I have this bridge in Medemblik I could sell you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
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I have this bridge in Medemblik I could sell you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
When you've got some clown throwing Molotov cocktails at people and setting things on fire, the answer is simple: put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it." Re-establish security. Protest is one thing, violent and dangerous attacks is another. This isn't protest, it is open revolt.
Great idea , there was a nice little example of that sort of attitude just over 30 years ago . Teach them a lesson they will never forget eh ?
I wonder how many billions in wasted money and how many thousands of wasted lives that cost .
Oh and they are still going through the courts 33 years later to see who made the balls up in taking that action .
The trouble with murdering people because "they don't seem to get it" is that a hell of a lot more people get exactly the opposite idea that you want them to get .
[B][LOL, the French treat everyone like shit. It does not give these people the right to riot. Get your head out of your little leftist fantasy world./B]
Whereas if it was Americans who were pissed at the governmnet and the police they wouldn't be burning things they would be shooting them , as that is their right with their amended constipation .
Well, I guess you don't really care about how life's going into my 15k inhabitants city, but let me tell you no policeman ever arrested someone for being black or arab. My former lycée is opened to all ethinicities. There are even some special classes for people who are failing the common studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
There's no low standard insalubrious HLM, no neo-nazi cops arresting people depending on their skin color. There's a poor neighborood, filled white whites, and a few arabs and black families. There's an important Cambodian community which causes absolutely no problem. Why are the Cambodians good and respectful citizens, while 70% of the trouble are caused by the arab community ? They aren't white, they came after a colonial war in which France burnt their country, bombed innocents, they got low paid jobs,they were sent in 3rd zone cities, but they're actually well integrated, well educated...
I seriously think we've done our best to integrate anyone into our society, yet these girls, although they looked integrated and enlightened, hate us, claim their god will burn us. What can we do here ?
There are sure a lot of issues. But understand me. I'm 19 years old. I don't feel I'm responsible for colonisation, for the Algerian war, for the torture. I didn't vote for Mitterand. I did not ask our previous Presidents to allow massive immigration. I did not ask them to put all the migrants into ghetto-cities. I did not ask them to set up a crappy integration system.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Now, we have a group of people rioting, claiming they can't find jobs, can't do that, can't do this, are too poors to do that. That's not surprising, knowing the social and economical gap existing between low and upper classes in France. Yet, oddly, although there's a crapload of people who have good reasons to riot, the rioters are actually people who are between 12 and 22 year olds, who did not fight during the Algerian War, who got access to a decent education system, who never had to find a job, who barely speak french and who don't give a f*ck about this country. And what are they doing ? Burning other poors' cars or schools, randomly molesting people in the street.
I *admit* a few people might actually have rioted because they are unemployed, or because they felt insulted by Sarkozy's speech. I *admit* life in Clichy-sous-Bois must be a real pain.
But what the hell, what are 14 year old scums doing here ? What are 18 year old wealthy b*tches doing here ? What are people claiming we insulted their prophet doing here ? People feel insulted when someone call them scums, and guess what, they prove they are scums by acting as such.
Your reasoning here is :Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I don't like racist rioters = I'm a fascist ?
I don't like people who burn cars, schools and eventually, people = I'm a racist ?
I don't like people who spit on the few things I actually respect in my country = I'm a nationalist right-winger nutjob ?
I can't seriously understand you. A tiny minority of them *may* have reasons to riots, so we just wait until they calm down ? We send them flowers ? We politely ask them not to riot anymore, cause that's not really nice of them ? We tell the people whose cars and homes are getting toasted that the riot is legitimate and that they should just go to hell and forget about their home and the car they bought after hours and hours of hard work ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
As for the Islamic nonsense, I had the same opinion, until I heard what I heard today. If girls dressed like the average 18 year old girl can say "My God will burn you", there's a serious problem IMO.
For years, I've been an anti-racist guy. 3 years ago, a friend a I worked voluntarily for SOS-Racisme. But now, I'm tired that each time I or a friend get molested, the agressor is an arab. I'm tired that each time I hear about drug dealing, the dealer is an arab. I'm tired by the way 12 year olds arab scums show absolutely no respect for anything, will call a girl 'bitch' because she's good looking, will make fun or retard people because they think they're smarter. I'm tired by the tone they use to sound more gang-ish, the way they'll reply "C'est bon !" each time they're told something they don't like. I'm tired by the way they'll all sit at the back of the bus and make fun of everyone who don't look gang-ish.
Right now, I'm tired by the fact I'm surprised each time I meet an arab who doesn't look like some rap singer, who speak french correctly or who bother about his studies.
And how many times has this sort of thing, at this intensity, has happened in the US recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
How you could twist this into a slam on the United States just shows your moronic view of the world and your utter hatred for my country. How about commenting on the issue the thread addresses instead of spreading your usual excrement.
It isn't murder. It is quelling a revolt. When they are committing a violent felony, their life is in danger. It is their own illegal act putting them in the position. Only a complete boob would call that murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Well, there you go.:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
I'm rather convinced that the riots in France were being organized for some time.
The Turkish interviewer was told that it was not a Muslim riot in France as well. The guy wanted to be a French and not be discriminated in anyway. I want job was the other reason I heard.
Every country has such densities, however it blew up in France. I really think that this was an organized one. If not, these guys should have been discriminated in a Medieval Heretic way that such a riot took place. However I believe, our democracy tutors did treat them well..
It isn't murder. It is quelling a revolt.
Explain this bit then
put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it."
Don't seem to get it ....get what , the fact that the police will kill you to teach people a lesson . Hey the French did that in the past , as did the British and countless other countries , it doesn't work .
In fact it turns out to be completely counterproductive .
Edit because some people just are not even worth a response
“LOL, the French treat everyone like shit.”
That is probably because France is the most racist state in the world that the biggest Muslim population in Europe is in France, and the biggest Jewish community in Europe lives in France. They like to be excluded, marginalised and ostracised.~:)
Unfortunately, the answer is a little bit more complicated… The riot started because a social economical problems.
BUT, I don’t think these rioters know what real poverty is. They burn the schools they didn’t intend to go. They blame others for their own incapacity to be creative and to work hard to escape from where they belong. They do not respect their parents, their faith or others social barriers.
I come from a low level of the French society. My ancestors were soldiers (by the way, most of my comrades in arm and NCO were from immigration Portuguese, Algerians, Moroccans, Austrians etc), farmers or workers.
My Grand-father was a Unionist when the police shoot for real on the crowd in 1933-1936. And he was not black or Arabs (by the way, the Chinese and Vietnamese aren’t in the riots, and they are for the immigration too). The police always work for the power… In 1954, the strikes were resolved by machine guns shooting against Renault workers… so give a break with this… It is not in France that people disappeared and the political opponents finished and are tortured in jail but in Algeria, Tunisia, Congo, etc. It is not in France that you are jailed if you eat during the Ramadan but in Algeria.~D
I was aware when I was 16 of the social “determism” ~:confused: (not an English word, but I can’t find the good one) and I found my way. I finished my baccalaureate, joined the army (5 years) then went back to university for 8 years. I am the only one of the 6 children to do it, but I did it. Yes, I had to work in night shift and week-end and during holidays. Yes, it was hard, but you know what you have to do if you want to succeed to escape from factories and unemployment.
As said by Meneldil, most of the pseudo revolutionaries have nice clothes and probably have Ipod and others luxuries…~D
But, as I said, the French have enough of this government which give to the rich, which ignored the populace, which cut all social expenses and want the “petits gens” poorer.
And these people are French. Give them that. The ancestors fought for that, came in France to work and did it. Some gave their lives for France. So, immigration isn’t the problem. The problem is the alienation of the workers (and most of their parents are or were workers) and the real frustration born from this situation. I know it, I had it. I remember what it is when you live in a perpetual humiliation.
Now, some “petite bourgeoises” want to be seen as revolutionaries… In 2 weeks, they will come back in a normal behaviour and will smoke, drink alcohol, were short skirts, kiss their boyfriends in the street and won’t wear the hidjab, protected from the so-called murder of honour or ritual mutilations by the police and the French laws they spat on yesterday…~:cheers:
And the car’s insurance will rise… Again~:)
LOL and some people don't have the stones to stand by what they say...:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Clearly the 18 year old girls just need sex.~:joker:
I joke because I haven’t a clue how to help. Thanks Meneldil for sharing your experiences I feel I have a better understanding of the situation because you have taken the time to share. :bow: I wish I could offer some genuine advice.
If you revolt against the existing authority, you should expect that the existing authority will seek to retain control and that they may use violent means to do so. Phrasing it as "a round in the head" may be a touch crass, but is graphically accurate. Heavens, the Chi-comms would even charge the deceases rioter's family for the bullet used. ~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Historically speaking, you are also incorrect. Most revolts have been quelled by violence and violence can often end practical opposition. Very few revolts have succeeded compared to the number attempted. Napoleon's "whiff of grape," A British Empire governor "reading the Riot Act," etc. all clearly underline the efficacy of the violent response. :knight:
Feel free to argue that such government crackdowns cannot address the antecedent causes of a riot/rebellion, or even that governmental violence against its own citizens is inherently immoral, but please try not to fly in the face of facts. :trytofly:
Because there are far fewer of them, the majority were originally Catholic anti-Communists who 'knew' their place in French society and they were met with far less hostility than immigrants from the Maghreb. Even so, although the 13e is still nice, the 11me seems to have its own problems since the advent of many Chinese...Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Anyway, I understand that you are upset and I do not want to belittle that sentiment, but the spitting has been mutual for a long time. You may not have witnessed it in your neighbourhood, but I have seen too many instances of (both young and old) Arabs being abused by police, shop-owners, etcetera. I am not in the business of justifying riots or murder, but this is not exactly a surprise, is it. It has been predicted for all of twenty five years. If you lump so many social and economic problems together in drab housing estates with virtual fences around them and allow criminals to take over the street, you should not be surprised and cry: 'Oh look, criminals are taking over!"
Oh yes! ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Guess who else are making money again? ~;)Quote:
And the car’s insurance will rise… Again~:)
They were met with far less hostility than immigrants from the Maghreb”: That is right, and also they come as victims of an invasion, not after having rage a war to become independent then, 5 years after, come to the Oppressor to find a job. So, the feeling toward both communities is rather different.~D
If you lump so many social and economic problems together in drab housing estates with virtual fences around them and allow criminals to take over the street, you should not be surprised and cry: 'Oh look, criminals are taking over!" Completely agree!!! But it isn’t specific to the immigration… The poor French are in these Ghettos and are denied of equal opportunities… A friend of mine, lawyer now, was the only workers’ family origin in his university who succeeded. They were 5 at the start (more than 500 candidates)…~:)
And yes, the laws of the Republic should apply to all, in protection as in repression. But Chirac is still not in jail…~D
A British Empire governor "reading the Riot Act," etc. all clearly underline the efficacy of the violent response.
Ever heard of Amritsar ? Did it produce the "necessary moral and widespread effect" (nice line that one isn't it) that was intended to stop the protests and riots or did it mark the beginning of the end of the established rule ?
