Nobles will be promoted to a higher rank as soon as they meet the requirements for that rank. If, at any point, a Noble ceases to meet the requirements of their existing rank, they will be demoted to the highest rank whose requirements they meet.

(b). - Gaining and Losing Provinces: All conquered provinces must be ratified by an edict, which can be passed at the session before the conquest or be applied retroactively at the first session after. If a province is not ratified in this manner by the end of the very next session after it was made, it must be given away or abandoned. While a province is not ratified taxes must be set to the highest level possible and no recruitment can be made in that settlement. Any province conquered and ratified becomes part of the King's Demesne. (line deleted here) At the time of conquest, the conquering Noble can refuse to hand the province over to the King, but this puts him in a state of Civil War with the King. The King can be prevented from giving any province in the Demesne to another Noble by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council.

At the start of the game, Zim will determine which Nobles receive control of the starting provinces, to a maximum of one province per Noble. Nobles lose control of one of their provinces if they voluntarily give it to another Noble, if it is conquered by an AI faction, if it is occupied by the army of a Noble who has made a Declaration of War against them, or if they break an Oath of Fealty (however, if a civil war results they can regain the province either in the war or through a treaty).

(c). - Retinue: At any time, a Noble may give any retinue item/member they possess to another Noble or remove it from their avatar without giving it to anyone else. If a retinue item/member cannot be transferred or removed due to game coding or distance between avatars, console commands may be used to allow the transfer or removal. (Title related lines deleted)

(d) - Wills & Inheritance: Upon the death of a noble his land goes to the highest ranking member of his feudal chain. If he is independent the land goes to the King. All land in the King's Demesne is passed to the new King. Dukes can pass on their rank to a House member of their choosing, by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.

(e) - Oaths of Fealty: Any Independent Noble may swear an oath of fealty to any Noble whenever he wishes. In order to become a Vassal of another Noble, a Noble must take an Oath of Fealty by specifically swearing allegiance to that player in a public thread. The prospective Lord has the right to refuse to accept the Oath. An Oath of Fealty can be broken if either the Lord or the Vassal specifically revokes it in a public thread. If a Vassal breaks an Oath of Fealty without the permission of his Lord, he cannot swear a new Oath of Fealty until 5 turns have passed. A Senator can only have one Lord at a time, but he may have an unlimited number of Vassals. Oaths of Fealty cannot be sworn or broken while the Council is in session.

(f) - Feudal Ranks: In the event of a conflict, Rule 3 (f) takes priority over all other rules. The feudal ranks and positions are as follows:

Knight:
Requirements: None
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot run for Seneschal.

Baron:
Requirements: Must have personal control of a province.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
(3) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
Penalties:
(1) Loses control of all provinces if they fail to vote in two consecutive Normal Council Sessions. All provinces lost in this way are given to the Baron's Duke. If the Baron is not in a House, the provinces are given to the King.

Count:
Requirements: Must have personal control of a province. Must have at least one landowning vassal. Must be a member of a House.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
(3) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 3 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
Penalties:
(1) Loses control of all provinces if they fail to vote in two consecutive Normal Council Sessions. All provinces lost in this way are given to the Count's Duke.

Duke:
Requirements: Must be one of the beginning Dukes as per Rule 2(a), have become Duke as per the will of a deceased Duke as per Rule 3(d), have been given the title by a resigning Duke, have attained the title of Duke by Rule 2(c), or gained the title as part of a peace agreement at the end of a Civil War.
Influence: 1 + 1 for every Count in his House.
Powers:
(1) Can propose three Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
(3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions if another Duke seconds the call.
(4) May at any time rename their House.
(5) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
(6) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 4 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
(7) Can voluntarily resign and pass on their title to any land owning Noble of their choosing.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other rank except those of Seneschal and Prince.

Prince:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Heir.
Influence: 2.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Prince are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Prince's other rank(s), unless the Power specifically states otherwise.
(2) In the absence of the King, the Prince can ban nobles from a Council Session. Banned Senators cannot speak or propose legislation, but they are permitted to vote.
(3) In the absence of the King, the Prince can adjudicate on rule disputes. However, if a rule dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Seneschal will be the adjudicator.
(4) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term. This power is cumulative with the ability to prioritize units under any other rank held by the Prince.

King:
Requirements: Must be the in-game faction leader.
Influence: Equal to Authority stat.
Powers:
(1) Can propose an unlimited number of Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for all settlements in the King's Demesne. Can destroy any building in those settlements and can rename any of them at any time.
(3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions.
(4) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
(5) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
(6) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason.
(7) Can veto one Edict or Amendment per 3 ranks of Authority.
(8) Decides which noble, if any, a Princess should marry.
(9) Can allocate all newly conquered land, or let it remain within the King's Demesne if he wishes.
(10) Once during his reign, the King may automatically assume the post of Seneschal for a single term. The King must declare that he is exercising that right at a Council Session; He will then be appointed Seneschal with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the King can also compete in normal Seneschal elections.
(11) Can ban Nobles from a Council Session. Banned Nobles cannot speak or propose legislations, but they are permitted to vote.
(12) Can adjudicate on disputes regarding Edicts and Codex Amendments. However, if a dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Seneschal will be the adjudicator.
(13) Can rename the faction at any time.
(14) Can move the Capital at any time, as long as the new Capital is within the King's Demesne.
(15) Can prioritize 5 units per term.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other feudal rank except that of Seneschal.
(2) Cannot swear an Oath of Fealty to another Senator and cannot have any Vassals.
Inheritance: On the death of a King, all Oaths of Fealty pertaining to the Noble who is now King are instantly broken, with no penalties. The new King takes control of any provinces in the King's Demesne, as well as retaining those under his control at the time of his ascension. If he was Duke of his House, his named heir for that post attains the rank. In the absence of a named heir, the second in charge of the House becomes Duke.

Seneschal:
Requirements: Must have been elected Seneschal or attained it through declaration under King's Power (10).
Influence: For every term a noble serves as Seneschal, he gets a permanent +1 to his influence. This bonus is cumulative for Nobles who serve multiple terms as Seneschal. This bonus does not apply to the King or any Seneschal who was impeached.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Seneschal are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Seneschal's other rank(s), unless the Power specifically states otherwise.
(2) The Seneschal is responsible for all monetary expenditures in the game. The choice of what to build/recruit is entirely up to him, except as stated in the Limitations on Powers.
(3) The Seneschal can move all armies that start a turn outside a settlement and led by a captain.
(4) The Seneschal can move all fleets, unless they started the turn inside a port in the realm.
(5) The Seneschal can move and use all agents.
Limitations on powers:
(1) The Seneschal must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. The Seneschal is not required to build anything, but if he does build in a settlement, it must be the first item in the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Seneschal may build whatever he wishes.
(2) The Seneschal must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
(3) Prioritized Units - No money can be spent on any recruitment until all Prioritized Units have been funded, unless the Nobles who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Units, and not enough funding for all of them, the Seneschal may choose which to recruit first. Nobles may specify the type of unit to be recruited and the location for the recruitment. The Type of Unit is restricted to the broad classifications of infantry, foot missiles, and cavalry. Artillery and mercenaries cannot be Prioritized. A unit may be retrained instead of recruited if the unit is already located in a settlement where it can be retrained in some fashion. Except for the King, the Location is restricted to any settlement owned by the Noble requesting the units or owned by a vassal in his feudal chain. The King may specify any settlement in the Kingdom as the Location.
(5) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.

4. - Government

(a) - Sessions: The Council of the Realm (Conseil du Royaume) will meet in a Normal Session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each Normal and Emergency Session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting. Zim can change the length of individual sessions at will.

(b) - Proposing Legislation: During each session, Nobles may propose Edicts and Amendments, up to the limit allowed by their rank. Edicts and Amendments must be seconded by two other Nobles before they can be put to the vote.

(c) - Edicts: Edicts require a simple majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect until the next normal session of the Council. Tied Edicts fail. If contradictory Edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority. Edicts can only be enforced by IC means. Edicts cannot contradict the Game Rules.

(d) - Codex Amendments: Amendments require a two-thirds majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect permanently, or until repealed by another Codex Amendment. Codex Amendments can only be enforced by IC means. Codex Amendments cannot contradict the Game Rules.

(e) - Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. Zim can veto any proposed Rule Change, but does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as Zim sees fit.

(f) - Influence: Each Noble’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence. No Noble's Influence may ever be lower than 1. Influence is increased permanently by 1 if a Noble marries a Princess of the royal family and 1 for each term a noble serves as Seneschal.

(g) - War: Except as allowed by rank powers under Rule 3 (f), any declaration of war must be authorized by an Edict.

(h) - Elections: At each Normal Session, on the death of the Seneschal, or on the impeachment of the Seneschal, there is an election for the post of Seneschal. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age).

(i) - Impeachment: The Seneschal can be impeached and removed from office by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council. Impeachment takes effect immediately after the vote is passed. After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Seneschal, although the King may also exercise his power to become Seneschal at that point. The Noble replacing the impeached Seneschal serves out the remainder of the impeached Seneschal's term. All Edicts passed in the Council session that elected the impeached Seneschal remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.

5. - Armies

(a) - Armies: Except as stated in Rule 5 (b), all Nobles own all army units that begin a turn in a stack led by their avatar, in the garrison of a settlement they own, and in the garrison of a fort inside a province they own, regardless of how the units got there. Nobles instantly own any Captain-led stack that their avatar moves onto. No one may move or disband any units owned by a Noble without his permission.

(b) - Seizing Armies: Any Noble may move his avatar onto an army owned by another Noble from the same feudal chain. If this occurs, the Noble with the highest feudal rank instantly owns the entire combined army. If both Nobles are of the same rank, the eldest Noble will own the entire combined army. The King may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the status of the Noble that previously owned it, unless that Noble is in a state of Civil War against the King. A Noble may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a Noble from outside his feudal chain unless both Nobles agree to the move beforehand. If there is a subsequent disagreement about who owns the units in the army, where the army is to move, or who commands the army, the King will decide. This Rule does not apply to garrisons of settlements or forts. Avatars may never be seized.

(c) - Naval Fleets: All Nobles own all fleets that begin a turn in the port of a settlement they own, regardless of how the fleet got there. Otherwise, naval fleets are owned by the Noble with the highest feudal rank who is onboard the fleet. If there are multiple Nobles of the same rank, the eldest Noble will own the fleet. No one may move or disband any ships in a fleet owned by a Noble without his permission.

(d) - Historical Army Composition: An army of 10 units or less cannot have more than 3 units of heavy cavalry. An army of 11 units or more cannot have more than 5 units of heavy cavalry. For the purposes of this rule, bodyguard units do not count as heavy cavalry. Armies that do not meet these requirements cannot fight battles under any circumstances, though they can be used for transportation.


6. - Civil War

(a) - Declaration of War: A Noble must make a Declaration of War towards a specific Noble in a public thread before they can attack any of that Noble’s armies or settlements. A Declaration of War applies to all Nobles of lower rank in the vassal chains of both the Noble who makes the Declaration and the Noble who is the target of the Declaration, including vassals who swear an Oath of Fealty after the Declaration of War has been made. A Declaration of War does not apply to any Noble in the vassal chain who are above the declarer or the target. (last two lines deleted as changes in PvP campaign map movement make them obsolete)

(b) - Civil War through Oath Breaking: If a Vassal breaks an Oath of Fealty, anyone above him in the feudal chain may choose to instantly enter a state of Civil War. For the purposes Rule 6 (a), the Noble who broke the Oath of Fealty will be considered the person who issued the Declaration of War, and the Noble who chooses to enter the state of Civil War will be treated as the target of the Declaration of War.

(c) - Ending a Civil War: A Civil War will end when all Nobles on one side are dead or all living Nobles on both sides publicly agree to a Peace Treaty. A Noble's public agreement to a Peace Treaty will also remove all Nobles below him in his feudal chain from the Civil War, unless the vassal Nobles specifically state otherwise in a public thread. So long as it is limited to changes to the provinces, settlements, armies, Oaths of Fealty, retinue, or the title of Duke of the Noble(s) signing the Peace Treaty, it will be considered binding law. All terms of a Peace Treaty that go beyond these limits, particularly those that increase a Noble’s influence or powers beyond those allowed by the rules, will only be binding if adopted by a two-thirds majority of the Council at the next normal session. Individual Nobles may unilaterally remove themselves from a Civil War within one turn of the Declaration of War that brought them into it by breaking all Oaths of Fealty that tie them to any Noble involved in the War and by publicly declaring Neutrality. Neutrality cannot be claimed by a declarer, a target, or any Noble who has been involved in a PvP Battle during that specific Civil War.

(d) - Civil Wars on the Campaign Map: While a Civil War is in progress, all players involved in the Civil War will lose their ability to make any moves on the campaign map. On every game turn, all players involved in the Civil War will submit a PM to Zim giving movement orders for that turn. These movement orders can include up to a maximum of two of the following orders:

(1) - Gather: The player may gather units he owns that are located in the same province as his avatar, but which are not currently located in his avatar's army. All units specified in this manner will be teleported into the avatar's army.

(2) - Move: The player may move his avatar's army into any adjacent province. If a player desires to cross a body of water, Zim will determine how many Move orders are required to cross it, and whether the player can end a turn at sea.

(3) - Defend: The player fortifies his army in a specific province, providing a terrain advantage if a battle occurs in that province before the player moves again.

After the turn ends, Zim will implement all moves for players involved in the Civil War, utilizing the console. The orders will be executed simultaneously for all players, but in the sequence they were listed in the PMs (i.e. Order 1 will be implement for all players, followed by Order 2 for all players). If this movement results in a player entering a province with a hostile AI-controlled army, Zim will determine whether a battle against the AI will occur. Movement will continue in this manner until two hostile player-controlled armies enter the same province. When this occurs, a PvP Battle will begin. All PvP Battles will be considered Meeting Engagements, in which neither side has a terrain advantage, unless one of the armies was Defending the province where the battle occurred. If this happens, the defending army will get a terrain advantage in the following manner: (1) If the province is owned by the Defender, the battle will be a siege assault of the settlement. (2) If the province is not owned by the Defender, the battle map will be chosen such that a terrain advantage, such as a high mountain, fort, or bridge is given to the Defender. The Umpire of the battle will determine the precise nature of the terrain advantage.

(e) - PvP Battles: (small part deleted) Whenever a PvP Battle occurs, if both players agree, the battle will be fought via multiplayer, with Zim or anyone he chooses acting as umpire. The umpire will determine the map and the precise composition of the armies. If the battle is not fought via multiplayer, there will be a 24 hour voting period to determine how the battle will be fought. The voting options will be (a) Tabletop Battle (b) Abbreviated Tabletop Battle and (c) AI Battle. All players may vote, even those not involved in the battle, all votes will be unweighted, and the option that receives the most votes will be chosen. Tabletop Battles will be in the style of the The Battle of the Iron Bridge and the Battle of the Basileis and will be umpired by Zim or anyone he chooses. Abbreviated Tabletop Battles will be identical to a Tabletop Battle, but will be 1 turn in length. Players will determine their starting positions and outline a general strategy for the battle. The umpire will then play out the battle and determine the victor. The umpire may allow a maximum of 1 or 2 additional turns beyond the starting turn if they so choose. The Abbreviated Tabletop Battle will be run by Zim or anyone he chooses. AI Battles will be custom battles in the TW engine in which the AI will control all units on both sides. AI battles will be umpired by Zim or anyone he choose. The umpire will determine all settings to be used in the battle, including the map and the precise composition of the armies. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire must attempt to have the battle replicate the in-game state of affairs to the best of his ability. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire will determine the results, including, but not limited to, units to be disbanded as casualties, avatars to be killed off as casualties, and changes in the control of provinces. Console commands may be used to implement the results.

---

This is something I should have remembered to say before, but there's something I don't see in the rules: In the Feudal System, land and titles given to a vassal become that vassal's property. There shouldn't be any functional difference between the King giving a province to a Duke and a Duke giving a province to a vassal. From this standpoint, having provinces revert to the Duke or King after a noble dies is a big problem. I'm sure this has already been discussed, though I can't remember when. I presume it was done to eliminate the problem in LotR of having province ownership become a huge jumble where ownership became hard to discern? I don't think this is a part of the LotR rules that needs to be changed: With the Houses made more stable, and a group of players who will presumably maintain interest better, I think that we should reinstate the ability to give provinces in a will.

I would especially like to point attention to a portion of the rules, 3(d).

Quote:

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(d) - Wills & Inheritance: Upon the death of a noble his land goes to the highest ranking member of his feudal chain. If he is independent the land goes to the King. All land in the King's Demesne is passed to the new King. Dukes can pass on their rank to a House member of their choosing, by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.
(emphasis mine)

---

Unless I'm missing something in the rules, the italicised portion includes all dukes as well as any independent barons or counts. For all such independent rulers, their personal desmense would become part of the King's when they died. That means Duchies would shrink over time if they didn't acquire new territories! While an interesting dynamic, I don't think that's what anyone has intended to be in KotF. Certainly it wouldn't be any better to treat independent Counts or Barons the same way. This would mean an independent Baron cannot pass on his title or his land to his own son!

I propose two competing alterations to 3(d). The first eliminates the particular problem I outlined in the previous paragraph, which I think must be addressed. The second is just the LotR rule for Will & Inheritance, which is both more appropriate to the setting and, I think, more likely to run smoothly in KotF. We could also remove the provision from the second version about allowing players will themselves at least one province and retinue.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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(d) - Wills & Inheritance: When a King dies, all land in his demesne is passed to the new King. Upon the death of any other noble, his land goes to the highest ranking member of his feudal chain. A noble who *is* the highest ranking member of his feudal chain can pass on his rank and personal demesne to a member of his feudal chain by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(d) - Wills & Inheritance: On his death, all of a nobles’s provinces, retinue and his title are distributed according to the most recent valid Will. In order for a Will to be valid, it must have been posted in a public thread or PMed to Zim prior to the Senator’s death. Except as noted below, a Will provision is only valid to the extent that it names a living, of-age avatar that is controlled by another player as the inheritor of the province or retinue stated. A player's next avatar may only inherit a single province and a single retinue. A Will may name multiple Senators as inheritors, so long as each province and/or retinue is only bequeathed to a single Senator. Any provisions of the Will that do not meet these requirements will be invalid. Valid provisions of a Will will not be negated due to the existence of invalid provisions in the same Will. If there is no valid Will provision for an owned province, the Senator’s immediate Lord gains possession of the province. If the Senator also has no Lord, the Basileus gains possession of the province.[/B]

Cecil, I think independent was understood to mean not in a House and so would not apply to a Duke.

On the wider issues of wills, I'd like to advocate the half-way house on wills that Ignoramus suggested: allow nobles to bequeath their land to their sons (natural or adopted). I think that is characterful but not so open that it might undermine the House structure. The idea of nobles losing all their land on death to the Duke does seem a bit extreme, but also I can't imagine many nobles actually leaving land to random others who were not their sons.

Something like:

(d) - Wills & Inheritance: When a King dies, all land in his demesne is passed to the new King. A noble can pass on his rank his eldest son and bequeath his land to his children in a valid will. Dukes may pass on their rank and lands to any noble in their House in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House. If a lower ranked noble dies without a will, his land passes to the Duke or to the King if he is not in a House.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.

---

Why retrain the King to picking the successor from the deceased Duke' s House ? If the KIng could choose to allot the land to any high-ranking noble (Count or above, say) it would help keep some Dukes in line or would enable to shift the balance of power between Houses.

What if an avatar who dies has no son of age yet ? Can the future heir be named in the will ? Will a steward be named until the avatar appears in game ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Why retrain the King to picking the successor from the deceased Duke' s House ? If the KIng could choose to allot the land to any high-ranking noble (Count or above, say) it would help keep some Dukes in line or would enable to shift the balance of power between Houses.

---

I think the intention is to maintain the integrity of the House.

Quote:

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What if an avatar who dies has no son of age yet ? Can the future heir be named in the will ? Will a steward be named until the avatar appears in game ?

---

I would say yes to all - the Steward idea is a neat one.

A question of timing on 3 b:

(b). - Gaining and Losing Provinces: All conquered provinces must be ratified by an edict, which can be passed at the session before the conquest or be applied retroactively at the first session after. If a province is not ratified in this manner by the end of the very next session after it was made, it must be given away or abandoned. While a province is not ratified taxes must be set to the highest level possible and no recruitment can be made in that settlement. Any province conquered and ratified becomes part of the King's Demesne. At the time of conquest, the conquering Noble can refuse to hand the province over to the King, but this puts him in a state of Civil War with the King. The King can be prevented from giving any province in the Demesne to another Noble by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council.

The wording appears to suggest that a conquered province doesn't enter the King's domain until it is ratified, but ratification can take place after the fact. Thus if a noble conquers a province that wasn't ratified in advance shouldn't he have the option to wait until the ratification process to decide if he will allow it to become a part of the King's domain?

Otherwise we wind up in a position where the King can act to prevent ratification because he knows the noble in question will not submit the province to him, thus forcing the province to be abandoned.

Does that all follow?

:egypt:

I did think of that. I was worried that with the requirement that the Noble hang around his newly taken province if he wants to avoid a handover it might be tough on them. If something called them away from the province and they couldn't reach it... I suppose that's something they should have to plan for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

A question of timing on 3 b:

The wording appears to suggest that a conquered province doesn't enter the King's domain until it is ratified, but ratification can take place after the fact. Thus if a noble conquers a province that wasn't ratified in advance shouldn't he have the option to wait until the ratification process to decide if he will allow it to become a part of the King's domain?

Otherwise we wind up in a position where the King can act to prevent ratification because he knows the noble in question will not submit the province to him, thus forcing the province to be abandoned.

Does that all follow?

:egypt:

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

Cecil, I think independent was understood to mean not in a House and so would not apply to a Duke.

On the wider issues of wills, I'd like to advocate the half-way house on wills that Ignoramus suggested: allow nobles to bequeath their land to their sons (natural or adopted). I think that is characterful but not so open that it might undermine the House structure. The idea of nobles losing all their land on death to the Duke does seem a bit extreme, but also I can't imagine many nobles actually leaving land to random others who were not their sons.

Something like:

(d) - Wills & Inheritance: When a King dies, all land in his demesne is passed to the new King. A noble can pass on his rank to his eldest son and bequeath his land to his son in a valid will. Dukes may pass on their rank and personal demense to any noble in their House in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House. If a lower ranked noble dies without a will, his land passes to the Duke or to the King if he is not in a House.

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I agree with this. It will cause problems RPing a feudal system if there is no hereditary system for inheritance. If there is no son (natural or adopted) or son-in-law, the Noble could certainly leave a will indicating his preference, but the King could choose to ignore it and give it to someone else (for more IC entertainment). This would also be a further encouragement for RBGs to get themselves onto the family tree, as they cannot establish any kind of legacy of their own without doing so.

One note on the above wording, however: I very much recommend that the word demesne not be used in any way except to refer to the King's lands. In the entire rest of the rule set, that's the only thing it refers to. Adding in that reference in relation to someone who is not the King is likely to result in confusion down the road.

What word should be used instead? Holdings?

What's wrong with provinces? Why are a Duke's provinces any different than a Count's when it comes to describing them?

No, that's fine. Didn't know there was already a logical candidate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

I did think of that. I was worried that with the requirement that the Noble hang around his newly taken province if he wants to avoid a handover it might be tough on them. If something called them away from the province and they couldn't reach it... I suppose that's something they should have to plan for.

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I don't think it was clear what I was trying to say:

If you conquer a province you must, under the rules, immediately declare whether or not you will allow it to become a part of the King's domain. If you conquer a province which isn't yet ratified by an edict (Something I expect to happen fairly often) that declaration could give the King ample time to block the province's ratification, leaving a noble at war with the King over something he no longer can possess under the rules.

My suggestion is simply that the province's conqueror need not declare his willingness to hand over the province until the process of ratification is complete. If it is completed beforehand then at the time of conquest, but if ratification comes after then the noble need only declare after ratification is assured. If the province is not ratified then no one need know the noble's intent.

This is more logical and lets people be sneaky.

Alternately let the declaration of war with the King by refusing to hand over control void the necessity of the ratification process, so that the noble automatically gets possession of the land. This provides incentive to go to war, and is, naturally, my preferred option. :laugh4:

:egypt:

The King has two powers related to unit priortisation:

(5) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
and
(15) Can prioritize 5 units per term.

Is this as designed, ensuring that a new King can still priortize at least 5 units? Or is it a typo?

Overknight That's definitely a mistake. 5 units was intended. Thanks for pointing it out.

Ramses II CP I know what you meant. :clown: My thinking when I had made that rule was that it would be easiest to declare if you're refusing to hand over the province right away, since you have to stick around to keep it from defaulting to the king. Otherwise in the intervening turns something might take you away from that province, leaving the noble too far away to avoid the autodefault...

I hadn't taken into account that the King could then try something sneaky. I guess I had been thinking that the noble declaring he was keeping the province left it in a sort of limbo. If the issue would be resolved, ratification would be easy. If it wasn't, it would remain his through the session to the next one. Not only is the latter one not explicit in the rules, but the first assumption could very well prove incorrect in most instances. I'd add that to the list of things to change.

Editted rules to allow Nobles to choose any unit available in their settlements when choosing prioritized units.

Could someone point out to me which of points 5 or 15 do apply ? They seem redundant and specify different numbers

King:
Requirements: Must be the in-game faction leader.
Influence: Equal to Authority stat.
Powers:
(1) Can propose an unlimited number of Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for all settlements in the King's Demesne. Can destroy any building in those settlements and can rename any of them at any time.
(3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions.
(4) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
(5) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
(6) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason.
(7) Can veto one Edict or Amendment per 3 ranks of Authority.
(8) Decides which noble, if any, a Princess should marry.
(9) Can allocate all newly conquered land, or let it remain within the King's Demesne if he wishes.
(10) Once during his reign, the King may automatically assume the post of Seneschal for a single term. The King must declare that he is exercising that right at a Council Session; He will then be appointed Seneschal with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the King can also compete in normal Seneschal elections.
(11) Can ban Nobles from a Council Session. Banned Nobles cannot speak or propose legislations, but they are permitted to vote.
(12) Can adjudicate on disputes regarding Edicts and Codex Amendments. However, if a dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Seneschal will be the adjudicator.
(13) Can rename the faction at any time.
(14) Can move the Capital at any time, as long as the new Capital is within the King's Demesne.
(15) Can prioritize 5 units per term.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other feudal rank except that of Seneschal.
(2) Cannot swear an Oath of Fealty to another Senator and cannot have any Vassals.
Inheritance: On the death of a King, all Oaths of Fealty pertaining to the Noble who is now King are instantly broken, with no penalties. The new King takes control of any provinces in the King's Demesne, as well as retaining those under his control at the time of his ascension. If he was Duke of his House, his named heir for that post attains the rank. In the absence of a named heir, the second in charge of the House becomes Duke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Could someone point out to me which of points 5 or 15 do apply ? They seem redundant and specify different numbers

King:
Requirements: Must be the in-game faction leader.
Influence: Equal to Authority stat.
Powers:
(1) Can propose an unlimited number of Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
(2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for all settlements in the King's Demesne. Can destroy any building in those settlements and can rename any of them at any time.
(3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions.
(4) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
(5) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
(6) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason.
(7) Can veto one Edict or Amendment per 3 ranks of Authority.
(8) Decides which noble, if any, a Princess should marry.
(9) Can allocate all newly conquered land, or let it remain within the King's Demesne if he wishes.
(10) Once during his reign, the King may automatically assume the post of Seneschal for a single term. The King must declare that he is exercising that right at a Council Session; He will then be appointed Seneschal with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the King can also compete in normal Seneschal elections.
(11) Can ban Nobles from a Council Session. Banned Nobles cannot speak or propose legislations, but they are permitted to vote.
(12) Can adjudicate on disputes regarding Edicts and Codex Amendments. However, if a dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Seneschal will be the adjudicator.
(13) Can rename the faction at any time.
(14) Can move the Capital at any time, as long as the new Capital is within the King's Demesne.
(15) Can prioritize 5 units per term.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other feudal rank except that of Seneschal.
(2) Cannot swear an Oath of Fealty to another Senator and cannot have any Vassals.
Inheritance: On the death of a King, all Oaths of Fealty pertaining to the Noble who is now King are instantly broken, with no penalties. The new King takes control of any provinces in the King's Demesne, as well as retaining those under his control at the time of his ascension. If he was Duke of his House, his named heir for that post attains the rank. In the absence of a named heir, the second in charge of the House becomes Duke.

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Great minds think alike:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OverKnight

The King has two powers related to unit priortisation:

(5) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can prioritize a total of 8 units per full 10 turn Seneschal term.
and
(15) Can prioritize 5 units per term.

Is this as designed, ensuring that a new King can still priortize at least 5 units? Or is it a typo?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

Overknight That's definitely a mistake. 5 units was intended. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Major rules edit:

-TinCow's edits incorporated.
-Additional minor proofreading and editting done.
-Draft system added
-Ability added for GM to recruit AI stacks, not meant to be used often (although AI factions will be buffed at the beginning of the game, mostly to offset the huge advantage in RGBs we have at the start...
-Dual prioritization lines under King's powers fixed.

The rules are in their more or less final draft. The Council is set to start Monday morning (sometime after 12 AM PST). The next two days, among other things, will be used to resolve and remaining rules issues.

Does anyone think I should just change all uses of the term "House" to "Duchy"? Or is that not generic enough in case someone tries to start a military order like in LOTR?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

Does anyone think I should just change all uses of the term "House" to "Duchy"? Or is that not generic enough in case someone tries to start a military order like in LOTR?

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I think it is fine as is, for the reason you specified above if not others we may or may not foresee.

I agree, leave it as House. Nobles can swear oaths to non-Dukes. Thus, we could get groups of lords and vassals that have a feudal relationship, but are not in a Duchy. There are also many, many different roleplaying reasons that people would want to call their group something other than Duchy of XXXX.

I know it is last minute, but I think we need to add something to the rules to make our concept of who leads an army match the computers. Specifically, in 1 (c), we have:

Quote:

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A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle.

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The problem is that the computer will assign army leadership to general with the highest command stars (let's call him player A), not the one who IC is the leader (typically the most senior feudal rank - player B). Consequently, player B will fight a battle, but player A will get any resulting traits. This just seems wrong - player B should get any traits from the victory. Furthermore, a dreadful/chivalrous player B may lower/raise player A's chivalry when deciding what to do with the prisoners/captured settlement etc. Again, this is topsy-turvey.

In the KotR rules, we let the computer's choice of the general be the one to fight the battle (ie player A). But later on we altered that to allow household armies be led by their politically designated leaders (player B). However, that did not cause much of an issue, as by the time we had household armies, our avatars were spread across many settlements and typically the politically more senior general also had a ton of command stars (so the player B was also the player A).

But with KotF, we are starting with many recruitable generals in a few settlements and the equivalent of five household armies, so we can expect a number of RBGs to be stacked in a given army. Furthermore, some of the politically more senior generals (the non-royal Dukes) have pretty mediocre command stats. IIRC, they typically have one star whereas a number of the RBGs have four stars. I'm also thinking of a possible Order of the Fleurs Lys stack in the future, where the general would be the one elected Captain for that term rather than the one with the highest command.

If we leave the rules as they are - with the IC leadership and the computer leadership mismatched - we may well get some undesirable player interactions whereby Dukes prefer to fight alone or kick high command subordinates from battles.

What I propose is that we use the console to make the computer's choice for who leads the army the same as ours. That is to say, we give the army stack leader (player B) sufficient traits to have more command stars than his subordinates. So I propose we add in to 1(b)

Quote:

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The GM will use the console to give the avatar leading the army more command stars than any other avatar in the stack. Any bonus traits given this way will be withdrawn as soon as they are unnecessary.

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The way I suggest we do this is through the NaturalMilitarySkill trait, as this should be able to give most commanders up to 4 more stars, which should be enough. I suggest this trait rather than any other, as it seems to be largely triggered on birth, adoption, marriage and coming of age rather than through battle events. If we use some of the traits with battle-related triggers, we may have a problem messing up any post-battle traits awarded (e.g. making someone a great general pushes up the threshold for them to get another command star).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trait NaturalMilitarySkill
Characters family

Level Talent_for_Command
Description Talent_for_Command_desc
EffectsDescription Talent_for_Command_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect Command 1

Level Natural_Commander
Description Natural_Commander_desc
EffectsDescription Natural_Commander_effects_desc
Threshold 2

Effect Command 2

Level Born_to_Command
Description Born_to_Command_desc
EffectsDescription Born_to_Command_effects_desc
Threshold 3

Effect Command 3

Level Born_Conqueror
Description Born_Conqueror_desc
EffectsDescription Born_Conqueror_effects_desc
Threshold 4

Effect Command 4

I realise doing this gives us a bit of an edge of the AI, but I understand that - outside of autocalc - command stars only affect morale in the locality of the general. They do not raise attack and defense stats like in some earlier TW games (e.g. MTW). Honestly, I don't think we need worry too much about the morale of our men near our generals - if we lose, typically it will be because we messed up and/or are grossly outmatched rather than because our troops' morale wavered at a critical point. I am much more worried about the implications of a player A vs player B mismatch than a small edge over the AI.

If we implement this change, then over time, console usage should be less important. The Dukes will quickly gain command stars and overtake the RBGs without requiring extra traits from the GM. The natural military strategy trait can then be clawed back using the console. But unless we initially rig it so that they are treated as the commanding general by the computer, the Dukes will not be able to pick up command stars from battles involving more talented subordinates and will never take off as avatars despite their players having to fight all the battles.

An alternative workaround might be to make any players in a stack with a higher command than the leader enter as reinforcements (ie kick them from the stack but leave them adjacent). But given our willingness to use the console for stuff like getting rid of unwanted ancillaries, I think resorting to the console may be a neater fix. (Separating out some RBGs may only be possible in offensive battles - in defensive ones, we may be taken by surprise and unable to organise it.)

We could agree to stay with the status quo and resolve the player A/player B discrepancies in character - initially mediocre Dukes may decide to sideline talented commanders and keep them out of battles. That's historically not unprecedented. It's plausible that sometimes a talented subordinate might get the praise (traits) for a victory rather than their mediocre boss. However, on balance, I think a little console usage might be better than such role-playing contortions. Certainly, I can't see much of a rationale for the talented subordinate rather than the commander getting chivalry/dread from the commander's post battle acts.

I think you've misunderstood the rule. The "player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle" IS the player that the game chooses as the leader. There is no IC/OOC split in that rule, the person who shows up as the leader when the battle appears in-game is always the person that fights the battle. That's how it worked in LotR, and KotF 1(c) is a direct copy of the same rule in LotR, marked there as 1.3.

On reread, I see I misread your post. However, I dislike using the console for all of this. There is a very simple solution to this problem: if you want to fight the battle yourself, don't merge your army with an avatar that has a higher command rating. If you absolutely MUST have that other avatar coming along, just park them outside of the stack before the battle so that they join in as reinforcements.

Yes but I guess that means we will remove RBG's and have them coming on as reinforcements to ensure the correct person is "leading".

I was just going to have all the young bucks in a stack by themselves, which is option 2 in your system econ. If we get attacked and are on the defensive then simply let the AI decide and hand over the battles to the appropriate player.

In this way at least on the defensive some of the guy's will get a shot at battles.

I would prefer not to use the console as you suggested econ.

I want to unstrike TinCow's initial reply:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I think you've misunderstood the rule. The "player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle" IS the player that the game chooses as the leader. There is no IC/OOC split in that rule, the person who shows up as the leader when the battle appears in-game is always the person that fights the battle. That's how it worked in LotR, and KotF 1(c) is a direct copy of the same rule in LotR, marked there as 1.3.

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OK, thanks - I think I did misunderstand the rule - so 1(c) should be interpreted such that the person leading the army is the player the game chooses as the leader? I'd assumed that since one player owned a stack, he would also be the one to fight the battle. But if we are going with the computer's pick, then there is no issue of one avatar getting traits or chivalry/dread for another player's actions. If there is a resistance to using the console - and I understand that - Dukes will have to use reinforcements as AG says.

I honestly do not see an issue with the computer selecting the person with the highest command as the one to fight the battle. Again, instead of making another rule for it, I'd rather go for handling it IC - maybe the Duke decided that he would have another act as his Adjutant General for the battle, or that the Duke decides that one of his officers could be used "elsewhere" and promptly removes him from the stack, creating IC tension as to why.

Using the reserve stack for RGB's, while not sexy is a much simpler way than the level of intervention needed to overcome this in game mechanism.

It balances out very soon with a few battles and creates some interesting IC relations.

I would say one more thing.

These rules need to be ratified and posted formally before the council starts.

The rules are finished.

Also, the Council already started. :clown:

I'll do the rules/faq thread right now.

Yeah I saw that after I posted. :egypt:

I'm not fast enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

On reread, I see I misread your post. However, I dislike using the console for all of this. There is a very simple solution to this problem: if you want to fight the battle yourself, don't merge your army with an avatar that has a higher command rating. If you absolutely MUST have that other avatar coming along, just park them outside of the stack before the battle so that they join in as reinforcements.

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That's my suggestion as well. It will be a while before we have armies of 20 units.