B) It's Zukov and Konev's fault. And who ever is responsible fo intelligence, Bria I hope.
A) keep fighting. Soon the americans wil land in the west.
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B) It's Zukov and Konev's fault. And who ever is responsible fo intelligence, Bria I hope.
A) keep fighting. Soon the americans wil land in the west.
What are the total Russian vs German losses so far?
A: It is time for peace... The Germans have suffered negliable losses to their best units (at least that is what it seems like), while we have lost ours completely, units that have been built up for so long. What will stop the Germans? Besides even if winter does come early (and I think it does) it will be in a long time still and the Germans have learned their lessons in winterwarfare.
B: The airforces failed miserably. They held superior numbers for a long time, yet they failed to utilize it or even give good intelligence about the German formations. Also Konev clearly pulled Zhukov in the wrong direction at each turn. Intelligence also failed to see through the German deception at least marginally.
It is not fair to blame the air force. They did the best they could and had high casualties as well.
Soviets had 2,400 planes vs. 2,000 German planes. The quality of the planes was equal (in 1943), the skill of the German pilots, leaders and the German tactic was better. So both forces had comparable stregth.
Germans had some tactical advantages (which they did not have during Zitadelle):
- The Red air force supported the attack from the very first day. They made ground attacks during the break through and screened the advancing troops. So combat strength decreased. Both very successful. In this first phase the Germans did not do much; they just made recon and prevented that the Soviet recons came too far north or south.
- In phase two - the crossing of the Dnjepr and the assault of Kiev - made things harder for the Soviets. They had to fly over a long distance to reach their targets while the Germans just took off and attacked. The Germans could make three raids while the Soviets could only make one. So over the battlefield there were more German planes.
- Damaged German planes could often return to their bases too.
- If the Soviets made a raid against Kursk area the Germans spotted them when they entered the corridor. They knew the numbers, formation, altidute .... They could chose if and when to attack. They could even attack several times while the Soviets flew to and from the target.
- When the Germans attacked the Soviets had little time to react. They could not send more planes from their home bases. So they had to have their patrols everywhere, at the combat units and all along the way to protect the supply chain. This overstretched their strength.
In truth, the blame probably lies with Stalin. In 1943 what happened was the Germans attacked at Kursk, were worn down by the strong defensive positions, then the soviets counterattacked against the weakened force. In our alternate 1943 the unweakened germans retreated towards an apparent defensive position along the Dnjepr. The Soviets followed headlong on a narrow front to undo the potentially strong defensive position opening up the possibility of the encirclement by the strong German force.
In hind sight, the best approach would have been to advance cautiosly on a broadfront to prevent a salient developing, but Stalin would not have accepted that. The swift thrust works against a weakened army as it strikes at the morale as well as supply/ position. It was never going to work against an army which was strong, getting good supply and new equipment. In some ways it mirrors the retreat to Mons by the BEF in 1914 - they retreated a significant distance and when the pursueing Germans were stretched, they turned and stopped the Germans.
We were as guilty as any in misreading the situation - we all thought something was possible and were swept along with the general feeling of possible victory. A salutory lession I believe.
Kurt,
what is your proposal for question A)?
Instinctively, I want to fight on - I would see a defence line forming somewhere to the east - I think the memory of the excesses of the german army since the begining of the war would galvanise the defence. However, thinking as stalin, I go for negociations - I am sure he would assume that the west were selling him out - lack of supplies, no 2nd front etc. Also I think it would give the alternate history an interesting twist - I also detected in a recent Franconicus post a hint of resurgence of a nazi faction - that would be interesting as well.
So it is two votes for peace and one for fight.
kagemusha?
I meant that the flyers failed to notice the massive buildup of armour at either flank. In fact the entire left flank was pretty much a black hole of information.
The tanks themselves can be hidden but not their logistics. Thus it is normally fairly easy to notice strong forces of armoured forces if the weather permits, and it did, unlike in the Ardennes (also much more forest).
I wonder if you are right.
The Germans gathered supply at these points:
Kiev, Tschernihiw, Tscherkassy and Poltawa.
They did it weeks before the Russian operations started.
The transport to Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy was via boat, to Poltawa via train.
Most of the corps were hidden in the towns. And please remember that Russia is quite big. We talk about a very big area. And it was shielded by German fighters.
By the way, the Soviets had information.
There was info that the Germans were transported to Kiev, the British intelligence told you that they build a new line of defence at the Dnjepr and the four commanders received the message that German tanks crossed the Dnjepr at Tscherkassy before two tank corps hit your flank.
Looks like the Soviet commanders either believed that the German tanks left Russia or that they would all stand west of the Dnjepr. If they thought the Germans would threaten the flank they would have taken care of Tscherkassy and Tschernihiw.
I do not doubt that it could happen, but the fact that if it did happen there would be blame to put, and fairly.
Even the Allies knew the Germans had gathered fairly substantial forces in the Ardennes, even tanks. They just thought it would be like the battle further south in Lorraine with limited forces and limited goals.
So it wasn't even as if a much more easily covered force was completely hidden.
By any standards the Russian spotters shoul have noticed quite a bit of stuff going on down there almost as soon as the forces got to the river.
While you can stockpile a lot of stuff, you can't sever the need for outside supplies. Just the need for food is immense, add to that the fuel, various non-combat things and spare parts. Well you would still have a substantial amount of trains and trucks going about the place.
The Russians actually did this at Kursk. They tried to keep the Steppe Front hidden. They couldn't, but they did keep the specifics of the Front hidden (name, composition even it's readiness), and I believe this would have been a similar case. Something would have been spotted, and then reported. THen it would have been up to the bosses to figure out if those sighting s were fishy or merely the remnants...
THE WAR GOES ON
August 21st; Poltawa – Eastern Front
Manstein and his generals go into a huddle.
“Gentlemen, the Second Battle of Kiev is won, thanks to the outstanding performance of the German troops and their allies. I know that the past weeks were full of pain for everyone. But in the end we received victory. I want to congratulate all of you; the complex manoeuvres were done with greatest precision and I think it deserves a place in military history.
Three complete Soviet fronts are beaten. 1,200,000 soldiers, 1,500 tanks and 14,000 guns are encircled. They are disorganized and resistance will break down soon. The Soviets tried to release them but Hausser’s brilliant manoeuvre caught the release force too. Our infantry corps are currently clearing the trap. In total the Red Army will loose 1.6 million soldiers, 4,300 tanks, 22,000 guns and 1,600 planes. Additionally we will capture 100,000 trucks and other vehicles as well as other equipment.
Our losses are 132,000 soldiers, 1,100 tanks and assault tanks and 1,000 planes. Despite these losses the German army is intact. The casualties of tanks are already replaced and I cam say our tank force is even stronger than before the battle. However, we are not able to replace the men and planes immediately.
Gentlemen, the battle is won, but the war goes on. I know that all of you deserve a break but I have to send you into combat again. The Soviets mobilize their reserves. The rest of the three fronts conglomerates north of Sumy. We think that they have 265,000 soldiers, 1,250 tanks and 5,250 guns. They try to form a new front, named ‘Central Front’. This front will do everything to slow our advance.
Further east, near Kursk, the Soviets gather 400,000 men, 1,800 tanks and 4,000 guns. Although this is a lot these forces are untrained and unorganized.
The Red Air Force received reinforcements too. We think they have 2,800 planes now. Be aware that they will cause us trouble in the near future.
These numbers show that the Soviets are not finished. They are crippled, but if they have enough time to reorganize, they will be as strong as before. Therefore I decided to attack at once.
This is the operation plan.
The Luftwaffe will start a massive raid against the Soviet airfields tomorrow morning. We have to knock them off for a while. The two tank corps of the 9th Army – the 41st and the 47th – have still more than 800 tanks. They will advance east between the Desna and the railroad. The tank corps of the 4th Tank Army – the 2nd SS and the 48th with 950 tanks – will advance south of the railroad. Move as fast as possible. Avoid attacking strong positions or formations. Leave that to the infantry. Your best armour is speed. Your strategic goals are to crush the Central Front before it reaches Kursk. Then advance further to wipe out the forces west of the Don. The advance is finished if you reach the Don. Do not let any Soviet forces cross the river!
To the 8th Tank Army: The 57th Tank Corps and the 7th Corps will attack Charkov. The Soviets won’t be able to stand this attack for long. The 3rd Tank Corps will stay were it is. It is our reserve in case the Soviets try to break our ring.
The infantry corps will clear the trap. As soon as this is done they will move east too. They can then fight cut off units. Only the 31th Corps is withdrawn from the front. They suffered too many casualties. They will gather the prisoners and the captured equipment. We will use the trucks to equip our infantry corps. We will also use the heavy artillery. Most of the tanks and the ATGs will be given to the Romanians. They will be able to transform a cavalry corps into a tank corps.
At August 28th the 4th Army, the 2nd Tank Army, the 1st Tank Army and the 6th Army will join the operation and we will invade at the whole southern front.
Gentlemen, I know I make big demands, but it is time now to end the war against Russia and I expect everyone to make sacrifices to reach this goal.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
August 21st; Berlin - Germany
Reichskanzler Goebbels addresses the German people. The speech is broadcasted. He annunciates the big victory against the Soviets. He expresses his trust in the German armed forces to defend the country against its enemies. Then he talks about the crimes of the Nazi regime. He apologizes by all victims and by the rest of the German population. At the end of the speech he proclaims the disbandment of the NSDAP and all of its organisations. He calls for the foundation of new parties and unions. Then he declares his reassignment and nominates Rudolf Ameluxen new Reichskanzler. The crowd, carefully pre-selected – applauds and celebrates Goebbels and Ameluxen.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
No desicions today. You can speculate what will happen. I just wanted to give Kraxis some numbers before he is on holiday.
Gah!:embarassed: I missed the last chapter,but i also think that Stalin should try to open peace negotations.
About our little disaster in Kiev.Now that i look at it from perspective.I think our attack deployment was the worst failure.We deployed all our troops in the attack without good strategig reserve.This isnt ment to be i sayed so,but here im quoting myself from very early chapter::bow:
Quote:
I take the option II. There is no turning back at this point now. But i would still like to express my worries.Soon we are starting an frontal assault on Kiev and we are making those bridgeheads on both sides also.If i think myself as an German commander i would infact let the Russians cross the rivers and becouse the bridgeheads will be hard to defend and supply those can be turned into deathtraps.If the German center at Kiev can stop our center(Which i think is highly possible). A gathered Assault on our flank can lead to an biggest encirclement in the whole war.We have to remeber that our armies are between two major rivers.If i would worry about our flank it would be the Southern flank.
Thank you Franconicus (your name keeps popping up as Fronconius) :bow:.
I too sensed looming disaster all along almost, interesting that we went into the trap anyway. I guess we did what has happened so many times in history, we didn't listen to our gutinstincts but chased glory.
But I must also admit that initially I didn't pick my choices as per what I thought was best but what I thought would be typical Russian... That was what I thought we should do. I learned in time but by then the disaster was already coming.
ANKARA - ALEXANDRIA
August 23rd; Ankara - Turkey
The Soviet ambassador in Turkey transmits his German counterpart a note via the Turkish foreign minister. The Soviets offer a parley in a neutral country like Turkey and suggest an immediate ceasefire.
After consulting Berlin the German ambassador accepts the offer for peace negotiations under the conditions that the negotiations will take place at Kiev and that the Soviets will send authorized persons. He refuses the ceasefire offer.
August 24th, Alexandria – Egypt
Churchill and Roosevelt meet to prepare their negotiations with Stalin. Of cause they talk first about the military situation.
The activity of the German Navy in the Atlantic is still low. The convoys of merchant ships pass the ocean without casualties.
The Battle over Germany is still ongoing. British night raiders attack German cities. After Hamburg the German defence improved slowly. Although the damage of German cities is high there is no visible effect on the German combat strength. However the RAF calculated that several million man hours of work capacity have been destroyed already. The disappearance of the German submarines is a result of the British raids.
The success of the USAAF is clouded by the high casualties. They have to wait until the long range fighters are available before they will plan new raids into the heart of Germany.
On Sicily the Allies have upper hand now. However, most Germans could retreat. The invasion of the Italian mainland may change the situation.
The Roosevelt and Churchill discuss the situation in Russia.
Churchill: “I received a note from Uncle Joe. He asks for an immediate increase of weapons and adjures for the second front. His tone has changed. Obviously thinks at Kiev are not going the way he likes them to. Intelligence reports that the Russians are retreating and that several Russian armies are cut off.”
Roosevelt: “So you see our worries were without cause. The Soviets won’t reach Central Europe before us.”
Churchill: “I wonder how bad the situation really is. Some reports indicate a bigger disaster. Some papers even say that the mood is changing and that the population is very dissatisfied. If the Soviets accept another defeat we have to take into account that the Soviets might collapse.”
Roosevelt: “What do you mean?”
Churchill: “Might be a putsch, a civil war, or a separate peace … I do not know. I just want to say that there is an eventuality that the Russians leave war.”
Roosevelt: “Isn’t that a bit pessimistic? Last time you told me the Soviets are overrunning whole Europe!”
Churchill: “I just talk about eventualities! And I think we should play some mind games. If there is an eventuality that Russia collapses – what are we supposed to do?” He puffs his cigar. “Shall we try to avoid this and send more goods and equipment – and risk to loose that all – or shall we keep everything and plan the war without Russia?”
Roosevelt: “You’re nasty! We cannot leave our ally alone!
Churchill: “Alright! So let’s start with scenario 1 – help the Russians. Then we could send more weapons. This will affect our own plans, but alright! However, in a worst case scenario our deliveries would be used in a civil war or the Germans could get hold of them!”
Roosevelt: “That would be bad, really bad!”
Churchill: “And even if the Russian get them, can they use them. Do you know how much they already received? To me it seems to be a lousy business.”
Roosevelt: “So what do you propose?”
Churchill: “Propose? Why not propose Joe to send some well trained and well equipped divisions.”
Roosevelt: “Common! You know he would never accept that. He does not want to have western soldiers on Russian ground.”
Churchill: “I know! So this would be a good test to show how desperate the situation is. If he agrees we know he is in trouble. If he does not – everything is fine and we can go on like we used to.”
Roosevelt: “And if he agrees? Do you really want to send troops?”
Churchill: “Err, we have to be very careful. Of cause I do not intend to send soldiers into a lost battle without knowing how to get them out again or even how to supply them. But if the situation is right I could send two divisions from the Med and another three from India. If you send five too this would be a fine expedition force. Plus air force of cause. Having Spitfires and Typhoons at the Caucasus could be beneficial. And some B17, too. We could bomb Romania easily.”
Roosevelt: “But how do you want to bring them in. And how do you want to supply them? I do not like this plan. It is full of risks and it would stop all other plans regarding Italy and France.”
Churchill: “Wait a minute! Of cause a short route to Russia is precondition. Now that we control most of the Med and the Battle of the Atlantic is over we have enough transport capacity. And I see an option to send troops to Russia. You know that the Italians asked for peace. Now remember that the Italians occupied some islands in the eastern Med. I am talking especially about islands in the Aegean Sea. Rhodes is the biggest one and it has a small airfield, enough for fighters. Imagine this: we make an agreement with the Italians; they get good peace conditions and in return they give us these islands. Of cause we would have to fight the Germans; they still have the dominance in the air and have some paratroops there. But if we take these islands with the air field we could not only expand our dominance to the Aegean, we could also demonstrate our military strength and our will to the Turks. I am sure they will agree to support us if we send our divisions to Russia. This would be a perfect solution for them. They neither want the Russians nor the Germans to dominate the Black Sea. Even if they will not join the war they could support us by leasing out some airfields and naval bases. Then we could ship our boys to Russia – this is the shortest way by far – and supply them. And in case that the Russians break down we would have them there to influence the situation; and in a worst case they could retreat to Turkey. Turkey would be exactly the base we need to continue the war against Germany in case that Russia leaves.”
“Each time we meet you have a different story with a different paranoia but the end is common; cancel the operations against the Germans at France in favour of a Med campaign.”
Churchill looks annoyed: “Keep on joking! This is our best strategy. We can show Uncle Joe that we are not only willing to support him but also that we are willing to give our blood, too. We could fight the Germans there, we could control the situation, we could get Turkey on our side and we could finally liberate the Balkans. What are our other options? If Russia collapses when do you think that we will be able to invade Germany? They can pump millions of experienced soldiers into France. Their industry could produce in the east, where we cannot attack it, with the resources of Russia. No, I say let’s take the risk and send troops to Russia.”
Roosevelt: “I do not agree! Send Russia weapons like we did before. And built strong forces at England to invade the continent. Keep on bombing Germany.”
Churchill. “Your day raids are ineffective and costly. The night bombing is much more effective.”
The disputation goes on for a while. Then the two statesmen have to make a decision:
A1) Make peace with Italy in case that they hand the Aegean islands over.
A2) Insist on the unconditional surrender!
B1) Stop the aid for Russia. It is just a waste of resources! Keep on building a strong force at England.
B2) Stop air raids during day against Germany. Let the Americans attack during night like the RAF. This is not precise, but together they can wipe out the German towns.
B3) Send more weapons and goods to Stalin! So the Soviets will keep on fighting the Germans while the Anglo-Americans prepare the war in Western Europe.
B4) Propose them to send soldiers. If they accept try to get Turkey on your side.
C1) Make a new effort to make peace with the Germans. Now that they replaced the Nazi government the gate to peace is open. Increase the bomb raids to increase the willingness of the Germans to negotiate.
C2) Make a new attempt to find an agreement with Germany. Stop the bombing of targets in Germany for a while. This will show your good will. You need time to introduce the ‘Mustangs’ anyway.
C3) Unconditional surrender!
:no: :oops: :no:
A1, B4, C3
I like the idea of a Mediterrean adventure, so let's take Rhodes, get B17s to blitz Roumania and get some troops and aircraft to Russia. I would also put the RAF and USAF under a single command - the day forces light the fire - the RAF stoke them up. The Allies still have no cause for peace yet, unlike the Russians, so they must keep the Russians going and the pressure on the Germans.~:cheers:
heheheQuote:
The disappearance of the German submarines is a result of the British raids.
A1)Because. It's not like it matters much anyway. Germans will probably do most of the fighting in Italy, and they already launched a coup. Wait, are the island held by German garrisons? Then it definetly doesn't matter....
B4) Send the soldiers to Russia, or at least offer to. If Stalin refuses, keep the goods comming.
C1) We don't want to turn Europe into a pile of rubble. That will leave the field open to communists, with or without support from Moscow.
A:1) We should try to cut of Germany from her allies.
B:3) I wouldnt take the risk of sending troops to Russia.I think our troops there would cost more trouble then help.Also supplying them and putting them into Soviet command structure could turn out very hard.So keep the supplies floating.
C:1) I think its good to open negotiations.Thatway we could see what the mentality of new German Government is.
PS.As a side note.Becouse the Germans have now achieved a great victory in the Southern front.What is happening in the other fronts?What is the mentality in the Northern front?The Finnish army is pretty intact in the North.They stopped further attacking in the Soviet Union becouse We stopped the assault on Leningrad.Would it now be the time to cut of Murmansk and Leningrad for good?
This could be a possible scenario:Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/arc...selHonourType=
This is what is in Manstein's mind:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
It is impossible to occupy Moscov this year. It is also impossible to take Stalingrad or Leningrad. So the Germans have three realistic scenarios
1st, make peace with the Russians. To achieve this they must keep pressure high.
2nd; the war will go on. Them the Russians will have time until spring and will have full strengt again.
3rd; Russia collapses
So the strategic military goals are: keep the pressure high, defeat as many armies as possible and then get a good defensive position to overcome winter.
Right now there is a gap in the Russian defense near Kursk. So the Germans keep pushing there. The Russians will have to moove troops from other areas, esp. from the southern fronts. 8th Tank Army is already attacking Charkov. Once it falls the whole southern wing will have to retreat. Then it is time for a general invasion of the German Heeresgruppe Süd.
In parallel there should be operations in the north, just to keep pressure high there too and to reach a goog position for the next winter.
Keep in mind that all offensive operations have to be finished by end of October.
The result now is:
A: 1 1 1
B: 4 4 3
C: 3 1 1
Right?
So this is your bedtime reading - The London Gazette!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
An interesting little sideshow - makes me even keener for a little Mediterrian adventure, so come on chaps, get behind the Rhodes to victory camp.~:cheers:
WINDS OF CHANGE
August, 24th Kiev, Ukraine
SS troops capture the last blocks and overbear the last resistance of the 5th Guard Corps.
The railroad to Kiev and further to Poltawa starts running again.
August, 24th, Alexandria – Egypt
After endless discussions Roosevelt finally agrees. The Western Allies will change their strategy. The new strategy includes:
• Increasing the strategic air force command in GB and continuing the raids against Germany;
• Negotiating with Italy to release them from their alliance with Germany and to get the Aegean islands.
• Occupation of the Aegean Sea
• After this start negotiations with the Turks
• Start negotiations with Russia
• Build up a strong air force in the eastern Med
• Build up a strong supply fleet
• Build up an expedition corps for Russia
• Start negotiations with the Germans
Operations against Northern or Southern France are cancelled. Preparation of the Aegean operation will start after the successful landing at Italy. Eisenhower is decided to screen the options to transfer army divisions as well as air force squadrons to Russia.
August, 27th, Eastern Ukraine
The fighting goes on. German infantry corps narrow down the encircled Soviets. There is no more coordinated resistance.
North of Sumy the Soviet forces try to avoid being encircled by the German tank corps. The Germans do everything outflank their opponents and to bring about a decision. Luftwaffe is attacking the Soviet route columns. The Soviets throw their air force into the campaign. Although the Soviet fighters and attack planes suffer awful casualties they succeed in reducing the speed of the German tanks. Especially raids against the German supply units are very effective. Finally the 3rd Guard Tank Army, the 65th Army, the 13th Army and the 20th Tank Corps with more than 230,000 Soviet soldiers manage to reach the new line of defence near Kursk and join the main forces. However they lost most of their equipment.
Vatutin starts immediately to integrate these units into his organisation and defence. He refills the divisions. Then he splits the units and creates new armies with one third experienced soldiers and officers and two thirds freshmen.
Now he has more than 600,000 soldiers, 2,600 tanks and 5,500 guns to hold the fort. But he knows that his men are not only inexperienced. The arrival of the veteran units, which had to run away from the Germans and rumours of the defeat reduces the moral to a critical level.
The German 8th Tank Army increases the pressure on Charkow. Malinowski’s front prepares the evacuation.
August, 27th, Moscow – Russia
Stawka announces the end of the operations in the Ukraine. The Soviet summer operation was very successful. After inflicting high casualties on the Germans the Red Army retreats according plan to the initial positions.
Demonstrations and strikes of angry workers at South Russia. They demand a change of the government and an end of war.
August, 28th, Kiev, Ukraine
A Soviet delegation composed of Foreign General Timoshenko, General Buganin and General Vasilevski arrives at Kiev. The town is badly damaged. The Soviets pass endless columns of Soviet POWs.
The German delegation composed of Foreign Minister Adenauer and Commander-in-Chief East General v. Manstein greets them at the city hall.
Adenauer: “Gentlemen, I am very happy that I can welcome you at Kiev. May I introduce General Manstein, you probably have heard of him.”
Buganin looks angry when he introduces the members of the Soviet delegation: “And this is General Vasilevski. He was the Commander of the Soviet troops during the Battle of Stalingrad.”
Adenauer: “Gentlemen, you asked for this meeting.”
Buganin: “Yes! General Secretary Joseph Stalin thinks that it may be time to end this war. Of cause this has nothing to do with the latest operations, which were not as successful as we wanted them to be. However, you all know very well that Russia is able to put away a defeat like that and to strike back even harder than before. We have proven this before and we are ready to do it again. But Stalin looked very carefully at the changes within the German government and so he thinks that there is a chance to end this war and to avoid more sacrifices on both sides. So he offers you peace if you agree to leave our country immediately.”
Adenauer: “General, let me insure you that my government wants to end the war as soon as possible, too. Let me also insure you that the new German government does not have the slightest intension to claim Russian territory. The German government does support the claims of our allies Romania and Finland. The German government also thinks that the Baltic States have to be independent again and that you have no claim on the former Polish territory. But if you are honest you will agree that all these territories never were Russian. So I think we will find an agreement on this topic.
But you must also keep in mind that Germany is also at war with the USA and England. So we must have solid guarantees that the Soviet Union will never support our enemies.
So we want to make you a proposal”
Adenauer gives Buganin a paper.
“We make cease fire at the front line of early July. Every side retreats its tank forces and its air forces three hundred m kilometres behind that line. In three steps the line of demarcation will be moved west. After six months our forces will retreat to the Dnjepr line, after 18 months they will retreat to a line near Odessa and finally after 36 months we and our allies will leave the country completely. All this time and afterwards all tank formations and air force units have to be three hundred kilometres behind the line. In parallel the Germans will release the Soviet POW’s.
In return the Soviet Union accepts the new western frontier. They also accept that all western neighbours are part of the German sphere of interest.
The Soviets will release all POW’s of Germany and its allies immediately.
The Soviets will stop any activities of partisans behind the German lines.
The Soviets will end the cooperation with the western allies. They will not give or accept any kind of cooperation.
The Soviets will deliver every year
8,000 tanks, 25,000 artillery (above 37mm), 20,000 mortars, 20,000 trucks, 2,500 fighters, 4,000 attack aircrafts, 2,000 bombers, 1,500 transport planes, 30 million tons of coal, 3,5 million tons of iron ore, 6 million tons of crude oil. The delivery ends after three years. It will also end as soon as the war between Germany and the Western countries is over.”
Buganin looks confused: “Why do you think we will send you resources and weapons. We haven’t lost the war – we didn’t even start the war.”
Adenauer: “Think about it. It is a very low price for your country and for peace. If this war goes on you have to invest much more and the end is uncertain. So now you have our proposal, what is your reply?”
Buganin: “I have to confer with Stalin.”
Adenauer: “Alright! Discuss our proposal. But we should try to come to an agreement soon, maybe before our troops reach Moscow.”
August, 29th, Copenhagen
Kanzler Ameluxen visits Denmark. He has a short meeting with King Christian X. and a longer discussion with Prime Minister Erik Scavenius.
Ameluxen apologises for the illegal occupation of Denmark. He says he wants to end it as soon as possible. He offers adequate compensation for the damage caused by Germany. He asks the Danish to lease the airfield of Arlborg to Germany for the rest of the war. He also asks that the Danish will allow the German navy to pass Danish sovereign territory.
Decisions:
How will Stalin react to the German peace proposal?
A1) He will stop the negotiations.
A2) He will go on negotiating to get better conditions, esp. to get the Germans out more quick and to deliver less. But this could mean that the Germans will have another military success and that the riots expand.
A3) Accept! Make peace before the situation gets out of control.
How will the Danish government answer the German proposal:
B1) Accept!
B2) Refuse to allow the Germans to use Danish bases or territory.
A2 - the offer seems resonable, but you never accept the first offer. The movement of troops seems OK, so I would accept that timetable while negociating the resource angle - maybe make it a rising deal, increasing to that level by year 3 - based on the arguement of more resources coming available as the Germans withdraw. we should negociate - but not for too long - we don't want the western Allies getting too suspicious.
To my mind the German offer is very fair - some might say too fair - where is the catch? This could leave the Russians in a position to restart the conflict in a few years and start on the Polish border. Ignoring the loss of resources - serious, but not disastarious - all the Soviets have lost is the baltic states. On the other hand, maybe the germans assume that the pressure of the loss and subsequent peace will be too much and stalin will be overthrown - time alone will tell.
As for the Danes, I assume they will jump at the opportunity.~:cheers:
Kurt, Germans are a fair and peaceloving people!
Germans must have peace. That is the goal of the whole operation. Manstein knows very good that he won a battle, maybe a big one, but that he will loose the war if the Russians keep on fighting. And the Russians do not have a lot to gain, too. Worse conditions would only result in a longer war. And every month counts.
The deliveries mean that the Soviets will loose 20% of their weapon production as well as 20 % of their resources. So in total 40%. Plus they loose the support of the West. So their military potential is cut by 50%.
On the other side Germany can use the material and weapons. The weapons can be given to Romania, Hungary and Bulgary. So they can equip their armies and airforces and protect the eastern flank and the Balkan as well.
The recources are needed in Germany. It will boost the German industry, especially the crude oil.
The Soviets also have to agree that these countries are German protectorates. And the Finish and the Romanians get back the land the Russians wanted to have (and prpably still want to have). So they have no choice, they must be allies of Germany to be save of Russian demands.
As for the Danes: Denmark is not very important for Germany. So they can give it up. And they cam show to the other countries how they can make an agreement with the Germans. And it is a signal to Washington and London.
I do not care for this treaty. It still leaves Russia to strong in the long run. I say break off all the western ssrs(baltics, Ukrain, Belorussia) and maybe cut back on the reparations, maybe. and make the time table slower. It would be best of the New States governments were pro-german I suppose, although nuetral buffer states would be good too.
A2
B2
I just did a really good long reply - but then lost it with an internet glitch - so I going to sulk for a bit now:furious3:
A:3) Accept. there will be another day to fight,if Necessary.
B:1) Accept.Its better to have Independancy then to be occupied.Maybe a real peace will accur.
This is a good thinking from the German Government.If the Eastern Front stops existing The Western Leaders have to re evaluete their plans seriously.:bow:
I think this maybe not the most anti-Soviet, but the best pro-Soviet proposal. A good offer, a chance for Stalin to keep his job.... Germany will be safe from the Soviets. It will have buffer states which will be pro German. In addition Germany will have all the resources it needs to fight the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
Germany cannot stand another year fighting the Soviets. If it demands cutting the SU into pieces the war will go on.
Like Franklin said: There has never been a good war and never a bad peace!
Why B2?
Here goes - take 2
The possible treaty is interesting in that it does open the prospect of Stalin useing the peace to rebuild the country and his military. This was certainly what he did in 1939, making a treaty with Hitler so he could rebuild the army officer class in his own image after the purges.
So perhaps the question is what are Stalin's intentions? - I would propose that his main interest is security - the west had invaded russia 3 time in 30 years - not that he would say no to adding to his empire, but I don't think it was his top priority. The only other factor would be the country's need for revenge - particuarly the people who had been in the occupied areas.
The other side of the coin is the reaction of the West. They can't contemplate invading mainland Europe and they don't have a reason to make peace. So it looks a war of attrition using air and sea power, backed by strategic adventures like the eastern Med.
So - hey Franconicus - this one could run and run!!:2thumbsup:
I agree that security is Stalin's first motivation. You also have to see that he must fear rebellions. He never trusted his generals or the other members of the party. If the war goes on like that, they may change demand his head. There is also a sensible balance between the peoples of the SU. You know that some rather would be independant, especialy in the souther area.
So his first objective has to be: keep the empire together and stay on top of it.
Second should be: get a good position to avoid further invasions.
Third: Increase the empire and spread communism.
Fourth: Revenge
I think the stronger the Red Army was and the closer victory was the more important were the objectives with the higher numbers. But after a big defeat his focus should have been number 1.
The West may not have a good reason to end war, but it also has no good reason to go on.
Germany is no more fascistic, if war ends it will convert into a democracy. Germany will not keep foreign territory. So what is this war about. A strong Germany will protect the smaller Central Europe states from communism.
What could the US win in this war? It could really become bloody. Germany has much more resources than in reality. It can focus on the West. It will transfer all of its armies and air fleets to fight the US and GB. It will take years before the Americans will be able to land at Normandy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Wait. What is the best pro-Soviet proposal? Mine or yours? If yours, I would argue that no, Germany is not safe from the Soviets at least in the medium to long run. How long will it take for the Soviets to be up and ready to fight again? Also this would not destroy the ussr, just take off the western edge. Course, it may provoke nationalist uprisings else where. Hmm, maybe offer to help put them down? Maybe. Can we have a map of what your propose?
Oh, that's supposed to be B1, not B2:help:
Sorry, I ment pro-German. Manstein wants to save Germany, not the world. That can be the job of the US :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
It is not the job of the Germans to change the Russian government. If they like communism - fine. If not - now they have a chance to change it.
Germans have to make sure that the communists are no threat to Germany and Europe. For the moment they are weakened. I guess it will take 20 years for them to rebuild the country. Propably all the countries between the USSR and Germany will try to ally with Germany, to protect themselves against Stalin. Germany will be a lot stronger than the USSR. Maybe we should discuss this with Manstein.
Of cause this depends on the rest of the war. If the US nukes Germany the gate is open for communism. :skull:
No map. Look at the map of 1919. Changes are: Austria belongs to Germany as well as parts of the CSR and Poland. CSR is seperated into two as well as Yugoslavia (Croatia + Serbia). The Baltic States are free but not completely independant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Hmmm. I don't know about your time table for the Sovs to threaten Europe again. Anyone know how quickly the Sovs recovered from WWII in our timeline, or at least were in a position to resume offensive operations with the goal of conquering Europe?
Um, what does CSR stand for? Czechoslovokia?
Czechoslovakain Republic, instead of CSSR (CS Socialistic R)
Do not think the USSR would be quite as strong as it actually was. See how many people lived in their western satelites. And how big their industries were. No, the USSR in our game will never be able to challenge Germany - at least as long as the US does not help.
August 31st, Teheran – Iran
On the way to the conference with Stalin Churchill and Roosevelt get some notes from their diplomats. The British ambassador in Ankara invited the Turkish Prime Minister to dinner. They discussed the political situation and the position of the Turks. The Turkish show little passion to get involved into the war. Although they do not like the German dominance they fear a Soviet dominance much more. The ambassador quotes the Prime Minister: ‘Let’s play a mind game and pretend we lease some bases to the Western Allies. Then I have some questions:
How would the Allies guarantee that the Axis does not attack our territory or our cities? Would they supply us with weapons?
After a war, would America and Britain protect us against any Soviet aggression?
How do you guarantee that there is enough supply coming to Turkey?
Would there be a financial compensation for the trade losses?
The ambassador promised to check these questions.
In his resume he states that Turkey currently sees no reason to join the war. They would be more open if they see that the allies are winning. A resolute action in the Aegean would surely impress the Turks.
There is another report from the American ambassador in Spain. His Italian colleague handed him a peace offer. Italy is willing to end all hostile activities at once. It is willing to change into a democracy. It is also willing to withdraw its armies from Greece and the Med islands. However, it is not willing to betray its former allies as long as they are not hostile. It will request the Germans to leave the country. It will not declare war at Germany nor allow that other nations use Italian ground to attack Germany. Italy demands that the Allies leave the Italian country and that they give back the Italian colonies Libya and Abyssinia.
September 1st, Copenhagen – Denmark
Germany and Denmark sign a peace treaty. Ameluxen says the German-Danish relations could be a model for whole Europe and be the beginning of a new peaceful age. Newspapers all over Europe bring this news.
September 1st, Stalingrad – Russia
Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill meet at Stalingrad. First of all Stalin shows the ruins of the towns, the graveyards. The western leaders have an opportunity to talk with survivors – defenders as well as civilians.
Then the conference begins.
Stalin: “Dear allies! I invited you to Stalingrad so that you become witness of the suffering and the heroic struggle of the Soviet people in this war. I appeal to you to increase your efforts and to join our fight finally.”
Roosevelt: “Well, Joseph, we recognize the contribution of the Soviet people in this war as well as the outstanding performance of the Red Army. But I also have to say that we are doing the best to support you. Do not forget the giant transfer, not only of weapons and military equipment but also of food.”
Stalin: “We know that and we thank you a lot. But the Soviet people wishes their allies would not only support them with goods and god wishes but would give their blood too just like the Russians do.”
Roosevelt: “That is not fair. You know very well that we fight the Germans at the Atlantic and that we bomb their towns. We expelled them from Africa and now we fight them in Italy. You hardly can say that we are not willing to give our blood.”
Stalin: “Common, you only fight them at the periphery, were it does neither hurt you nor the Germans. That is nothing but child’s play. And I know very well who defeated the Germans at Africa. Weren’t it soldiers of France, Australia, India and South Africa? You English know very good how to make others fight your wars. You are sitting on your island for four years now, waiting for us to bail you out. If you want to see war take a look around you. And if you want to join our fight attack the Germans were they are. Build a front at France. Like you promised many times before”
Churchill: “Well, it would not be advantageous to fight them at France, now. We have another proposal. We want to occupy the islands in the Aegean Sea and then send several divisions to southern Russia to support you. You see, we want to fight side by side.”
Stalin: “The Aegean Sea? Are you kidding? What kind of play is this? While we fight for our survival you only follow your own interests. And sending western soldiers to Russia? What a foolish idea! Do you want to support us the way you supported the French in 1940. Sending some tourist platoons to watch us fight and to leave us when the bullets come close? No, I said it before and I will say it again: If you are willing to fight then invade France; And do it now!”
Churchill: „It is not possible now. Do not forget that we are currently fighting in Italy.”
Stalin: “Excuses, nothing but excuses! I am tired of your alibis. I want to know right now and right here; are you willing to invade France this year with at least a million soldiers?”
Roosevelt: „Common, you that this unrealistic!”
Stalin: ”Yes or no!”
Roosevelt: “No, it is impossible!”
Stalin: “Alright! We are tired to fight this war alone. We suffered more than enough casualties. You are happy to watch the Germans and the Soviets bleed. If our allies are not willing to support us we have to see if we can find an agreement with the enemy.”
Roosevelt: “You cannot be earnest! You cannot even think of making peace with the Germans! Do you forget our agreements?”
Stalin: “Our agreements? Didn’t we agree to fight the Germans together? I am tired to fight alone. The discussion is finished. You better leave Russia now!”
September 1st, Kiev – Ukraine
The German and the Soviet delegations meet again.
Buganin: “Here is the answer to your proposal. Stalin is pleased to hear that you do not request territory of the Soviet Union. However, you are wrong if you think that the territories which are claimed by the Baltics, Finland, Poland and Romania are not Russian. They are and they will remain part of the SU.
Stalin also agrees with the concept to retreat the foreign troops. However, the schedule is wrong. The whole retreat has to be finished within 6 months.
Furthermore Stalin sees no reason why the Soviet people should pay. They are not blameable for the war. But to show our good will the Soviet Union abstains from any reparation claims.”
Adenauer: “General, I fear that Stalin misunderstood our proposal. His reply is not acceptable.”
He turns to Manstein: “Feldmarschall, I think we can save our breath. End this war your way!”
Buganin: “Wait a minute. Let’s take Stalin’s answer to start the discussion. I think we can find an agreement.”
Adenauer: “General, while we are talking soldiers are dying on both sides. We do not want to negotiate, we want to make peace. But to show you my good will here is another proposal; if you promise that all German prisoners, POWs and others, are back in Germany until November, then I will order to stop the assault of Leningrad at once and even open the railroad to Moscow. But this is the very last concession. Accept the peace offer now.”
Buganin: “I cannot make a promise without the approval of Stalin.”
Adenauer: “Then hurry, please. Let us end this senseless war!”
September 1st; Eastern Ukraine
German 8th Tank Army occupies Charkow.
The last resistance of the trapped Soviets east of Kiev break down. German infantry corps advance east.
German 6th Army and 1st Tank Army start an offensive operation at the entire front. At the same time German and Finish divisions start an operation to cut off Leningrad.
September 3rd, Kiev – Ukraine
The Soviet delegation arrives again.
Buganin: “Adenauer, why are your armies attacking while we talk about peace. We cannot accept this hostile attitude.”
Adenauer: “General Buganin, they attack because we still do not have an agreement. Sign the treaty and the hostility will stop at once.”
Buganin: “Stalin wants to end the bloodletting. He accepts your proposal.”
What will Churchill and Roosevelt do?
This is great news we have made peace with Soviets!:2thumbsup:
About the Western Allies.I think its about the time to enter the negotiations.If Germans are ready to leave from the Countries they have invaded,there is no need to continue the war.But i think we should require that Germany pays compensations to the countries it have invaded.
Western Allies - Wear down Germany by air and sea. Keep up the pressure in the Eastern Med. No need to build up troops for invasion. This also means that they can concentrate on smashing Japan first then concentrate on an attritional approach to war on Germany. In some ways Russia ducking out the war takes the pressure off the Western allies invading - they can wear down german industry and civilian morale with bombing and wait for a rejuvienated Russia to attack the germans. It may take years, but they can play the long game. Also - I can't see the germans giving up the countries they had invaded and paying reparations - even as a puppet, can they take the chance of a rejuvienated france not looking for revenge.
The one area of strategy I would change would be targeting of the bombing campaign. I would move to targeting energy - oil, electricity, gas instalations - this is what the Allies did in 1944 anyway. You can move the industries to the East, but if they have no power, no petrol then you slowly strangle them.~:cheers:
But if the German energy supplies.Come from Russia mostly after the peace treaty,to the Eastern German industry.How are you going to bomb.them.Also you realize that the Germans with their troops releasing from the Eastern front,where the majority of the wermacht have been will make a serious direct threat to Western allied forces.First it wont take long for Germans to throw the Allied troops out from Italy if they want.In matter of fact.If there will be a peace treaty between the allies and Italy.Allied troops must withdraw from Sicily.You have to remember that this is 1943 and the Aliied bombing operations have not been very succesfull lately.Now after peace with Russia Germans can concentrate all their airpower against the Western allies.
Alright... I've been keeping track of this Interactive History for a while.
Ok, obviously, bombing's not going to be very sucessful, the Westerners really should start a front in France, if only to make the Germans start diverting troops away from the Eastern Front.
Add the second front in France to a redoubled bombing campaign, and you should give enough time for the Soviets to counterattack in Russia.
~*~*~*~
For the Germans in the Eastern Front, my suggestion is to go on the offensive in all directions, including offensives by both Army Group Center and Army Group South at the same time.
~*~*~
For the Russians, I would just start making peace.
The bombing - especially during the day - wasn't that effective, but come 1944 with the arrival of the Mustang and a better strategy of targeting oil installations, it was most effective. My scenario is that, as you don't have to invade france, put all your efforts into the air war, use your resources into smashing Japan. With japan out of the picture, that releases enormous resources. I realise that peace with Russia releases aircraft to move to the Western Front - but that process was well underway by late 1943 anyway - but the western war machine, which still has more resources - especially with its control of the sea - will win any war of attrition in the air. This is accentuated by attacking the oil refineries - no petrol, no flying. This scenario does require bases in the Med to suppliment it, which is why there is important. italy/ Scily opens up Austria/ southern Germany while Rhodes opens up Roumania.~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
What will the allies do? For now, they will keep doing what Kurt wants, but I'm pretty srue that the populations of the Allies will start to wonder what is the point? Russia is out, Hitler is gone, and Germany isn't nearly as menacing as it was. And I would not be surprised to see the resources commited to the air war to increased considering that the pressure as been taken off Germans. The air war is about to get much harder. And 44 is an election year.
Hmmm... The Me 262 was delayed at least in part because Hitler insisted that it be part bomber. Also it was delayed because of resource shortages. Hitler is gone, and Russia's tribute solves the resource problems. I think we wil see lots of swallows in the skies by late 43. Early 44 at the latest. The air war will be MUCH harder for the allies. And how long will it take before Russia is on it's feet Franc? Ten years?
Ugh. No rare materials like tungsten and chrome? I guess the resource shortages will still delay it.Quote:
8,000 tanks, 25,000 artillery (above 37mm), 20,000 mortars, 20,000 trucks, 2,500 fighters, 4,000 attack aircrafts, 2,000 bombers, 1,500 transport planes, 30 million tons of coal, 3,5 million tons of iron ore, 6 million tons of crude oil.
Do not worry too much. They will never be as strong as they were in reality. They do not have their economically strong satelites. And they do not have German engineers to build them rockets and jets. And they have a very strong opponent in the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
I guess Stalin will have a hard time to explain why the Germans could invade Russia so easiliy.
That is part of the small print, as well as the rubber and the foot supply.:2thumbsup: I could not publish the complete document.Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
What do you all think about the Italian proposal. And the situation with Turkey?
Why does Turky matter? need permission to fly bombers thru their airspace?Quote:
What do you all think about the Italian proposal. And the situation with Turkey?
About Italy? hmmm. kind of pointless if the allies can't get at the germans thru them. What do others thinK?
Turkey: Would help a lot. If you have air bases there you can control the eastern med, bomb the Balkan States, esp. Romania and even invade control the gate to the Black Sea.
Italy: It was hard for the Allies to fight the way through to the north. The peninsula is not made for tank manoeuvres, it is ideal for denfense. However, the Allies could use their superiority at sea for flanking manoeuvres. I think the most important advantage of Italy is that you can reach Austrai and southern Germany from there. So having some bases for your heavies and your fighters there could boost the bombing campaign.
I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody started talking about Me 262s!! - Don't forget that the Allies had just as good a jet in the Meteor, which was shooting down V1s in 1944 - and if the Allies adopt my bomb the oil installations strategy how can the planes fly? Also my concept of a single force - USAF and RAF - would mean a more concerted, consistent strategy.
As for the Allies long term aims - we must remember why they started in the first place. For England it wasn't Hitler, it was because Poland was invaded. I just can't see the US and UK accepting a europe dominated by Germany - for example will the Germans evacuate all of France to allow free elections.... with a strong possibility of the Communists holding power? Since the war the US and the UK has had a broad military strategy of using technology - principally via the air - to smash the enemy's infrastructure and to use the army to pacify once the enemy is broken. So who is to say they will not start that in 1943?~:cheers:
Kurt, take a look at this:
http://www.usaaf.net/surveys/eto/index.htm
A joint command of RAF and USAAF? That sounds very unrealistic to me!
Regarding the Me262: In 1943 it began to become reality. In our scenario it was much stronger than in reality. Galland was a big supporter of this program. Germany is going to produce 1,000 jet per month from January 1944. Though there are still technical problems I think it is an impressing force.
I once read that the fuel for jets was never a proplem, because is was a kind of waste. Did not understand this, though.
The USAAF had a crisis in Automn 1943, when casualties were high. Wonder what will happen if Germany air defence is getting stronger. On the other side German subs disappeared and many long range bombers are released from their sea duty.
And how far is it from it's would be bases to targets? And when was it first deployed? Was it's deployment delayed? And can you hit targets in Poland(historically their sythetic oil was in Poland)? And how long will it rake to repair the oil fileds? How often will the raids come? And don't forget that the Germans aren't fighting the Russians, so they don't need oil to fight a land war, and any front likely to be opened by the allies for now won't need alot of oil. And what about all that Russian tribute oil?Quote:
I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody started talking about Me 262s!! - Don't forget that the Allies had just as good a jet in the Meteor, which was shooting down V1s in 1944 - and if the Allies adopt my bomb the oil installations strategy how can the planes fly? Also my concept of a single force - USAF and RAF - would mean a more concerted, consistent strategy.
And if the Germans can demonstrate to the population of the allies that they have no further issues with the west, the people of the allies will vote out hawks. About France, I find it hard to believe that the Allies wouldn't rush into France then, or at least the Free French. Hmmm. How much of France was rebuilt by the Germans after 1940? If it is more or less intact, then I think the problems of communism will be less.Quote:
For England it wasn't Hitler, it was because Poland was invaded. I just can't see the US and UK accepting a europe dominated by Germany - for example will the Germans evacuate all of France to allow free elections.... with a strong possibility of the Communists holding power?
I guess I should at least answer some of my questions:
The Meteor was first deployed on July 12 1944, first saw action against V1s on the 27th of that month. It had a range of 1,610 km, while the P-51 B and D had a range of about 2000 km.
Guys... The Meteor is no match for the Schwalbe. It is slower, less maneuverable and critically less well armed (the 4*30mm of the Schwalbe will rip any enemy to pieces), while it is bigger and stronger it will not give any advantage in a dogfight with teh Schwalbe, only against lesser planes or AA. This could in real history have been outweighted by better training, at least to the degree that numbers would win in late 45. But the Meteors flying in 44 were a few squadrons... We are talking some 40 planes in late 44. That is definately not going to be troublesome for the Germans, not in 43.
And yes, the jetfuel was perhaps not a problem per se. But only if the rest of the forces still recieved a minimum of fuel to be working. Jet fuel is what is left after the high octane fuel is made. A jet in fact, operates worse with high octane. It needs a fast burning (and thus uncontrolled burning) rather than a 'slowly' expanding cloud of fire that is advantageous in a piston engine, just like the fast burning black powder is worse in cannons than the very slow cordite (ever seen free cordite burn? It is unbelieveably slow to be a propellant). So the fuel for jets currently shouldn't be a problem, at least not as long as Hungary, Rumania and Silesia produces fuel.
Besides while the Komet was never very successful it could very much have been so. Training... That was what lacked. A proper pilot with the ten 30mm upwardsfiring cannons could easily take out a bomber and then land again with little risk to himself.
The He162 would also become a menace. Cheap and fast it could be churned out in huge numbers. But I guess it's attractiveness wouldn't be so great currently.
And friends... This point is hugely important:
Hitler wanted the V1 and V2 over the quite advanced AA missiles and guided bombs. While the latter did affect the Allies, it was never used more than to just cause a nuisance. The former however, much closer to the V2 got stripped down and basically halted. It could have ben finished in early 1944. And against massive formations of Allied heavy bombers it would have been absolutely devastating. Imagine the entire 'road' from England to Germany lined with batteries of cheap missiles. I'm sorry, but the bombers would have been depleted after a handful of operations. Add in the jets and it would be all over for the bombers.
Terrorboming is not an option now!!!
Having read Speers memoires I can only see a single option left for the Allies.
Special bombing!
Yeah, sure the dambusting didn't achieve anything that lasted, but then again it wasn't attempted again when the Germans had rebuilt. Had that been done Speer argues that German would be out for the count for months.
Again he was scared shitless when he heard Göring claim his 'victory' over the Allies when they bombed Schweinfurt and Regensburg. Both times... The ballbearing factories were devastated and it was only because there were stocks around that he managed to keep the armed forces going while he had his techs change as much as possible to glidebearings. But even with glidebearings he declares that another round of bombings would have ended the German warmachine in a few months (the lesser factories could keep it going for a while).
Both airforces gun for special structure and areas. No more flat terrorbombing. It is working too slow and will end up getting the German ire up as well as give them time to strengthen her defences in the air.
Go for dams, ballbearings, chemical factories and fuel in that order. Other nice targets would be electrical plants, large bridges and hubs of trainyards.
Initially the large bomberfleets could target all but the dams, but in time more specialized forces would be needed for that. So transfer the current attacks while the specialists can be trained for their areas of responseability.
A few points that I find odd...
Russian POWs returned home at once. Why not make it a clause to keep them while the war in the West was going on? After all, we are talking about 6 million compared to the about 400,000 Germans in Russian captivity. In 43 the became absolutely vital to the German industry as the male population was in the armed forces. Of course without the Nazi ideology German women could be allowed into the market, but it would still be understaffed without Russian POWs working farms, factories and such. Keep them and wow to feed and clothe them properly, and return them as once as the war in the West is over.
Strategic resources.
Germany was terribly low on, Molybdenum (sp?), Nickel, Tungsten and a whole range of chemicals. In late 44 even her gunpowder for rifles was filled with no less than 25% of finegrained sand! That was the extent of her lack of chemicals. She could have waged war for half a year more in 45 (after her surrender) had she halted her enemies early that year.
Right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
No. The Germans have to be released at once. The Russians are released step by step. You need them as workers and as hostages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Ah, I took it to be a full release on both accounts... Well in this case it is fair enough.
This of topic but Congrats Franc for promotion to Senior Member!:2thumbsup:
You are right. I haven't noticed so far. How did it come? (Maybe because I liberated Denmark :idea2: )
OFFICER’S HONOR (2)
September 8th, East of Kursk, Russia
Manstein visits the divisions at the Kursk front to see how the ceasefire works. At the evening he has dinner with Hausser and Dietrich. Soon the three generals were on a trip down memory lane.
Hausser: “Manstein, isn’t it hard to believe what happened during the last weeks? Recently the Soviets were getting stronger and stronger and this war seemed to be never ending.”
Dietrich: “The 2nd Battle of Kiev is one of the most brilliant military in history, I am sure. I still do not understand the whole thing completely. Manstein, you excelled yourself.”
Manstein: “Gentlemen, it is not as impressive as it may look like. Just an objective analysis of the situation, a plan based on fundamental concepts and some excellent leaders. Yes, Gentlemen, it is thanks to you.”
Hausser: “You are overmodest! Could you explain to us what really happened?”
Manstein: “It all started with an analysis at the eve of ‘Zitadelle’. The Soviets were stronger in numbers, especially in soldiers and guns; ATGs as well as heavy artillery. They had more tanks and planes too. However, due to our better equipment and to our better crews I believed that we could keep up. Especially our tanks were much better. So the first conclusion was that we should try to fight the Soviets at open ground. There their guns would not be as effective while the quality of our tanks would show to advantage. The most stupid thing would have been to attack them at their fortified positions.”
Hausser: “I had an opportunity to see the Soviet field fortifications last week. Hard nut to crack!”
Dietrich. “So you think that we would have lost ‘Zitadelle’?”
Manstein: “Probably not! But after the battle our tank force would have been ruined while the Russians would have been able to replace their casualties. No, we needed a complete victory at low cost.”
Dietrich: “So it was good that ‘Zitadelle’ was cancelled.”
Manstein: “At least I was not unhappy! I started my preparations immediately. To lure the Soviets on open ground I started to retreat the troops. I was sure they would attack. I was also sure they would start with their three strongest fronts. And I wanted to trap them. A good plan was easily found. I had to build a trap for the Russians; if you take a look at the map you see that the Ukraine is a big natural trap itself. I was sure that the Soviets would not try to cross the Desna. They would advance east along the river. They would either try to attack Kiev – which is nice bait – or turn south to cut off our southern wing.
Our troops were the 4th Tank Army, Kempf and the 9th Army as well as the 2nd Army. The plan was based on the old principles of Clausewitz and Moltke – march separately; strike combined! – as well as Guderian’s principles – do not use tanks against strong positions; use them behind the lines and keep them moving.
I also had to find a role for the 2nd Army. You know that our infantry corps are not very mobile. But they have a reasonable strength in defence. So I decided to place the 2nd Army at Kiev, where they could defend the town and the river. The Soviets could run their heads against this brick wall. Then, when they lost momentum, when their flanks were long and the supply tight, then it would be time for the counter strike.”
Hausser: “So your plan was to lure them at a place where they could easily be attacked? Isn’t it a copy of the operations of the France campaign?”
Manstein: “You are right! It is similar. The first phase was to get every division at the right place. The 2nd Army had the toughest job. They had to retreat all the way to Kiev without the support of tanks or planes. I knew that only a very talented commander would be able to execute this operation. So I took Model, and he produced his masterpiece.”
Dietrich: “But wasn’t it careless to let the Soviets cross the Dnjepr?”
Manstein: “That was not part of the plan. I was surprised that the Soviets did not try to block the bridges at Tschenihiw or Tscherkassy. Or even occupy them. They only tried a lame attack at Tschernihiw, but proceeded to assault Kiev even when they had failed. After this I was sure that the battle was won. Konev managed to cross the River where our defence was weak, with two of the best Soviet armies. I did not want to send tank units from Tscherkassy, because I wanted to use everything for the counter strike. So Model had to build a task force with his last reserves to stop the Guard Armies. It was not pleasant to see the Soviets cut our connection to Kiev; but it the end it turned out to be very positive. The Soviet generals believed they were on the winning lane while our tanks were starting the counter attack.”
Hausser: “But they did not attack at the same time.”
Manstein: “No! It started with an operation at the northern flank, at Tschernihiw. There was already a battle going on. I ordered a tank corps to attack the Soviet army. This place was too important to loose. So the tank corps defeated the 7th Army, and secured Tschernihiw. Another goal was to lure more Soviet forces to the west. Actually the Soviets did send reinforcements, not only to the northern, but also to the southern flank. Then the attack from Tscherkassy was started. Two tank corps had been hidden there and I am glad that the Soviets did not find them. Or if they did, that they did not care about it. So your SS corps could advance deeply into the enemy’s positions while another tank corps attacked the Soviets at Kiev.”
Dietrich: “I was surprised how easy it was to break through. There was not much resistance. Hardest thing was to keep the Soviet planes at distance.”
Manstein: “The reaction of the Soviets was slow and strange. It took a long time for them to realize the threat. Then they ordered their cut off armies to assault Kiev. Although they knew that another tank corps was northwest of Kiev. Another strange thing was that they did not use their remaining two tank armies. They remained at the north while the complete southern front collapsed.”
Hausser: “We even managed to encircle four Soviet armies. But you let then escape later.”
Manstein: Yes, I did. The Soviets attacked with two guard armies. I knew you were able to defeat them, but at what cost? No, it was better to bypass them and keep moving. Motion is the best armour of the mobile divisions. And soon enough you were able to cut off all three fronts. Now, having lost two guard armies and being cut off the Soviets finally realized the danger and sent their tank armies to turn east. But it was too late. As I had foreseen, the Soviet tanks could not take on the German tanks.”
Hausser: “Yes, it was a complete victory, an outstanding one. But why didn’t we capitalize on it? Why did we make this agreement with the communists? Hadn’t we shown that we could beat them each and every time?”
Manstein: “Be realistic! Sure, you would have been able to advance further and to eliminate more Soviet armies. But sooner or later we would have had to stop, due to supply needs or bad weather. And then the Soviets would have been able to rebuild and refit their army during winter. And we had to start the whole thing again next spring. Do you think the Soviets would have been as careless again? And do not forget the Anglo Americans. They are getting stronger and stronger. No, we had to end war as soon as possible!”
Dietrich: “Yes, but under which conditions? Did we really have to give back every thing our soldiers fought and died for?”
Manstein: “It was the best we could get. Hitler’s plan to get colonies in the east was nonsense. What for? We ended the war in the east. We have a strong ring of allied nations between us and the Soviets. And what is more important, we can now concentrate on the war in the west.”
Dietrich: “Don’t you think the Russians will attack us as soon as they can?”
Manstein: “No. You trust them. Russia suffered terrible in this war. It will take a decade until they are back on their feet again. The deliveries will extend that period. And do not forget that it is the second time they betrayed their western allies. Britain and America will never trust them again. They will do everything to take revenge.
This peace has a lot of benefit. Our allies get the territories they wanted. They can never change sides because the Russians would take the land away. So we can rely on them, regardless which government they have. And it is also a strong signal to the other nations: Germany does not want to keep occupied territory.
Our peace will influence all of our allies as well as the neutral countries. Look at Turkey. They fear Russia and the hate the English. Both countries stole a lot of provinces. The Turks do not want to have a strong Russia and they also do not like the strong engagement of the English at Iraq, Syria and the other Near East countries. So their only option is to cooperate with Germany. Germany did never do any harm to the Turks.”
Hausser: “You think that the Turks will step in the war? We could send some armies and attack India.”
Manstein: “For heavens sake, no! They help us more if they stay neutral. Now that we demonstrated our military strength the Turks will support us. They will be our bridge to the world. Some US companies already contacted us to supply us with everything we want to have – via Turkey. The Turk is also a good base to start agitation against Iran, Iraq and India. Don’t you think those people are tired to support the English war? And finally a German friendly Turkey will force the British to keep an army just in case they enter war. All in all that is much better than a Turkish ally.”
Hausser: “What will be the next steps?”
Manstein: “We will offer peace to Churchill and Roosevelt. They do not have a reason for war anymore. But I know that you do not need a reason to keep on fighting. So we have to face the option that we must keep on fighting.
There will be free elections at Germany end of this year. After the end of war in the east there is little doubt that Ameluxen will win. The returning POW’s will do the rest. There will also be free elections in the Czech Republic, in Slovakia and in Croatia. Afterwards these countries will accept a peace offer and will join a trade agreement.”
Hausser: “Why do you think they agree? And why having elections at all?”
Manstein: “We need a partner with authority the western countries cannot deny. And we hardly can negotiate with a government that sits at London. And if there are elected governments they will agree to everything as long as they get freedom again. They have no choice. They all are too small to be independent, not even in an economic sense. And they will not ally with the Soviets. And history told them that they cannot rely on the English or French!”
Dietrich: “And then?”
Manstein: “If the British still do not agree on peace we will find an arrangement with a new Polish government. This will be harder of cause. But in the end they will be happy to end the German occupation too. Of cause we will insist on getting Danzig and the corridor, but we will find a compromise. And then the Polish will happily join our trade agreement. France, Belgium and the Netherlands are more difficult. We need them in case we have to fight longer. I think we will try with France first. Petain has nothing to gain if de Gaul returns as winner. He will ask the British if they accept the neutral status of France in case the Germans withdraw. If the reject – and I assume they will – Petain will support us. Maybe France will convert from an occupied country to an ally.”
Dietrich: “What about Italy?”
Manstein: “I know that the Italians negotiate with the Anglo American. If those accept that Italy can be neutral and unoccupied this would be excellent. Italy means nothing. The only danger is that the Americans use it as base for air raids. If we are lucky we will be able to build a ring of neutral nations around us. Then it will be hard for the Anglo Americans to attack us.”
Hausser: ”But if we have to fight we will fight!”
Manstein: “Sure, wishful thinking does not help. The agreement with the Russians increased our resources significantly. We will even offer them to retreat sooner if they give us more and better weapons and material. Our production will boost. Unfortunately we do not have good information about the western armament. There are some strange scenarios. Best case would be that we produce the same amount. Worst case could be that they produce maybe 1.5 to 1.7 times as much as we will. But that does not matter a lot. Sure, they produce where we cannot attack them but they have to carry it to Europe. This absorbs a lot of resources. And then, building ships and bombers is certainly more expansive than submarines and fighters. So I believe we can make it.”
Dietrich: “What are the operation plans?”
Manstein: “The Anglo Americans will not land at Europe besides Italy this year. So we have enough time to send armies from Russia to the west and refit them. Next spring our armies will be strong. Rommel discussed the option to lure the Allies to France and beat them in a battle, but I doubt that they will do us this favour. I do not believe they will come in 1944. So our first goal has to be our air defence. You know that Galland does everything he can to increase the potential of our fighter forces. Target is to produce 1,000 Me262 per month from January. Right now our Zerstörer squads are transferred to jet squads. This should be enough to sweep the sky over Germany. The Me262 fits also excellent to be a night fighter. In the meantime the Me110 can fill this gap. But there are other very promising developments like the He219 Uhu. An excellent night fighter with 615 km/h. They can keep up with their British counterparts. This, in combination with new radar equipment should stop the British raids.”
Hausser: “Alright! So we can repel their attacks. What if they are still not willing to end war?”
Manstein: “Unfortunately the Reichsmarine won’t be able to attack them. I know that there are some very promising U-Boot developments going on. The marine is working on a U-Boot that is very fast under water and that can keep there for a long time. The XXI makes 18 knots under water. This is faster than a British corvette. And the Allied sonar does not work at a velocity of more than 13 knots. The new subs will have a rapid reload able torpedo system. They will have snorkels. They will have the Nibelung sonar, to spot ships without periscope and they will have the Zaunkönig torpedo. And the navy is also working on a so called Walter-U-Boot, which has air independent propulsion. End of 1944 the British will see a new generation of submarines which will make their defence without effect.”
Dietrich: “But even a new successful U-Boot campaign will not bring them on their knees.”
Manstein: “That is right! But it will eat their resources. Of cause we will have air battles over France and England. But I do not think that attacking the British towns would be effective.”
Dietrich: “What about the V weapons. Himmler told me about rockets.”
Manstein: “They are nice, because there is no defence and you do not loose crews. But they are too inaccurate to attack industrial targets. Maybe it would be nice to have some thousands on stock in case of an invasion; we could fire them at Dover or another harbour. But I wonder if they are worth the cost.”
Dietrich: “So how can we attack them?”
Manstein: “If the war will go on, it will go on at the eastern Med. The Anglo Americans will surely try to attack us at Greece. We will increase the armies of Romania, Hungry and Bulgaria. They have to guard the frontier to Russia and send troops to the Balkans. The MiG 3 has a longer range than our planes. Together with the TU2S it could form a force to operate from Rhodes and Crete and attack the British convoys coming from the Suez. This will be a air war. I know that the Luftwaffe has some new developments that will help. They will use it in the Med and in the Biscay. The Me410 is a long range fighter that can compete with the Beaufighter and the Mosquito. The new Ju188 bomber and the FW200 can be used too. The navy developed a glide bomb that seems to be very effective in attacking traders or small military ships. And there is the Arado 234 Blitz. It has a top speed of 737 km/h. This is enough to attack every target we want. I think we will be able to produce better weapons than the Anglo Americans in a suitable number.”
Hausser: “Alright! What will be our job?”
Manstein: You, Hausser, stay near Kiev with your SS Corps. The ‘Leibstandarde’ will be send to France, but you get the ‘Wiking’ instead. You have to have an eye on the Russians and on our allies. You will work with General Weiss, the commander of the Ukraine. And you have to ensure that the treatment of the Russian population will be fair. War is over and we cannot afford to start a new one. You, Dietrich, will go with you division to France. Before that you will give your tanks to the other SS divisions. Your division will be renamed into ‘Friedrich der Große’. You get new equipment in France. You will meet too new SS divisions there and form a new SS corps. You will be the commander. A third SS corps will be formed in Austria this summer. If needed it will be deployed in Italy.”
This discussion lasts until late in the evening. When it is over Dietrich asks Manstein to take a walk along the front. Manstein agrees. Dietrich picks his submachine gun.
Manstein: “Do you want to start a new invasion this evening?”
Dietrich: “I am just careful. There are still dispersed Soviet soldiers and partisans.”
Mastein: “You are right. I will be under your protection.”
They walk quietly through the night. After a while Dietrich starts to talk: “After all it was very lucky that Hitler died. Now I see that we were faced with ruin. ‘Zitadelle’ would have been one step too far!”
Manstein: “You are right. Germany would have been lost. And I am sure that the allies would not have shown any mercy.”
Dietrich: “Do you know that I spend the last night before Hitler’s dead with Himmler. He told me about his plans. He wanted to press Hitler for negotiations with the Western Allies. He thought that the Anglo Americans would rather negotiate with him than with Hitler. I do not think that he planned to kill Hitler.”
Manstein: “Really?”
Dietrich: “I also met some of the soldiers of the probation companies at Kiev. I talked with them. I do not think that the story of the Himmler putsch is true.”
Manstein: “What do you think?”
Dietrich: “I think someone murdered Hitler to rescue Germany.”
Manstein: “And would you agree with that person?”
Dietrich: “I would say that this person did what he had to do. That he acted as an officer.”
Manstein: “I see. I am glad that we have the same opinion.”
Dietrich: “Yes, we do. I would give my life to rescue Germany – without hesitation.”
Manstein: “So would I!”
Dierich: “I know. By the way, do you know that the ‘Leibstandarde was originally the bodyguard of Adolf Hitler?”
Manstein: “Yes, of cause.”
Dietrich: “I am the commander from the very beginning. I swore to protect his life.”
Manstein: “There was little you could do, right?”
Dietrich: “Right! And to be honest, I am glad I could not do anything. But that does not change things. Although I could not protect him my oath ties me to Hitler.”
He takes his gun.
Manstein: “What is your intent?”
Dietrich: “I have to do what I have to do. I have to act as an officer, too.”
He raises the muzzle and fires.
THE END
Good, but. Why did you have to kill Manstein~:( ?
Oh, and how are Germanies allies going to get spare parts for their Russian aircraft after the tribute ends?
I believe Sepp Dietrich shot himself.Thanks Franconicus!This was amazing journey!:bow:
What? Really? Franc, clarify please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
I don't like the idea that the privates die while the general survives. And did you really think no one from the Nazi gang would realize what happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
This story has an open end. So you can either imagine yourself or pick up the baton :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
Heh... You ended your story just like I did, when the war in the east was over.:2thumbsup:
And nice ending!
Dietrich was not a very intelligent man, in fact is reputation was one of loyalty over ability. Draw what you will from that.
A stupid man often has less understanding of the complex Prussian military establishement, meaning he wouldn't understand the suicide for failure properly. But a stupid man can easily understand loyalty and the price of disloyalty. Added together he would likely have killed Manstein.
: Initially I thought - what a shame the story has ended, there was so much left to resolve. But when I thought about it we were begining to get to the point where all the decisions to be taken would be based upon sheer guesswork, whereas up to now we could use the experiences of the war and its general direction. With the war in the east resolved there are so many options that a clear path will always be difficult - for example the debate over the air war, the assumption was that churning out thousands of me 262s would swing the air war in the Germans favour, but that is based on the assumption that the Allies carry on doing what they did originally, whereas they would have altered tactics to adjust to the new circumstances and thrown the weight of their technical resources behind it.
So, on reflection, well done Franc for a good story - one question though, could we, as the Soviet high command, have done better and possibly won the battle of Kiev? My guess would have been not to race after the retreating germans, but to advance cautiously on a broad front - but I can't see Stalin letting us do that.~:cheers:
Look at what Manstein says... It seems clear that we had the opportunities to win when Russian. But like the historical Russians we tended to bumble ahead like a rhino. We constantly chose brute force over finesse.
I was tempted at takign the choice of taking the two towns on the flanks, but I think I was still in my 'Russian' mind, thinking that it was not the Russian way.
First of all, I am not smarter than you are; my only advantage was, that I knew both sides.
I think it was harder for the Soviets to do the offensive operation instead of Zitadelle. But even a minor defeat would have been a strategic victory.
Very often you chose a surprising option.
An problem of the Russians was that they had no clear view on their opponent (which forces, where, intentions, leader).
It was very interesting to observe how the strategy drifted. The original plan was to force the German tanks to a battle and then start the big operation (Kiev, Odessa). The attack of Kiev had only the target to get the Germans out of their shelters. Kiev was not a strategic goal in the beginning.
The Soviets advanced and the Germans did not fight. Now it would have been time to think about the German tank formations. Instead you focused more and more on Kiev. Stalin supported this, because he didn't understand the original plan.
You attacked Tschernihiw with only small forces. It would have been better to attack it with stronger formations or to block it (you did not want to cross the river anyway.)
The most critical desicion was to cross the Dnjepr although you had no clue where the German tank corps were and although you hadn't occupied Tschernihiw. An alternative would have been to attack both Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy. You would have forced the Germans into a material battle.
Most amazing thing was how you reacted when the masquarade fell and the Germans attacked the southern flank. You did not try to call the 5th Guards back (Tscherkassy would have been the target.) You did not even order your remaining tank armies to turn southeast. You just waited. The assault of Kiev was quite desperate. Taking a town of that size with two German corps cannot be done in a day. So you wasted your guard. It would even have been better to let them stay and die where they were.
After the two guards were gone the battle was decided. You refused to accept that, although it was quite obvious. It was still enough time to order every army to run as fast as possible to the east. A minor defeat would have been a strategic victory! While the German corps made a break and became ready for the final strike you thought they were finished.
But Kraxis is right, maybe that is exactly the way the Russians would have done this.
One comment regarding Stalin: He did almost nothing to influence the battle! In 1943, after Moscow and Stalingrad, he had learned to leave the job to the generals. But thinking what Stalin might like or not influenced your decitions.
Alright! This was my analysis. Now I am curious to hear your comments. What were the biggest historical errors in this story?
I believe the battle was lost when our strongest armies were trapped behind the river.I still dont understand how we could have taken the both tank armies of from the north.There was also a German tank corps,waiting to hit us from North.How could have we won the scenario when we lost all the individual battles.I lost my hope at the moment when Totenkopf slipped away When we tryed to destroy it with two armies and a tank army.All our efforts to pin down the german spearheads were failed.We couldnt use the tactics we used in zitadelle by pinning down the enemy and the flanking them.The only way to stop for even a little bit the German tank formations were to use our tank armies to halt them for even briefly,and that took away all our mobile reserves.About why we didnt evacuote the the positions on the other side of the river.What i read the German 48th tank corps was bhind us on the other side of the river.If we would have tryed to cross back the river we wouldnt have got anykind of chance of Survival.
How i see it there was not simply enough troops to support our attack.In a normal Soviet major assault the Soviets used atleast 3/1 ratio before they thought they could assault.
I agree with Kraxis that we walked into a trap becouse we didnt listen to our gut feeling.:bow:
I have also been wondering... Didn't we elect to strike with combined forces? And yet we ended up with our tanks out in front and the infantry and guns lagging behind seriously.
You did! You know that the Soviet armies all had a remarkable tank force, not only the tank armies. The choice was to chase the 2nd army with tanks only or to follow them with combined forces.
You ordered one tank army to repel the German counter strike near Tschernihiw and the second to support the crossing of the Dnjepr north of Kiev and the 3rd (the 5th Guard Tank) south of Kiev.
I think it was a big disatvantage for the Sovs that their tanks wre devided. Their normal armies had not enough tanks to stand a Germans tank corps. But they had too many tanks so that there were only three tank armies and each was weaker than on of the five German tank corps.
The German tank concentration gave them superority whereever they attacked and made the tanks more mobile.
P.S.: I want to thank you all for your input. Although I had expected to have more participants I am glad that there were four high skilled, constant players.Excellent discussions, not only on the military issues but also on the strategy and big politics.
I have to say that the whole thing was a lot of fun and really catched me for a couple of weeks.:2thumbsup:
The loss of the battle of Kiev I think was mainly due to us not knowing what was on the other side of the hill. The maps helped a bit, but often showed big gaps. Even at the end, I thought the 2nd SS looked isolated. Also, I became obssesed with getting over the Dnjepr as I assumed that the reason for the retreat was to establish a strong defensive line on the river line - hey, as MTW players, we all know about bridge battles in Kiev!! - I thought that getting over the river with some forces would undo the position. In fact the river was the bait of the trap - and it certainly worked.
As to historical errors - well I think errors is too strong a word - I would see them as points of contention. For me these would be that getting rid of Hitler and the resultant coup/ change of power was a little easy. I would of thought that the extent that the Nazi party were intertwined with the machinery of government that resistance would be longer and more determined. The other thing I was always concerned with was the speed of production and apparent trouble free intoduction of the Panthers, Tigers and Elephants. My memory of the battle of Kursk - the real life introduction of Panthers and Elephants - was that they - and the panthers in particular - were prone to breakdown.
So, once again Feanc, well done. I, and I am sure my fellow Soviet generals, found it very enjoyable. It has inspired me to start looking for a project, and I am currently looking at the Battle of Midway with the forum controling the Japanese - so watch this space!~:cheers:
Not so absurd. After Zitadelle the Germans tried to build a defense along the Dnjepr. But it broke down when the Soviets managed to cross the river.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
We have to speculate because nobody ever tried, unfortunately! I think the organisation of the NSDAP was very hierarchic; Germans tend to be hierarchic and the NS ideology increased that. It was a system of pure obedience. And Hitler, like all despots, did not allow another strong personality beside him. His official political heir was Goering!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
So my thoughts were that if you take the head away and replace it by another all the Nazis would do what they used to do: obey! Of cause you had to replace Goering and Himmler. Himmler was really dangerous. To me he was the only person who could start a rebellion. So it was the easiest thing to give him the blame and kill him. And then erase the organisation from within.
You are right. But on the other side, the Germans had several weeks to fix the problems and they were closer to their base at Kiev. On the other hand - even the Panthers and Elephants at Kursk had increadible scores. If my sources are true:Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
Tank Destroyer Dep.653 & 654 had 90 Elefants and destroyed more than 502 enemy tanks, 20 ATG and 100 guns.
Heavy Tank Det.503 – 45 Tiger - destroyed 385 tanks, 4 assault tanks and 265 ATGs between 5. July 1943 and 17. August 1943
Mine were not so successful :no:
Great news! Good luck! :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
One advice: use the org to collect information you need. They gave some really good links. In the end I knew the names of almost every Soviet tank driver.
Yeah I was a bit puzzled about the tanknumbers of the Germans, especially the Tigers and Panthers (100 and 200 respectively at Kursk). But I assumed the long retreat went some distance to fix the fatal flaming flaw of the Panthers.
Good luck KK. Read a book on the subject, get a view on what could have been different (such as the searchplane from Tone actually getting in the air in time or another ship's plane taking over). Those are in fact more important that the specific facts as they aer readily available.
Listen to the posters, often they have great ideas you can implement later in the story.
Btw, I will unstick this thread now.
Kurt, I thought about your plan and although I my home is the highland I must say Midway sounds very promising. - But difficult. I think yiou have to deal with several problems:
1) The Japanese did not know that the Americans were waiting for them; that was prob. the main reason for the defeat. However, if we play the Japs we certainly know tha US is there and we know pretty well their stregth.
2) In this kind of combined air / sea battle many things happen by chance. A recon plane spots the enemy or not, a dive bomber manages to get through the sreen and hits the carrier while five other planes miss the ship, the bombers arrive when the interceptores just started; little things beyond our decition that will decide the game. So how will you manage this without maniplating the result? Throw a dice? Or do you have a big simulator like the one I used at Kiev?
3) For these kind of naval battles you certainly need excellent maps to describe where the units are, whre the planes are, etc.
Other intersting naval battles: Tsushima, PQ17, Operation Paukenschlag ...
Good luck!! I am looking forward to read your story!!
Franc - you hit the nail on the head - the Japanese were not aware of the strength of the US and the extent that their code has been compromised. That is why I intend to control the US and the posters the Japanese. I also intend to alter the scenario with a view to redressing the balance.
I have long been interested in the sea/air war in the Pacific and have read many things on this and the other battles in the Pacific. I have also gamed them with board games and PC games. Sadly there is not a curent game I could use - my previous PC game was on the Commodore 64 over 20 years ago!! - but 1 is in the pipeline so I am pleased with that.
So I will prepare, and when ready, let you all know in the time honoured way.~:cheers:
Kraxis,
One proposal: You opened a new genre with your alternates; now we have always several going on. Wouldn't it be great to have a seperate sub directory for those.
I have been thinking the same for a few days now. I will have to take a talk with the bosses.
Yes, ask the Iluminati :bow: