The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

[QUINTUS]: Senators! Is there no man among you who will lead the Republic to further glories? By the gods, all this talk of consolidation makes me regret ever promising not to seek re-election!

Let me speak frankly with you, brothers. Unless you have attempted to lead this great Republic, it is hard to understand the economic constraints upon her. Never, in the many games and exercises I played in my youth in the Academy, have I experienced one where the economic constraint is so tight.

I also remind you, gentlemen, that this long campaign we have set ourselves will be very hard. We afford our citizens more luxuries than our cruel neighbours provide their own. Consequently, every rival faction earns a bonus of 10000 gold each season above what we can obtain.

Those are the stubborn facts, on which I hope we can agree.

So, I ask this - what do they imply?

Some of you infer that the tightness of our economy implies that we should cease conquest for fives years and consolidate. I believe this is misguided. Given the extra income our rivals receive, I suspect a period of peace will allow them to pull ahead and we will fall behind. And in absolute terms - after five years of stagnation, what will have changed? Very little, I suspect. We will still lack a navy capable of defleating the massive armada that Carthage recently threatened Sicily with. The time taken to get the necessary naval infrastructure is simply too long. We can already recruit the best troops possible. And the returns to investing in markets, roads or ports appear to me rather slim compared to the stiff initial outlays required.

By contrast, my inference from the above facts is that economic constraints necessitate unrelentless expansion. Conquest will provide the resources that we can use to plough back into our economy. Noble Senators, we already have the means to expand continuously by land. We already have four legions - enough to free a Consular army for Gaul, while leaving legion-sized garrisons in Sicily and central Italy. I do not believe we would need to raise further substantial field formations to secure Cisalpine Gaul, only a few garrison troops. Consequently, I believe capturing Gaulish settlements will increase the net resources available for our navy and our economy, not reduce it. We can take Cisalpine Gaul and then decide what direction next to take - west, into Transalpine Gaul, or east into Illyria.

I call upon you Senators who have not yet spoken - is there no man among you who will fight for the republic you love?

As consul Quintus has managed to conquer a vast swath of territory, brought large amounts riches and slaves to our cities, and also has managed to defeat a large number of enemy troops versus minor losses of our own, he should be granted a Triumph.
I would ask consul Quintus to deliver proof to this house that he has satisfactied the necessary requirements. Our enemies have not been completely defeated, but as they are driven from our lands our troops can go home safely. I am not sure how many enemies have been slain and if this reaches the required number of 5.000 slain, but seeing our minor losses I am willing to be lenient on this requirement.

I propose motion #6 :
Consul Quintus should be granted leave by the senate to celebrate a Triumph.

Edit : Remove double post.

I second that.

Braden: My inbox is empty now.

Given the situation I must say that I agree fully with Quintus.

There is much to be said of the gold that fills our treasuries from sacking towns and then taxing the inhabitants.

To this end I would even support the landing of an army on Greek soil. The small distance by sea would not require a large fleet. Indeed a small fleet could make several trips in a season and still return safely to harbor. It is far from the perilous voyage that sailing to Carthage would require. It would also relieve the pressure for large garrisons in Italy which we currently face.

Quintus, I take heed of your greater knowledge of our current financial state and of the mechanics of finance.

Do you not find it slightly amusing that not so long ago you were telling me that I was perhaps too eager for conquest and now it seems our roles are reversed?

However, since your advice clearly shows that I am lacking in understanding of how our economy is best served I am willing to concede the issue here. I have, as you know, long been in favour of expansion Northwards and to pursue the Gauls once our immediate threats have been negated.

It appears that time is upon us now. In your opinion, what would be required of Rome to pursue and finish such a campaign? I would certainly be in favour of the conquest of Cisalpine and Transalpine Gaul and the Four settlements therein.

If the Senate can be assured that such an exploit would not:

1) Be such an undue drain on the Republics funds as to preclude the commencement of building towards a greater navy.
2) Cause us to become over extended militarily.

I am sure that such assurances from yourself can go along way to negating some of the fears expressed in the Senate so far this session.

By way of more general questions, I ask if we have sufficient number of members in the Lower House to take up governorships of these new conquests, I understand that the culture shock to the general populas of these settlements is likely to be great and as such we will have to either appoint very studious governors OR steel ourselves to decimate the poor locals of these towns.

The 2nd option is not one I would enjoy, nor would I vote for it. I have seen babes put to death by the sword…..it is not something I will have party too again in my lifetime.

On a lighter note, the current motions. Whilst it is commendable to consolidate the current list of motions I now find it hard to vote for some of those placed by Senator Sextius. Whilst I believe we should attempt to gain peace with Carthage at this time I now do not agree we should hamstring the next Consul with a pledge of lasting peace for 5 years. I do not believe we should, or are in a position to openly strike at Carthage again directly, I believe Quintus would agree with that – we do not have the navy that it would require – but that does not mean we should not attempt to absorb further territory by land or within the Sea.

If the motion remains as it is I will have to vote negative for motion 3.

Motion 5. Whilst sections (b) and (c) are agreeable to me, I see little use for section (a). If we pledge to march against Gaul the region in question will no longer be a border state and I doubt there will be a need for a stationed garrison in that region.

However, I trust we will enable the new Consul to fight as he sees fit and that he will not uphold that section of the motion.

As for Motion 4, I have not qualms about rewarding Quintus in this way.

We certainly need to expand but believe, before we strike East against the Greeks again we must expand and remove the Gauls from our door. Then I would support a landing against the Greeks, if not also on Sardinia.

Noble senators, I wish to ammend some of my motions.

MOTION #3:
This house proposes that:
(a) the new consul makes peace with Carthage, with the option of taking Melite before they do so.
(b) an offensive be amde against the Gauls of Cisalpine Gaul.
(c) that the new consul focus on the economy and prosperity, rather than army.
(d) that econmonic growth is to take a higher priority than expanison.

MOTION #5:
This house proposes that:
(a) Legio I move to a fort in the mountain pass leading to Transalpine Gaul, and Legio II move to a fort near Aquilea on the Roman side of the border.
(b) the Consular army at Agrigento be divided, half moving to a fort in southern Italia and half to a fort in central Sicilia.
(c) the Senate votes on the names the legions. (I.e. Legio I Victrix or Legio III Italia.)

Could the Senate Speaker please make the necessary alterations?

I add my name to Second those Motions as now tabled by Senator Sextius.

Senators, the words of Senator Quintus are wise and the experience from which he speaks adds great weight to his words. However, I am still wary of advancing before we are able and beyond our means. I am not a pacifist by any means, but I fear moving too far, too fast with too many provinces to defend against too many stinking Gauls. If, in the course of my Consulate, I felt that the Republic was strong enough to advance into Cisalpine Gaul, with the approval of the Senate, and without risking disaster, I would do so. The areas below the Alps certainly must be secured from that vile plague for Rome to be truly safe, I simply do not believe in a mandated requirement to take said provinces. Such a requirement cannot properly anticipate the readiness of the Republic during the course of the next consulate. What if the Punic armies return to Sicily? What if the Greeks land forces in the South?

I say we risk disaster if we mandate expansion at this point. Let us leave it to the next Consul to determine when war with Gaul should begin.

[QUINTUS]: Senator Augustus Verginius, your flexibility and caution does you credit. I suggest that you propose a motion, similar to that which I used to authorise the invasion of Sicily. That is to say, a motion authorising, but not mandating, you to declare war on Gaul if you judge the time right. Such a motion would avoid you having to return to the Senate to authorise a declaration of war and so speed up our campaign. I believe those who support advancing on Gaul should support such a motion, although they may also vote for other stronger motions.

On a personal note, Senators, I must humbly beg you not to vote for motion 4. Indeed, I plead with my good friend Senator Antio Sextus to withdraw the motion. Senator Braden speaks of it as a reward, but in fact I regard it as a punishment. From Senator Publius Laevinius's appearance in this house, you have seen what happens to a fighter when you assign him to a life of peace. It breaks his spirit and leaves only bitterness. If I am assigned to govern a settlement, I will have to resign my post as Second Consul. This means that - should Carthage land in Sicily - my ability to command a defence will be reduced by as much as three points out of seven. Furthermore, as I am already an ex-Consul, there will be no benefit from relinquishing my position as Second Consul. I urge you instead to leave the next First Consul free to deploy me as he wishes, hopefully as an army commander and still with the rank of Second Consul.

Indeed, this speaks to a wider issue raised by Senator Braden: whether we have enough governors for occupied settlements. I believe the world is such that there will never be enough fine generals to govern every settlement. Moreover, members of the Lower House will doubtless much prefer to be in the field than governing towns. Remember - to be a Legate requires 10 years in the field, not in a settlement. I am proud that during my Consulship, I managed to secure Tiberius Coruncanius and Publius Laevinus the posts of legate. I believe Luciud Amelius will also be eligible for such a promotion soon. In due course, they may all become Praetors and then later replace me as Second Consul. However, I confess that towards the end of my reign, the natural tendency to let generals end the season in a settlement may have overcome me. My successor would be better advised to always keep our Lower House members in the field or in forts, not languishing in settlements. This implies that settlement loyalty must be secured by larger garrisons, lower taxes or, in time, the good work of members of the Upper House who will take on civic duties.

As motion 4 was intended, I hope, to be reward for you Consul Quintus I can only withdraw my support for it if you, its intended recipient, does not approve of it.

It is obviously better for the members of the lower house to continue field commands and not languish in settlements like us Senators (laughs), I believe the Senates only concern is with unrest and the best way many of us have been told to address unrest with the people of a settlement is the presence of a strong governor. It that is not a necessity, then I for one would not be against your advice.

Good day to you all Senators,

I see a lot has been discussed of our future plans, but before I lay my plans before you all, I wish to congratulate Consul Quintus with his achievements thus far. Had your soldiers hailed you Imperator on the field of battle, I then would have supported a Triumph, now however as that is not the case, I must respectfully disagree with senator Amelius on that matter.

I see that while I was sleeping Sicily has been successfully taken, and that we are now at war with Carthage also.

That, I did not expect to happen on such as short notice...however I do agree that they were the ones who started it. They should never have positioned a large force near our consular armies.

Since they started this conflict we should offer them a ceasfire, the same goes for the treacherous Greeks. We should try and make some money of both of them before we completely destroy them, what do you think ?

Eventually I propose to use that newly aquired money to finance the re enforcement of our current standing armies. If that is done, we should recruit a new one. To, when the time comes, send North.

If both the Greeks and Carthaginians refuse our offer of a ceasfire, and with respect I would like to see some proof of their refusal, we should destroy them utterly. I propose to then take out Carthage first, this will not bring us into direct contact with other factions but it would give us some very fertile land, and a great trading centre. Greece 'll endanger our good relations with Macedon, and would maybe even ( if Macedon is still allied to the Greeks ) bring us into an expensive war against Greece backed by the Macedonians.

We'd win, of course, but it will cost us dearly I imagine.

Now as for the motions....I've obviously missed a few of them, and I must inform myself before I pass judgement.

:balloon2:

[QUINTUS]: Senator Lucius Amelius is most generous in proposing awarding me a triumph. He requests that I verify that I meet the conditions for such an honour.

Once condition is to slay 5000 enemies.

If this refers to a single battle, then clearly I have not met the condition (OOC: we may want to scale up - according to the historical army guidelines, our RTW legions are about 400 men; real life they were about 10x as large).

If it refers to all twelve battles I have personally led as First Consul, then alas the total slain is only 4990 enemies (for the loss of 453 of our own).

However, if we add to that total the three victories obtained in my campaigns under the leadership of my Legate Tiberius Coruncanius, at Paestum and elsewhere, then we will exceed the 5000 total.

A second condition is that I be Consul. My victories were achieved as First Consul and although no longer standing for that post, continued command of "Consular Army I" would allow me to retain the title of Second Consul.

The third condition is that I return the army to Roma. Senators, nothing would give me greater joy than to bring the men back home. Returning our Consular army would allow us to refit our troops with the improved equipment from the armoury under construction there. It would also make it easy to transfer replacements to bring our cohorts back up to full strength. Finally, it would bring our Consular army close to where the next fighting is likely to be - in Gaul.

However, noble Senators, you will all have seen the potential threat posed by the Carthaginian armada currently at sea. If the Consular army is to return, it is essential that Legio I, currently en route to Sicily, be stationed on the island and in fact be supplemented by additional troops - notably cavalry and triari.

Senator Marcus Laevinus, to what reasoning do you wish to deny our Consul Quintus his deserved triumph? Having led such a successful campaign with so few losses, I see no reason not to proceed with the ceremony. Surely such military prowess deserves to be recognised and celebrated?

On the issue of Carthage: I believe that a ceasefire should be sought after until we can achieve naval superiority. The Carthaginians are a maritime power with forbidable fleets. Seeking to conquer their lands would require a large, powerful fleet which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have access to currently.

On the issue of Gaul: It has been proposed that we hold off this inevitable war for at least 5 years whilst we look to resolve economic problems. It has also been said that a conquest of Gallic lands in Nortern Italy could relieve some of the monetary problems we are facing. Should it be proven that these spoils of war will replenish our coffers, I will reconsider my opinion on the matter. However, it is uncertain wether the military could handle the conquest alone, let alone a counter-attack from the barbarians.

I say we remain peaceful for the next few years, raising enough money to develop our naval technology and perhaps raise some legions in preparation for a conquest of the Gallic tribes in Northern Italy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Craterus

Senator Marcus Laevinus, to what reasoning do you wish to deny our Consul Quintus his deserved triumph? Having led such a successful campaign with so few losses, I see no reason not to proceed with the ceremony. Surely such military prowess deserves to be recognised and celebrated?

.

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I agree, they should be celebrated and recognized. I however disagree in the means in which the people must celebrate.

A triumph needs to be something very,very special. Now I do acknowledge the fact that Consul Quintus could put 10 fallen enemies for every one Roman slain in battle, I do find that a great achievement.

But we must do this by the book, if one is not hailed Imperator on the field, he is not to be awarded a Triumph by the senate.

I'm sure that With Consul Quintus's tactical finesse on the battlefield, that moment will soon come, but it is not now.

:balloon2:

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius, candidate for Consul.

Senators, this is a very important time for our republic. We have established Rome as an undisptued regional power in Italy, and it is now time to move to the next phase, becoming a world power, one capable of challenging Carthage or any of the successor states.

To acomplish this, we need a fleet. Without a fleet, the only thing we'll ever be able to conquer will be barbarian lands, which have nice scenery but little else of interest. Even to secure Italy from invasion we will need a fleet. We are currently at war with two naval powers, who can strike at us at will, and receive no retaliation. We need a fleet, urgently. There are many other things we need: auxilia infrastructure, economic infrastructure, and more legions. But they are all secondary to our need for a fleet. We need a large fleet, at least 20 ships to support amphibious operations of Consular armies. We also need an advanced and powerful war fleet to challenge the Carthaginians and the Greeks, and to establish naval superiority over the western and central Mediterranean. Infact, what we really need are two fleets! In time, of course, and for the moment we should focus on getting at least one.

I understand many of you see the building of a fleet as a costly and time-consuming effort, and that is perhaps true for a highly advanced fleet, as it would neccesiate the development of a lot of infrastructure. But most of the Greek cities we captured already contain the infrastructure for the construction of Aphracts, which we can use. Within one year, we could have a fleet sufficient to transport a Consular army, and we could finance it without tapping into the current treasury, but alone from the income we will gain over the next year! Of course, it won't be a very advanced fleet, and if it ever defeats a Carthaginian fleet, it would be by outnumbering them, but we could still invade Africa from Sicily. The distance involved is short, and the Carthaginian fleet is not defending that strait vigorously, probably because they don't expect an invasion.

As far as the north is concerned, I see it as a target of opportunity. If there is a good opportunity to conquer some land, and then reestablish peace, without detracting from the efforts in the south, then we should take it. But I have no interest in starting a major campaign against the Gauls. There is nothing up there, and the Gauls are not hostile at the moment.

The Carthaginians on the other hand, are hostile, and will remain so. Even if we make peace with them, they would invade Sicily at first opportunity. We would have to leave a large army down there, compromising any efforts against the Gauls. By invading Africa, we do one of two things. We either gain a very advantageous negotiating position should we want peace. Or we effectively destroy Carthage, should that be our objective. In either case, we could gain a stable peace, and many new lands. The war against Carthage cannot be over while they still have the ability or will to strike us in Sicily or Italy.

If I am elected Consul, my primary goal will be to see the Carthaginian threat eliminated quickly and decisively. If, on the other hand, you wish this conflict to drag on, with our lands continuously threatened, then feel free to vote for someone else.

First of all, Senator Quintus, may I both congratulate you and apologise to you. I must confess I came to this Noble House full of ire at what I saw as your warmongering against the mighty Carthaginians. However, now I have read your consular report I see that I was most hasty. The crucifixion of 2 Roman Citizens by Carthage was quite simply a crime that could not go unpunished! Furthermore, I believe that the conquest of Sicily does not even begin to avenge their great crime! This house knows my feelings on expansion & declaring war by our noble Republic, but Carthage must be made to pay! I shall not be satisfied till they are on their knees begging us for peace!

My father is correct when he says that we need a fleet, both for offense and defense. Without a fleet, our lands lie at the mercy of Carthage who have the ability to land troops at will anywhere along our extensive coastlines. We need a fleet at the very least to protect Rome. But my father is also correct to point out that even a small fleet could transport an army to the city of Carthage before they even knew they were there. I would delight in our troops looting treasure from their royal palaces and stripping the gold from their temples. Perhaps, once we have stripped the city to the bone we could offer it back to them in return for peace?

But I let my desire for revenge take my thoughts too far into the future. We must build a fleet and we must avenge ourselves on Carthage. We must vote for my father, Tiberius Coruncanius

Some of the opinions of my fellow senators confuse me.

You talk of consalidating our current holdings and raising more fleets and armies. Let us not forget that everyday Gaul grows in power as they too consolidate their lands. Soon, we may find a Gaulic Army at the doors of Rome herself. Then again, they may never come.

Right now all we have is speculation. I think it is unlikely that Carthage will accpet a ceasefire, they have many advantages now: stornger navy, more settlements to draw troops from etc. That means we can only hold them off until we are ready to challenge them for control of the seas. Let us leave the first Consular army in Scilia, so that we can repel any attack.

Then comes the issue of Gaul, I think they are ready for war, and we are not. We should raise at least another Legion to head north and support Legio II. This will allow us to protect our lands, and launch a counter-attack at short notice. This should please all of us here in the Senate, it will give us infinite options and choices for future conquests of Rome.

Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, I must ask your views....perhaps ideas on a few issues that correspond to your manifesto.

Firstly, I wholeheartedly agree with your proposal that we need a significant naval presence and you have appraised the Senate that several of the Greek settlements we have liberated have the technology to build ships, although quite weak when compared to those that sail from Carthage. This idea interests me greatly and my question is thus: Would it be wise or even fiscally better to seek other Greek settlements with similar or even more advanced ports?

I think to those in Illyria initially due to there location near to us.

My next question deals with logistics. How much land does Carthage control? Do you see yourself as Consul securing Carthage herself, or would that fall to the next Consul or the one beyond that?

Now, lastly, the Gauls. I am certain I speak for many when I ask what measures for our security do you intend against any Gallic incursions? I personally would rather countance a short expansion to secure those Gallic lands directly to our North prior to committing fully to the conquest of Carthage. To my knowledge, the Gauls are still yet to be united and all we will do is remove their disparent states and cease being a bordering nation with them.....a lack of direct borders often leads to a swift resolution of hostilities.

I am, like you, not overtly concerned with the Gauls other than the tactical placement of their lands to the North. They are, in effect, the gateway to Italy and then Roma.

Should we not be the gate keeper?

I believe you hold the Gallic warriors with too much caution, I strongly suspect that a small force can secure our borders for many seasons to come and well within 3 years.

It would but be a minor diversion whilst we prepare fully for Carthage, would it not?

My fellow senators,
Once again I will run for the the office of first consul. I place myself in the exalted company of my fellow candidates to win your favour.

Consul Quintus has won a crushing victory, but a glance at our territory shows we have had to pay a heavy price for his bold offensives. Our economy is severely underdeveloped and our armies are battered and too few in number. We deperately need to reorganize and build. Why, without revenues from the new ports from Sicily we would be facing financial disaster ! The time has come to build and reorganize.
I agree with senator Tiberius Coruncanius that we should be wary of the Cartheginians and need to prepare a fleet to take the war to them. This is an expensive and long term operation and will not task our budget overmuch, as most of the required facilities are now in our hands thanks to Consul Quintus.
I also agree with most of the senate that the Gauls should be pushed back over the Alps where they belong. That said, I must say I was shocked to learn that no guard towers had been build at our northern frontier to give us advance warning of a possible Gaul raid while most of the army was away fighting in the south. I find this a serious oversight, but will leave it at that, considering the consul's long list of sucesses in his 5-year reign.

Should you elect me, I will concentrate on bringing our economy out of its sorry state and improving our standing armies and garrisons. A start will be made at building a fleet the moment the dockyard is finished, and construction of other ports will be a high priority to speed up the construction process.
When a small fleet has been assembled and a small praetorian army becomes available, I will attempt to capture our neighbouring islands which are held by Carthage. They will provide us with stepping stones for our eventual invasion of Afrika itself.
The moment troops are available another praetorian army will begin the conquest of Cisalpine Gaul. Loath as I am to make a third nation our enemy, we need to attack out of strategic necessity. We need to capture the strategically vital city of Patavium and expand our borders to the mountain passes. Then we will have a strong and secure frontier, which can be more easily defended.
Accordingly, I will send out more diplomats to bring in more trade and perhaps forge an alliance with the Iberians against Carthage. Most importantly, I will attempt to broker a peace deal with the Greeks, so we can profit from the valuable trade which this nation generates and will not need to fight on three fronts at once.
The remaining troops will be divided across our newly acquired territories to provide security while these goals are accomplished.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Motion #4 has been withdrawn by Senator Sextus Antio.

I remind the Senators, and especially the candidates, that if they intend to go to war with Gaul in the first two and a half years, it would be advisable to propose a motion enabling that in advance, otherwise it will be hard to secure the required Senate backing. Some motions do authorise war, but candidates should be content with their form of words or propose alternatives.

Senator Aemilius, I have but one question:

You speak of extending your borders to the mountain passes. Once Jenuensis, Bononia, Mediolanium, and Patavium have been taken, what then? Will you continue to expand? Make peace with Gaul? Guard your borders?

I fear we Romans have too much taste for glory and not enough for comfort. What good are victories if there are no Romans at home to enjoy the spoils?

As I think very complicated motions will tend to be voted down I will propose seperate and simple motions, which will however overlap with existing ones, but will allow the senate to specify their desires more exactly. My apologies to the scribes in advance.

Motion #4 : An attempt should be made to conquer Cispine Gaul (requires declaration of war with Gaul).

Motion #7 : An attempt should be made to further weaken the power of Carthage (will require the building of a fleet).

Motion #8 : An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).

Motion #9 : We should construct a fleet.

Motion #10 : An attempt should be made to create an alliance with the Iberians, with the goal of further weakening Carthage's power.

Furthermore, I would advise other senators that they can propose a motion to make peace with Carthage (I won't, as I do not desire it yet). They can also propose a motion to award consul Quintus an Ovation instead of a full triumph if they think he does not deserve one, but that he has done well anyway (I won't do that either, but I can see some discontent in the senate).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Senator Aemilius, I have but one question:

You speak of extending your borders to the mountain passes. Once Jenuensis, Bononia, Mediolanium, and Patavium have been taken, what then? Will you continue to expand? Make peace with Gaul? Guard your borders?

I fear we Romans have too much taste for glory and not enough for comfort. What good are victories if there are no Romans at home to enjoy the spoils?

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Senator GeneralHankerchief, I will cease expansion, as we will be overstretching ourselves already by then. I only advise to do this, as it will significantly improve our strategic position. Especially Patavium is immensely important for our security. I will station on a strong garrison there and a praetorian army within striking distance of all four towns. I will also construct guard towers to watch for an approaching army. I will also endeavour to make peace with the Gauls after my strategic objectives have been reached, but I will not resume trade with them as this has been forbidden by this house.

Treason! Senators, the Republic is being encouraged to ruin for personal glory and private gain! My most 'honored' collegues, Tiberius Coruncanius and Lucius Aemilius, seek to plunder and loot, no matter the cost to the Republic.

Senator Coruncanius agrees with me that Gaul is not worth the effort of a major offensive when so many provinces are lacking in infrastructure and our Legions are stretched thin. Yet at the same time, he proposes that we launch a full scale invasion of Africa! For this, he requires that we build port facilities, a massive invasion fleet, and enough Legions to take on the Punic foe at the very heart of his power, yet he also expects to expand the auxilia network and economic trade system. Senators, where is this money to come from? It is true that we have a seasonal income of nearly 10,000 dinarii, yet has any of you even considered the cost of the improvements which we all agree are required? Basic road networks alone will cost us 6,000 per province, and there are five provinces with such needs. The first phase of Auxilia training will cost 3,000 dinarii per province and seven provinces have need of this, most basic of improvements. Shipwrights in Rome and Tarentum, necessary if we are to engage in any prolonged conflict with the naval powers of Greece and Carthage, will cost 10,000 dinarii each! Just these three most necessary of improvements will cost us nearly two full years of the Treasury's income, and that does not include the cost of further economic and military improvements, the construction of a fleet capable of dominating our enemies and of Legions strong enough to invade another continent! Even the 10,000 dinarii income is deceiving, as our rapid military build-up will quickly reduce this down to a small amount, even if our foes decide not to blockade our ports with their powerful navies. An expedition against Punic Africa is not mere folly, my brothers, it risks the lives of every single Roman and puts the Republic in vastly unneeded danger.

As for Senator Lucius Aemilius, he desires to build our economy, prioritizing foremost the most expensive, yet necessary, naval facilities, while simultaneously invading the Carthaginian islands and taking all of Cisalpine Gaul. This is sheer insanity. Certainly, we can build fleets strong enough to defeat Carthage and Greece. Certainly, we can take the island provinces. Certainly we can take Cisalpine Gaul. What we cannot do is all of this at once! Senator Lucius Aemilius plans on capturing Cisalpine Gaul and I believe he can do it. No foe can withstand the might of Roman arms, but capturing a place and holding a place are two very different things. Senator Aemilius speaks as if holding the Alpine passes is a simple thing. His solution is to station a single Praetorian Army to cover all four provinces with the aid of a 'strong' garrison in Patavium. Yet three of those provinces cannot even be protected with walls, leaving them vulnerable to a lightning attack by the Gauls who will move before his Army react. In addition, the Gauls are not likely to great our Legions with flowers in their arms. There will be great unrest and garrisons will be needed to prevent any revolts by the barbarians. We will be sinking money into these provinces, but for what gain? It will take decades before any of them prove economically useful. These are barbarian towns, not civilized cities such as we have taken up to now. We will need to occupy and greatly invest in these provinces before we ever see any return at all. It will be a vast drain on our treasury, not a windfall. So what other reason is there? Security? Only a blind man could see more security in the occupation of four hostile provinces bordered by two barbaric peoples with five avenues of attack than in the strengthening of a border of merely two strong, Italian provinces that have a mere three avenues of attack. Gaul is our enemy, to be sure. They must pay in blood for their crimes against Rome, but now is not the time. What Senator Lucius Aemilius proposes will bankrupt the Republic for the sake of some smelly barbarian hovels!

Senators, I plead with you, show these short-sighted men that you are not as foolish. Examine the state of the world and explore the true costs of military, economic and infrastructure development for yourselves. We will risk all if we continue with massive campaigning against strong foes. We may win such a contest, it is most certainly possible. Yet such a win would still be a loss. Why conquer when the conquests bring less gain than domestic development? Why risk all when we can have all with no risk?

Perhaps Lucius Aemilius is excessively influenced by his 'Merchant' friend, who we all know is his oldest and most trusted advisor. Perhaps Tiberius Coruncanius needs more land for his extensive family. I do not know their motives for such folly that will benefit none but the looters and the priests. You all know me and you know my reputation. I am no great governor, no great politician. I am a simple military man, but I my loyalty to the Republic is known far and wide. Of the three of us, I would benefit the most from a prolonged military campaign, yet I oppose such a venture. I am loyal to the Republic. No loyal Roman would ever take such a risk with our very existence.

Senators, ask yourselves, where do your loyalties lie?

How corrupt some senators have become, when wealth and power are in their sights. They seek not the good of the Roman people, but the advancement of themselves. They speak of foolish notions, such as invading Africa, instead of using our wealth for common good, rather than for the glory of a few.

Well said, Senator Virginus; well said indeed. I have nothing to add on to, but perhaps you should run for Consul yourself. You would have my support if you did.

I am in fact running for Consul, though only out of a desire to serve the Republic and not for personal glory. My manifesto was made public yesterday, but it can be found in the Senate Library along with those of my colleagues.

Might I implore certain senators to realize that many of the improvements they speak of building throughout the empire are very very costly. Indeed thopse that are not beyond the capabilities of our current treasury would require the vast majority of the treasury. How much do you really propose to build considering our current financial constraints? Regardless of how much you envisage yourself of constructing i will tell you that you will find yourself and your dreams severely disappointed by our limited treasury.

As to those who propose fleets of warships to combat established naval powers such as Greece and Carthage I propose the same question. How much do you really propose to build considering our current financial constraints? Assembling such a fleet would require entire treasuries and leave little or no money for anything else.

Do you really believe that you can speak a word and fleets and stone roads will spring into being?

Our treasury needs to be increased. It must always be increased. And indeed the most permanent and most cost effective way in which to do this is through conquest.

Perhaps the worst crime in proposing such lengthy periods of peace is the cost of maintaining all of these armies which we have assembled. Paying these men to do nothing when they could instead be put to good use increasing our wealth and influence. Proposing to leave them to lie about is a horridly inefficient use of resources. Suddenly these armies become a burden rather than an asset.

What is this, Verginus? You are listing random buildings, saying how much they cost, and presenting that as proof that our treasury cannot support a war with Carthage? We do not need shipwrights, we do not need auxilia, we do not need road networks. We have, at this very moment, nearly 10 provinces in which we can build Aphracts, which only cost 700 each. Our treasury and current income can easily support the acquisition of 20 or so we'll need over the course of a year.

And what do you suggest we do instead? Sit around and wait for the Carthaginians to march on Rome? I only propose what is necessary to ensure the survival of the Republic.

Members of the Senate, as you know I have never been in favour of any military action that would bring us into conflict with Carthage. I have and still believe that we are not strong enough…yet…..however, the die was cast and we now find ourselves at war with them, weather we like it or not!

Carthage will NOT sit by and accept our unopposed occupation of Sicily. They will press us and compel us to battle at every point they can, they will blockade our ports and kill our troops.

Whilst I sense that a counter invasion of Afrika is beyond us in the next 5 years, I feel that Tiberius Coruncanius’s forward view and determination to at least make us READY for such occurrences makes him my favoured candidate.

Gaul. The truth be told, I feel insecure here in Roma with only Arretium between us and those Hordes of Chaos! Whilst I am not “scared” I am certainly worried enough to see the value in the short-term conquest of the regions to the North. For tactical reasons I understand the arguments, for and against this action so perhaps we should authorise further and more detailed investigation as to the economic wealth of these regions?

They lay on seemingly, fertile plains thus I surmise they should be able to sate our need for denarii with minimal investment. It is clear that I could be wrong, or those saying they are areas of little wealth could be equally wrong.

I can only think of one way of settling this argument……first hand information.

I say that should our agents inform us that these settlements a profitable we take them for the Republic….if they do not then we re-enforce the pass between Arretium and Ariminum.

Is it possible that our agents find this information out?

I suggest that the next Consul invests in our infrastructure first and foremost. Should it be seen as advantageous to take the Gallic lands to the North I still do not believe it will take a significant improvement in our current standing armies hence can be achieved alongside any building improvements.

Yes, without question, we must raise a larger navy to protect our ports from blockades and protect our lands from invasion.

However, I do not believe that we will be in a position to invade Afrika within the next tenure of Consul. The building blocks of such an undertaking can be laid in this next tenure, the undertaking itself can only successfully be completed in the 5 year period beyond the next.

So, whilst I strongly support Tiberius Coruncanius for Consul and applaud his plans I also acknowledge that it is unlikely that he will complete these plans……the treasury will just NOT support it all in the time period he wishes to complete it. It will not be the Senate that prevents his final actions but simply a lack of fiscal funding and I do not believe that a Senator of Coruncanius’s standing would bankrupt the Republic for personal gain, nor destroy its armies in a fruitless invasion.

[QUINTUS]: I would like to ask the candidates three questions:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

Motion #7 : An attempt should be made to further weaken the power of Carthage (will require the building of a fleet).

Motion #8 : An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).

Motion #9 : We should construct a fleet.

Motion #10 : An attempt should be made to create an alliance with the Iberians, with the goal of further weakening Carthage's power.

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I would like to second all of these motions

Motions 7 & 9 are no-brainers conscript fathers,we need a fleet first and foremost to protect ourselves from Carthage. We will also need a fleet if we are to go onto the offensive, have vengeance on Carthage for their great crimes and finish this war that they forced us into

Motion 8 - we cannot go on fighting 2 enemies at once. Carthage is the greater threat in the short and long term, so we must concentrate on them.

Motion 10 - it is of great concern to me that we currently have no allies anywhere in the world, whilst we fight wars with 2 of our nearest and most powerful allies.

As for Cisalpine Gaul, whilst I see the strategic logic in occupying it, the truth is Conscript Fathers that now is not the time - we are over-stretched and under-funded, vulnerable to attack anywhere due to our long coastline and small navy. We must focus our efforts on the troubles at hand, not create new ones.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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Second Consul Quintus, whilst I am not standing for the Consulship may I state my opinion that taking these islands would be a fools errand. Attacking Carthage here would do them as much harm as poking an elephant with a stick. We may be able to take these islands easily enough, but all it would do is further overstretch our limited resources, thin our army out, and add more cities that need Romanising! We would be unable to support, reinforce and re-supply our armies there, and Carthage would be able to easily blockade the ports.

We must concentrate our forces defensively, ready for any Carthaginian counter-attack, whilst at the same time building our strength whilst we wait to go onto the offensive ourselves.

As with Cisalpine Gaul, the last thing we need right now are more provinces!

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

What is this, Verginus? You are listing random buildings, saying how much they cost, and presenting that as proof that our treasury cannot support a war with Carthage? We do not need shipwrights, we do not need auxilia, we do not need road networks. We have, at this very moment, nearly 10 provinces in which we can build Aphracts, which only cost 700 each. Our treasury and current income can easily support the acquisition of 20 or so we'll need over the course of a year.

And what do you suggest we do instead? Sit around and wait for the Carthaginians to march on Rome? I only propose what is necessary to ensure the survival of the Republic.

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We do not need shipwrights? We do not need roads? We do not need auxilia? Do you hear this, fellow Senators? Senator Coruncanius believes he can fight the might of Carthage while only able to produce troops from our original three cities. Need I remind you that not a single of our new conquests is capable of produce anything but boats and agents? Even if Rome, Capua and Ancona recruit Legions and Auxilia constantly, we will be outpaced by both Punic and Gallic recruitment. As for shipwrights, does Senator Coruncanius plan to take on the Punic navy with nothing more than light warships? We might as well throw velites into melee with Spartans! If we are to be victorious on the seas, we must have powerful ships with which to defeat our enemies. As for roads, how does Senator Coruncanius expect to reinforce threatened borders? What if the Greeks were to land at Tarentum? It could take our Legions half a year or more to reach that place to defend it! Half a year more would be wasted returning to the Gallic frontier. I do not know about you, Senators, but I do not relish the idea of weakening our border with the Gauls for a day, let alone a year!

How is the conquest of Africa necessary for the survival of the Republic? Our Legions can defeat all which oppose them, but they must be full strength legions and they must be supported and supplied. How can we do this when they are in Africa and our only recruitment bases are in Rome, Capua and Ancona? An invasion of Africa can only be accomplished when Sicily itself can support the attack. This is what we should be doing.

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Originally Posted by econ21

[QUINTUS]: I would like to ask the candidates three questions:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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Certainly. I am only standing for Consul this term because of my firm belief that Rome must concentrate the majority of her efforts to short term domestic development. It is fully my intention to make the Republic ready to deal with any threats, whether they be Greek, Gallic or Punic. If I was elected, I would step down happily and vigorously support the election of a capable military commander to lead our Legions to further victories in whatever campaign this body chooses.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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It is more than economic, Senator Quintus. I am not an economist and my construction proposals go beyond providing more income. Certainly more roads and ports will increase income, but we are severely lacking in the infrastructure to support long-distance campaigns, especially in Africa. As I stated to Senator Coruncanius, we have only THREE cities in which we can recruit men for the Legions and the Auxilia. This is totally unacceptable. We must be able to raise men in many places at once to deal with threats both expected and unexpected. We must have roads and ships to transport these men to the threatened areas.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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If you shall recall, I was the *first* to propose such a thing. Of course, the lack of a serious fleet will make defending them difficult. That is why I shall build a formidable fleet before embarking on the expeditions. I must say again that I am not a pacifist. I recognize the benefits of conquest as well as any other. I am merely urging a more limited expansion over the next 5 years than my opponents. Why take Africa when we cannot yet support our Legions there? Why take Gaul when it will make us more vulnerable and drain our Treasury?

Senators, I do not propose to sit idly by. I propose that we build the strength of Rome into a mighty force that can strike anywhere it wishes, any time that it wishes. In five years we can advance in full force against any place that this body sees fit to take. In the mean time, let us pluck the the easy pickings that will secure our shores and let us build our strength.

I say again, why risk all when we can have all with no risk?

Senator Amulius Coruncanius, whilst is seems good prudence to wait now and focus internally and defensively I am greatly fearful that Carthage as a power will out produce us and out expand us completely.

Second Consul Quintus has worked hard and paid in blood to try and elevate the Republic on par with Carthage, if we pause now they will surely outstrip us further and his work will be to nought.

I do agree that we need to build infrastructure but we must not completely pause now, we are in a race against a great power and if we sit back and do nothing to expand and prosper we will surely become just a protectorate of Carthage!

I strongly believe that within the next 5 years we can achieve so much to further our cause against the Carthenaginians. We can raise a 4th Legion, we can expand our influence physically and diplomatically, we can improve our current settlements and we can raise a navy of no small note.

What we cannot do is invade Afrika, nor do I feel we would be prudent in seizing all the islands mentioned until we have at least TWO navies in which to support our troops on those islands.

The Republic must expand in which to ensure our future against an ever aggressive Carthage to our South, easy expansion North is my hope for the next 5 years, coupled with careful improvement of our main cities and the raising of a 4th legion and one navy.

Yes, these are NOT small tasks BUT they are achievable for the next Consul and will NOT bankrupt us or lead us into a war we cannot win now.

We do not need to focus completely on internal matters, we need to be more prudent than that and be selective in what the Republics money is spent on to ensure maximum output.

The newly liberated settlements are lower on the improvements list than our core cities, they will have to remain so until Carthage is at least pacified. A navy is high on our improvement list also, our armies need only bolstering and the addition of one Legion to see us past this next phase, we need income from all avenues as a priority. Conquest brings slaves and money into the Republic, it is not as great a cost as is being described here. Tiberius Coruncanius’s Legion is not as weak as many here advise, nor are the Gauls as strong.

The next Consul will be faced with very hard choices when it comes to spending the Republic’s funds that is sure and he can plan or commit to whatever projects he pleases but I am sure that the reality of a Carthage threat and our need to at least keep pace with them, will steer his endeavours.

Senator Augustus Verginus, if I may quote you "In the mean time, let us pluck the the easy pickings that will secure our shores and let us build our strength."

If you are discounting expanding North into Gallic held regions and discounting liberating the Islands or Carthage....

.....where are you proposing you expand?

[QUINTUS]: Having taken the time to study the manifestoes of the three present candidates for First Consul, I must express my pleasure at the clear and substantive choices we have been presented with. I would like to take this opportunity to summarise my perception of the differences in the programmes of the three candidates.

Augustus Verginius offers a period of consolidation. Peace with Carthage and Greece, if it can be obtained. The seizure of Melite, Carolis and Aleria, if Carthage is obstinate and our fleet capable. My perception is that this is a safe course of action and I have no doubt that my the Senator has the skill and Rome has the capacity to deal with any threats that may emerge.

Lucius Amelius offers a similar programme, with the addition that he intends to march north into Cisalpine Gaul. This course of action, although more risky than that of Senator Verginus, is close to what I advocated in my end-of-term report to the Senate. I have no doubt the Senator could succeed in his plan, given the tactical skills he demonstrated at the gates of Rhegium. However, I would caution against advancing north with less than a Consular army. While we may triumph when greatly outnumbered, fighting against the odds would needlessly increase our losses.

Tiberius Coruncanius offers us the prospect of an invasion of Africa, while maintaining peace with Gaul. I must confess this proposal initially astounded me in its audacity. The weakness of our fleet had led me to rule it out in my end-of-term report. And yet on reflection, I suspect it could just work. The distance between Lilybaeum and Carthage is not far and with luck a fleet of transports might traverse it without interception by the stronger Carthaginian navy. A Praetorian sized army could be landed initially and be safe against attack, then soon reinforced to Consular strength. The prospect is thrilling, although whether my excitement stems from the size of the possible rewards and the extent of the risk involved, I cannot fathom.

Senators, I hope I have not misrepresented the proposals of any of our fine candidates. If I have been accurate, then truly we are fortunate at this moment to have such clear alternatives displayed before us. We will not be choosing on personalities or petty factional loyalties, but on grand matters of state and most particularly on the level of risk we are willing to take. It will not be an easy choice and personally I confess I need further time to reflect on which course of action to endorse.

I will take time to address the issues raised by Verginus, and to answer the questions posed by Quintus.

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Originally Posted by Verginus

We do not need shipwrights? We do not need roads? We do not need auxilia? Do you hear this, fellow Senators? Senator Coruncanius believes he can fight the might of Carthage while only able to produce troops from our original three cities. Need I remind you that not a single of our new conquests is capable of produce anything but boats and agents? Even if Rome, Capua and Ancona recruit Legions and Auxilia constantly, we will be outpaced by both Punic and Gallic recruitment.

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Yes, we can be outpaced by Punic and Gallic recruitment, and that is why we go to war. If we take their cities, they can't recruit anything. If we remain idle, they will outpace us, and then attack us. Then we are going up against them with only our three provinces recruiting, but the fight is in our lands, and the discrepancy between our armies is even bigger because they had time to exploit their advantage. Imagine they had the ability to recruit two more units per quarter than we, and we started with equal armies. After one quarter, they would have two more units than us. After two quarters, four more units. After a year, eight more. In just over two years, they could have an additional consular-strength army, and that's just with 5 provinces working instead of 3. Now then, would you attack now, or wait two years to be attacked?

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Originally Posted by Verginus

As for shipwrights, does Senator Coruncanius plan to take on the Punic navy with nothing more than light warships? We might as well throw velites into melee with Spartans! If we are to be victorious on the seas, we must have powerful ships with which to defeat our enemies. As for roads, how does Senator Coruncanius expect to reinforce threatened borders? What if the Greeks were to land at Tarentum? It could take our Legions half a year or more to reach that place to defend it! Half a year more would be wasted returning to the Gallic frontier. I do not know about you, Senators, but I do not relish the idea of weakening our border with the Gauls for a day, let alone a year!

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The naval situation is not ideal, but if we wait too long, the Carthaginian navy may increase as their army could. I don't expect our fleet to engage in direct combat with the full strength of the navy of Carthage. Indeed, its primary purpose would be to support the army. But they could still win engagements against Carthage if they're numerous enough, and, as they're cheap, they could be more easily replaced than the Carthaginian ships. You say it would be like attacking Spartans with velites, but you don't specify how many velites or similarly light troops would there be. I ask you, who won at Thermopylae?

A Greek attack in Tarentum is unlikely, especially if we make peace with them, as they are busy in Illyria, so I don't understand why you are panicking. I expect to leave some garrison there, in any case.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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Certainly. I'd say you established that as something of a tradition.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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It's difficult to say outright. From an economic standpoint, mines are always useful, as are traders, although higher level ones only if there are a number of ports within reach, which is more the case in the south than in the north. The dual-purpose of roads cannot be ignored. The indirect economic effect of temples and such is valid, but I'm not sure if it's significant compared to dedicated economic buildings.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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There isn't too much value in those islands, at least for my plan of the invasion of Africa, and they would be bypassed. But there may be some value in diversionary attacks prior to the invasion of Africa. Not Malta, as it's too close to the invasion route, but Sardinia and Corsica. If the Carthaginians were to try to take them back, it would take a part of their army and much of their fleet away from our real target. And should they not want those islands back, then we have ourselves some new islands, which is never a bad thing.

Gentlemen, what we have here is an excessive case of fear-mongering.

"Rome is in danger," you cry out like parrots. "If we do not strike them they will strike us!" I have had quite enough of this!

Contrary to what some members of this house believe, the only warlike state around is our own. The Carthaginians have just lost the entire island of Sicily. Their power has been compromised. It will take some time for them to regroup. They do not threaten us. We threaten them. Likewise with Greece. Their leader, a war hawk, has been killed by us. They have also lost plenty of territories courtesy of us. They will not return.

As for Gaul. They have other problems to settle. While we have not directly given them a blow I am sure that they are fighting off the other barbarian peoples, as well as conquering the independent cities. And yet still you see them as a looming terror. Gaul is smart. They are worrying about Gaul rather than Rome.

Senators, it greatly saddens me to see your attitudes about these foreign situations. You speak as if every minor faction around us has the limitless armies like the old Persian king Darius. You also speak of our great city being the primary target of every single one of these factions. According to you, they are all determined to destroy us, no matter what the cost. Fellow Senators, I plead with you to return to Earth.

Look around at our city. A great majority of the people live in terrible poverty. Their -and our- economic situation is dire. And yet some candidates continue to aim to build the military, which is apparently the only thing worth spending money on! Gentlemen, one day your military bill is going to far outpace our economic growth, and then where will be? If war is all we care about then we are no better than those barbarians that Senator Coruncanius seems so worried about. That is why I wholeheartedly endorse Senator Augustus Verginius as the next Consul. He, at least, has his priorities straight.

Manifesto of Publius Pansa

I, Publius Pansa, stand for Consul in the year 275. Rome needs a strong leader now more then ever. Pyyrhus has been pushed aside, but in his place come blonde barbarians in the north and dark Carthiginians in the south.

Regarding Gaul: The Gauls are neutral now, but have they not a history of breaking alliances and attacking Italians? I feel a push is needed in order to give us more breathing room in the North, not to mention the natural barrier the Alps will pose. We should not go any further then the Alps however. Nor should we attack Gaul immediately. We should raise at least another legion, preferably two, before attacking Gaul. This would allow us to blitz Gaul and take all her Italian holdings before she can react.

Regarding Carthage: They lie accross the sea and are more powerful then Gaul. Why should we not attack them, you may ask. The answer lies in the facts, because they are accross the sea and are more powerful then Gaul. We do not have nearly a strong enough navy to launch troops into Africa. Not to mention the lack of troops themselves. We cannot afford to weaken the south of Italy any more then it already is. So I promise you, I will strengthen the garrisons of southern Italy, and promote naval buildings in Syracuse and Tarentum. Let Carthage sail towards us and fight, it will be in our lands and on our terms.

Regarding Greece: Although getting a peace with these people may seem neccessary to some, I say let them fight with Illyria, and let us hold our hostilities with them. The enemy of my emeny is my friend, so hopefully the Illyrians will not decide they have intrests in Patavium before we can get there.


Now I shall answer any questions you may have:

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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I certainly agree. There are many here in thsi house willing and able to server as First Consul. This is a Republic after all, and I shall avoid running again. If though, as Cincinnatus once did, we are need of a leader, I hope both you and I and every member of this house is willing to take up the sword and lead in times of trouble.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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Where neccessary, we should build traders. These promote economic growth, and population as well. Unless I am very much mistaken, all of our current holdings have a sea border, so a trader will help overseas and land trade alike. At your suggestion, Quintus, I will built sea-buildings in Syracuse and Tarentum, since these are apparently the best for ship-building.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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I do not think this is neccessary or wise. Why weaken our current holdings for lands which we won't be able to hold onto anyways? Carthage will eaasily be able to take them back and certainly will blockade the ports, so they are of little value to us.

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According to you, they are all determined to destroy us, no matter what the cost.

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GeneralHankerchief, if we are not cautious and do not suspect everyone, then we will be destroyed. He does not stirke first is first struck, and if we rule Rome assuming Carthage and Gaul and Greece are all out there to be our friends and allies, we are fools. Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

This empire does not need to go to war out of fear of being outpaced or attacked by stronger foes. No I believe we are quite safe in our position.

This empire must go to war to expand its income. Our current income is not nearly enough to support such large buildings efforts as are proposed. Nor is it large enough to support such large fleets as are proposed.

And so we must gain more land not out of fear or anything as stupid as that but out of the need to gain more gold.

Let me begin by giving thanks to Jupiter Capitolinus for granting to Quintus and the Republic such glorious gains
in the past five years. I cannot think that Jupiter encourages us with these successes to discourage us from continuing
a congruent course of action. I believe His will is quite to the contrary.

It appears that Augustus Verginius, & Lucius Amelius offer us variations on a theme. Both seek to grow our economy by
sending Diplomats to sue for peace with our enemies thereby buying time to build our strength. Both seek extraterritorial
nuggets to augment our internal growth with plunder and act as the wetstone for the fighting edged of the legions. Prudent,
it would appear. Little danger in either of those courses of action. Prudence often makes the difference between glory
and disaster. It is the watch word of the sagacious elders who have seen much and can attest to its benefits.

I have not come before you to argue against Prudence my brothers. I do however worry that Prudence has been mistaken.
How easily Indecision and Timidity come before us clothed in the robes of Prudence. A much better speaker than this humble
Patrician once said "In the way of every great and noble enterprise stands the desire for safety." We are tasked with
more than just the safety of this mighty Republic. We are tasked with the complete annihilation of our enemies. Jupiter
demands it!

The opportunity Quintus Victor has handed to this Republic cannot be passed over. Sicily is a dagger pointed at the heart
of the Carthaginians. From Lilybaeum in the far west a crossing to Afrika is certainly feasible with only a couple of more
ships. This plans brilliance is in its perceived difficulty. The greedy Phoenicians will never remotely suspect such thing.
Perhaps some feints at the islands that Augustus Verginius wants to conquer may be prudent to ensure that they will
never suspect our true goal.

Romulus did not rule this city because he made peace with his brother. Brutus did not rescue us from Tyranny with sound
economic policy. Please Senators, Brothers, Romans, I implore you to cast your vote for Tiberius Coruncanius.

Honored senators,

I have been occupied with organizing the governing of our new conquests and I am smeared behind my back ! Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) has the audacity to accuse me and senator Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) of treason ! I will not stand for these allegations. No man can claim me to ever have put my own good before that of the Roman people ! He further insinuates that I am the slave of our traders and want to go to war to fill their pockets.

I spit on these allegations !

Not only are they vile in nature, but also a clear demonstration that senator Augustus Verginus lacks the most basic understanding of the workings of our economy, which all of us are in agreement, is in dire need of improvement. Clearly, he is the man of the hour (*sarcasm*). It is well know I have a good relationship with our traders and it is the people that profit from it. The profits generated by our merchants are the only reason our people are not starving to death right now, with our budget stretched to the very limit. Instead of being villified by senator Augustus Verginus, the merchants should be praised and encouraged as much as possible. You are all men of rank, so I will not continue this explanation, as you hopefully are blessed with a better understanding of finance than this 'honored' senator.

As to the charge that the raids and possible capture of the Cartheginian islands are a major drain on our strained finances, that is another obvious misconstruction of reality. The Carthegian towns on these islands are very lightly garrisoned and can be taken by lightning raids by a force as small as 4 maniples and 4 ships to transport them. These towns are also well developed, with lucrative ports and markets, which our own towns are sadly lacking.
In the worst case scenario, even if we only held on of these towns for a single season, we would still have gained, as the the profits of just one season would pay for the whole cost of fitting out the raid. I suspect however, that the Cartheginians will give up on the islands once we capture them and instead concentrate on their colonies in Spain instead. Even if they do not, we will have been fighting them on their soil instead of on our own. Which do you think our people would prefer ?

Now I will answer the questions posed to me by consul Quintus :

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Originally Posted by econ21

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

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I would think this a logical assumption, it had not even crossed my mind to stand for re-election. If the senate called on me to stand for office I would of course comply.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

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Our most pressing need is roads and traders, followed by mines and markets. Roads are absolutely vital military, and also produce trade. The traders are cheap to build and I will build these when I lack the funds to build markets or mines. I might build several temples in towns which do not have an italian culture to surpress unrest.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

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I believe I have answered this question in detail just now.

Finally, I will further clarify my position on Cispine Gaul. The three minor town are relatively unimportant, except for Jenuensis, which might become a valuable port town in the future. The key here is Patavium, which is a walled town of immense strategic importance. We need it, it is as simple as that. The Gauls are not be trusted, and they are too near Rome to give me a good night's rest as I was campaigning in the south with my family at home in Rome. What would be a better place to fight an invader ? At the unwalled town of Arminium, a stone's throw away from Rome itself ? Or in Cispine Gaul, which is perhaps the most easily defended stretch of land in Europe ? It is now held by the weak Gauls, who can be dislogded easily, but what if Macedon or Greece, or even Carthage strikes there before us ? We would be in a very dangerous strategic situation. I believe in defense in depth. We must strike them the moment we are ready.

Finally, I would discuss the strategy of senator Tiberius Coruncanius who seems to have a most vocal following. What strikes me most about these followers of him, is that they applaud him wildly, and then critize his strategy ? :stupido2: It seems to me his bold, but completely unrealistic, plans of African conquest stir the hearts of these men, and then a little later their brains catch up with them. I would advise these men to listen to their minds a bit more. Then perhaps they will realize that my strategy is the one their minds agree with and they will not let their hearts carry this nation into folly.

Lastly, I would welcome Publius Pansa as a candidate in this election.

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Originally Posted by Braden

If you are discounting expanding North into Gallic held regions and discounting liberating the Islands or Carthage....

.....where are you proposing you expand?

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Senator, if you will re-read my statements, including my manifesto, you will see that I have, at all times, specifically stated that I would annex the Carthaginian islands if war continues. I believe that Senator Lucius Aemilius has made a similar mistake in interpreting my words.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

If we remain idle, they will outpace us, and then attack us. Then we are going up against them with only our three provinces recruiting, but the fight is in our lands, and the discrepancy between our armies is even bigger because they had time to exploit their advantage.

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Yet I do not propose to continue recruiting from only three provinces. I plan to invest heavily in auxilia training to allow many of our newly allied Italian provinces to contribute their strength to the fight. In the meantime, I shall continue to build with the three available training centers and continue to strengthen the Gallic border. By doing so I will not lose out on one single recruit that you would otherwise be able to contribute, yet I will also maintain the formal truce on our northern border, allowing our Italian allies the maximum amount of time to prepare so that we may count on their full support when war comes. You, on the otherhand, will need to divert nearly all recruiting in our three current provinces to support your invasion of Africa. You will leave the Gallic border weak and Rome vulnerable for the sake of Punic plunder.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

I ask you, who won at Thermopylae?

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Why, Senator... the answer to that would be the Persians.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I have, at all times, specifically stated that I would annex the Carthaginian islands if war continues.

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If I may ask, Senator, how will oyu take the islands from the Carthaginians when only one unit can fit on each boat, and how will you hold on to them? Even still, what good are they to Rome if Carthage will surely blockade the ports? Their farm-land is sub par, their importance comes from trade. How will you trade if the ports are blocked?

[QUINTUS]: I cannot speak for my former Tribune, Senator Verginius, but I would like to address the issue of the outlying islands held by Carthage.

I believe it is a simple matter to take them with only our present 3 ships. Give me a cohort of hastati and one of principes, and I will take them with very little loss of life. A couple of lesser formations can then garrison each one, while I move on to the next target.

We have the advantage that both Malta and [edit:] Corsica lie close to our ports and so our fleets need not be exposed to enemy naval interception. I believe there is a land-bridge between Corsica and Sardinia.

It is possible that Carthage may seek to blockade them or even launch a sea-borne invasion to retake them, but I doubt they will make a sustained effort. Even in the worst case, I cannot see us losing more than a minor garrison.

Noble Senator, I think you are referring to Corsica..

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Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius

Honored senators,

I have been occupied with organizing the governing of our new conquests and I am smeared behind my back ! Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) has the audacity to accuse me and senator Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) of treason ! I will not stand for these allegations. No man can claim me to ever have put my own good before that of the Roman people ! He further insinuates that I am the slave of our traders and want to go to war to fill their pockets.

I spit on these allegations !

Not only are they vile in nature, but also a clear demonstration that senator Augustus Verginus lacks the most basic understanding of the workings of our economy, which all of us are in agreement, is in dire need of improvement. Clearly, he is the man of the hour (*sarcasm*). It is well know I have a good relationship with our traders and it is the people that profit from it. The profits generated by our merchants are the only reason our people are not starving to death right now, with our budget stretched to the very limit. Instead of being villified by senator Augustus Verginus, the merchants should be praised and encouraged as much as possible. You are all men of rank, so I will not continue this explanation, as you hopefully are blessed with a better understanding of finance than this 'honored' senator.

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Your arrogance knows no bounds. The reason you are friends with the traders is because they are helping you to amass wealth. You, in return, will help gain them property in the lands, which, you, as consul, will conquer. Such corrupt dealings are appalling for a Roman senator, much more so for a potential consul.

I have stated that we must be peaceful. Invading Africa is madness, however, I would not object on this, if two conditions are met:

I.) That the consul himself led the invasion, with one legion only.
II.) That no other general partake in the invasion.

Thus, if the invasion is a failure, it shall be the consul's fault; if he dies, then no one will mourn for his foolishness.

Tell me, Antio, if you would perhaps prefer that I invade Africa by myself?

I care little for your arbitrary challenges or conditions. I intend to invade with a full consular army, and whatever other support forces necessary. I intend to ensure victory, not set limitations and gamble for it. I feel we are very lucky that you decided to become a diplomat and not a soldier.

[House Speaker]

Senators. In your bickering you have forgotten the true purpose of these sessions. Yes debate is necessary but we are here to make motions to guide the next Consul. This session is without point if we fail to do so.

So if you have something you would like to be done, a goal to achieve or a guideline to be met or a restriction to be adhered to, then it is best for you to propose a motion so that it may become law. Debate does not make law.

For those candidates wishing to invade Gaul it may to your advantage to propose a motion for the senate to approve the declaration of war. Otherwise you may find yourself with little to do if you were to gain the position.

To the candidates. You may lose the election but you can still truly win if motions regarding your own course of action are passed.

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Originally Posted by Glaucus

If I may ask, Senator, how will oyu take the islands from the Carthaginians when only one unit can fit on each boat, and how will you hold on to them? Even still, what good are they to Rome if Carthage will surely blockade the ports? Their farm-land is sub par, their importance comes from trade. How will you trade if the ports are blocked?

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An excellent point, which is why I have continuously emphasized the need to expand our naval power. This has been one part of my development agenda from the very beginning, to include the continued construction of facilities to allow the launching of powerful vessels in addition to our current light weight design, something that Senator Coruncanius claims we do not need. While I believe Senator Quintus' statements that he could take each settlement with only two cohorts, we could quickly assemble a fleet of light warships capable of landing nearly an entire legion. Senator Quintus, who is, in my opinion, the only qualified man for the job, could easily subdue both islands and garrison the towns with this force. While this is being accomplished naval developments will continue as will research into more advanced hull designs. It is possible that these ports may suffer under Punic blockade for a short time, but our continued expansion of the fleet and its proximity to reinforcements in home waters would quickly prevail.

Some may deem this an excessive expenditure for a candidate so concerned with domestic development. To them I ask, will Carthage refrain from blockading our current ports if we leave them be? No, brothers. We all know we need a navy. We all know we need a strong navy. Faithful to my word, I will build such a force and with it we can keep the Punic ships at bay. Corsica, Sardinia and Malta are closer to our territorial waters than Punic ones. We can reinforce and repair our fleets faster than the enemy and in these areas we can and will prevail.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Tell me, Antio, if you would perhaps prefer that I invade Africa by myself?

I care little for your arbitrary challenges or conditions. I intend to invade with a full consular army, and whatever other support forces necessary. I intend to ensure victory, not set limitations and gamble for it. I feel we are very lucky that you decided to become a diplomat and not a soldier.

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I do favour expansion, however, Rome must rest been conquests. An endless succession of wars will only serve to weaken the provinces, and incur the wrath of all the other powers.

Remember our neighbours the Samnites, did it not take several wars to defeat them? How many more wars will we have to fight to subdue Carthage, who is larger, richer, and more powerful than they.

I was appointed diplomat by Consul Quintus. I have been faithfully doing my duty in negotiating with Rome's neighbours.

You have done well, in your military command. However, do not be rash and seek to achieve more than you can.

Senators, I think it is time that we express our opinions once more on the three regions bordering us.

Africa
Cisalpine Gaul
Illyria-Greece

I, for one, think expansion ought to wait for 5 years. We can consolidate our gains, and improve the economy. Then, the next consul can lead Rome's legions to victory over her enemies!

I propose Motion #16

MOTION #16: This house moves that a senator be appointed historian of the republic, and record the our glorious history.

Senator Publius Pansa,

I have but one question I feel:

Will you, if finances allow, commit to build roads in our states? I feel that the benefits of roads are perhaps even greater than traders but coupled with traders we will have great benefits indeed.

Senators, at this point I now feel torn by loyalties. On one side I have my long standing friendship and support for Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, however, whilst I agree with virtually all of his manifesto I do not agree with his continued pledge to assault Afrika directly……and now Senator Publius Pansa has entered the field with a pledge virtually identical to my own thoughts of what should occur during the next Consular session.

I am dearly sorry Tiberius, friend, I would not ask you to compromise your vision for my behalf and I know you would not ask me to support someone who’s plans do not agree with what I feel is best for the Republic……..therefore, I must withdraw my support for Senator Tiberius Coruncanius and place my house banner behind Senator Publius Pansa’s seat.

My own feelings are that the Republic must consolidate and build upon the gains First Consul Quintus gave us, but we must also not just sit back and do nothing else lest we loose the upper hand against our greatest enemy Carthage.

Senator Publius Pansa has committed to building up to two more Legions and to strike fast and true against Cisapline Gaul and secure our borders against the Alps. I can only fully support this course of action as the best balance between Action and Consolidation.

The Republic will gain more territory and the Legions we will need against Carthage, whilst being able to financially support construction of some key buildings and infrastructure. I feel that adventures in “Island hopping” are folly until we have had time to build our navy sufficiently so that we can transport a full Legion within one flotilla to support any Islands we liberate, of course, at the same time we’d need such a Legion free to do this…again we do not have this at this time and will require time and coin to build one.

I believe that Senator Publius Pansa, will allow us this time, coin and action in his tenure. I also believe that it will be the task of the Consul who follows the next one to invade Afrika and I will support that venture at that point.

I would like the Senate to put a Motion forward authorising War against the Gauls but I fear the Scribes have exhausted all the room available for such a motion and it will have to be placed as an emergency motion after the elections……assuming Senator Publius Pansa gains the Senates support.

I must agree with Senators Verginius and Antio. The Carthaginian island colonies are lightly defended, and we should take advantage of this fact to deal them a blow. It is not a matter of economy, as Carthage will surely blockade their ports and send in soldiers. No, the victory in capturing these island colonies will be more subtle. We will gain a morale boost, having captured Carthaginian lands so easily and quickly. We will also earn a little bit of money from trade until the Phoenicans regroup their fleet and blockade the islands. Income can also be made from farmland and trading within the islands. We will also deny the Carthaginians this income, dealing their economy a blow. Finally, should the Carthaginians choose to send in a massive force to retake the islands, so be it. Their navy and armies will be out conquering the insignificant islands, while ours will be free to attack the Carthaginian heart at Africa, should the next consul choose to do so.

Of course, to manage to conquer their colonies while preparing an invasion force will require patience on the next consul's behalf, and, surely, our economy must be upgraded to finance the raising of the invasion force. When I use the term invasion force, I do not mean merely building a land army. I also propose to build a fleet as well, to contest Carthage's and divide their empire.

Of course, should the senate disagree to attack Africa, we could always strike Iberian Carthage instead. It would probably be lightly defended, and the Carthaginians in Iberia will most likely have their hands full fighting the Iberian barbarians, leaving their provinces vulnerable to Roman occupation. Again, this is to leave the Carthaginians weaker, so the eventual destruction of their Republic will be easier for us.

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Originally Posted by shifty157

For those candidates wishing to invade Gaul it may to your advantage to propose a motion for the senate to approve the declaration of war. Otherwise you may find yourself with little to do if you were to gain the position.

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Several such motions have already been proposed.
I think motion#16 is already being handled by the senate scribes and the senate librarian. Perhaps the senator Sextus Antio would like to withdraw his motion ?

I think not alienating all of our neighbors would be healthy for our economy.

Motion 17: This house mandates the Consul to train a second diplomat. That diplomat is to attempt to make peace with Greece, as well as try to get trade rights with them. This is to be attempted within the next Consul's reign.

I am willing to expand my

MOTION #8: An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).
Proposer: Lucius Amelius (DDW)
Seconder: Anon (by influence)

to include an offer of trade rights (as I intended to offer that anyway, as can be read in my manifesto), or GeneralHankerchief could withdraw his motion #17. I advise the senators to check the motions already proposed to see if they are not already proposed (post#1 of this thread, the vestibule). Also the last motion filed is #10.

May I respectfully request of the Senate what am I to do? I am in the plains of Parthia, and I fear that once you have hired another diplomat, you shall ignore me, and shall leave leave me to grow old and amongst barbarians.

MOTION #11: This house moves that we send Tiberius Coruncanius to Africa with one legion only, and that he must not return until he has taken the following settlements: Carthago, Utica, Hippo Regius, Hadrumentum, and Thapsus, and must have taken thm in 5 years. He may not receive reinforcements until he has been there for 3 full years.

If Tiberius Coruncanius agrees to this, I Sextus Antio, shall vote for him as consul. Tiberius Coruncanius has expressed his intention of invading Africa, and now this enables the Senate to endorse his invasion.

Senator Sextus Antio, fear not. I will endevour to make it my task to ensure you are given a new assignment.

However, it is the "lot" of a Roman Diplomat to have to put up with the Barbarians as they surround us......what are your feelings about a journey to Iberia?

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The deadline for submitting motions is 6pm today. However, our scribes can only arrange votes for 14 motions and we are almost at that now.

I have merged the two motions on peace with Greece.

Senator Antio, I have numbered your motion about a historian as eleven. If you do not wish to withdraw it, I will renumber your motion about Carthage to #12.

I have also received a motion from Quintus. He notes that an army may enter our territory and menace a town that we cannot defend. He therefore proposes that the First Consul be able to immediately intercept such invaders before they are able to strike us first. He is thinking particularly of the defences in the north, where our border legion could not reach Arretium in time to save it, but could intercept a Gaulish incursion before it reached that settlement.

MOTION #13: This house authorises the First Consul to declar war on any army entering our territory, if he deems it necessary for the defense of the Republic.
Proposer: Quintus (econ21)
Seconder: Anon (by influence)

I wish to congratulate senator Quintus on his sharp insight concerning motion#13. This will prevent accusations in the Senate and free the first consul in his actions. Still, I feel I say I expect a strong military presence on our borders. If a first consul leaves his borders wide open in order to encourage an act of war I will not hesitate to impeach him for 'warmongering'.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The deadline for nomination of candidates for First Consul and for proposing motions has now passed. Voting will begin imminently. Debate may of course continue freely.

I wish to notify my support for my noble college Augustus Verginus, I deem his ideas best for our noble republic, I would however like to quote him on certain issues - which I would like him to expand on..

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Yet, despite these successes, our future remains uncertain. ..... No plans for the conversion of any of the Sicilian provinces or any of the Greek cities has yet been layed.

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Well I think now would be a good time to make your plans, and make them public. I would like to know wat happens to these newly conquered provinces, as they will eventually provide much of our trade revenue.

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Despite all of this, some Senators yet push for war with Gaul. I ask you, brothers, war for what end? War with what armies? We have achieved much, yet we have much still to achieve. We must secure our new acquisitions, ensure that their men are organized so as to provide auxiliaries for our Legions, improve provincial infrastructure and economics, and raise further Legions to secure our borders and to prepare for future conquests.

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Spoken like a true Roman ! We do not seek war, we merely have the means to fight an expansive defensive war*winks*.

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Now, I know some Senators will undoubtedly say we can do both at once. Perhaps we can, but perhaps we will make ourselves vulnerable. Is five years such a long time to wait? ....... In such an event, options may become available to make expeditions to the Carthaginian island cities of Melite, Caralis, and Aleria. These are mere extensions of our existing conflict with the Punic nation.

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Are costly expeditions like these necessary ? Do we even have the fleets to launch these attacks, and keep order in the newly conquered provinces. And who will govern these provinces ?

I don't believe in conquering far away Punic territory, if we aim to cripple Carthage, we must take their main cities, namely Carthage and Hadrumentum.
Why waste a costly and risky sail to these provinces of which we gain no immediate benefits. Surely we could better spend our ships and soldiers to wage a full scale war against Carthage itself, instead of taking their backwater provinces of Caralis and Aleria ?

Now I would like to compare your Manifesto to the ones of the other candidates....

Senator Tiberius Coruncanius proposes to build a navy, an idea I sympathize with, but do not read in your manifesto Verginius, which in my opinion is a shame.

Also, Verginius, I haven't read anything of your plans to secure our northern borders. If you did mention this, would you care to do this again, just to humor me...

As for my next query I ask you this, how will you revive our economy, which Lucius described as and I quote '' [bringing our] economy out of its sorry state ''.

Do you agree with this statement Senator, or do you not ?

My last question senator is this one: do you agree with senator Pansa's comments concerning the Greeks, Illyrians and other neighboring ''sovereign'' countries, or do you not, and why did you answer the way you did?

:balloon2:

I wish to also notify my support for my noble college Augustus Verginus.

Fellow senators now is not a time to open up new theatres of war. We are already fighting on two fronts. If we declare war on the Gauls we will be surrounded by enemies. How can we survive if we are having the air choked out of us.

We should take this time to prepare to future conflicts. You all know they will come. Can you all honestly see the Greeks and Carthage allowing us to take the southern cities with such ease.

We need to defend these, we need a fleet and an enlarged army. Once we have these then YES we can take the war to our enemys. The Greeks are weak we should ally ourselves with their enemies.

The enemies of our enemies are our friends. I say leave Carthage to lick her wounds and once we have our army we should invade Greece and exterminate her.

The world should learn to fear us Romans, this can only be done by enslavement and exterminate. We cannot merely occupy cities and hope to earn the populations love. We must force our will on our enemies or die trying.

I wonder if my fellow senators have the stomach for such things, maybe I should have stood for office myself.

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Originally Posted by ShadesWolf

We must force our will on our enemies or die trying.

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Illustrious Senator, were you fathered in far off Sarmatia by a barbarian king? Are you mad? The answer to one of these must be yes, for that is not a Roman way of thinking. We fight when we must, or against those who asked for it. The Gauls are barbarians, no excuse is needed for civilizing them. The Greeks are a modern people, why should we continue to fight them? Tell me, Senator, would you rather live next to a Gaulic barbarian or a Greek scholar?

Senators, I will keep it short: there is only one Roman who knows what's best for our Glorious Republic. Lucius Aemilius is our man. Seems that he is the only Roman with at least a tiny bit of intelligence who realises that we should kick the Gauls' hairy butts over the Alps! I have talked to my men, I have talked to my bodyguards, I know what our brave soldiers want. We do not care about "consolidating" territory. We do not care about economy. We, soldiers, want to show what we are capable of. Those stinky Gauls are soiling our fine Italian lands; they are ruining our future farmlands. We will not accept this. Let's kick 'em out. I say: vote Lucius Aemilius.
I, Titus Vatinius, have spoken.

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

Well I think now would be a good time to make your plans, and make them public. I would like to know wat happens to these newly conquered provinces, as they will eventually provide much of our trade revenue.

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It is my firm belief that a protracted war with Carthage is unavoidable, even if hostilities cease or are lukewarm for the next decade. I do not believe that we will ever be able to establish dominance in Africa without being able to raise armies directly from the Sicilian provinces. Thus, in Sicily my priorities will be to being training these new allies to provide us with Auxiliaries, in addition to any economic infrastructure that would benefit us. I see less of a need for Auxiliaries in the far southern Greek provinces, but they are valuable trading provinces and investments will be required in that area. Elsewhere, our northern provinces bordering Gaul must also be made ready to provide Auxiliaries in the event of an attack by the unwashed barbarians. Finally, our most prominent port cities must receive support so as to enable construction of larger, more powerful warships.

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Are costly expeditions like these necessary ? Do we even have the fleets to launch these attacks, and keep order in the newly conquered provinces. And who will govern these provinces ?

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No, I do not believe they are necessary. However, they are bases for Punic fleets and can act as valuable trading ports, further increasing our treasury. They are worth siezing if such a taking can be had without risk. No, we do not currently have the fleets to launch these attacks. For this reason I do not propose to attempt an expedition immediately. I would prefer to wait until sufficient naval forces are constructed to allow for the safe transportation and protection of up to a full Legion. The question of governance is beyond my means to answer effectively. If sufficient governors are available, they would be allocated to the provinces once annexed. However, I would expect that they would have to be supervised by the local garrison captain for some time before notable Romans step forward for the position. That said, it would be my intention to request that Senator Quintus personally lead any expedition to Caralis and Aleria. He could certainly provide at least short-term governance for those areas before going on to other areas.

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I don't believe in conquering far away Punic territory, if we aim to cripple Carthage, we must take their main cities, namely Carthage and Hadrumentum.
Why waste a costly and risky sail to these provinces of which we gain no immediate benefits. Surely we could better spend our ships and soldiers to wage a full scale war against Carthage itself, instead of taking their backwater provinces of Caralis and Aleria ?

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I agree, but I do not believe that we are yet strong enough to maintain a full scale invasion of Africa. Foremost I believe in building our strength for the coming conflict so that we will have the strength to land in force at the heart of their territory. My aspirations for the Punic islands are simply because I believe it is possible to sieze them with little cost to ourselves, both increasing our security from Punic fleets and adding to our Treasury. If events resolve in such a way as to make the siezure of these islands difficult or otherwise risky, I would not do so.

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Senator Tiberius Coruncanius proposes to build a navy, an idea I sympathize with, but do not read in your manifesto Verginius, which in my opinion is a shame.

Also, Verginius, I haven't read anything of your plans to secure our northern borders. If you did mention this, would you care to do this again, just to humor me...

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You are correct that I failed to address these issues in my manifesto. I confess that I did not anticipate the wide range of issues that this body would want information on and did not elaborate sufficiently at the time. As you can see though, it is my intention to build a naval force strong enough to keep our ports free of blockade and to enable the transportation of large armies to foriegn lands. I also wish to increase the quality of our port facilities to enable construction of better hull designs.

As for the Gallic border, I intend to send spies into Cisalpine Gaul to ensure that no barbarian army can catch us unawares. In addition, the northern Legion will be brought to full strength and it will be joined by a second Legion in a seperate fort. I would attempt to provide smaller outposts and further reinforcements if a Gallic buildup made them necessary. It would be my ultimate goal to develop a force strong enough to strike deep into their territory and secure the Alpine passes if future Consuls decided to do so.

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As for my next query I ask you this, how will you revive our economy, which Lucius described as and I quote '' [bringing our] economy out of its sorry state''.

Do you agree with this statement Senator, or do you not?

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I do not believe that our economy is in a sorry state, but I do believe that it needs to be improved. We have recently conquered a large area and we simply need time to develop it. It is simply a question of patience and investment. There is no risk in this, there is simple fact.

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My last question senator is this one: do you agree with senator Pansa's comments concerning the Greeks, Illyrians and other neighboring ''sovereign'' countries, or do you not, and why did you answer the way you did?

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The Greeks have shown their evil intents towards us and the Illyrians are nothing more than semi-washed Gauls. I say let them fight each other. Let them weaken each other. We shall deal with them soon enough. However, it seems obvious that the Greeks will divert at least some of their attention to us if we maintain this conflict. Let us make peace, thus letting them get fully involved in a deep conflict with the Illyrians or possibly the Macedonians. In the end, we will envelop winner and loser alike... if the Senate so decides, of course.

I do hope I have sufficiently answered your questions for now. I shall respond to the statements of others who came after you in time, however I have business at home to attend to and these queries can be time consuming. I shall respond later in the evening to any other inquiries, you have my word.

[QUINTUS]: Senators, after some deliberation, I have decided to abstain from voting in the election for First Consul. I will also vote on motions in such a way as to maximise his freedom, but abstain from those covering contentious issues (such as a declaration of war on Gaul). My intention is to allow the rest of the Senate to determine the future of our Republic, free from any undue influence on my part. Perhaps at a later date, some emergency will arise that will lead me to lobby for some particular response. But for now, I am content to acquiesce to the will of the rest of the Senate.

In truth, I believe that our Republic is in an extremely strong and secure position. We are not impelled to act in one way or another. I believe the clearly differentiated manifestoes of the candidates are all viable and would benefit the Republic in one way or another. While my sword-arm might encourage me to support one rather than another, I do not wish to browbeat the Senate into a course of action that most of its active participants would oppose.

I also wish to reaffirm that I stand ready, eager to serve on the field of battle for whoever of our fine candidates is elected First Consul.

We ought not to invade Africa. Tiberius Coruncanius has expressed that we invade Africa. I proposed a compromising motion, but this it seems, will not be passed. I urge the next consul not to invade Africa until we have secured eastern Iberia.

Illustrious Senator, my parentage is of no concern to you. All you need to know I was born a Roman, I will die a Roman

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Originally Posted by Glaucus

Tell me, Senator, would you rather live next to a Gaulic barbarian or a Greek scholar?

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I would prefer to live next to a Roman, The hairy Gauls will come, we should wait for this opportunity rather than forcing the issue. When they come we will send them packing and take thier lands.

As for the Greek scholar, his days are over, we should make friends of his enemies, and when WE are ready, we should take his lands and exterminate him. Do not forget we did not ask for the war with the Greek, why should we beg for peace. If he wants peace, then let him come to us and we will give him our terms.....

Be not not hasty senator, the Greeks have culture, though they are are the most dishonest and treacherous race, cultural cities like Athens ought to be spared bloodshed. However, those that are barbaric, by all means destroy.

All Greeks are barbaric, so us Romans should show our superiority, and spare the Greeks death. They can work for us as slaves, which would be far more productive than the destruction of their peoples. However, if merely occupied, they will be too arrogant for our militia to deal with, and so this is no longer an option.

Anyway, let us get back to events closer to home. The ideas put forward by Verginus seem quite solid and practical. The Italian states can be improved economically by now, while Sicily can be transformed into our troop recruiting base for the upcoming battles in this Punic War.

Have you no admiration of art? The Greeks may not be greater than Romans, but their art is far better than anything we have. All Greeks hate Rome, and for that, they must and will be punished. But there is no need to destroy the artworks.

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

But there is no need to destroy the artworks.

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Indeed, I have enough room where I live for those. No need to destroy them.

:balloon2:

May I be the first to congratulate Senator Lucius Aemilius on his election to the Consulship. May the Gods smile upon you and bless you with a prosperous and successful reign.

Ay, senator Lucius Aemilius will be a worthy consul. And now I should go back to Sicily, my men need me!

Honored senators,

It is with humility I accept this great honour you bestow upon me. I will do my utmost to do justice to your confidence in me. I must say, with such distinguished senators running for office alongside me, I had not counted on winning this election.

Feelings have run high during the deliberations running up to this election, as is only proper, given the immense responsiblity the office of consul represents. I myself have lost my temper on the senate floor and for this I offer my apologies to this house. Let me be frank in saying that I have no animosity toward any of my fellow candidates. They are all great and respected men of our country and I have no doubt they will one day carry the burdens of this office themselves.

I see the most division in this house has been created by the question of going to war with Gaul. You all know me as a peaceful man, and it is not lightly I counseld you to take this step. If you remember, I was one of those who argued against war with powerful Carthage. Consul Quintus proved that that war could be won decisively in Sicily, to my great relief, but you understand I do not take this step lightly. I only desire Cispine Gaul because it is vital for our nation strategically and rest assured, I will not strike against them untill I am certain of victory. Now that this house has come to this decision, I beg you to stand behind me as one man. We must not let ourselves be divided by internal struggle !

As to who should be appointed historian of the republic, I myself would recommend senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow), who has already served us excellently as the resident Senate Librarian. I will not force him into to position, but I offer it to him out of respect for his achievements. I also ask other senators to volunteer for this duty should senator Augustus Verginus decline. We all know he is already overworked by this house.

Now, my fellow senators, I must immediately get to work, as there is much to be done.

Hail Rome !

[QUINTUS]: Let me belatedly congratulate First Consul Lucius Aemilius on his success. I am particularly pleased to note that the motions passed by the Senate are largely in accord with the First Consul's manifesto. Sir, the Senate does indeed stand behind you!

Consul Lucius Aemilius, may I humbly request that you move me from Paestum back to Rome so that I may continue my studies at the Academy?

Senator Amulius Coruncanius,

I regret to inform you that you are currently stationed in Tarentum to help control the rebellious Greeks. This was necessary to allow me to move troops around. I have taken note of your wishes and will try to relocate you as soon as I have a replacement for your position. I will move you to Syracuse instead of Rome. I need a governor there and that city also has an academy.

Sincerely,
First consul Lucius Aemilus

Out of character :
Note that this is a bit of problem for me. As generals need to hang out in the field all year long in order to get promoted and there are few sons available under 20. The only ones expendable are the students. I don't like to move generals in and our of cities all the time, I feel that is too unrealistic and it is a hassle. Soon the reorganization will be complete and I will have enough garrison forces to move everyone freely and still get some taxes in our coffers.

Edit : Well, it seems getting you to Rome was easier than getting you to Syracuse, so there you are now.