I don't think I make it a habit of trying to lynch GH on day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by seireikhaan
This is literally the worst day one I can recall ever seeing from GH. Painful to hear I'm sure, but it's the truth.
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I don't think I make it a habit of trying to lynch GH on day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by seireikhaan
This is literally the worst day one I can recall ever seeing from GH. Painful to hear I'm sure, but it's the truth.
This is the equivalent of me suggesting a no-lynch on d1 of one of those swords and d20s games which made more than one person scum read me legitimately without a cop result before n1 began. It's like an ultra rare occurrence.
So there's a ton of time remaining.
@GH
My vote is persuadable, believe it or not. Especially given Jarema. But you've dinged yourself a lot of believability points when you said I was tunneling you.
If you'd like to do more for your survival than simply suggest a counterwagon, may want to talk to me like I'm not crazy and you're also not crazy. Offer's on the table.
How were you not tunneling me? How are you still not tunneling me? You're tunneling on the fact that you're not tunneling me.
No really though, Jarema's a much better lynch. The passive aggressive response to a bunch of nonsense was.... really weird coming from him.
GH, on the other hand, is clearly trying to get in the mindset of the mindless spambot that apparently comprises the entirety of the offsite mafia games wesentencednominated him for. Need I remind y'all, it's still day 1. Mafia GH would've just yolo'd out of here after a couple posts and let pizza continue to construct his great wall of pizzaboxes and spam. The case against him is entirely stupid and consists of.... worried about him being worried about mafiauniverse or whatever being a huge spam fest? And then rightfully accusing pizza of tunneling... when pizza is/was tunneling? There's one actually worrisome post from him pointing out he'd be off for a bit(something he does basically all the time as mafia) but also has been done a couple times at least as town too, so I'd call that less strong of an indication than Jarema.
Seriously, don't lynch GH day 1.
Hell no.
Nope, that's a bunch of crap and I'm not moving off of GH now.
I'm always lynching Jarema day 2 or today if GH isn't the option, but both GH's behavior and Khaan's nonsense just then seals it.
Yeah, I don't get why Khaan is defending GH that strongly unless they're scumbuddies, mason partners, or Khaan has a N0 peak and used it on GH. GH's posts just don't feel right to me, so I don't get why town Khaan would get a town read of GH unless masons or cops or something.
Vote: GeneralHankerchief
That is not what tunneling is.
Then enlighten me, O Enlightened One(s).
atpg has not been tunneling ghQuote:
Tunnel - Tunnelling or to "tunnel" someone is to very strongly push for one specific person's lynch without being willing to reevaluate or consider others. "OMG, stop tunnelling me, Cory.". Sometimes also referred to as trolley tracking.
i think it's weird you're accusing atpg specifically of tunneling you
Khaan's response was exceptionally poor coming from "the cop". There's no way Khaan is cop with a night zero peek on GH.
Cops don't claim that they're worried about posts their peek had made. If GH is town, and Khaan is "the cop", then cop play on the org has fallen way behind the times. The bottom line, where it says don't lynch GH "day 1" is also an unnecessary addition. That implies it would be fine to lynch him later on. I see nothing from either GH or Khaan that makes me want to put it off.Quote:
GH, on the other hand, is clearly trying to get in the mindset of the mindless spambot that apparently comprises the entirety of the offsite mafia games we <s>sentenced</s> nominated him for. Need I remind y'all, it's still day 1. Mafia GH would've just yolo'd out of here after a couple posts and let pizza continue to construct his great wall of pizzaboxes and spam. The case against him is entirely stupid and consists of.... worried about him being worried about mafiauniverse or whatever being a huge spam fest? And then rightfully accusing pizza of tunneling... when pizza is/was tunneling? There's one actually worrisome post from him pointing out he'd be off for a bit(something he does basically all the time as mafia) but also has been done a couple times at least as town too, so I'd call that less strong of an indication than Jarema.
Seriously, don't lynch GH day 1.
Correct cop play would be to ask the pizza guy to trust Khaan, and go for the also likely to be guilty Jarema. That would have been an easy argument. Khaan defending GH's play is weird, and doesn't read like a cop with a peek either. And I don't believe in masons here either. Because, again, there's nothing "worrisome" about posts made by either your n0 peek or your mason partner.
You can safely toss both ideas, short of a hard claim. And it had better be quick, because I'm not budging if there isn't sufficient time to talk about it.
...he's been doing exactly that though...
If you can't figure out why I'm defending GH over Jarema, then I have no further words for you.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/icons/icon14.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by seireikhaan
Persuasive.
Am I going to have to do your homework for you?
You're worse than Visor.
no he hasn't... he's been more than willing to consider other candidates. For most of the day he's been pushing Jarrema. Voting or pushing someone does not mean you're tunneling them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
I also don't get why you're specifically accusing pizza of tunneling you, and not me?
You guys know the definition of tunneling isn't "a townie suspects a townie" right?
Can we agree on that much?!? Am I wasting my breath here? If you're going to brick wall me, there is no happy outcome today.
Just a bunch of really upset villagers and a happy mafia team.
Go ahead and replace me, Sooh. I'm entirely done with this game. Later.
Hey, I got plenty of other places to be. If I don't get a real time response I'm not going to keep hanging around.
Pizza, here's what the past day or so has looked like from *my* POV:
ATPG: GH I think you might be scum but you can convince me otherwise
GH: *says literally anything*
ATPG: You're not helping your case there buddy, now you're far more likely to be scum
So you'll excuse me if I'm going to stick to my guns on this.
Vote count:
AdmiralKleenex (2) - GH, johnhughthom
GH (6) - AdmiralKleenex, Raith Kemmler, El Barto, Golden1Knight, Askthepizzaguy, Choxorn
Visor (1) - Jarema
Jarema (5) - Visor, Al Sips, edse, Punisher, seireikhaan
johnhughthom (1) - Double A
Not voting: atheotes, BSmith
Okay, let me tell you what it looked like from my POV.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
I see a GH that would rather talk about anything else, or say nothing, than look for scums. It's whatever. I could tell you what you said in particular that looked scummy. I don't suppose it matters.
The bottom line is, it's not tunneling when:
1) I have other suspects
2) I would have rather lynched that other suspect for most of the day
3) I keep asking you questions and offering to talk it out, and you'd mostly rather just sit there spitting out one liners and not solving.
Tunneling is not the same thing as suspecting you. When you say that, and it's not appropriate for the context of the game, it doesn't match my reality, and when things don't match my reality I get suspicious.
This is all normal suspicion and nothing extraordinary is going on.
Now then, as it happens, I'd still be of two minds about what to do going forward. But I don't know if I should bother thinking about the game too carefully. Don't know if there's anything I can offer to the game right now that would be positive. But the spirit is still willing, if there were anyone on the other end of this conversation willing to move forward. Let me know what you'd rather do next.
THERE'S NOTHING TO SOLVE
IT'S DAY ONE
:daisy:
Let's suppose I'd be willing to take things at face value. An innocent GH universe.
If you want to look at that universe, I'm sure it would be more productive. But I also don't want to wait around forever for responses, so if real time isn't likely I just wanna take a break.
Okay, got that out of the way. More reasonable post to follow.
So? It may be true that there's rarely anything of significant substance on Day One, but "rarely" isn't "never."Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
For instance, I think making posts like this makes you look scummy, and this is one of those rare cases where we can be confident of a scumread on day 1.
*throws a plate of spaghetti against the wall*Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
So we disagree strongly on strategy on day one! Yay!
Somehow I'd still like to do something good today.
'khaan, are you all right?Quote:
Originally Posted by seireikhaan
How many of you have been sitting and watching this unfold? Just curious.
