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I don't won't to sound rude, but the myth of a "barbarian horde" is just that: a myth. A myth invented by the Romans and alike, to justify the several defeats they suffered at their hands. A myth, not historical fact. Therefore, It doesn't belong in this MOD. Case closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Rusher
Well it's probably not wrong to assume that the majority of the sources that we have for this time period is from Roman means so the end-all naming chart would be in Latin. I would like to have the native toungue for each of the seperate Provinces, hell - I'd rather every single Province be in the native tongue of the faction you're playing at the time, but that probably won't happen. As it is - how many provinces are there that we know the 'non-Latin" name of? Would it be better to have all Latin? or a few non-Latin and the ones we aren't sure of to keep in Latin?
LOL :grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRunner
Like Viriato and Sertório? Maybe... :wink: ...just maybe!! :grin2:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRunner
200 years of insubmission complemented with several great military victories, including the complete anihilation of several Roman legions, isn't exactly a temporary victory. It was a fact during the lifespan of many human lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRunner
However, in game terms, a Lusitanii faction is an incertainity. Presently, an impossibility, because we still can't add factions. In the future, maybe, but only Hardcore players will be able to keep that faction afloat. Meanwhile, we'll include Lusitanii units (4), in a united Iberian faction (it happened a few times during Viriato's time).
Don't worry. Oleander Ardens isn't going to implement a map like this, without this having been discussed VERY thouroughly with EVERYONE of us. Besides, only Dead Moroz has heard it. I won't let one people's lapse get in the way of everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by chemchok
Hey, Dead Moroz!! ~:wave: Are you pulling our leg about this?
hi all! Excelent mod you guys are working for what I've seen so far! ~:cheers:
One of the first things that totally revolted me in RTW was the inaccuracy regarding some of the 'barbarian' units (and consequently carthaginian troops) from those ancient days... especially the iberian troops since I haven't played the other 'barbarian' nations still ... though I can guess. This mod will hopefully correct it and so I'm truly excited about the development of your work.
Just a couple of details from what I read so far. I read completely both the threads here and in the ' colosseum' (what a romanised name for the rtw forum btw.. i always destroy the colosseums in my campaigns in name of the thousands of slaves humiliated and killed in those arenas ;) ), and a couple of inaccuracies jumped right at my eyes! Without offense Khelvan, since I concur with most of what you said and suggested, you're wrong when you say this:
"Unfortunately, using your source, this would place the adoption of the pila well past Livy (c. 240 BC)." - khelvan
You repeat several times to defend your argument Livy's quotes suposing he wrote around 240BC..... Livy was born in 64 BC and died in 12 AD! He based lot of his writings in Polybius so how could he be prior to him?! Unless you're talking of a different Livy. So I totally am with Aymar that, just like the gladius was adopted from the Iberian falcata... so was the pilum from the Iberian soliferra.
And it is this last detail (the admitance of this Iberian gear superiority), together with the several defeats that these upgraded legions suffered against numerically inferior foes using that same gear (though for some long now and thus more experienced) that I was totally revolted to see the "Iberian Infantry" and "Iberian Scutarii" with such lousy stats ~:confused:
Among those Iberians there was a leader that managed to do what many (or all) nations didn't during the blitzkrieg of the roman republic post-pw2... the Lusitanians under the invincible Viriato managed to conquer back almost the whole of Iberia in a 7 year or so streak only stoping at the coast and allowing the romans to keep some their coastal cities since the romans decided to accept the peace Viriato offered them (11 of the 13 defeated generals sent were consuls!)... have you heard this?! Romans signing a forced peace treaty where they let go many of their lands? This goes out to show the military submission Viriato and his outnumbered army forced on Rome. The last battle was a battle described by Appian (the roman writer):
"in 140BC [near the end of the campaign started in 148-147BC] they sent the military famous consul Fabius Maximus Servilianus. Ahead of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry he is surprisingly ambushed and defeated by Viriato, who only kills 3000 and captures the rest, who surrendered.
"Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."
Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12
now explain me folks who had the 'hordes' in these battles ~D
Another clear example was the refusal of all italians to sign in the legions going to Iberia since their armies had become the boogey-man and the terror of the population. Then they had to resort to hiring numidians and some elephants and the result was this...
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber...ia_elef_01.jpg
.. more of the same ~:handball:
In conclusion, it wasn't by mistake that one roman leader once said about Iberia... "First to be invaded, last to be dominated". And I might add that hadn't been for the treacherous murder of Viriato a couple of years after he spared a captured roman consular army and its leader, even offering them a peace treaty and safe escort from the enraged pop out of his lands, the Iberian unity might have lasted and the sneaky roman tactics of divide and conquer (just like in Gaul) might have never worked in this land.
Playing as the Macedonians, I relized that they need a bit of help historical wise as well. The one cavalry looks like a Roman, and not one unit has the Boetian helm. Instead they have a floppy hat... ~:confused:
While they aren't as urgent as the rest of the factions, I think they should be evauntauly fixed.
I was thinking about the fact that we only can have 300 units. Now, does that mean that Horse archer, for example is one unit? Or does it count for each faction, since each faction needs a different texture for that unit? If so, mabye we could get around this by elimanating faction colors. That way, the few unit that are shared between factions could just occupy one texture, rather than a whole bunch. This I feel, would also be far more historically acurate...
If you guys read my last post and are interested to know more about this extraordinary soldiers (reckoned by both Carthage and rome as the best merc inf available in their 'world'), here's a more detailed descrition of the Iberian Wars conducted by the romans:
"After the 2nd punic war, in 202 BC, Carthaginians left their Iberian possessions. The romans kept their recently conquered lands but always looked for more. Several roman invasions happened. Besides the roman efforts, they came normally defeated and could not expand much beyond their own land initially, divided in 2 provinces:
[IMG]www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_mapa_hispania_10.gif [/IMG]
Iberia in 197BC
But roman reinforcements kept ariving and from 182 to 179 BC the conquests were significative.
Year------- Romans----Allies
193-------- 6.200------10.400
191-------- 2.201------4.400
189-------- 2.050------8.400
188-------- 0.000------6.400
186--------- 3.200-----21.300
184-------- 4.300------7.500
182-------- 4.200------7.300
181------- 3.200------6.300
Reinforcements sent between 193-181BC, where the romans-allies proportion was not 1-1 anymore, as in the begining of the 2nd punic war
In 179 peace is reestablished by Tiberius Sempronius Grachus. It included peace treaties with the unconquered iberian tribes but it was broke in 154BC, when romans started to sack and predate the (suposedly) allied lands, into the interior of Iberia. Púnico (more than probably from carthaginian origin), leader of the lusitanians (in western Iberia), raised arms against Rome and defeated both provinces’ praetors, first Manlius and later Calpurnius, crushing their armies. This impressive victories caused other iberian tribes to moralize themselves and join the lusitanians in the war against the invading romans. Between those new allies was the city of Numancia, the capital of Celtiberia.
However, Rome was humiliated and wanted revenge against this Púnico. In 153BC, 60.000 men under the consuls Quintus Fulvius Nobilior (30.000 coming purposedly from Rome) and Lucius Mummius arrive in Spain. The roman senate looked at this war as a IndependentIberia vs Rome great war, so no spanish auxiliars from the roman spanish possessions were in this army.
The roman army first attacks and destroys the deserted Segeda, known as 'the town of the pretty ones', whose inhabitants had meanwhile retreated to Numancia, who in their turn started to prepare themselves for the great defense against the aproaching vast roman army. Well, the numantines were one of those who had allied with Púnico and the lusitans as I said above so, before they reached Numancia, the romans are intercepted and again utterly crushed by Púnico, and their royal banners travel all around Iberia, who claims those who had defeated 2 roman armies in a row as their heroes! In this same year of 153BC, and moralised by the previous ocurrences, the Numantines sail out their city, pin, trap and destroy an entire roman legion in the 23rd of August.
At Rome, people couldn't believe what just happened. A smaller bunch of 'barbarians' had just crushed 2 entire roman armies and, after that, as a dessert, completely anihilated another roman legion! Fulvius Nobilior, outraged, still tries to take Numantia with what forces he still manages to gather, but this little town (10000 pop with around 4000 able men) was built in a strong defensive position in a hill, in the borders of river Duero/Douro, and had strong walls. Frustrated, he goes back home and the roman senate orders the recruitment of 2 new legions. But everyone around Italy is unwilling to go to Iberia coz they are terrified of these Iberian warriors who are extremely skilled with their falcatas, strategically impressive, and chop roman legions as never seen before [well, not since Hannibal and his also partially iberian army :)] . So, stunned with this reaction of their own people, the roman senate asks the consul Fulvio to do what he can. Fulvio decides to ask for help to the Numidians who send cavalry and war elephants. As soon as they arrive Numancia with this new army (finally reassembled and also reinforced by some Numidians), he orders the elephants (around 10) to charge the Iberians who did not know how to counter those 'tanks'! Surprisingly, there was one veteran among them who knew what to do: he ordered one of the slingers to aim for the elephant's eyes. These ancient slingers (balearic for the most) were extremely skilled, accurate, and their projectiles were deadly (some roman helmets from Cannae have two holes, one in one out victims of the hardly compressed lead bullets who outranged ancient archers easily). Once the eye of the elephant was hit, he panicked, turned back, and trampled the roman infantry coming behind.... encouraged by this, the Iberians thrown themselves against the remaining disorientated elephants, defeating them and then to the roman infantry who was also crushed. Fulvius, humiliated once again, ran back home.
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber...ia_elef_01.jpg
The Senate couldn't take it no more and, in the spring of 152BC, sends the consul Marco Claudio Marcelo to wage war against the iberians. Marcelo however tries diplomacy instead of war and signs a peace treaty, agreed by the Iberians. The roman Senate however wanted no peace and sends a new consul, Lucio Licino Luculo and orders his consular army to wage war. He attacks the Vaccaeos (a tribe who had nothing to do with the previous wars and did nothing to deserve war) and siege their capital, Cauca. The poor inhabitants deliver their weapons and goods as asked by the romans and surrender. Luculo orders afterwards the assault of the defenseless city and terminates the unarmed population... :furious3: They then proceed to Palencia, a neighbour city, sieging it. Here, however, no unarmed women and children were waiting but, instead, angry men who crushed the roman army and Luculus ran back to Rome.
Luculus, who wanted some booty at all costs, returns soon and starts ravaging the peaceful Vaccaeos' lands once again (poor Vaccaeos). The lusitans come from their western lands in the rescue once again but their great general, Púnico, had meanwhile died during a siege and Caesaros succeeds him. The succeeding consul Mummius, reinforced by yet a new army from Rome and taking advantage of their bright leader’s recent death, attacks the lusitans. Outnumbered and inexperienced, Caesaros leaves his camp and retreats, but suddenly, seeing the disorganized roman pursuit, turns around, sets an ambush and kills another 9000 romans (Mummius still manages to rally 5000 of the fleeing rest). Not only he recovers his camp and booty but also the once captured roman standards, who had been left behind in his camp, carrying them throughout Iberia once again.
When Sulpicius Galba succeeds in the roman command he proposes a peace treaty with the lusitans conceiding them their wishes and new lands, signs the treaty and when the 30000 lusitans (men, women and children) unarmed, leave the mountains and cities to celebrate the new peace with Galba in their new fertile lands in the plains, in 3 different places, he asks them to lay down their arms as a sign of good will, and then orders his ambushed soldiers to attack and massacres those 3 groups, one by one (the other 2 groups could not know what happened to the first one as they were separated from each other). More then 9000 are killed and the majority of the rest is captured and sold as slaves in Galia. Among those who escaped alive this genocide, was a young sheppard from 'Serra da Estrela' (the highest mountains in today's Portugal and home of the lusitans), called Viriato.
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber...ispania_11.gif
Iberia in 147BC
Viriato was a true military genius. He was so feared and admired by the roman writers of those days that they had no doubt calling him the ‘barbarian Hannibal’ or even the 'Romulus hispaniensis' [right! He would sooner rape that b*tch's ass then such on her teets like Romulus :D ]. Owner of a briliant military and political mind Viriato convinces his lusitanian tribal leaders to serve under his leadership (especially due to his tribe's soldiers superior discipline and his personal fairness in judgement) gathers an army of 10.000 and starts defeating consecutively entire roman praetor and consular armies. Alterning from openfield to guerrilla tactics he destroys the raiding legions and puts Rome in the defensive. But this was just the begining. In 147BC he invades the valley of Betis (in Hispania Ulterior, controled by romans) defeating everything ahead. He was a brilliant strategist who used the terrain to his advantage, and he ‘walked’ through Hispania Ulterior like a magician, apearing and vanishing from roman sight without leting the romans to pin him and defeat his ‘little’ army. The roman armies, used to orthodox engagements (with camps facing each other etc), were continously surprised by rush attacks, ambushes, baits, etc until they were completely anihilated.
At the Valley of Tietar, in 148, Viriato defeated the propraetor Caius Plautius and made Segóbriga (deep in the roman territory) his capital. From this base he launched several attacks of great impact against the roman dominance in the peninsula. In four years he had defeated 4 entire praetor/consular armies (11 of the 13 commanders sent were consuls): Caius Vetilius in 149 (4000 killed first and another 6000 a couple of days later who had came to the rescue, routing the rest), Caius Plautius in 148 (4000 dead and another 4000 captured a couple of days later, routing the rest), Claudius Unimanus in 147 (10000 ambushed and killed, routing the rest), and Caius Ngidius Figulus in 146 (totally destroyed) after which Viriato overrun all Hispania Ulterior without opposition.
The romans felt 'insulted' more than ever, and in 140 they sent the military famous consul Fabius Maximus Servilianus. Ahead of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry he is surprisingly ambushed and defeated by Viriato, who only kills 3000 and captures the rest, who surrendered.
"Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."
Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12
However, being merciful and honorable, and even in face of what the romans had done previously to his unarmed population, Viriato does not anihilate the entrapped rest. He makes them prisoners and offers them a peace treaty. He convinces Maximo to sign a peace treaty where Lusitania and its Iberian allies should remain independent and romans should content themselves with the territories they already had in the coast. The roman senators were perplexed by such act. The arrogant Senate, used to declare its own treaties, bow themselves and ratifies a treaty for the first time since... a lot of years! But not for long. Some years later, in 139BC, the new consul Pero Servilio Scipio has other plans and, suported by the senate, breaks the treaty with the lusitans. When Viriato sends 3 ambassadors to discuss the meaning of such act, the roman bribes those same ambassadors with great riches to kill Viriato. Promising them even more gold after they return home and kill Viriato during his sleep in his own tent during the night.
The funeral of the great Viriato was inspired in those of Achilles narrated in Homero's Ilíada: “They arrayed the body of Viriato in splendid garments and burned it on a lofty funeral pile. Many sacrifices were offered for him. Troops of horse and foot in armor marched around him singing his praises in barbarian fashion. Nor did they depart from the funeral pile until the fire had gone out”
http://www.in-loco.com/morte_viriato.jpg
Reaction in the morning after finding Viriato's death
With his death, “a man who, for a barbarian, had the highest qualities of a commander, and was always foremost in facing danger and most exact in dividing the spoils,” the Lusitanian war was close to its end. “Other guerrilla bands continued to resist, the women bore arms with the men, who died with a will. Not a man of them showing his back, or uttering a cry. Of the women who were captured some killed themselves, others slew their children also with their own hands, considering death preferable to roman captivity.”
============================
After Viriatos' death, the initiative was lost (their successors were far from his military brilliance) and the romans began to conquer quickly more defenseless lands. But not without major losses, especially when they got near Numancia, who was not defenseless and where romans got their asses kicked really hard. The roman senate was biting their fists back home and saying: "How is it possible that the army that won over Carthage is so humiliated by those savages". And, the year after, in 138BC, another great roman humiliation (perhaps one of the greatest) hapened when an entire consular army under the consul Cayus Hostilius Mancinus was ambushed, while retreating from a siege in Numancia after seeing a giant coallition of tribes from all Iberia (even from Cantábria) who were fed up with those who brought their injust, criminal and bloodthirsty 'law'. Seeing that he was being followed after retreating from that siege, he rushed his march but the Iberians 'drove' him to an alley with no way of escaping. The iberians were way less bloodthirsty than the romans and, even those same men had killed and ravaged defenseless lands and pops, once again their lives were spared and, after parading in front of the proud winners with their consul ahead, they were escorted (to protect them from those same populations they had ravaged in the way back) out of Iberia and back to Rome. A peace treaty had also been signed with the consul. This was an enormous humiliation comparable to that imposed by the samnites on the romans at the 'Horcas Caudinas'.
Back at Rome, the senate was infuriated and accused Mancino of high treason sending him unarmed back to the gates of Numancia, naked and tied up, so that her inahbitants would give him death (a roman consul!). However, in another proof of their mercifulness, the Numantines received and treated him well respecting the peace treaty they had established with him before. The successive consules and their neverending armies kept arriving at Iberia -Emilio Lépido (137 aC), L. Furio Filón (136 aC) y Q. Calpurnio Pisón (135 aC)- but always kept away of Numantia.
But like Corinth and Carthage, their end would be cruel and dramatic. In 134BC, the same men that cruelly destroyed Carthage and its population, Scipio Emiliano, grandson of ScipioAfricanus, was now in Emporias ahead of 60000 men and also with a powerful and vast siege machinery. From there he marched towards Numancia, suddenly breaking once again a peace treaty. Numancia had 10000 pop of whom around 4000 were men able for the fight. With 1-15 odds and against such siege power their fate was doomed. When the provisions were running out, one of the numantines, Retógenes, ahead of a group of men, sailed out of the city and managed to pass through the roman fortifications (meanwhile built all around the city) geting to a near population, Lutia. Here, he got provisions and recruited 400 brave young men who were willing to help them. But Scipio Emiliano's spies informed him of this and roman ordered to amputate those 400 young men's both hands. The situation at Numantia, with no new provisions, was quickly geting to an end. Then all the pop, instead of being enslaved and taken to Rome, decided to take their lives. The all city burned in a giant 'pyre' and when the romans entered the city no more then a few hundreds were still alive, said to be lying on the ground without forces even to get up on their feet. Scipius Emilianus is said to have had great dificulties choosing the 50 prisoners that they were used to exhibit, and that he would chain to his car, in the Triumph ceremony parade, back at Rome.
Numancia had fallen, and till 19 BC almost all of the Iberia, with exception for those who took refuge in the high mountains, would eventually fall too. But as long as one Iberian lives, so will Numancia. Eternally."
almost all was translated from the following link:
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber...ra_roma_01.htm
some of it I took from the remaining roman accounts like Appian and others. If you wanna read more about the subject I totally recommend reading Appian book "The Iberian Wars" who was the roman surviving acount that was dedicated to describe in detail the roman Iberian wars.
Wel, what can I say? You have explained very well some things I've been trying to hammer in people's heads, in this forum, for a long time. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
BTW, welcome to the ORG and to the EB thread. Wouldn't you be interested in joining our effort? :wink2:
Oh, yes. I've noticed it too. But that's not the only thing. Even Romans need some graphical editing and they are, IMHO, the best portraied faction. Rest assured, most units must be retouched or completelly overhauled (like Egypt). We just need people to start spotting and taking notes about which ones need to be modified to be Historically accurate, like you just did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
IIRC, no, it doesn't count for each faction. For example, when you look at a unit like Militia Hoplites, that's a generic Hellenic faction unit. It is a single unit type, although many factions can produce it. But this unit, depending on faction, has several specific texture to be applied in each particular case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
But I might be wrong, because I haven't studied the skinning atributes enough.
I greatly changed Eastern European part of RTW's map.
New features:
http://img55.exs.cx/img55/3981/newmap1.th.jpg http://img55.exs.cx/img55/5343/newmap2.th.jpg http://img55.exs.cx/img55/5994/newmap3.th.jpgQuote:
1. Proper proportions of forests and steppes.
2. More forests on the North.
3. No forests (with hidden experts;) in southern steppes (unfortunally it affects only strategy level, battlemap is full of trees again):
4. Smooth border between forests and steppes.
5. Better fertile lands on territory of modern Ukraine and Don-Volga basin.
6. More swamps on the North.
7. Swamps along shores of Caspian and Azov seas.
8. More forests in North-Western Caucasia.
9. Eastern border of Scythia moved east so that Maeotis is cut off Crimea.
10. Eastern border of Maeotis moved slightly east.
12. Hyperboria is full accessible now.
13. Tribus Sarmatae have access to Locus Gepidae and Hyperboria now.
14. Tribus Alanni have access to Hyperboria now.
15. Proper depicted area of Crimea.
16. Campus Scythii moved to the coast of Black Sea and renamed to Olbia.
17. Other Scythian cities and ports moved slightly.
18. Volga have only one ford to make it harder to cross.
19. Ford added to Don near Tanais.
20. Hills added to right banks of Dniepr, Don and Volga.
22. Hilly central part of Tribus Sarmatae.
23. Hills added near Carpathians.
------------------------------------------
Renamed:
regions
1. Pripet - Tribus Venedae ("Pripet" is later Slavic name of local river)
2. Bosphorus - Taurica
3. Phrygia - Mysia
4. Ionia - Lydia
5. Peloponnesus - Achaia
cities
1. Domus Dulcis Domus - Vicus Gepidae
2. Themiskyra - Vicus Fenae (Tacitus wrote about Fens - Finno-Ugrians - living here)
3. Campus Scythii - Olbia
4. Campus Getae - Tyras
5. Bylazora - Sardica
6. Rome - Roma
7. Carthage - Carthago
rebels
1. Amazons - Fenae (Tacitus wrote about Fens - Finno-Ugrians - living here)
2. Bosphorans - Chersonesans
------------------------------------------
Resources changes:
1. In Locus Gepidae - amber added
2. In Hyperboria - gold removed, timber added
3. In Tribus Alanni - hides(3) added
4. In Tribus Sarmatae - hides added
5. In Maeotis - hides added
6. In Scythia - grain and hides(2) added
7. In Tribus Iazyges - hides added
8. In Bosphorus - grain removed, wine added
9. In Colchis - wine added
http://img55.exs.cx/img55/9985/newmap4.th.jpg http://img55.exs.cx/img55/7389/newmap5.th.jpg http://img55.exs.cx/img55/6199/newmap6.th.jpg http://img55.exs.cx/img55/5380/newmap7.th.jpg
It's very easy to implement it in the game. What do you think about it?
We can easily edit and create new provinces. Look at this pics!
Bosporus:
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/bosporus.jpg
Corsica:
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/corsica.jpg
My suggestions on changing the map:
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/eb_map.jpg
1. New provinces:
- Bosporus(1) (done)
- Corsica(2) (done)
- new coastal province between Cirenaica and Egypt(5) (don't now how to call it)
- Raetia(6) (not sure about spelling)
2. Possible new provinces:
- Scandinavia(3) (it may be accessible part of Tribus Saxonae)
- Caledosia(4) (not sure)
- Melita(7) (not sure)
3. Change borders of:
- Maeotis(8) (done)
- Mauretania(9) and Carthage(10) to cut off Numidia from the sea
- Numidia(11)
- Dimmidi(12)
- Nepte(13)
- Leptic Magna(14) to make it just coastal province
- Cyrenaica(15) to cut off Siwa(16) from the sea
Let's discuss it!
Oh don't worry, I for one am itching to get into the Iberians and Celtiberians..the Briton..the Germans...! ~:cheers:
Ok guys a poll. Minor thing but better we sort it out early. We were considering touching up the faces and thought it best we run it by you guys. Here are four examples. Please let us know which one you prefer. Just consider the faces, nothing else.
A) The Originals
B) The Light Mod
C) The Medium Mod
D) The Heavy Mod
Thanks
* Also who is ready to start coding in unit features and stats?
Medium. But with red hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Happy to be here :sunny:
About joining your effort I'm afraid that I can't do much to help apart from helping with info since I'm a n00b in modding. The only things I can mod in RTW are the existing units' stats and change their place in the construction tiers... you must have guessed which I have modded right :sunny: I improved both the "Iberian Inf" and the "Iberian Scutari" stats and also the Iberian cavs too a bit (I would like for you guys to turn the Scutariis' primary weapon to a spear btw as I believe that was the correct way though I'm not sure if they thrown it before contact).
What I especially REALLY would like for you guys to change is the Balearic Slingers stats as I did: I increased their range to outdo every ancient archer....200 in range contrary to 170 (though I haven't changed the stats much of the n00b slingers, only equaling them to n00b archers' range). You may say that is ridiculous but in fact I'm being conservative! The problem with the sling is that you need to be a pro to use it right.... the balearics trained from childhood. Once a pro you could outdo ANY ancient archer and that is why, for example, both Hannibal and Julius Caesar preferred them. Here's a VERY interesting and informative piece I wrote some time ago:
ARCHERS vs SLINGERS:
"Hannibal's light troops were in a different class from those of the Romans. They were very highly trained and were capable of inflicting much damage on the enemy. Of particular importance were the Balearic slingers. These were organized into two corps, each a thousand strong. They were armed with three types of sling for employment at different ranges. Such was their accuracy and their volume of fire that they were deemed more useful than archers"
from: Cannae 216 BC: Hannibal Smashes Rome's Army" (Osprey Campaign Series # 36)
---
"To get good range with a sling takes practice. With one of my slings, I might sling a stone a bit bigger than a golf ball only seventy yards or so. Ancient slingers with much more skill than me could get a stone well over twice this distance. There are peasant boys in Africa who use slings to herd sheep and goats. They sit in the shade of a tree, and if they see an animal straying, they sling a stone in front of it to scare it back into the flock. To gain this sort of skill, I am told it is necessary to start young. Good slingers in antiquity were in demand. Particularly famed for their skill with slings were the men of the Balearic Isles (islands in the Mediterranean including Majorca, Ibiza and Minorca). These slingers practised their skill from a very early age, their original purpose being to hunt and to scare pests."
"Both Roman and Greek writers say that the sling could out-range the bow. The advantage of range is repeatedly stressed. This could, it seems to me, be because the sling had a greater effective range, arrows losing their power to air-resistance after a while, and falling out of control onto their target, whereas a sling stone might build up a more dangerous speed just from falling. The effective range of slings seems to be in excess of 360 yards. Also assyrian reliefs show slingers attacking cities from further away than the archers. Perhaps this is because the archers were used to shoot straight at defenders on the walls, while slingers dropped stones into the city, or perhaps it is just another clue to the greater range of slings.
The Roman military historian Vegetius (ca 400 BC) recommends a practising range of 180 m for archers. This says something for the armourers of the day, considering that even a modern bow and arrow are not acceptably accurate beyond a range of about 200 m. Yet even in King David’s time slingshots were accurate at ranges of 250 m]. Xenophon reports a range of 400 m
Writers tell of the terrible wounds that slings would inflict, especially [toxic hardly compressed lead] bullets. The Romans developed a special pair of tongs designed for getting bullets out of people. Arrows, unless barbed and deep in the victim, are easier to extract.
The power of slings is famous. When iron plate-armoured Spaniards went into South America against the Aztecs, only the slings of the Aztecs were feared. The stone-tipped arrows would glance off or shatter against the armour, but the sling stones would damage the Spaniards by sheer smashing force."
Adding to these effectiveness advantages, comes the economical and pratical ones, especially during military campaigns:
"The sling is very easy and cheap to make. Most in the past were made of leather, some being rush or twisted cord. The amount of material needed is minimal, and anyone who knows what a sling should look like could make one in a few minutes. Bows take far more materials, and rarer materials too. Bows take more maintenance, can break when you fall over, take far more time and skill to make, and are more cumbersome. A slinger could carry half a dozen spare slings easily, while an archer would worry about damage to his one bow.
A sling might be carried without ammunition, with the thought that some could be found when needed. Bows take very specialist ammunition which needs to be well-made in advance, and maintained. An archer would want to recover as many of his arrows as possible after use. Arrows are expensive, and can warp in damp weather. Arrows are long things need to be carried in an awkward quiver which flops about as the carrier runs. A pouch of sling stones can be a neat bundle, a more manageable load.
It is well known how bows are affected by weather. Battles have hinged on whether one side, with superior archers, has been able to make use of its bows effectively. Even quite light wind will blow arrows off course badly, and rain will spoil bow strings, and drag arrows down from the air. Slings, while still adversely affected by wind and rain, suffer not nearly so much from bad weather. This may explain why armies with archers often valued having slingers as well.
Slingers are generally more mobile than archers. They find it easier to shoot on the move and have the great advantage of needing only one hand to shoot, which allows them to use a shield in their free hand to protect themselves. It is possible to load a sling one handed, and I find that the best way to do this is to kneel down quickly and use the ground as a third hand: put the sling down letting go of one string, get a stone, put the stone in the sling, then pick up the sling again by the loose string and stand up again. While doing this, you would want to have a shield for protection, since you have to take your eye off the enemy. One can sling while kneeling, but the shot will not be as powerful or accurate. Archers in ancient armies often wore armour; they needed it more. While some archers did sometimes carry shields, these could not be used for parrying while shooting. All this may explain while slingers were often deployed as skirmishers on the field rather than in huge formations.
Arrows can be seen raining down upon an enemy, and even when they are flying on a fairly flat trajectory, are visible to an enemy expecting them. Sling stones are much more difficult to see in flight, especially from a distance. It is also more difficult to judge which way they are going, as they are seen as a dot rather than a line. Sling bullets, which are cast lead shot, are especially difficult to see."
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.l...s/anisling.gif
Contrary to popular belief as well as in RTW, the sling is not whirled above the head several times, building up speed, before the stone is released. A sling might be whirled a couple of times slowly if the slinger had time, to get the feel of the weight of the stone, and while sizing up the target, but it is one big movement which sends the stone on its way.
from: http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.l...ons/sling.html
Concluding, the slingers stoped being used due to the very high amount of training it required (many say only starting young), and we all know how more and more important it became with time to quickly train new HIGH number of recruits. For example, when the muskets appeared the longbows were still far more effective both in range and accuracy... however the armies started to be filled with ranks of muskets only. This goes out to show that as well as the musket replaced the bows due to amount of training required... so did the same hapened with the sling.
As I said in the begining, the Balearic Slingers MUST be ubberly improved in range (so to surpass even the best archers' range) and also in attack a bit (to express their high accuracy) maintaining their costs low as is justified above. The only 'if' needed to reflect the difficulty in geting a lot of these especialised units is already in the game... one can't train Balearic Slingers and only hire them as mercs ~:)
OK, here's some feedback on the mod. [Playing as the Julli on N/N]
I like the lower movement speed, primarily b/c I used far less pausing during battles than I did during vanilla RTW. The defense bonus wasn't noticeable, but at the same time, it seemed to have helped slow down the battles somewhat by making infantry melees longer. Kills in ship battles were somewhat larger, but I haven't had enough sea battles to really see how the changes will play out.
Now for some specific notes...
- Massilia/Transalpine Gaul: The intital campaign setup is w/ Voconti rebels holding the town. I though the Voconti were a Gallic tribe, but the game has them set up as a Greek rebel faction, with militia hoplites and a temple to Athena.
- Don't know if this is related to mod or not - I had a unit of velite gladiators (given by the senate as a mission reward) survive a battle with only 4 soldiers left and not dissapear when I returned to the campaign map.
- A Julli spy starts off in Ariminum instead of Arretium.
- I noticed a group of Sicilian rebels outside Messana; there was one unit of Triari and one unit of Principes, but both had the "peasant" unit card (looked like triari and princ. on the battle map).
- Same deal as above with archers and macedonian cavalry in Syracuse
- Same deal - 2 units of Falxmen in Campus Getae
- Same deal - 3 scythian horse archers/3 archer warbands @ Campus Alanni
- Same deal - 2 cataphract units @ Campus Sakae
- Armenian diplomat starts near Kotais
- 1 Parthian bireme unit still starts near Campus Sakae
- Macedon was destroyed by the summer of 247 BC (w/o any of my own intervention). They either need more resources to begin the game or more territory; the fact that they start out with two provinces isolated from each other seems to be their biggest problem.
Oh, and for fellow testers, entering the console and typing "toggle_fow" makes the entire map visible. This will probably be useful later on when we're more concerned with faction balancing in regards to the initial unit/province setup.
I agree on the Balearic Slingers, in addition I feel their attack should be stronger than any other slinger as they used a weight (if Roman historians can be believed) that was twice that of other slingers.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
- The above quote was intended to show that should we assume the legion adopted the pila after one of the Punic wars that it would not be available until at least around 240 BC, not the period that Livy writes about.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
- Perhaps I misstate my point, or I did not write clearly, but I never intended to say Livy -lived- c. 340 BC, I intended to say that he wrote about the legion c. 340 BC. We are talking about Titus Livius, Roman historian, are we not?
- Peter Connolly, respected historian and author of "Greece and Rome at War," states quite clearly that "we" (being the body of historians) know that the pila was in use c. 340 BC and thus he assumes that where Livy neglected to mention the armament of the early republican hastati and principes, we should assume they have pila. So it seems Connolly disagrees with you.
Please note that this thread is intended to be a place to discuss the technical aspects of putting together the mod. Long posts with lots of historical information are more than welcome in EB, and we appreciate your input, but I would ask that we move that sort of discussion over to the other thread so we don't confuse things (at least until we have a better forum structure to work with):
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33417
Cheers,
-khel
I can code it in, but I would prefer the experts in the faction say where they should fall between units in the different stat categories.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
Here's sth about it:Quote:
Originally Posted by khelvan
"Missiles from different eras and different countries showed considerable difference in weight and size. For example, missiles found in the near East varied from 13 g, a mere pebble, to 185 g – a fair sized stone. Balearic missiles were sometimes 63 mm in diameter – about the size of a tennis ball."
from: http://www.africanarcher.com/survivor/art_sling.htm
can you imagine a rain of hardly compressed lead 'bullets', of the size of tennis balls flying in your direction ~:eek: :dizzy2:
---
Yup, I had a lil doubt that you might have intended in that way though I got the strong impression that you were refering as the other way. My mistake then.Quote:
- Perhaps I misstate my point, or I did not write clearly, but I never intended to say Livy -lived- c. 340 BC, I intended to say that he wrote about the legion c. 340 BC.
well I don't know how can someone, who was a self called mainly military historian like Livy, could 'forget' to mention the use of a deadly throwing javelin like the pila in his own country's army description... so yes I 'disagree' with Connoly's "assumings". And, btw, a bit off the subject but I found the overnationalistic Livy of little to no credibility ESPECIALLY when talking of sth directly related to rome or rome's enemies ~;)Quote:
- Peter Connolly, respected historian and author of "Greece and Rome at War," states quite clearly that "we" (being the body of historians) know that the pila was in use c. 340 BC and thus he assumes that where Livy neglected to mention the armament of the early republican hastati and principes, we should assume they have pila. So it seems Connolly disagrees with you.
---
Yes I know, and I tried to do what said. My rebuttal to your quote regarding Livy was even from that other thread and was logical that I tried to do it there first, but there's a problem... I can't post in the 'colosseum'. Don't know quite how things work in this forum but I think I was not 'qualified' to post in that area :embarassed:Quote:
Please note that this thread is intended to be a place to discuss the technical aspects of putting together the mod. Long posts with lots of historical information are more than welcome in EB, and we appreciate your input, but I would ask that we move that sort of discussion over to the other thread
:shocked: :stunned: Awesome, Dead Moroz!!! In so little time? :surprised:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Isn't it Caledonia? Land of the Caledonians?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
It would be great to add this one, because The_Emperor's Historical research, mentions that the main inspiration for Woad Warriors were the Caldeonian's depiction in those days. He said it was best to rename Woad Warriors as Caledonian Warband.
OK, but your post needs a lot of investigation to comment on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
I'll comment in the next post.
The medium.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
As for the shields and pants (I know it's not supposed to be commented), any of the non-originals looks great!! :thumbsup:
I liked the mediums face... though I wish we could get the units to have true long hair tather than braids... I think CA hates long hair... :embarassed:
I do not think it is safe to assume that Livy "forgot" to mention the pila's use. As I am sure you are well aware his works cover many centuries, and the area Connolly draws from in describing the 4th Century legion is mainly Livy's description of the Latin War of 340-338. It seems that in this case Livy did not list every single detail of the equipment of the legion, only bits and pieces. It isn't as if he mentioned one of the heavy infantry weapons and we (or Connolly) are assuming he forgot another. He didn't describe the weapon(s) of the hastati or principes at all. Connolly states that the pila was in use at this time, and unless we have a historical source stating what, exactly, the 4th Century hastati and principes DID wield, for the purposes of this mod I see no reason NOT to assume, as Connolly has done, that the hastati and principes were using the pila.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
The assumption may be wrong, but simply stating that you feel the reasoning behind the assumption is faulty without providing the information that describes the alternative isn't helpful, as we're trying to model the unit (and the heavy infantry wouldn't be very useful without weapons! ~D).
After so many discussions, they tend to blend together, so forgive me if I don't know which thread you're drawing quotes from days to weeks ago from ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
I never had to go through a posting restriction, so I tend to forget that new members these days have one. I apologize.
-khel
Edit: By the way, if you want to join the mod team and contribute but don't feel you have the necessary skill, feel free to take over the role of trying to make the Roman factions (in starting position, units, skin & textures, unit model, names, family tree, and so on) more historically accurate. You don't have to do any editting yourself, just take on the role of making sure the units are done as well as possible. If you follow the threads you will see much discussion has happened already, and I took a leadership role in that only because I had the motivation to do it. I would be happy simply inputting new data in should someone who knows more than I do (that isn't hard) want to take over responsibility for it.
Note to everyone: Don't feel that because you've never played around in the text files or with Photoshop or 3D Studios you can't contribute. There are a few of us who are willing to do most or all of that sort of work, right now more than anything what is lacking are individuals who are -active- and taking on responsibility for making sure each faction looks and feels historically accurate, that the units and starting position fit into the game as historically as possible, and in general coordinating the work that is happening for the faction.
I know Aymar is working behind the scenes to make sure the right people are in place, so contact him if you feel you can add that sort of contribution.
~:eek: Nice map Dead Moroz and excellent model/skin PSYCHO V
PSYCHO V I like the medium for its pant and shield.
Dead Moroz, you perhaps can add 3 eastern provinces like caucasian Iberia, Aghbania and Characene ? I had found a good map reference site about Caucasian - Parthain provinces but I lost it :embarassed: :embarassed:
Hmmm, Melita province maybe should be renamed Malat ( In Phoenician ) and it's city can be named Mdina.
The centre of power in the Phoenician empire shifted from the main land in present Lebanon to the colony of Carthage in what is nowadays known as Tunisia. Against the Carthaginians, the Romans fought several battles, the so called Punic Wars. During the second Punic war, in 218 BC, Malta fell into the hands of the Romans. The Romans called the island Melita , probably a corruption of the Phoenician Malat . The present name Malta is derived from it. The capital was also called Melita and was situated at the hilltop of the present city of Mdina. But Melita was larger than Mdina and included parts of Rabat. In Rabat there are still some traces of the Roman presence in Malta, like the mosaic floors of a Roman house from the 1st century AD. Furthermore there are some catacombs in Rabat, subterranean burial complexes that were in use during the Roman and early christian period.
More on Malat/Melita here
A super High Five to all for their superb work!
http://www.wwt.uk.com/UploadedImages/476_High%205.jpg
~:)
Junior member here (not certain why you folks do that here but I suppose the number of youthful types that refuse to use the search function are best kept out of other parts of the boards) who is more then willing to help.
I see some folks have keyed into Warhammer Ancient Battles, I play the game, sadly rarely even less then games of FB, and quite right it is very good a cover the ranges of armies in some depth in a form much easier to work from then pouring through Osprey series books for information on units.
However I must say for the most part the Barbarian end of RTW is by far not lacking as much as the abomanable Egypt they put in (where are the Hittites and Sea Peoples to fight them is what I wondered :furious3:) but folks need to start somewhere and the Barbarian types seem to be quite popular for folks to fix.
So if there is anything in particular from the historical end such as unit types and the like question about WAB lists for the Various Barabarian groups or anything you folks need help with I'm more then willing to contribute so just ask.
Probably sort through all these posts in this thread and give some more specific coments when I have the time. I really hope this expands to cover both "Civilized" and Barabarian types for realism in the end.
Soldier of Fortune
Yes, it is possible and was one of the alterations I had planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
As for the throwing spear, I'm afraid you're wrong. They used a combo (spear+solifera), but didn't throw the spear.
Excellent article!!! I had read it somewhere. I haven't tried slingers in RTW yet, so I wasn't aware that they had lesser range. That, of course, is ludicrous. But I think you have been too conservative in range. I propose:Quote:
Originally Posted by [cF]HanBaal
-Balearic slingers - 300m
-Rodean slingers - 260m
-Other slingers - 220m
Update on the work list:
-campaign map/province/city changes:
khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...
-faction name changes/new faction implementation:
Silver Rusher
...
...
...
-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:
I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, according to your interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.
Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy
Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...
Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Dacians and Thracians:
TigerVX
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...
Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...
Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...
-battle system changes:
Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
-naval battle changes:
khelvan
Colovion
...
...
-economic/population model changes:
khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:
Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
-Faction and unit Descriptions:
Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika
Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...
Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...
Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...
Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
...
Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...
-Gameplay testing and debugging:
Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus
Sethik
Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area
Updated 02:30 - 10/26/04
It's bit of a behavioural control system. A trial period to make people polite.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.F
I had the same unpleasent impression. I was... ~:pissed:Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.F
It started with the "barbarians", then it grew to every faction...
Thanks for offering your help. Much apreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.F
Mostly what we're trying to find is correct Historical information about unit types, unit look, weaponery, flags, etc... that can be related to what is in RTW, regarding each specific faction in the particular span of the game (270BC-14AD). But I don't know what info can be gathered at the WAB.
I might be forgetting something, as my fellow colaborators will soon remind me... :smile:
Good. It's interesting reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.F
BTW, it has expanded... :wink:
Thanks for the feedback guys. Seems medium is the go. If your all happy with that, we'll see if we can add the same detail to all our barb skins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Dead Moroz, I'd also like to see another rebel 'province' around Gergovia in Gaul if possible. We'll have some unit goodies for the area ~D
khelvan, I'll have some stuff for you shortly.
Ancient Caucasia region map
Colchis, Mesopotamia, Assyria, Armenia, Albania, Pontos, Iberia, Media
http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/cama_1840.jpg
Armenia, Iberia, Media, Assyria map by Woodward & Peele #1
Armenia, Iberia, Media, Assyria map by Woodward & Peele #2
~:handball:
Well WAB covers Republican and Early Imperial Rome, Carthage, Sucessor, and Parthians okay. Barbarians have a generic list since it works as a good base to cover all the Republican and Early Imperial period so it is a bit vague and leaves a bit for interpretation for folks to have Dacians or British Celts out of the same list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
The Punic Wars period has sadly been neglected so far when it comes to the more fleshed out full list books such as have been done for the Late Roman period, Biblical, Medieval, and Viking Northern Europe periods.
I'd really like to see both a diversification of troop types, like making Fanatic Warriors more fitting for each Barbarian group, along with more diverse number of provinces on the map, the Italian penisula could do with a few more provinces in the start such as Reggio at the tip of Bruttium being seperate as it would be a latin colony rather then lumped in with the less imporant Corton which had little care for Roman rule or say the Boii Gauls who's homelands are currently lumped in with Ventia, and a better representation of Roman rule in Italy as of 270 when the campaign starts and none of the this Patrician Houses crap, plays nicer for the later civil wars of the mid 1st century BC and the rise of Imperial Rome rather then for the Mid-Republican period.
Really be nice to have a Punic Veterans regiment for Carthage as well representing seasoned African troops wearing captured Roman mail......just rambling now I suppose.
aymar a idea about elephants, the elephants when "mortal wounded" they rampage in the entiry field atacking everthing ,they only stop when they died our the man that take care of him insert a wood stick in is brain.
Just a idea
Ok Dead Moroz, here's my recommendations for Gaul.
The original map:
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GAULMAP.jpg
Recommended map:
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GAULMAPII.jpg
Samarobriva (Belgae) I'd make this a rebel town with heaps of troops
Nemetacum (Belgae, Atrebates) I'd make this a rebel town with a good force
I'd start the Germans with lots of troops just across the Rhine.
Vesontia (Belgae in North, Sequani etc in South) I'd make a rebel faction or new faction with the Arverni (Gergovia) and the Allobroges (Vienna)
Gergovia home of the Arverni and Vercingetrix. I'd make a rebel town or include in a new faction as previously stated. I'd give them a strong army.
Vienna home of the Allobroges, allies of the Arverni and Sequani. Same as above suggestion. I'd give them a fairly strong army.
Avaricum the ancient capital of Gaul and home to the Bituriges. Was the most impressive Oppida in all of Gaul with Large stone walls, paved streets etc If we can makeup some nice stone Oppida, I propose we give the Gauls 'stone' walls here.
Bibracte another large Oppida of stone and home to the Aedui
Darioritum captial of the Ventii
Tolosa (modern Toulouse) captial of the Volcae
Basically these changes will present the player with a more historical scenario. Playing Gaul, you will face the historic reality of having to contend with winning the civil war before the Germans and Romans over run you. Playing against Gaul, you will have a more interesting time conquering the various areas and those different troop types ~;)
This map is way better, as it would allow you to split the gauls into possibly 2 or more factions.
Also, revomming Alesia is a great idea, since
1 - It was only a fortified village, and by no way a capital
2 - From recent researches, Alesia was in west/south-west part of current France.
Personally, I think we should go with hill forts/strongholds with the barbarian factions, since these peoples didn't have any real cities (excluding the Iberians and the Celtiberians, the latter to an extent). These could then be expanded like in MTW and STW.
Of course, this little idea of mine might've been proposed before, since I haven't read most of the EB thread after RTW's release.
Also, I think we should extend the map a bit to the east if that's possible, like the older versions of the map we saw in screenshots before the release, since there isn't much changing to the provinces of Elymais and Media. However, in 270 BC the Parthians under their Arsacid kings hardly controlled any of Persia (in fact, they were still part of the Dahae confederation out on the Central Asian steppes, but I'm willing to take that liberty); solely a region along the southeasternmost coast of the Caspian Sea. I believe its Persian name was Gurgan. It was a region of soft climates, almost an oasis of temperate weather, flanked by mountains on the west, south and east, and on the north by desert.
The early Arsacid Parthians (or a better term for the Parthians at the time: the Parni) controlled the old satrapy of Gurgan and a part of the satrapy of Parthia, which lay to the east and north. For greater accuracy regarding the starting position of the Parthians (and probably a more interesting game with them), I'd say it would be worthwhile to extend the map a bit to the east to control the west half of Central Asia, and the satrapies of Gurgan, Parthia, Persis, Media, and Elymais (Susiana).
~Wiz
I agree that evauntauly we should extend the map, but mabye we should save that for a bit later.
Also, would Alexander era pics of Macedonian armies be helpful? As of now the Macedonians are pretty darn wrong, and I know at least some Alexanderian influence continued for a while...
Are there any estimates of a release date/time frame for this mod?
"Not Soon"
I saw that you got a subforum in the Total War Series - Hosted Mod section. Do you want me to move this thread to that forum?
Yes, please do. If we could leave a pointer to that area that would be awesome.
Hum... I think something went wrong with creating the forum. Or did you ask for a passworded subforum within the EB category? It's not possible to post in there and the pasworded subforum is nowhere to be seen. I am asked to give a password when moving the thread to the EB subforum.
I assume that you asked Tosa, but what did you ask? Do you want a subforum within a EB category and do you want it to be passworded?
Aymar worked out the details. My requests to him were a place where we could lay out work in different threads, and a place where only EB members would have access. I'm not sure if those two requests ended up as one in the same, so I'll let you, Tosa, and Aymar figure out the structure.
Thanks!
I'm working hard on editing the map. And found some problems. The more you change the map, the more is the chance to have some casual bugs. Because changing of some area of map will cause the game to make small changes throughout all area of map. So small graphical bugs may appear just "out of nowhere". They may disappear after next regeneration of map... or may not.
I'll try to make all necessary changes and expand the map to north (to include Caledonia) and east (to enlarge Parthia). But it will take long time. And I'm not sure in good result.
For now I changed borders of many African provinces (made them more historically accurate and landscape oriented) and created new provinces - Bosporus (Crimea), Corsica, Rhaetia (west Alps) and Marmarica (between Cyrenaica and Egypt). Planning to create Melita (I'm sure it must have Latin name, not Phoenician), Iberia and Albania (both in Caucasus).
@PSYCHO V: Could you give me "real" map of this region?
@The Wizard and Steppe Merc: Do you have detailed maps of Parthia?
What sort of info are you after? Are you going to completely re-do the topography? That would be fantastic..but a hell of a job! I thought we could just add some towns and realign borders. Though no doubt that's a pain in the butt too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Sorry for the late replays, I had a great deal of things to do...
khelvan : I will try to get as much info about the economy in RTW as I can, so that we can tweak it as we wish. I will keep track of my new Ma. campaign... The timeframe and the province-changes need definatly a good discussion...
Dead Moroz : Very nice change, the Regnum Bosbororum would be a nice additon, even just as rebels. I will discuss more with you soon via PM
Aymar : I will definatly have to focus on the strat. map and the economy, but I will help with the historical research and the balancing of the missile weapons. I already made some rough map of the various missile weapons/bows and tried to model them accuratly....
Cheers
OA
Beautifull maps, Stormy. Just what we need. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormy
BTW, I didn't know there was another region called Iberia?!!! :surprised:
So, you didn't know that inhabitants of Pyrenees and our "Russian" Osetians are relatives? ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
I believe that something like that is already implemented in the game. I might be wrong though... :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRunner
I mean the map of ancient Gallic regions, to see it all "from first hands".Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
About topography. Think I will keep original. Because as I said before great changes cause bugs on the map.
What about Celtiberia? Will it be as it is now?
@Stormy: Thanks for maps and ideas! ~:wave:
Good descriptions. You're quite right about the oppidum in Bibactre and Avaricum. We'll just have to model some Celtic-type stone walls (those built with structural wood squares).Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
BTW, it's Vercingetorix or Vercingetrix? :thinking:
Several Gaullish factions? How many did you had in mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
Yes, they would be...Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
Well, I really think I was quite explicit in my requests for Tosa Inu, so I believe he is on top of everything. The problem might be related to my lack of experience with these things. Let's hope we are back on track soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by khelvan
Take your time. The most important aspect will be stability. Don't rush it. Be certain of the things that are running well and of the possible things that are failling to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Great. Keep going. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
LOL :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Try justifying that with migratory research... :wink:
No problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens
There was a rumor (Dead Moroz) that you were working on a 300BC map. I guess it was just a joke... :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens
Great. I'll update the list. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens
As for the new projectiles, I've analysed the files and I'm pretty sure we can had multiple ones. I even think we will be able (with a lot more work) to had exotic projectiles like throwing axes (new projectile graphics and animation though).
Now with this new sub-forum to play with are there going to be individual topic threads popping up about particular factions and the like? I jotted down some notes on early Germans and Iberians yesterday and if specific threads for such things are going to start up I thought it best to save them for there rather then posting it here.
Yes. In about five minutes. I'll get on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.F
Update on the work list:
-Campaign map/Provinces/City changes:
khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...
-Economic/Population model changes:
khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
-Faction name changes/New faction implementation:
Silver Rusher
...
...
...
-Menu Flags/ Battle Flags (2d graphics):
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
-Unit changes/New unit implementation/3d and 2d unit graphics:
Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy
Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...
Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Dacians and Thracians:
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...
Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...
Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...
-Battle system changes/Unit testing:
Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
-Naval battle changes:
khelvan
Colovion
...
...
-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:
Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
-Factions and units - info and descriptions :
Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika
Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...
Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...
Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...
Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
Dead Moroz
...
Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...
-Gameplay testing and debugging:
Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus
Sethik
Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area
Updated 18:11 - 10/27/04
The new threads, concerning the specific workgroups, are up. Please post specific info in the relevant thread.
This was posted by Dead Moroz at the EB thread at the Colosseum:
So, what do you ALL think about it? Answers, please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
I like having everything centralized. Since this area can be accessed by everyone I think it is a good idea to have the historical research here.
We should have some discussion about what things we should keep here and what should be moved to the passworded forum. Let's give everyone access there and I will start that discussion.
I'll send the info to the relevant people.Quote:
Originally Posted by khelvan
I have a few questions about the building times in the game. I think they are too long. I can understand walls, government, or religious buildings taking years to be built, but why on Earth would a blacksmith take a year and a half to build? Same goes for some military buildings (especially Barbarians). How long would it actually take a barracks to be built? Historically speaking, of course.
Whoops, didn't see the fourm change. I'll move this post into the city thread.
Update on the work list:
-Campaign map/Provinces/City changes:
khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
-Economic/Population model changes:
khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
-Faction name changes/New faction implementation:
Silver Rusher
...
...
...
-Menu Flags/ Battle Flags (2d graphics):
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
-Unit changes/New unit implementation/3d and 2d unit graphics:
Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy
Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...
Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
...
...
...
Dacians and Thracians:
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...
Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...
Ponthus/Seleucids/Ptolemaic Egypt (Successor States):
...
...
...
Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...
-Battle system changes/Unit testing:
Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
-Naval battle changes:
khelvan
Colovion
...
...
-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:
Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
-Factions and units - info and descriptions :
Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika
The Wizard
Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
The Wizard
Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
Carthage:
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...
...
Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...
...
Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
Dead Moroz
The Wizard
Ponthus/Seleucids/Ptolemaic Egypt (Successor States):
The Wizard
...
...
Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...
-Gameplay testing and debugging:
Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus
Sethik
Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area
Updated 23:57 - 10/27/04
I'd like to try and help out if I can, though my modding skills are totally nonexistant...
Feel free to use the info I posted on the Brits, though Psycho seems to have a bit more material now than I had.
Anyway lets see how this mod goes.
The Germanic faction:
Some details for the modders to build up some interesting and historical units.
THE GERMANIC FACTION
Sahsnotas ("Swordbondsmen") : (Medium Infantry / Sword Warband)
Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, may charge without orders, Combat bonus in woods and snow, Good morale.
Appearance:
long flowing hair without plaits and preferential without the suebian knot, germanic full beard, cloak, trousers in faction colour,
round shield with symbol of a white horse or germanic runes, Spatha-Sax , a long Cutting Sword.
These adept Germanic Swordfighters were known for their abilities with the sax, the saxon sword that gave this tribe its name.
They can be raised in the province Tribus Saxones.
Chatti Fanatics : (Light Infantry)
Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Excellent Morale, may charge without orders, Combat Bonus in woods and snow.
Appearance:
long flowing hair, but without plaits or the celtic spiked haircut, germanic fullbeard, naked chest, trousers in faction colour, round or hexagonal long shield and a spear or axe.
The Chatti, which means "the Distinguished" was a turbulent tribe that often clashed with the romans and fought decades against the Hermunduri, a rome-friendly tribe.
It was common for their young warriors not to shave their beards or cut their hair until they killed their first opponent in a battle.
After doing this, they often inflict some ritual scars on their own skin over the body of their fallen enemy to praise their gods.
They can be raised in the province Tribus Chattii.
Germanic Framaemen : (Light Infantry)
Rome Total War Unit Abilities:
Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Combat Bonus in woods and snow, Combat Bonus vs. Cavalry, may charge without orders.
Appearance:
The appearance of the Germanic SpearWarband fits well. Preferable would be some kind of cloak over their bare chest.
The Framaemen are the bulk of any germanic force. Their weapon, the framae was a spear with a short sharp ending, ideal for thrusting and throwing. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears which are suitable for melee as well as missile combat.
They should be a mix of the Spear Warband combined with the Skirmisher Warband.They can be raised all over Germania.
More to follow...
P.S.
Aymar, i hope this is the correct forum and the skinners and modders take a look at the information.
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/p...empire_map.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
This is a map of Parthia at its height; it shows the name of all major cites and regions.
http://abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/Maps/map229.gif
Here's a map that you could perhaps use; it's in Russian, shows the extent of the Parni Arsacid kingdom, and the extent of Armenia under Tigranes the Great (I presume), plus the expansion of Parthia over time.
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
Just interesting - how did you find Russian map?
Hey Dead Moroz I found some info on a people/place around Moscow called Meshcherka/Meshchera/Meschersky but most of the articles were in Russian which I do not speak. Also Morden who I think are the Mordvins. As a historical name replacement for Hyperborea. I like Hyperborea but I'm not sure how historical it is. What are your thoughts on this and do you know anything more about them. :bow:
Thank's Sharrukin
"Mordvins" or "Mordva" is Russian name for dwellers of Mordor. So the proper name for Hyperboria would be... Mordor. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
I LIKE THAT! Now we have to work on those Uruk-Hai units. ~:cool:
I simply found the map on Google, and found that it was quite helpful, Moroz. You Russians are good map-makers!
~Wiz
Here's a few Scythian/Sarmatian image links (historical decorative objects to be precise). Enjoy.
From an exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC:
- Vessel with relief of a Scythian restringing a bow (c. 325 BC): Link
- Golden deer shield emblem (late 7th C. BC): Link
- Golden panther shield emblem (late 7th C. BC): Link
- Detail of comb w/ battle scene (c. 400 BC): Link
And from the Hermitage (where the Met exhibition was on loan from):
- A gold crescent pectoral (4th C. BC): Link
- Plaque of a Scythian horseman (4th C. BC): Link
Welcome back, The_Emperor!!! ~:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Emperor
We still need historians to help with buildings and unit looks as well as stats.
Any particular area of interest? Any group you would be more interested in working?
I think it would be best to post this in the Factions and units - info and descriptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaFe
I know you had to reply to Dead Moroz's question here, but maybe you should put these maps in the Campaign Map thread too.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
I'd like to help with research on Carthage and the Successor states. If you guys have room for that, of course.
Sure. Welcome to the group. I'll add you to the list. You will then coordinate your info with the guys working on each of those particular groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
Sweet, Thanks. I'll get started then!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaFe
Quick hi from holidays. Have you checked out Tacitus?