Historically speaking, you are also incorrect.~D ~D ~D
but please try not to fly in the face of facts.
Yeah right, facts speak for themselves Seamus .
Would you like a pile of other examples ? There are plenty to choose from .
Oh, écoutes.. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
But back to my question: who else is making money?
Mr Kärchner. Ouais!
How far would you go? 1992?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Define intensity? is that damage caused? people dead?
Because on many criteria, beside making good picture and being a good example of some real, actual problems we face (but that noone cares about here), it's rather low intensity.
When you count burnt cars for a "riot", it's actually a good news...
Louis,
You're living in the past, Adrian. Did you fail to notice the extreme reluctancy to use force against the rioters? Do you not see that it is that racaille shooting at the police, and not the other way round? That it took two weeks before a curfew was imposed?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
All that to prevent further escalation. Rightly so, I guess. But you now what? By now my intrinsic French law and order obsessed fascist side is gaining the upper hand. The party is over.
Like a general, you're fighting the previous war. The barbarians are within our gates indeed. But - for once - it's not the dormant French authoritarian undercurrent.Quote:
The barbarians are already within the European gates. They have been there all along and they are awaiting their next chance.
Yes, well note my sig <-Quote:
I know all the ins and outs, man, of Paris.
You're no doubt aware then that Saint Denis harbours the largest Muslim community of France. Having shared a house with some Jews and even a gay, I know who the fascists will be next time. I respect Muslims, but I'm no fool. This time, it's their youth running around in brownshirts, with identical haircuts, frustrated and angry and looking for scapegoats to take the frustration over their miserable little lives out on.
I hear is so bad that Bush is going to send in the Marines. A fireteam leaves for France tommorow. That should put an end to it.~D
The US marines! At last! :jumping:
Why does it always take you guys so long to come bail us out?
*hurries to Normandy to see the show*
No. But I did notice that Sarkozy had not enough police personnel to deal with the fall-out of further escalation. In that case he would have been forced to leave the initiative to De Villepin, backed by Chirac and the army, and this would have made him look like a failure. And there are, after all, presidential elections ahead... These guys were so busy politicking that they missed out on their own riots for seven days and only woke up when their own cars and homes inside the Peripheral Boulevard came under threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
For a moment, I thought you were going to say 'take power'. Anyway, Le Pen has been awfully silent, hasn't he?Quote:
This time, it's their youth running around in brownshirts, with identical haircuts, frustrated and angry and looking for scapegoats to take the frustration over their miserable little lives out on.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Rodney King riot in LA. Provides a very marked contrast to France's pathetic response to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
1. Guard was called up on Day 2, arrived Day 3.
2. The riot was quelled, essentially over by Day 5 which was quiet except for one shooting by Guardsmen.
3. Individuals prevented the spread of the rioting and protected their own property with personal firearms.
4. There was very little spread of the rioting to other cities.
5. We didn't agonize over the civil rights of rioters. We dealt with the riots, then we dealt with the issue that had prompted them.
The sad thing is that the King rioting was poorly directed because it merely destroyed the neighborhoods of those who had a valid beef. Had they marched on the police station and burned it down/etc. then it would have been an appropriate "tit for tat" response and going right to the heart of the problem. Instead it was general wanton destruction.
The riots also happened after justice had "run its course" and failed miserably. It wasn't a quick reaction to an incident, but a long building response to an incident.
Stronger the central government, stronger the response, and stronger the repression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Weaker the central government, later response, tough the response could be strong too.
Yes but America is a highly federalized state, France as centralist as they come. Let's swap 'stronger' for 'competent'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
If only it were that simple. The police and firefighters were nowhere to be seen for two days. Two days of open gun battles left over 50 people dead and over a 1000 buildings burning. And this in only one part of only one town. The planned redevelopment of the area had to fold within five years due to lack of funds. And by the way, you forgot to mention the Harlins shooting which explains the black-Korean confrontation in the midst of the Rodney King riots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Wow, the few, the proud, the Marines! The best soldiers in the world! ~:thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Oh, they can all forget about the presidency. Bunch of incompetent fools.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
No, they're not going to take power. Not power as in taking over the government. But they do have the power to decide who goes where, where you can walk late at night, to make Jews, gays and women stay out of many public spaces, the power to make a bus full of passengers shut up.Quote:
For a moment, I thought you were going to say 'take power'.
Oh, and to decide who is allowed to make what kind of movie in the Netherlands as well...
The FN is having a ball. They're sitting back quietly, feet on the table, going like this:Quote:
Anyway, Le Pen has been awfully silent, hasn't he?
~:rolleyes:
God forbid this racaille seizes power or it will be my turn to set a few cars ablaze.
And yet it was contained far quicker than in France. More severe form of rioting, and contained more quickly. Tells you something about the way Americans do things compared to the French in this case doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
The poor redevelopment actually sent the right message: Don't tear up your own neighborhood and expect someone else to fix it.
What message has France sent? "Please don't hurt us. We don't know what to do." ~:rolleyes: That invites more trouble and France can probably expect wider adoption of the same tactic in the future. We'll see how it works out for France long term. I could take a lot of gratuitous cheap shots at France here, but that is not why I'm posting. I'm posting because weakness in the face of aggression is foolhardy.
And so what about the Harlins shooting? Doesn't really matter much to the scheme of things other than increasing the intensity. I didn't forget it, it just doesn't add anything to the point.
It had to be, because it grew far worse than in France due to LA police incompetence. The Chief of Police couldn't be bothered, he was too busy attending political fundraisers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Reminds me of Sarkozy, sort of. ~;p
Agree. But I was using it in ample sense. For what I had read of France, it's the most liberal country in the world, so the state becomes less centralized and more disperse. Not a bad thing at all, but it's bad as long as it exists private property, the only thing that you do is provoque individual power alienated from society and unbearable imparciality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
I think there is some confusion here. A "lefty" regime are not interested in multi-culturalism. The very basics in a socialist meaning is to create equality among the citizens, this includes culture. Also to note that religion has a direct contradiction towards left politics.
The only lefty we have in these riots are the violence and attempt to revolution.......
The socialist are not against multi-culturalism, nor the communist, they're insterested in economy, the equality refers simply to the having the same resources to satisfy needs, now if you want to go beyond that is your problem, also this has been discussed, in this forums and in a lot of places, millions of times. Religion has a direct contradiction with Communism or anarchism, also with some forms of socialism, because they're materialist, idealism is, to put it simple, pure BS, worthless and dispicable like all forms of drugs. There's of course, a difference in the treatment that you'll receive from those three archetypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
I agree in the last part, but not because this is not lefty, just because it can be from both sides, liberalism also looks for equality before the law, that's a fiction, but if you like it then go for it (btw that's idealism, just to example it).
As you know, I equal religion to politics, since it in fact is a system applied for a society. Never the less, I don't think that there are ANY modern ideologies these days that speaks for multi culturalism. The problem we have today is the increased protectionism and nationalism around the world. US closes it's borders, middle east states alienates themselves to the world and EU creating a bastion of borders around the member states.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Liberalismen is many times identified with France, but I think that the failed French colonial empire have created contradictions in the French society. People are classified depending on ethnic background, even if it is not the intention of the society.
Here you have the problem. Young people have a problem with their identity. They are taught that everyone are equal, have guaranteed rights etc, but in reality it's something totally different.
The immigrant have in reality nothing in common with other immigrants more than that he is classified by the society in to a group.
This leads to frustration and when it surface, we see the riots we have in France.
Guard went in as 50 people died and a billion dollar worth of goods went in smoke...Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
We are nowhere near that. I am pretty sure that if the situation is getting as bad as in LA 1992, then yes, you would see a lot more brutal and lethal action from the police forces.
Agonizing over the civil rights of rioters... is a forum thingy :)
Louis,
I didn't know that ~:) . Anyway this problems that you talk about are all related to capitalism, it generates a good and efficient working economics mechanic, but if you introduce an strange subject on the equation, things like employament, offer, demand and also the very basis of private property, fall like domino. Holding this system non of this countries should at the same time open the borders, they should close them.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
In a western country everything, including the socialistic part, have a capitalistic flavor over it. The problem occur when you promise something with socialistic direction and you can't live up to the politicial promise. For example, creating jobs or provide health care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
“Wow, the few, the proud, the Marines! The best soldiers in the world!” After the Legion, of course (I can’t resist, sorry)~D
Perhaps the more concise and explanatory post so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
By the way, "Determinism" does exist in English ~;)
NEWS FLASH!
This one is hot off the wire folks:
In case you were wondering, this is totally, to my knowledge, fake.Quote:
President Bush May Send Up To 5 Marines For French Assistance
by Richard Harrison for the Washington Post
President Bush has authorized the Joint Chiefs to begin drawing up a battle plan to pull France's ass out of the fire again. Facing an apparent overwhelming force of up to 400 pissed off teenagers Mr. Bush doubts France's ability to hold off the little pissants. "Hell, if the last two world wars are any indication, I would expect France to surrender any day now", said Bush.
Joint Chiefs head, Gen. Peter Pace, warned the President that it might be necessary to send up to 5 Marines to get things under control. The general admitted that 5 Marines may be overkill but he wanted to get this thing under control within 24 hours of arriving on scene. He stated he was having a hard time finding even one Marine to help those ungrateful bastards out for a third time but thought that he could persuade a few women Marines to do the job before they went on pregnancy leave.
President Bush asked Gen. Pace to get our Marines out of there as soon as possible after order was restored. He also reminded Gen. Pace to make sure the Marines did not take soap, razors, or deodorant with them. The least they stand out the better.
All Rights Reserved, Washinton Post, 2005
In all seriousness, I wish the French the best of luck in combating this.
Crazed Rabbit
I hope Bush won't send more because "Hell, if the last two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are any indication, I would expect France to break into civil war any day now"Quote:
President Bush May Send Up To 5 Marines For French Assistance
This is the first time one of your post make me smile Rabbit
Violence seems to be decreasing now, perhaps we'll need only three or four Marines ~D
Nice one Crazed Rabbit!
“President Bush May Send Up To 5 Marines For French Assistance”: He can’t do it, not enough troops. It will overstretch the US Army capacity. And if you see the speed they deployed in Louisiana. They will arrived too late, anyway~D
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174670,00.htmlQuote:
Paris Rioters Burn Ambulance and Stone Medics
Saturday, November 05, 2005
ACHERES, France — More than 250 predominantly Muslim youths were arrested in Paris' suburbs Saturday during the ninth straight day of rioting—and the worst day of arson—since the riots began more than a week ago.
Youths armed with gasoline bombs moved from Paris' poor, troubled suburbs to shatter the calm of higher-class towns, torching roughly 900 vehicles, a nursery school and other targets.
Police deployed small teams of officers backed by a helicopter to track and chase down youths who sped from one attack to another in cars and on motorbikes.
The violence — originally concentrated in neighborhoods northeast of Paris with large immigrant populations — is forcing France (search) to confront anger long-simmering in its suburbs, where many Africans and their French-born children live on society's margins, struggling with unemployment, poor housing, racial discrimination, crime and a lack of opportunity.
Triggered by the deaths of two teenagers who were electrocuted while fleeing from police, the unrest has taken on unprecedented scope and intensity. The violence hit far-flung corners of France on Saturday, from Rouen in Normandy (search) to Bordeaux in the southwest to Strasbourg (search) near the German border, but the Paris region has borne the brunt.
In quiet Acheres, on the edge of the St. Germain forest west of the capital, arsonists burned a nursery school, where part of the roof caved in, and about a dozen cars in four attacks over an hour that the mayor said seemed "perfectly organized."
Children's photos clung to the blackened walls, and melted plastic toys littered the floor. Residents gathered at the school gate demanded that the army be deployed or suggested that citizens band together to protect their neighborhoods.
Mayor Alain Outreman (search) tried to cool tempers.
"We are not going to start militias," he said. "You would have to be everywhere."
In one particularly malevolent attack, youths in the eastern Paris suburb of Meaux (search) prevented paramedics from evacuating a sick person from a housing project. They pelted rescuers with rocks, then torched the awaiting ambulance, an Interior Ministry official said.
By daybreak Saturday, 897 vehicles were destroyed — a sharp rise from the 500 burned a night earlier, police said. It was the worst one-day toll since the unrest erupted Oct. 27 following the accidental electrocution of the two teenagers who hid in a power substation, apparently believing police were chasing them.
Anger has spread to the Internet, with blogs mourning the youths.
Along with messages of condolence and appeals for calm were insults targeting police, threats of more violence and warnings that the unrest will feed support for France's anti-immigration extreme right.
"Civil war is declared. There will no doubt be deaths. Unfortunately, we have to prepare," said a posting signed "Rania."
"We are going to destroy everything. Rest in peace, guys," wrote "Saint Denis."
Police detained 258 people overnight, almost all in the Paris region, and dozens of them will be prosecuted, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said after a government crisis meeting. He warned of possibly heavy sentences for burning cars.
"Violence penalizes those who live in the toughest conditions," he said.
Most rioting has been in towns with low-income housing projects where unemployment and distrust of police run high. But in a new development, arsonists were moving beyond their heavily policed neighborhoods to attack others with less security, said a national police spokesman, Patrick Hamon.
"They are very mobile, in cars or scooters. ... It is quite hard to combat" he said. "Most are young, very young, we have even seen young minors."
There appeared to be no coordination between separate groups in different areas, Hamon said. But within gangs, he added, youths are communicating by cell phones or e-mails. "They organize themselves, arrange meetings, some prepare the Molotov cocktails."
In Torcy, close to Disneyland Paris, a youth center and a police station were set ablaze. In Suresnes, on the Seine River west of the capital, 44 cars were burned in a parking lot.
"We thought Suresnes was calm," said Naima Mouis, a hospital employee whose car was torched into a twisted hulk of metal.
On Saturday morning, more than 1,000 people took part in a silent march in one of the worst-hit suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois. Local officials wore sashes in the red-white-and-blue of the French flag as they filed past housing projects and the wrecks of burned cars. One white banner read "No to violence."
Anger was fanned days ago when a tear gas bomb exploded in a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois, north of Paris — the same suburb where the youths were electrocuted.
Sarkozy also has inflamed passions by referring to troublemakers as "scum."
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin denied that police were to blame. The director of the Great Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, who met Saturday with Villepin, urged the government to choose its words carefully and send a message of peace.
"In such difficult circumstances, every word counts," Boubakeur said.
Civil war guys; get your buts in gear and shoot any one who is holding a brick/Molotov.
Yeah, France will surrender way before then...~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
By the way, the Marines and Army are separate organizations with substantial inter service rivalry. If you refer to them by the wrong service name like this those same 5 marines might pose a bigger risk than the rioters.
“the Marines and Army are separate organizations”, : Well like the Legion and French Army, I suppose. But they still fight and die for the same country I bet.~:)
“Yeah, France will surrender way before then”: To whom? To the others French? Is it an uprising? No Sire, it is Revolution… No link between the two, but I couldn’t resist. Still, the Marines can’t deploy in less of two weeks (riots in France)? No good, not good. ~D
I think there more than 5 marines in France: Are the guards in the US Embassy Marines? If so, they are not so efficient…~;)
Well, firstly, thanks for posting outdated news ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by ceasar010
Secondly, if you want to post something about France, I guess FoxNews isn't the best sources, since they are probably more anti-french than our most leftist politican is anti-american.
Anyway, back to the topic, I must admit that some cops are a bunch of illiterate neo-nazis, but I still stand by the fact the racism toward the arab community is caused by the behaviour of the community, and not the other way around.
Things are starting to calm down (a few riots here and there, a young guy attacked a mosquee yesterday), but France will probably not be the same now.
Just heard about the riots in Lyon on BBC News, here's the link -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4430540.stm
Someone in France could shine more light on this I hope.
Gee, I hope everything is going okay over there ~:cheers:
Brenus,
You are confused on a few things...it was the National Guard, not the regular Army or Marines that took so long to deploy. But that isn't relevant for foreign ventures...we deploy rapidly for those, that was one of the key irritants during the hurricane response, how rapidly we deployed Federal relief elsewhere, versus at home.
The big question by the U.S. pundits was who the French would surrender to? And indeed which side would capitulate first since both "sides" are at least nominally French.
The good news is, Mike Brown is looking for work, so you might be able to employ him in the effort to clean up/gain control of the situation.
Quick my lads the frogs are down, its time to once and for all conquer France in the name of St. George, a thoroughly Protestant god, some nice tea oh and some bisciuts, Albion, the sake of being english and the Plantagenets!:charge:
Amnesty doesn't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Because Arabs bear brunt of French Police Racism.
Which led to Saint Denis French Muslims Craving For Government Attention for quite some time since before the riots.
The Arabs communities need to get (large segments of) their youth in check. But we need to get our act together as well, and think of a way to finally integrate them. It can't carry on like this.
Yes, we're in for a rough ride. ~:mecry:Quote:
Things are starting to calm down (a few riots here and there, a young guy attacked a mosquee yesterday), but France will probably not be the same now.
I wonder where JAG is, so the 'great social system' the French have can be defended from this pesky reality and accompanying facts.~;)
Crazed Rabbit
LOL rabbit......I wonder where he is also and if he will still defend "the great social system"~:joker:
Which, by definition, aren't even French. ~D :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Wrong. 90% Officers are French, and between 30% and 40% of the Legionaires are French.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
Maybe he's still so ashamed by the complete failure of the anglo-saxon liberal systems that he hasn't noticed the riots yet. ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Great, it's not as if unemployement affected the youth as a whole, and not only the arab communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV
I mean, when people with BAC+5 can't get a decent job (or can't get a job at all), no wonder an arab from Clichy who left school at 16 and can hardly speak a correct french will have a hard time doing so.
Whats the story with Sarkozy getting booed by the police and security services when he addressed them , are they not happy with him for some reason or other ?
I heard that if the police don't get this under control, the Prime Minister has threatened to bring the Germans back in
~:cheers:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
He keeps pissing people off, and then the pissed off people throw rocks and petrol bombs at them.
I find the vindictiveness with which the French are condemning the rioters rather ironic, after all, the French have a long, proud history of political rioting and once again the oppressed are demanding an end to their oppression in the only viable way they have access to. While the rioters could have used more effective tactics (such as targeting government infrastructure instead of individuals or expressing more coherent demands) they are doing the same thing as many lionized Frenchmen and women before them. I wonder if Nicholas Sarkozy would declare those who stormed the Bastille in 1789 or who took to the streets in 1968 scum? Somehow I seriously doubt it, especially in the former case. It would seem that to be scum, and to warrant police repression, you have to have the wrong color skin, or at least the wrong politics. Of course this sort of thing is not restricted to France and its dealings with its poor, Muslim minority; it is rampant across the entire world. When a State is forced to resort to large scale coercive force to maintain order it has become a police-state, relying on repression rather than the support, or at least the acquiescence, of the people to maintain its own power. Perhaps if more people realized that any State which drives its own people, or allows an unjust economic system to drive its people, to violent rioting is illegitimate we could live in a world marked by true social peace, rather than one of simmering social unrest waiting to be set off.
Yay, Rotterdam joins the fray. No arrests of course, hey it's Holland, the only gun the police uses here are laserguns aimed at our wallets. I know where I'll be heading this saturday, this is going to hurt ~:cheers:
Well, once again, this comparison is *really* silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
The Revolution in 1789 was led by enlightened upper class bourgeois. The low-classes were just a tool, but then, the low-classes peasants (90% of the total population) really lived like slaves. No property, no rights except dying from starvation, etc.
The rioters in 1968 (who were IMO a bunch of idiots) did not burn thousands of cars, did not set fire at old women, did not kill innocents just for the fun of it. They had a somewhat legitimate (although stupid) claim. There were also led by the intellectual elites.
Now, the people rioting here are people whose main occupation is to steal, rape, smoke, deal drug and scare their neighbours, led by radical imams and illiterate gang leaders. They represent what 0.5 ? 1, at best 2 % of the population in France. They have a shitload of different claims, but these are just excuses to riot and to throw whatever they find at cops.
It is highly unlikely that stealing, raping, smoking and drug dealing youth would have any common ground with radical imams. So far the first radical imam behind any of the riots has yet to be found, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
When they steal, rape and deal drugs they justify it with their faith AdrianII. I highly doubt there is a radical imam behind all this but Islam is the dividing factor here, be it an excuse or not. You want to throw it all on their living conditions, then explain to me why it is spreading to Holland, Belgium, Greek and even Denmark(!). I am just going to kick the shit out of them next saturday, wanna come?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Oh sure. Dealing drugs for Allah. Raping in the name of the Prophet (honoured be his name). LOL! What propaganda have you been reading now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
No, I have jihad training in the Ardennes on Saturday mornings.Quote:
I am just going to kick the shit out of them next Saturday, wanna come?
Not so fast...in the U.S. the prisons have quite a few of converts to Islam. Their background is of course: theft, rape, drugs, murder, etc. (Whether or not they have reformed while in prison is a separate matter.) You really can't reject the possibility of radical imams on that basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
And from what I've heard it is not uncommon for jihadists to have some interesting chemicals in their systems during combat. Considering radical imams think suicide bombing is OK, I wouldn't put much of anything past them, nor their followers.
Oh sure. Dealing drugs for Allah. Raping in the name of the Prophet (honoured bhis name). LOL! What propaganda have you been reading now?
You are pretty uninformed for a journalist. Find me a dutch radical muslim without a crime record if you please. It is called 'funding'.
LOL! What propaganda have you been reading now?
NRC Handelsblad and De Trouw mostly.
No, I have jihad training in the Ardennes on Saturday mornings
Owww common, It will be fun. Maybe a nice item for your newspaper, the shit is going to hit the fan next saturday, unless it stops of course.
Find me some radical imams behind the French riots, that's what we are on about. Until now, all that imams have done in these neighbourhoods is to patrol the streets in the evenings and to call for calm, to urge parents to keep their children off the streets and to explain in their Friday sermons that the rioting is an abomination in the eyes of Allah. Heck, a lot of rioters aren't even of Arab or Muslim descent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Unless you and Red Harvest can come up with the goods, you had better keep those tinfoil hats out of sight. They look rather silly.
I never said they were, the imams cannot control them, they lost them a long time ago. But to say that Islam has nothing to do with it is just silly. But how much proof do you need really? When you will finally recognise the proof it will be slicing of your head. Explain to me the occurance of riots in those other countries please, and I would like to hear the words 'social exclusion'.
Riots in The Netherlands? Four cars were set on fire in Rotterdam in an apparent copy-cat action. No riots, no confrontations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Anyway, since there is an urban underclass in most European countries I wouldn't be surprised to see more such incidents. If you want to know what I really think is a major cause of such behaviour, it would be the criminal subculture in these neighbourhoods, reinforced by the drug trade.
I didn't know one would have to follow the teaching of Islam to be a radicam muslim.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
And, yeah, we won't find any radical Imam among the rioters, but what's happening is what these imams have been preaching for for years.
What does 'a lot' stand for ? 10% ? 20% ? Of course, there are the blacks, who aren't arabs, but who are also mostly muslims. I'd be surprised if more than 20% of the rioters are actually white or 'asians' (who might aswell have converted to Islam, since it's somewhat fancy lately)Quote:
Heck, a lot of rioters aren't even of Arab or Muslim descent.
I don't know what you would call 200 north africans with knives, baseballbats and gassoline that are shouting 'the war has begun'. And a lot more happened then the newspapers are willing to print, people have been molested while the police were doing their thing (which is nothing). Screw excuses, we are going to peel them thinly and turn them into sails so they may have some use after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
LINKQuote:
November 08, 2005
Spencer: Jihad in Europe?
This morning in FrontPage I follow up on this piece by pulling together a bit more of the evidence about what is happening in France (and elsewhere in Europe now). Many news links in the original:
Has an intifada begun in France — an all-out jihad? Are the French facing what is by now, as the riots are well into their second week and have engulfed virtually the entire country, a full-scale insurrection from immigrant youth who simply resent being marginalized and shunted to the fringes of French society? Or does the unrest have something to do with the agenda of jihadists worldwide? As is becoming increasingly well known, Osama bin Laden and others all over the world want to unify the Islamic world under a restored caliphate, reestablish the rule of Islamic law, and extend the hegemony of that law, Sharia, to the rest of the world also. Does that play any role in the French riots?
Evidence so far is somewhat sketchy. Mainstream media reports have centered on the rioters’ economic and cultural marginalization. “Theirs,” laments AP, “is a drab life of days spent smoking hashish, hanging out on street corners.” An 18-year-old named Ahmed complains: “You wear these clothes, with this color skin and you’re automatically a target for police.” Some analysts, indulging in various degrees of schadenfreude, have alleged that France’s ingrained racism, snobbery toward outsiders, and mistreatment of Muslim immigrants are responsible for the riots.
Yet the horror stories detailing this mistreatment that are now filling the news do not entirely ring true. France has not neglected its sizable Muslim minority. Not too long ago it established an official organization to oversee French Islam, the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), and has even discussed revising France’s secular laws to allow the government to fund mosques in France, in order to wean them away from “extremist” foreign influences.
Nor have Muslims been marginalized in French public life. Dalil Boubakeur, leader of the CFCM and imam of the Paris mosque, enjoys high visibility. After the French government announced plans to expel jihadist imams from France in May 2004, then-Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin told Boubakeur that he wanted to “reassure the Muslim community” of “his willingness to treat it as he treats other faiths.” Boubakeur explained that as far as Raffarin was concerned, “there is no lumping together of the expulsion of imams and the Muslim community in general.” When two French journalists were kidnapped in Iraq in August 2004, then-Interior Minister (and current Prime Minister) Dominique de Villepin went to Boubakeur’s mosque to join Muslims in prayer for their release — and drew applause when he spoke of the unity between non-Muslims and Muslims in France.
De Villepin’s mosque visit was emblematic of France’s ongoing efforts to make its Muslim population feel included, loved, and French — efforts they are now being universally excoriated for not having made. And there are several indications that the riots are not wholly or solely about economic and social marginalization at all, and that the Islamic jihad agenda is a significant element fueling their continuing spread:
• It has long been established that there is a significant jihadist presence among French Muslims. Recently six Muslims in Paris were arrested for recruiting for the jihad in Iraq.
• The rioters have been shouting the jihad battle cry, “Allahu akbar.” As Muhammad Atta wrote in his final exhortation to himself, “When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, ‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers.” While the mainstream media continues to identify the rioters as “French-born youths of Arab or African origin, many of them Muslim,” in fact the Islamic identity of the rioters is quite clear: rioters have avoided Muslim-owned businesses, preferring obviously non-Muslim targets.
• The rioters have thrown Molotov cocktails at two French synagogues, making it likely that they subscribe to the deeply rooted hatred of Jews that so many jihadists share. They have also set two churches on fire, further reinforcing the impression that they view their struggle as fundamentally religious, and consider the terrorizing of Jews and Christians to be part of their religious responsibility, in accord with Qur’an 9:29, which directs Muslims to wage war even against “the People of the Book”: the Qur’an’s term for — primarily — Jews and Christians.
• Mouloud Dahmani is a Muslim leader in France who is trying to prevail upon the French to allow for a group of Muslim Brotherhood sheikhs to negotiate an end to the riots. The Muslim Brotherhood, of course, is the first modern Islamic jihad organization and the direct forefather of Hamas and Al-Qaeda. Dahmani has declared: “All we demand is to be left alone.” This is a strange statement coming from the leader of a community that resents being marginalized and longs to enter the mainstream of French society. Left alone? Quite literally. Journalist Amir Taheri says that the Muslims in France are not actually interested in assimilation at all; rather, they want autonomy: “Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the ‘millet’ system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.” He reports that “in parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place.” Muslim leaders control the area and French officials, including police, simply do not enter.
• Postings on Muslim weblogs indicate that the riots are not spontaneous outpourings of rage, but carefully planned endeavors. Some revealed not only the planning involved in the riots, which have now swept all across France and have spread also to Denmark, Belgium and Germany, but also the Islamic supremacist goal behind them. One wrote: “The cops are petrified of us, everything must burn, starting Monday, the operation ‘Midnight Sun’ starts, tell everyone else, rendezvous for Momo and Abdul in Zone 4 ... jihad Islamia Allah Akhbar.” Another added: “You don’t really think that we’re going to stop now? Are you stupid? It will continue, non-stop. We aren’t going to let up. The French won’t do anything and soon, we will be in the majority here.”
Meanwhile, the Union for Islamic Organizations of France, which has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, has issued a fatwa declaring: “It is formally forbidden to any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone’s life.” There is a strange ambiguity in this, recalling that of the CAIR-backed American fatwa condemning attacks on innocent civilians without defining “innocent”: what constitutes attacking “blindly”? Is a focused, targeted attack somehow acceptable?
The time for such ambiguity is long past. And indeed, lines are being drawn everywhere.
It's not their faith. It's because the average French person uses being 'republican' as an excuse to be racist to anyone who isn't white French. Even part of the French beurocracy said so recently.
Holland/Belgium/Denmark/Greece/Germany/Spain?Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC
So why arent the Jews and blacks(african frenchman?) who arent Musliim not rioting?Quote:
It's not their faith. It's because the average French person uses being 'republican' as an excuse to be racist to anyone who isn't white French. Even part of the French beurocracy said so recently.
Hush, that is a valid question given the situation and we don't like that over here. A yugoslavian friend once told me, when the muslim population in a non-muslim country grows bigger then 10% of the overall population then civil war will errupt, and don't they know it. France is proving them wrong with just 1%, they have 9%. All the countries I mentioned before are about 8% jihadmeat, France is learning the hard way that they shouldn't adopt primitive cultures because envy is a bitch when you don't slap it like one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
The moral of the story seems to be, don’t let other cultures/religions/races in mass into your country.
Not saying that I can’t work, the US is a good example of it working (not for the Native Americans) but there has been a lot of hostility here between cultures/religions/races, it is a delicate balance for sure.
Because you read all the wrong blogs. Nothing new there. All this talk of 'Intifadah in France' is just grey noise, the result of middle America working off its small-town blues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Look, there are basically two strains of salafism/wahhabism at work in the Muslim world.
As I said, just give me a couple of phat, juicy French riot imams to sink my teeth in. I won't walk away from the issue. I am genuinely interested in what happens. Of course don't buy the Milosevic line on 10% Muslims = trouble, that is just fascist propaganda, Fragony. And I have this strange attachment to a thing called civilisation, so I never join demonstrations that are intended to 'beat the shit' out of someone or other.
- The 'pious' strain that turns its back on worldly affairs and strives for the pure inner life, which happens to be peaceful and non-political as well. These 'sheikists' as they are known observe all the rules prescribed by stern mullahs. In case of religious emergency they dial a number in one of the Gulf states to get a fatwa telling them whether it is okay to go shopping after dark or something. They are just like Jewish followers of some rabbi or other who order their matzes from the Supreme Rabbinate of Jerusalem. Weird, but not dangerous at all, and certainly not involved in the French riots.
- The militant strain that strives for a new Khalifate. These imams gather very small groups of followers in total isolation from the surrounding society. This isolation is necessary to prepare the followers psychologically for the tasks ahead. Such imams would have to be complete idiots to asociate with rioters and street gangs, thus exposing their networks to police scrutiny.
I would like to see you trying to beat up a 17-year-old streetwise Moroccan though. I know whom I'd put my money on.
~;p
You better put it on the 57 year old street wise New Yorker and ex Marine my friend.Quote:
I would like to see you trying to beat up a 17-year-old streetwise Moroccan though. I know whom I'd put my money on.
I could say the same of you. Besides I dont live in middle america nor a small town.Quote:
Because you read all the wrong blogs. Nothing new there. All this talk of 'Intifadah in France' is just grey noise, the result of middle America working off its small-town blues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Hey Adrian, what was and still the main export in Afganastan? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't berkas or Qurans, it was something that grows and has a pretty flower. So your drug arguement holds no water, like most of your posts. If you're a journalist then that must explain why the news is so inaccurate these days.
Doesn't this fit in with the idea of "French-born youths of Arab or African origin, many of them Muslim"? Lots of malcontent kids who think it's cool to shout Allahu akbar without understanding why, but who will probably grow out of this kind of behaviour as they become older? It's the way with most of kids, to naturally seek extremes when there isn't a guiding hand to keep an eye on them, in poltical as well as social contexts; as the years go by this tends to turn milder among most, whilst a few nutters get stuck in such ways. Granted, the extremes they're seeking now are intolerable and should be punished but it does fit in with the general behaviour of rebellious youths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
To be honest this also reeks of youths. What kind of a serious jihadist would go around posting on websites? Youths use internet and mobile phones continuously and are well at home when it comes to organizing things through electronic means; like Fragony when he states he's planning to taunt Muslims in the weekend, presumably alongside friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Former Yugoslavians have a great track record when it comes to ethnic tolerance, don't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony