In Indonesia they rent a crowd... t-shirt with slogans mass produced, banners, posters... the guys get little more then a couple of dollars and a free lunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjakihata
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In Indonesia they rent a crowd... t-shirt with slogans mass produced, banners, posters... the guys get little more then a couple of dollars and a free lunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjakihata
It may not be 'official' but we have seen lots of senior representatives of the major religions over here (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, etc, etc, blah, blah) wringing their hands over the 'respect' and 'rights' due to religions. One should not criticize religion is the message that I am picking up from all of them. Sanctimonious tripe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I'm British, and if I want to poke fun at religion, then I'll bloody well do so. These Danish cartoons were making a satirical point: Mohammed was a prophet of peace, yet many of his present followers condone mass-murder and genocide, with throat-cutting being a credible religious policy. They are sick, and their so-called prophet did not preach this message as far as I can tell. If we can't criticize religion through humour and satirical mockery, then when can we do so? Should it be strictly verboten, censored, off-limits? I don't think so.
Thats very debatable and a big problem with Islam. It is too easliy seen the other way both by Muslims and others.Quote:
Mohammed was a prophet of peace
Yeah, I think EU is the way to go. We`re also demanding money for the damage(burnt down, that is) they did to our embassy, though that is of course only for the sake of principle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
Not sure what Denmark is doing with this.
I thought that the Koran also states "if you can not convert by the word, convert by the sword". For a peaceful prophet there was one hell of a lot of warfare going on in his name when he surfaced.
Not that Islam is unique. Christ apparently was there for peace, but still we got to the stage of killing people so they'd not sin - making murder and indeed genocide an act of kindness. :wall:
~smoking:
Interesting editorial from some guy over at Kos who is living in the mid-east:
Quote:
The most recent Hajj occurred during the first half of January 2006, precisely when the "outrage" over the Danish cartoons began in earnest. There were a number of stampedes, called "tragedies" in the press, during the Hajj which killed several hundred pilgrims. I say "tragedies" in quotation marks because there have been similar "tragedies" during the Hajj and each time, the Saudi government promises to improve security and facilitation of movement to avoid these. Over 251 pilgrims were killed during the 2004 Hajj alone in the same area as the one that killed 350 pilgrims in 2006. These were not unavoidable accidents, they were the results of poor planning by the Saudi government.
And while the deaths of these pilgrims was a mere blip on the traditional western media's radar, it was a huge story in the Muslim world. Most of the pilgrims who were killed came from poorer countries such as Pakistan, where the Hajj is a very big story. Even the most objective news stories were suddenly casting Saudi Arabia in a very bad light and they decided to do something about it.
Their plan was to go on a major offensive against the Danish cartoons. The 350 pilgrims were killed on January 12 and soon after, Saudi newspapers (which are all controlled by the state) began running up to 4 articles per day condemning the Danish cartoons. The Saudi government asked for a formal apology from Denmark. When that was not forthcoming, they began calling for world-wide protests. After two weeks of this, the Libyans decided to close their embassy in Denmark. Then there was an attack on the Danish embassy in Indonesia. And that was followed by attacks on the embassies in Syria and then Lebanon.
Many European papers, including the right-wing German Springer media group, fanned the flames by reprinting the cartoons. And now you have the situation we are in today, with lots of video footage of angry crowds and the storming of embassies and calls for boycotts of Danish and European products.
Saudi Arabia's influence on the Sunni Muslim world is incalculable. The sermons from high-ranking Muslim clerics are read and studied by Muslims around the world, who in turn give sermons to their local congregations. While the Saudis do not have direct control of the world's Sunni flocks, their influence is similar somewhat to the Pope's pronouncements and the sermons that Catholic priests give to their flocks the following Sundays. Saudi Arabia also finances a number of Muslim "study centers", where all the literature and material is provided by the Saudi government, filled with hatred for Jews and other extremely racist material. For them to promote an idea based on religion, including "outrage" at some cartoons published months earlier, is standard operating procedure.
I'm being generous, all 'Religionists' claim this. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
To be loving, peaceful, and the ONE TRUTH!
Now heres a cartoon that says it all
http://www.filibustercartoons.com/comics/20060204.gif
HAHA Jordan editors arrested for reprinting the cartoon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4680948.stm
Mr Momani's arrest came earlier on Saturday, a day after Jordanian King Abdullah condemned the cartoons as an unnecessary abuse of freedom of speech.
This sounds like the really old people who write into the local papers who say crap like "I didn't fight in WWII for the rights of America so people could use freedom of speech to criticize the government"
Oh the irony of abusing free speech. I'm sure the alternative to free speech would be sooooo much better, especially for the King.
The Muhammed Pictures controversy is also followed by Norwegian newspapers and the torching of the Norwegian embassy seems to have made most Norwegians a bit angry.
As for the Middleeastern governments this is a perfect "ventilation" to stem internal anger at the government away from. The good old "Use an external threat to suppress any internal troubles against the regime" trick.
I believe the London police have something to answer for as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
It is becoming clear that some heads should roll in London. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guardian
*tea spat all over my keyboard....sends bill to Adrian*Quote:
It is becoming clear that some heads should roll in London
You naughty man you. :laugh4:
Oh lollipop London is where it's at :laugh4:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....gfCtFdL3oyXQ--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....zss7gin41Q0g--
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....365134527.jpg?
They sure react in a most passionate way, how exotic :laugh4:
Murder, death, slaughter, behead, cut, stab, teh rage!
All praise the multicult, but hey, shoarma tastes good.
I bet if you fed them some chocolate and gave em' nap, they might no be so grouchy. These guys are acting like little kids, I think the UK should enforce a law that makes these guys take a 5 minute time out in the corner to think about what they've done.
Maybe if we just fed them a 9mm milimeter between the eyes it would have better results, but I doubt you would hit anything. But alas wishfull thinking, the beardwhisperers will probably pump a few extra millions and tell those backward goats it are really their social conditions that are to blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakizashi
awwwww, he wants to behead us, how adorable!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
I didn't know where to jump in on this thread so this seemed as good a post as any.
Standing up for one's religion is not terrorism.
Face it, protests don't mean anything. They never accomplish anything. No one cares about protests. Instead of wasting time with a bunch of useless crap like protests, Muslims will take actions that actually get noticed and have their voices be heard loud, clear, and universally.
Muslims will not tolerate their holy figures being mocked. That is to be commended.
It was common knowledge that to mock Muslim holy figures is to incur the wrath of all Muslims who truly believe in what their Holy Book says. They do not take it lightly as most so-called Christians these days do. Hence the paper and cartoonist responsible for that filth should have fully seen this all coming.
I'm sure all real Muslims would have the good taste to never watch blasphemous trash like "Life of Brian". If they did have the misfortune to watch it, it would incur similar wrath in their hearts. And rightly so in my view.
Muslims should realise where they are. I don't care what they do in their own perverted part of the world but here we have something called civilisation. They are guests and should stfu when adults are talking, muslims will not tolerate anything that isn't muslim anyway. Muslims in Europe should lighten up and behave like real people instead of a rabid mob, maybe their are just too many shiny objects here which they can't deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Because generally speaking, Christians these days do not believe in the Bible with all of their hearts. And they usually somehow have the misconception that they are supposed to act like pansies and tolerate disgusting depictions of their holy figures. Which of course, they are not. Christians have allowed their hearts and minds to be beaten into submission by decades of biased media indoctrination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Muslims on the other hands, take their faith much more seriously, believe it with all of their hearts, and hence will defend it with ample vigor. They will not backdown or have their spirits broken just because some idiotic newspapers tell them to en masse.
I applaud the Muslims for this conviction.
Congrats, you have managed to write a post that is deeply offensive to Muslims and Christians all at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
My dear boy, I don't for the love of me understand what you are talking about. There are millions of Muslims in Europe who all go about their daily business without shouting, demonstrating, siging petitions or calling for anyone's execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Lol.
Bigoted Religionistas always stick together on this kind of issue (before they go back to killing each other). They think they have a right to be beyond criticism and mockery. Think again sonny. :2thumbsup:
If Muslims were not instigated into behaving as a rabid mob, then they would not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's pretty simple: mess with them, and they mess with you back.
Can't really blame them for that in my view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Over satirical cartoons?!! Get Real.
They were published something like five months ago, and now suddenly this ridiculous hysteria and violence. This situation has been engineered by certain muslims for their own twisted reasons, and the Danes have little to do with it.
The age of them does not matter; they are just as digusting regardless of their age. Similar things have happened in New York and other places in the USA when some foolish men in the USA thought they could get it away with posting derogatory 'art' of the Prophet. This reaction from Muslims is nothing new, and it will happen time and time again any time something of this nature occurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
Obviously they are much more than "satirical cartoons". Rather, they are a sick violation of something deeply sacred.
If Muslims were not instigated into behaving as a rabid mob, then they would not.
It's pretty simple: mess with them, and they mess with you back.
Can't really blame them for that in my view.
Don't mess with them, and they will mess with you anyway, we simply cannot meet their demands.
My dear boy, I don't for the love of me understand what you are talking about. There are millions of Muslims in Europe who all go about their daily business without shouting, demonstrating, siging petitions or calling for anyone's execution.
Still early, probably sleeping.
While I cannot agree with the typcasting of all muslims as raging fanatics, I can understand some of the points raised by Navaros, that those muslims in question are acting in defense of their own religion. But does this defense require violent behaviour and attacks against neutral parties? Are they not just as bad as those that published these images when they will burn european national flags, destroy a consulate building and run about toting guns with little excuse? Denmark, a country that has hardly offended anyone, is hardly part of the bush/blair "empire". It was Denmark's free press that published this, not the Danes and not their government. The press is not the voice of the government. Unlike islamic states (and many non islamic ones for that matter), Denmark has a real democracy with a press that is free to comment on, and criticize almost anything, it is not bound by religion or government control. Have these muslims considered, that when they burn the national flag of the majority of Danes that did not support or endorse this publication in any way, that they are targeting an entire people for the actions of a tiny minority?
Obviously not, but as usual the fanatical zealots that endorse suicide bombers, "beheadings" and the burnings of flags and effigies, are whipping up the greater majority of the ignorant masses into a fury. Those involved understand nothing about the west whatosever apart from what their media and these manipulative clerics want them to know. The worst.
Those that are living in western european countries as asylum seekers or immigrants and engage in such actions as vandalism, incitement of hatred etc are even worse in my opinion. Such individuals have absolutely no respect for the country that has taken them in, they are there as abusers and nothing more.
Those protesting in london with placards such as "Behead the one who insults the prophet" and "Free speech go to hell" need to ask themselves the question: "Do I belong in a civilised western european democracy?"
hmmm,
Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim
outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
Now are we just that civil are or they nuts? Yes, we and they.
Oh wait, fresh from the press. Priest in Turkey gets shot to death. No, well you get it.
Wow, time to send some out huh? Seriously, If I was one of those english policemen I would consider beating the living hell out of the extremists... They probably were tempted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Best quote yet:
"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," said Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra.
Well - I guess a lot (probably the vast majority) of muslims neither show outrage now, nor did they when the other things happened that you listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
They probably aren't very happy about the cartoons and a lot of them probably arent't very happy about murder in the name of islam either - I guess most of them (like most Westerners) are just trying to live their lives without making ruckus on the streets.
A personal question, Fragony - as you mention from time to time that you sometimes participate in "public outrage" against immigrants - how often do you go on the street and join protests against right-wingers, e.g. those who hunt and beat up innocent immigrants? Have you ever been outraged about such incidents, or do you consider the beating of immigrants to be an "understandable reaction"?
Enter the apologist (I've been wanting to use that word). The man who tries to tiptoe around the issue and intimately makes his convictions clear when it says: "it's not their fault". Just keep sending those checks to CAIR and keep the faith brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Been in a fight from time to time with them but I never activily looked for them if that is what you mean, but I am not the kind of guy that turns the other cheek. Just a matter of time before things will get more sinister though, and I will be there when it does. About rightwingers attacking immigrants, I cannot think of such an incident in the past 10 years, I heard that it does happen from time to time in Germany though. When such a thing happens I wouldn't aprove it but I stopped caring really, so I pull the 'understandable reaction' card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Am I going to be offensive if I bluntly state Fragony does a really good job sounding like a full-blown racist ?
I wouldn't say he seems like a racist, just someone against large scale immigration...
There was a time when Christians did believe in the Bible with all their hearts. During this time, we had wonderful things called crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, various holy wars, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
There were a few posts early in this thread about Islam growing up. It doesn't have to mean Muslims renouncing the tenets of their religion, it just means accepting that not everyone will or must believe as they do.
C'est ca. Psycholigists have always known that groups that differ heavily on something bring friction, only the politicians have a hard time catching up. Islam and democracy will never work, something people are slowly starting to realise, if not a bit late. As far as I am concerned (sorry muslim orgers) the Islam is nothing more then a violent sect that should have no place in the civilised world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
But@watchman, you can call me suzie if you like.
You're kidding right? You crack me up. I think most Europeans would definitely disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Of course, I do respect your right to hold your opinions, but I don't respect them. Muslims will never respect our right to our opinions in our countries without issuing their fatwas and threatening violence. If they don't want to buy European cheese, then fair enough, but we don't have to deal with them either.
If you move to a Muslim country then you may find enough people who agree with you, you might feel better for it.
"I'm not racist, I have good reasons to dislike foreigners!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
:coffeenews:
Don't they all ?
Besides, I consider the way you persistently use the blatantly derogatory term "boomski's" (which is fairly obviously roughly equal to "nigger", "kaffir", "rag-head", "kook" and all the other classics) when referring to Muslims in general and Arabs in particular to be telling enough.
Which just goes to prove; boorishness is something nobody has any monopoly on.
That said, I agree with the point that the overall Muslim reaction is way over the top. Alas, since I also bother exterting the mental effort to try and understand *why* this is so (instead of settling for such vulgar, clearly intolerant and patently useless postulations as "Islam is nothing more then a violent sect that should have no place in the civilised world"), I can to an extent sympathize with them. To give you the short form, I think it's partly a way of venting more general uneasiness, anxiety and frustration over phenomenoms far beyond the control of the common man against a simple, easily identified, polarizing and remotely justified offense. 'Course, the same applies to the hardline anti-muslim reactions one can also witness in these very forums; I'm a big fan of considering all human beings equal in potential narrow-minded boorishness and misplaced outrage.
And partly it's opportunistic powers-that-be trying to shift the spotlight away from their own usually quite considerable shortcomings, and partly opportunistic extremists making use of the laden anxiety and a good window of opportunity to further their own causes. Which, again, applies equally here too.
Let the Lord, not the mob or man's sinful desire for violence judge the offenses my Brother in Christ. I choose to turn the other cheek when my faith is mocked although I may fight with words which really most of the time doesn't matter or work. What is happening here is not to be applauded and i do pray that you can see and understand why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
You're scary when you talk like that, Dave. :hide:
You have hit the nail squarely on the head TC.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I have also in the past been quick to point out to those who decry Islam as a religion of small-minded, violent, fanatics that they are making a broad generalization against the moderate majority based on the actions of the extremist minority.
This whole sad saga has made me doubt my previous position very seriously.
How's that? Is it better to riot, burn, and kill when offended by someone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Elementary, dear Watson. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least for the time being." People have a tendency to get quite... accommodating of atrocities that'd normally disgust them if they're committed in the process of pursuing a project - such as "opposing Them" - they can dig.
Put this way: how many "conservatives" would still argue for the use of interrogation-means-practically-amounting-to-torture in the War Against Terror, or alternatively deny anything of the sort ever happened ? Pretty much the exact same principle. And I'm sure our local Con friends here will have no trouble pointing out comparative Liberal cases.
It's all very "oh, the humanity!" really.
Or (and I'm just throwing this out there; if you like it you can keep it, if you don't like it you can send it right back) it could be that Christians actually pay attention to the teachings of Jesus, who said a lot of things (IIRC) along the lines of "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek."Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Now Nav, I understand that it is very presumptious for me (somebody whom Jesus would refer to as "a very naughty boy" at best) to question you (a self-proclaimed expert Christian moralist) on matters of Christian scripture and dogma, but I really have to ask:
Do you honestly think that Jesus would have been happy with his followers attacking people because a newspaper printed a picture of him wearing a funny hat?
Been in a fight from time to time with them but I never activily looked for them if that is what you mean
Is this the same person who wrote a few weeks ago that he was having a little get together to go and teach those nasty immigrants a lesson ?
hmmmmm...... whats that river in Egypt called ? de Nile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
pfffffffffffft, yeah DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh4:
Ole Jesus would have a heart attack if He saw just what has been done in His name over the millenia anyway.
Islam has far fever pacifistic pretensions (likely due to the historical contexts of its birth; Roman overlordship and a failed major uprising a few decades ago don't exactly encourage a terribly fierce attitude, unlike the decidedly more warlike and overlord-less seminomadic Arab culture of the comparable period), and thus a whole lot less schizophrenia over the use of violence. The Prophet, praise be and all, would nonetheless no doubt gape in abject disbelief at some of the stuff his followers have been up to.
He would not. In fact, the Lord would forgive them if they asked for forgiveness. At no time would I think Jesus would promote any violence for the mochery of Himself. Nav might have a different interpretation than I do. The Lord did get angry about money lenders in the Temple and turned over their tables but He never called for violence against those that hated Him. Give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's if you will. Stuff like the abortion clinic bombings, Crusades, and other such events, I'm sure, the Lord would not have approved of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Not that anyone would read a reply this late in the discussion, but I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding exactly what the Muslims are protesting against. Am I to understand that the Danish cartoon pictured the prophet Muhammed with the top part of his turban shaped like a bomb with a fuse attached? Thus, it's suggesting that Islam is a religion of violence. And what has the response been so far?
"No, it's the religion of peace, d***it! Kill all the infidels who suggest otherwise! Burn their flags and merchandise, burn everything!"
:inquisitive:
I can't imagine a better example of making your opponent's point for him.
A friend and I were talking about this yesterday, and he asked me: "What's more important, religious sensitivity or freedom of speach?" My answer was instinctive: freedom of speech. Why? Because the truth is more important that any individual's personal feelings and preferences.
The trouble is, True Believers always think *they* know the Truth... And not just any old truth, but The Truth. You know, the fundamental one.
Which naturally tends to make them rather unsympathetic to alternative explanations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
I think the biggest issue is, that not under any circumstances is Muhammad supposed to made images of. I think most of the protestors don`t know anything else than that cartoons of him has been printed.
I'm starting to get the feeling that this isn't about the cartoons anymore. This seems to be evolving into a general Anti-West 'movement'. The longer this goes on, the less sympathy I have for them. It's rare that incidents cause me to change my mind about my most basic beliefs, but my belief in the general goodness of the greater Muslim population is being severely shaken. In situations like this, if you do not decry the violence that is being done, you are condoning it.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Well, there's one more link required to connect fundamentalism to violence. I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking that your beliefs are correct - everyone has to hold to this idea somewhat; otherwise we would never act on anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
To go from strong convictions to violence, you also have to believe that it's your responsibility to force everyone to think as you do (not just convince them of what you consider true). You need a willful blindness to the viewpoints of other people; you can't think about their well-being at all.
Basically, in order to commit violence in the name of "the truth," you have to pick a narrow few "truths" to focus on and ignore all the rest.
They're using the occasion to air their assorted grudges, anxieties and - yes - prejudices. Quite typical but hardly commendable mob behaviour.
Figuratively speaking, the issue with the cartoons made the crack that broke down the dam and now the whole torrent's bursting forth.
Methinks the leap from plain fundamentalism to the violent kind happens almost exclusively only if there's enough other issues to prompt it. Sort of how like witch hunts only ever happened when communities felt sufficiently insecure and anxious, or how massive race riots tend to be detonated by some as-such unremarkable and depressively common incident of authority racism.
Bottle that sort of stuff long enough, and it will burst out violently over some as-such minor triggers.
You know, over the past few days I've begun to feel the same way. I don't want to believe that Islam is a religion of violence, and many events over the past years failed to make me think so. For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
1. Pre-9/11 acts of terrorism didn't do it. In truth I didn't hear about them often, and didn't pay much attention when I did. Terrorism was just something that popped up on the news now and then, and it was done by many different groups.
2. 9/11 didn't do it. Crowds of Muslims celebrated in the Middle East came close, though.
3. Suicide bombings, car bombings, and other violent acts post-9/11, which have received more media coverage, didn't do it. These and all of the previously mentioned incidents could be dismissed as a relatively small number of extremists committing acts of insanity.
But lately, we have:
1. The election of an radical with intolerant and violent tendencies in Iran.
2. The election of a terrorist group to lead the Palestinians.
3. Large-scale, violent (even deadly) protests across the Muslim world over a cartoon.
These are actions of the mainstream, not a few fringe groups. It can no longer be denied - something is seriously wrong with Islam as it is currently practiced. The question is, what can be done to fix it?
You're confusing religion and society now, although I'll give you te two can be hard to keep apart when discussing Muslim countries. Muslims aren't rioting (or whatever) because of Islam; they're rioting (or whatever) over a whole host of issues, for which Islam provides a socially acceptable and fairly safe front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
Remember, for most Muslim countries not only did the Middle Ages in practice only end around late 1800s and early 1900s, virtually the entire postcolonial period has been spent under the 'benign' rule of dictatorships and other such nasties. But as even the worst tyrants tended to balk at the idea of crushing Islamist movements with the same brutal efficiency they used on other naysayers (rarely due to personal convictions, but simply because that'd most likely have pissed off most of their populace but good and no canny tyrant wants *that*); this left more-or-less radical Islamist movements as the main outlet of protest against almost anything, and this state of affairs persists to this day. Which is obviously a bit problematic given that such movements have been taking increasingly radical turns as of late.
Although they tended to be outlawed, back in the day Communist and/or Socialist movements (as about the only organized resistance around) tended to meet similar social demands in much of Asia and Latin America. This can be witnessed even today in the curious Maoist rebels of, whatwasit, Nepal ?
Islam itself has nothing that would make it unable to exist with Democracy, any more than christianity in (for example) 15th Century Spain did. But one more time: Christianity changed. It adapted. scriptures were re-examined.
The Islamic leaders should go back to basics and build a more tolerant code of practice for the 21st Century. It's been several centuries since the last one, it could do with an update. Of course I imagine they like things the way that they are: if Muslims feel "got at" by all these pictures etc etc, they are more likely to remain a power. To be all nice to people never gets the leaders ahead.
~:smoking:
Mind you, what "scriptures were re-examined" led to in practice was a century of wholesale slaughter and atrocities between Catholics and Protestants, and it took the apocalyptic ruin of the Thirty Years' War before folks decided enough was enough.
So it'd probably be safer to leave the Scriptures themselves alone and instead concentrate on people's attitudes to them.
What made Europe follow the path that skyrocketed it far ahead of everyone else, and the Muslim world to enter a long period of ossification around the same time, is something historians still break lances over. However, the earlier history of the Islamic world proves concretely enough the faith is not by itself in no ways hostile to learning, enlightement and general progress.
Man + Woman are very different... so not all friction is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Oh fergitit. It's just that I ain't never herd yew fellar use all them big wurds and talkin' 'bout the Lawd that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Psychologists do also know that in-groups are always seen as moral superior to out-groups. In fact, minimal group paradigmas have shown that groups do not need to differ heavily to bring friction. Even randomly generated groups that only differ by colored bands can evoke racist tendenties. The lesson to learn is that frictions are not a function of the differences of groups but of the mindset of the members of the groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
To me it seems as if these protest are also a sign of helplessness. They know very well that they can't change anything about the way Europe is and at the same time they don't understand Europe. Since ignorant people are afraid of what they don't understand, they experience a vague, looming threat against which they don't have weapon. I don't want to offend anyone but I think these people demonstrate a culture of immaturity and insecurity.
I certainly did not intend to; sorry if I gave anyone that idea. That's why I didn't say there was something wrong with Islam, but rather Islam as it is currently practiced. I was referring to the overall culture and attitude of the Muslim world, not the religion per se. Although you're right; it is a bit difficult to divide the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I'm fully aware that, at least in theory, there is a possibility for a Muslim "reformation" of sorts. I just hope it doesn't take anything like the religious wars of Europe to make it happen.
Methinks it is already underway, through the inevitable filtration of what might be termed "modern" values, cultural icons (think McDo's and suchlike) and so on into the Islamic world.
Which is, obviously, among the causes for the anxiety now getting shouted out in the streets. It's my firm belief that worry about "cultural polution" of sorts, or at least "debasement of our traditional values", is among the prime motivators of most Muslim extremists.
Not that anyone ever had too easy a time accepting that sort of thing. We have had and have no shortage of reactionaries in the West either, after all. Heck, the damn Nazis were partly a reaction against modernity...
I get warnings now if I speak urban or hick.:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Well looks like the UN is taking action....
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/02/06/D8FJPIBG2.html
which is just basically lip service like everything the UN says or its fearless leader says. Too bad the UN isn't located in Europe where it can get torched like the rest of Europe will be in the next 5 to 10 years. Europe needs to learn to be more tolerant like they constantly preach to the US to be. The irony really is that NOW after all the rioting and criminal acts of their newest "citizens", the Europeans are sounding more like Pat Buchanan at an all white golf course.:laugh4:
Same thing here. In 2002, when the extreme right reached the 2nd turn of the presidential election, I manifest, joined an anti-racism association (SOS Racisme). Yet, over the past few years, I changed my mind, and I'm now on the verge of blank racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Right now, with the cartoon issue, I think we should either bomb them or stop all kind of diplomatic and trading relations with the middle east, bar a few countries and let them do whatever they want in their lands. I have no more pity, I don't even want to understand them anymore. I read the Qur'an, a lot of books on Islam, but now I don't respect this religion anymore, nor I want to hear anything about it.
Well, frankly, what should have Annan said ? 'Stop right now, or we're going to bomb the hell out of you a make jokes about Mohammed daily ?'. The UN is powerless atm. They are supposed to deal with governements, not with angry crowds.Quote:
Originally Posted by DD
The UN can't even deal with bad catering to one of its millions of "meeting" let alone any rogue government or unruley mob. :laugh4:
The site of the Arab European League (AEL) has over the past few days posted anti semetic cartoons in reaction to the Danish caricatures. I'm not going to provide a link, as it probably would be a violation of the forum rules. Google for AEL if you're interested.
I can only wonder what these guys were "thinking"...
"Shameless dogs! You can't abuse freedom of speech like that! Watch as we do the same!"
and
"Blasphemous Danes, slandering our prophet! Let's pick on the jews!"
~:rolleyes:
Just to confuse and bewilder the Muslims, I think Christianity should steal the prophet Muhammed and claim him as a sacred symbol of Christianity, and that we'll fight to the death to protect his good name.
Bomb who, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
I think this is the view of a lot of Europeans. You invite people into your country, protect them, give them the same opportunities as everyone else, and then it appears that they reject this all.Quote:
Right now, with the cartoon issue, I think we should either bomb them or stop all kind of diplomatic and trading relations with the middle east, bar a few countries and let them do whatever they want in their lands. I have no more pity, I don't even want to understand them anymore. I read the Qur'an, a lot of books on Islam, but now I don't respect this religion anymore, nor I want to hear anything about it.
This isn't the case though, the people in the Middle East burning stuff aren't European Muslims, and the extremists here are just idiots. There are plenty of home grown fanatics for other causes who happily blow stuff up and threaten violence for some vague, never-achieveable goal.
There's also the little detail that the average European is either unaware or unwilling to admit just how badly the immigrant groups on the average get Ye Olde Boot In The Head...
Someone once said "give them work and tolerance so they don't segregate into veil cults." Too bad that has not, in practice, been tried too hard...
The guys who torched the ambassadies, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Yeah, sure, they were and are probably badly treated, and in some places, second class citizens. But that's what happen to migrants everywhere in the world. I'm fully aware my point of view may sounds silly, but why the hell our Pole or Cambodian migrants don't piss me off as much as the muslim ones ? As I said in the topic about the french suburb riots, I don't feel responsible for what my parents or grand parents did to them 30 years earlier. Yet, as a someone studying in a relatively big city, I constantly have to deal with the - mostly arab - scums. I'm not speaking about serious stuffs like rapes, racketerring (if that's the correct word), but about the everyday little annoyances that makes you feel they hate you while you don't deserve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Great. And do you have a genius idea to integrate them into a western society ? In liberal countries, governements allowed them to do whatever they want, thinking they would sooner or later turn into average europeans. It didn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
In France, we tried to impose our values and customs upon them. It didn't work.
Should we teach them La Marseillaise in arabic ?
Whether you feel responsible for it or not doesn't lessen their plight one bit, far as I can tell.
People who feel like they're not welcome in a community will react accordingly. And young men without future prospects are a major source of trouble everywhere; add that to the above, and what the Hell can you expect ?
Hey, our Asian migrants never drew even a fraction of the hostility the rather more numerous Somali refugees who came in the early Nineties still get. Doesn't make the latter's lot any better, or the problems our society gets from it any less largely self-inflicted.Quote:
I'm fully aware my point of view may sounds silly, but why the hell our Pole or Cambodian migrants don't piss me off as much as the muslim ones ?
It's racism, pure and simple. That it's concentrated on a single prominent (and relatively large) group quite possibly only makes it worse - if nothing else, it's not even being consistent...
There are divisions in Islam.
There isn’t a unique lecture of the Koran. Because there is no Pope in Islam, no Rome (even if Saudi Arabia wishes to be seen as), a lot of scholars debate the faith and its practise. The best known is between Shiite and Sunnite, but Islam goes from pacific Sufis to the more reactionaries Wahabists and Taliban for the most extremists.
The main problem to reform Islam is the book was written by the Prophet himself. Christianity rules were fixed 300 years after Christ, and base on documents written 60 years after his death the resurrection. Knowing that Christ died at around 33 years old and his disciples were probably around the same age, that let the atheists like me questioning the validity of such witness, but that is another debate…:laugh4:
The New Testimony is the base of Christianity, not the Bible, which is recognised by the Christians (and the Muslim) is questionable. The words of Christ himself are depending of the witness. The Muslims haven’t such possibility of doubts.
But interpretations of the words are still possible, and all the Muslims intellectuals during the centuries never failed to do it.
Islam and Democracy are mixable. Who could have believed that the Catholic Inquisition would melt, that people like Torquemada would give path to Las Casas.
Ok, it cost the extermination of all South and Central America, but all religions could evoluate.
The question at this point then becomes, can we reform Islam and improve the condition of Muslims quickly enough to prevent an all-out conflict between them and the West? What's scaring me is that the positive movements seem to be advancing much slower than the march towards all out warfare.
Except it wasn't, AFAIK. It was compiled not long after his death when the rulers of the Caliphate became alarmed at the fact there were, oh, about three somewhat differing versions of the creed currently being circulated in their realm. So they set to work codifying the thing, gathered the most reliable versions, double-checked the whole thing with the Prophet's private secretary, and declared the end result unchangeable and inviolable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Which actually worked. To my knowledge Muslims haven't engaged in the Christian pasttime of Massacre Over Translation Errors and the like, although sectarian violence and factionalization over interpretation was naturally never absent.
'Course, I suspect the average Muslim will seriously blow a fuse if you try to tell most of the above to him. I once managed to goad a perfectly sensible, moderate imam into a quite lenghty exposition of apocryphal 'proof' of the Prophet's divine miracle-working abilities via the simple expedient of asking a few nosy questions about the man. The experience was enough to convince me Muslims tend to have a bit of hair trigger about some things.
You're using the word racism a little too liberally, methinks. True racism generally involves one group hating another group without being provoked. It's a superiority complex that ALL people have, if you say you aren't a little racist or a little prejudicistic towards something that either goes against your moral values, or is threatening the destruction of your way of life then I'd call you a complete liar.
Meneldil brings up a very valid point, and it is, that there is a good reason to be wary of Islamic Fanatics. It's a natural developed thought process, that seeks the best ways for self preservation.
If you didn't want to go into a place contaminated with Ebola Virus, but someone said you were racist because you didn't want to be close to the victims, because you might get killed, I don't see anything racist about that.
What scarces me the most is, that Denmark was one of the first european countries to show solidarity with USA, in terms of the Iraq war (I still dont agree with it) - but USA takes a long while before they back Denmark up in this conflict - true allies... right