I haven't, I've just read the last 50-100 posts and noticed how 'khaan simply balked. GH is still scummy to me, and you haven't answered my question of why Jarrema can die in a fire. (and also why you don't like me but that can be a carryover from my extremely kawaii antics on CFC)
El Barto- I adore you as a person and a player.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Barto
I felt several of your opening posts were scummy. That's all it meant. It was mild and vague.
AORN: Not sure. I wouldn't call you a villager yet. But if I were to look at a universe where somehow GH and Khaan or Khaan-slot and myself and my n0 peek and Visor and yourself, let's say, were all villagers, the game becomes much simpler.
Jarema always gets lynched today, and I might go choxorn after that, or peek him.
What we have here is a case of people judging me by their standards when they should be judging me by my standards.
We've all made the "lol GH is older than the dinosaurs" type of jokes when nominating me to the championships, but there's truth behind those statements, and you all know I'm pretty stuck in my ways. One of those ways is me taking the first couple of rounds to really warm up in a game and take it all in. Well, that was the case on the .Org for years and years.
It was also the case for a while during the revival starting last year. But at a certain point, this changed. I think it was Visor's Snake Cult game where he brought in a lot of folks from outside. And then, pressing down hard on the gas right from the start became the new normal. People are now demanding reads lists and slapping themselves on the back for getting cases down on Day Friggin One. And that's just not how I operate.
I was able to slide by it for a while, but after the nomination, I know what's in store for me. So I'm trying to adjust. And when people like Zack and you are asking me what I think about the state of the game and making me do stuff I'm far more used to doing (and am far more comfortable with doing) in the endgame on Day Friggin One, of course it's going to sound artificial. Because I have one of two options in these types of scenarios:
Option 1) Come up with cases on people, and have it stand out because the cases are forced.
Option 2) Tell the truth, admit you have no reads, and then come under fire because seeing town/null reads left and right is a classic scumtell, and is, as a matter of fact, what did me in the most recent game before this one.
So yeah, I'm a bit uncomfortable right now, and I'm slightly more than a bit exasperated at this turn of events because I'm trying, but it's obviously not enough.
Now, I could lie to you right now and say that I have a case on somebody right now. That I've done my reads, that I've even attempted to do my reads, and here's what I have down so far. Or, I could tell you the truth and say I have jack squat.
Well, I have jack squat. Right now.
The choice is now up to you to determine how to react to this. This time, you're the one who has two options:
Option 1) Lynch me, wait for me to flip town, and lose my voice for the rest of the game because of the "no talking after death" rule, which I also hate but we'll leave that one for another time.
Option 2) Leave me alive and wait for me to do my own thing at my own pace.
You forget that the times may have changed, but I haven't. Not yet. Judge me on me and not the meta.
@ GH
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by seireikhaan
gh, I think you misunderstand the point of all this. While yeah, d1 reads are going to be mostly crap, it's nice to be able to look back at those reads on later days, especially where spew is concerned (i.e. a dead scumbag's reads and thoughts on d1 can be really nice information to have).
and while finding scum d1 is lol, clearing townies is a very real thing and viable straight from d1.
SqueeeeQuote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Scummy for being scummy or for not being scummy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
OK, right, but… why Jarrema?Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
btw who/what's AORN?
Eeeehhhh? This makes very little sense if any at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
aorn = as of right now
I am composing a post for you, GH. I'll put a tl;dr in it.
Mmkay.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
sigh of reliefQuote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
D'you think Pizza'll ever get the hang of using spoiler tags?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Response to quoted-
I did read it all, and that is mostly fine and good. I have some issues with it, because reasons- Namely, you have been more engaged and looked for more villagers in a previous game not that long ago, as I just said. But, I'm going to call a mercy rule on this. People gettin' irritated, let me just say I've been in situations where villagers were a lot more tunnelly and uncooperative than this game. By leaps and bounds. And it was probably the single biggest weakness of those towns. There has to be a point where everyone realizes nothing is getting done by going in circles. So my position on things are- I think GH looks different and there are real reasons why people could honestly think he's scummy, I think Jarema acted scummy, I didn't totally buy Khaan's defense of GH. And I still have issues with what you're saying right now.
But all of that means very little because, the points have been made, they are what they are. And nothing more will be helpful whether those opinions are correct, or incorrect. Basically, it will just lead to damaging the game more. So, mercy rule means I'm not going to say you're suspicious. Now all I want to talk about is the universe where you're innocent. I don't know if I can really put Khaan in that universe as also innocent, and I don't want to let sub-related stuff impact the game. But for the sake of convenience let's say I put Khaan-slot in that same category of innocent, despite my misgivings about how he chose to defend you.
Then what does the picture of the game look like?
I think Visor is villagery enough. He's on enough villagers' town lists that he's probably on the mafia's villager lists.
I'm not lynching Punisher.
You don't lynch, in that universe-
Askthepizzaguy
Punisher
GH
Khaan-slot
Visor
That's a start.
(IF) Jarema is guilty, those pushing him immediately look great.
(IF) Jarema is innocent, choxorn looks bad because of his vote pattern and what he's choosing to comment on. It's weak but it's something notable.
Issue with lynching Jarema if he's innocent- we learn nothing. Yes, we lynched a scummy townie. And we saved a not-scum GH. By killing a townie.
So what if we just lynched a scum today instead?
TL;DR
Who would people suggest is scum in the universe where Pizza, Punisher, GH, Khaan, Visor, AND Jarema are innocent?
Let's play the game of we're extremely wrong. What does the game look like then?
If you play that game and it's right, somehow the game becomes probably the most productive and badass day one for village ever, despite the sloppiness of how we got there.
Only issue with that game:
If Jarema is guilty, you won't be able to resolve my slot except by lynch, because I proposed this idea. And it can be argued I used any excuse to lynch GH instead of Jarema despite scum-reading Jarema repeatedly.
It's a risk I'd be willing to take. I just want to know if my fellow villagers are equally daring.
khaan was obviously defending gh as a friend. I don't get why that's so hard to see, I'd appreciate if people stop pretending it was alignment-indicative in any way.
I'd be totally fine with just lynching the scummiest lurker.
I'd be inclined to play it that way regardless of whether I think it's true or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
Runs into a lot of the same problems if that person is a villager. I have a super secret villager inside the people who haven't posted very much that I don't want lynched either.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
I don't know and I'm not going to think about it. :laugh4: If you can accept that, at least for Day One, then I think we've come to an agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
This is a good idea and I can get behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack
Pretend it's not d1. The stubborn refusal to contribute because "it's day ONE" is irritating.
I'll contribute in my own way, don't force me down one path out of many.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
Look, we've got different ideas on how to approach the game.
We don't have to be a well oiled machine here. We don't have to agree on everything, we don't even have to like the compromise.
But I would suggest the folks here who are present and in a big dispute about how to proceed should compromise.
And the compromise is finding someone to vote for. We can pick up the differences in theory discussion in postgame.
Agreed?
Compromise proposal:
Lynch choxorn
If you don't like that idea
Lynch Jarema
If you don't like that idea, suggest another. But let's avoid lynching the people who are completely absent.
Can we do this?
Sure.
What do we think about edse's reaction to Jarema and the requisite vote?
I'll have to take a look. Gimme sec
That can happen, but I'm more worried about his asking for a replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
Really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I've got my response ready to go, but am curious where Zack stands.
Zack how do you feel about edse?
I have a magic bag full of goodies this game. I can clear a lot of people it would seem.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Barto
I already implied he was my scummiest null read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
This is edse's entire contribution to play
Pro-Quote:
Originally Posted by edse
If Jarema is guilty, edse is lock clear, it takes a clear stand, gives a reason.
Con-
If Jarema is innocent, this is an easy enough vote. Edse can be scum here, but it's not a lock.
I'm looking at Jarema innocent universe as a possibility, I don't know if I want to get rid of someone who would be lock clear if Jarema were guilty, based on only this vote. Especially when Jarema-guilty universe looks very likely in a vacuum.
Zack agreeing to lynch Edse today if edse is guilty would be really good for Zack, who I'd otherwise have trouble clearing.
Ok my brain didn't copy that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
I think edse-guilty universe and edse lynch d1 results in live clear townies and a probable town win.
Edse innocent universe is pretty bad tho. I also don't know how to feel confident that's the way to go. It's not like today was that unusual for edse.
I don't like to lynch someone who can potentially be lock cleared by Jarema's guilty flip.
In turn, I wouldn't want to lynch inside of GH and Zack who would also be really clear due to edse's guilty flip.
Is there someone who we have even less information on?
Lemme guess: you've peeked on Jarrema n0 and that's why you insist on lynching him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
Is it just my fever, or is there a contradiction between someone being a null read and their being scummy?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
No, I won't get that fancy.
If I say we can lynch someone, that's not a lie.
I've had to deal with too much fancy seer garbage that almost always destroys towns that I promise in an OOG way that I'd never fricking do that to the people I like playing games with. I won't even do it to the people I don't play games with.
I won't give a guilty peek on a villager as the real cop. I also won't say we can lynch my peeks. That's bs and I think we all know it.
We never know anything about John. Not a revealing flip without some wagons ahoy, but he's a pretty grand 'that guy' to take out in a pinch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
I might be building a bridge too far here with some of the worlds I'm constructing.
To get us all on the same page-
Let's say someone claims cop with an innocent result on X.
Let's say someone counterclaims cop with an innocent result on Y.
Cop 1 or Cop 2 might be guilty. X and Y might also be guilty.
But, there's one likely universe where X can be lock cleared. Don't lynch X first, ever. The chances are high that you lose the game, and there's a logically more productive and safe option, even if you lynch outside of the claims.
Basically, find someone who isn't cop1 or cop2 or X or Y, if you were to go that route.
Well, BSmith and edse just have sign up posts. Golden1Knight's only post is a vote for me (no statement to go along with), and Punisher and john have an equal amount of posts as edse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
We could also do Jarema and lock clear a couple of folks.
That's probably viable. He flips guilty, then you are lock clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raith Kemmler
You mean atheotes, not edse, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
Mmm, we're getting some good intel from this exercise regardless. But there will be diminishing returns if it continues.
Why not choxorn? Does anyone actually object to choxorn dying, why or why not.
Yeah, meant atheotes.
Lemme do a quick reread of Chox's stuff.
I think that lynching Choxorn is better idea than lynching me.
I also like GH posts about his d1 activity.
Huh, I thought he had more posts.
One joke, one question of why he was defending me so heavily (probably null since he doesn't hang out on this forum as much), and chiming in at the height of my "RARGH IT'S DAY ONE LEAVE ME ALONE" bit an hour or so ago.
Unless you think he's more scummy or his flip lock clears somebody, I'd go for someone else.
I object to choxorn dying aorn.
El Barto
Help me solve you, point at a scumbag and suggest we lynch there right now. Make it someone who isn't Jarema, GH, me, or a 0 or 1 poster.
Whether we follow your advice or not, and I might do so on a whim, it would be helpful. Shoot in the dark, what do you hit?
@Jarema
Was that a vote? If so you might want to format it properly and perhaps unvote just to be safe.
@Zack
I'm listening, why do you object?
choxorn seems town to me.
Isoing Zack atm
Starting to think Visor might have been right.
I feel like there is a wolf in {GeneralHankerchief, Askthepizzaguy, Visor}.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralKleenex
Unvote
Vote: AdmiralKleenex
Hard claim Mason
Not a fake claim
I am asking for villagers to follow me for day 1
what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy