The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

I also cannot see a victory in the East if by “victory” you mean the destruction of Selucia. Such a victory I do not see for many, many years.

We can attain victory though if a “victory” consists of preventing our lands from being pillaged by the Selucids, we must ensure we have sufficient manpower to repel the Selucids then we can see what manpower we can bring to bare against Carthage.

Like you, and indeed the new Consul, I acknowledge that Carthage is a great threat and must be dealt with completely. However, don’t believe we have sufficient men to man such an expedition.

Granted, perhaps the out-going Consul has played up our “lack of funds” a little but with very nessassary building projects going unstarted because we only have a surplus of 10,000 denarii each season we cannot afford the required funds for a conquest of Carthage.

No matter what funds it will provide us, the simple fact is that if we are to keep our cities free from open Revolt then we have to invest in them and if we do this we do not have enough funds to raise the troops that would be required for a proper invasion of Carthage.

Suffice to say Senator Lucius, that all we can afford at this time is only the expeditionary invasion of Afrika. Truth is, it pains me as well but it is all we can achieve for now.

We do not need to withdraw from the East, all we need is time to assemble a properly formed invasion force.

I am glad that you have retained your good humour with regards the other peoples of the world though, even at my age I have long since lost all hope that ANY would forge an alliance with us.

I have also noted a great many brigand warbands mentioned to me by the couriers and second your call for someone to deal with them with urgency for they will be having a very great effect on our revenue.

As for my Grandfather, I am shocked at the derision spoken by you. Certainly you cannot compare the Republic at its beginning to what it is today and hence I am surprised that a man of such age and wisdom as you would attempt to do so.

Grandfather, the Republic has grown to such an extent since Quintus’s time. Pyrrhus was but one enemy, the only one we had on that day, now we have many enemies and a great many number of cities to run and citizens to please. If you inflate the “crisis” of that time and compare them fairly I am sure you will appreciate that our troubles now are at least equal to those times whilst being perhaps too abstract to appreciate fully.

And rest assured, Quintus’s deeds are well counted in the Academes’ and his actions are counted high above with those of Romulus even. He is still held in awe by the students and his tactics taught with vigour.

A messenger enters the senate floor and proudly presents a package to Servius's clerk. Opening it, the clerk smiles broadly and begins, enthusiastically, to adress the senate.

"Senators! I am proud to present you with the first message from our consul abroad!

Senators,
I am deeply gratified to hear of your choice to elect me as the next consul. You all have my promise, these next five years will be ones of a powerful resurgance in Roman might. Not just militarily either, no. These last few years have been hard on Roman coffers and our favor in the eyes of the gods. But Rome will become rich again, and the gods will see the folly in their brief divergance from Roman support.

I'm sure you have already determined, judging from this letter and my knowledge of the consular election results, that Lepcis Magna has fallen. And your assumptions would be correct. Though not large enough of an endeavour to really merit a battle report for our tactical libraries, I will provide a brief summary of the expedition.

We landed at midday on the shores just west of the city, the fleet given orders to head to port and blockade it so that there would be no escapees by way of the sea, we waited out the greater portion of the day, and were able to procure the services of some numidians discontented by Carthy rule for a small sum. Skirmishers, but useful none the less. With the city's meager defences concentrated on calming the citizenry's panic over the blockade, we were able to approach the city from the rear of their governmental building. When nightfall came around, while the bulk of our formation waited in columns at the outskirts of the city, our funditores drew the patrolling punic skirmishers away from the city. I took charge to their rear before they could get within range of our men, and our new Numidian friends hurled their javelins into their backsides. They took flight, we took chase...and we were left with the simple matter of dealing with the Libyan spearmen still left in the center of the city. The numidians took one street, our velites and samnites took the other, surrounding the spearmen they performed magnificently. Whenever the spearmen presented their backs to either group they were met with a volley, and whenever they got too close, our skirmishers took to fleet of foot and outran them in the opposite direction.

Needless to say, after all was done, Lepcis Magna now lay in our hands, we have culled nearly 4,500 slaves from its population, and..oh, yes. The casualty report. Here it is.
https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/...victoryty8.jpg

As you can see, if Mars continues to hold us in such high favor as he has done today, the future is bright indeed.

As for other things. The Iberian army in the Alpine Pass has been blocked by our forces, should they wish for war, they will be sorely punished, and if they back down, then we can only hope that their prudence continues to outweigh greed, and, honestly, stupidity. I have already ordered the immediate initiation of extensive building projects throughout the Greco-Macedonian regions and have begun to restructure and reorganise the tactical mess we seem to have gotten ourself into, I will go into more detail when this has been completed.

For now, things are beginning to look up, and I hope the future holds the fruits of prosperous days for all of Rome.

In nomini Roma, et pro totus doxa deum.
Consul Servius Aemilius"

The clerk looks out amongst the senators and smiles.

I think I speak for all the senate when I congratulate my grandson on this excellent beginning of his consulship.
I beg the consul however, pray tell us if you made sure all the slaves ended up in the cities that most need the population, and not in Corinth, Athens and so forth ?

(OOC - I thought I moved everybody unnecessary out, but I guess I missed Athens...)

Congratulations and I hope the others in my family will join me in this sentiment. A good start to your Consulship indeed.

I am apparently the first to congratulate our forces on their destruction of the Thracian horde. Proof again, if more was needed, that our armed forces are capable of amazing feats of heroics and skill.

I am told that soon I shall depart these shores. I cannot say to where though, but tonight I shall pray to Mars and Jupiter for my safe journey and that I may perform my duties well for the Republic.

Servius's clerk nods.
I'm sure, were he here, the consul would wish you the best in your expedition senator. It is my understanding also that we are soon to hear word of the east, and the situation that is being resolved as we speak.

Servius's clerk, who shall hereby be known as UPS Maximus, prepares to adress the senate again.

Senators, I have been told to present to you the current state of affairs in the east. The messengers report that just days ago senator Numerious Aureolus, as per the consul's strategy, struck a resounding victory at Maronia, retaking the town from the Seleucid occupation force, and securing the local population through simple occupation. Further more, I am to reveal the situation there now for the senate's discussion.
https://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5539/theeastbr5.jpg

As you can see, senator Aureolus's victory at Maronia was a strong success.

Senator Coruncanius, north of Maronia, has been asked to deliver the central Seleucid forces there to an early grave. An order for a night attack on the main contingent has been ordered, so as to catch the larger army off guard and prevent them from acquiring reinforcements. The outcome of this battle will determine our next immediate move in the east. But we feel we can rest assured that senator Coruncanius will secure a victory in the name of Rome. In which case he will continue immediately west to crush the smaller army, and senator Aureolus will launch an attack from Maronia to push the last Seleucid army into the cold waters of the straits.

We expect the Thracian army to the north may launch an attack on Tylis or Debeltos, but Tylis should be able to be easily defended by senator Saturninus, and Debeltos would be swiftly retaken.

We are awaiting further news from the front, but we have certainly left our prayers to Mars for good fortune.

My congratulations to Praetor Tiberius Coruncanius on his impressive victory against the Seleucids.

May they take the hint and leave us alone! :2thumbsup:

I doubt that Senator. Their lands are vast and their manpower is endless. we shall see these battles for many seasons to come.

Nevertheless, I must congratulate Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerius Aureolus on their fine victories.

UPS Maximus receives another letter from the consul.

Senators! More news from the consul!

"Senators,

I am pleased to hear of our victories in the east over the Seleucids. Slightly disappointed that one of their armies found it better to flee than fight, but such cowards will be dealt with in due time.

I am currently preparing for an expedition of my own in the west. After further assessment of the situation, I have determined that it would, in fact, be detrimental to our campaign in Afrika to allow the army led by Celeas Abderas and Mobilkar the Mad to exist for one more season. The smaller contingents surrounding him, while easily defeated one at a time with Celeas gone, would provide a much more difficult opponent if allowed to group and fought in unison with or directly following a battle with the main Carthy army.
So the plan is to strike at the carthy heart, then break the limbs as they come down one by one.

I shall send word of the expedition soon."

(OOC - Having some minor computer problems. I've solved the problem, but unforetunatly it involved wiping my entire computer, so I'm in the process of redownloading all the mods and glueing them back together. If all goes well, I'll be up and ready to go within the next 2 hours. If not, I need to try the multi-part zip.

Do not worry! This will not interfere with the flow of the game! If I can't get it up and running within the next two hours, Quintus Libo will be given the order to march, and the game will progress regardless, while I hammer out the minor details with the re-install.)

First consul,

As your army is already invading the Cartheginian heartland, I can't help but wonder what has happened to the Consular Army, which was ready to invade from Sicily ? Do you want to deny your brother Marcellus his part of the glory and conquer Carthage singlehandedly ?
Those who the gods would destroy, they first make proud.

Uncle, darnit. So I have even more authority over him than I would as brother. :laugh4:

UPS Maximus - Senator Lucius, you are mistaken. It was made very clear that the conquest of Carthage would not begin for at least a year and a half past the first consul's election. What is occuring now is the necessary whiddling down of Carthage's military might. Consul Servius is by no means moving north in an attempt to conquer Carthaginian territory. He is taking advantage of a strategically sound position to pull Carthage's brazen and unprepared armies south, where they will be broken one by one. Marcellus and Flavius Pacuvius, will, within a year and a half's time, be landing on the shores of Carthage to begin the actual conquest.

As for the consular army, Manius Coruncanius is ready to embark to the east, where it is more immediately needed.

As for the gods, the only pride I have seen from the consul is pride to be fighting in Mars name, and for the good of the Republic, for the advancement of our people. I see no personal issues clouding his judgement. Perhaps you should read the second half of the first consular report, updated just recently. There, the consul speaks of passion, and may I note, at the end of every journal entry. He writes "in nomini roma, et pro totus doxa deum." (In the name of Rome, and for all the glory of the gods.)

You should know your grandson better than anyone Lucius.

As I feared, the endless battles in the east are drawing your attention away from the core issue, the conquest of Carthage. I think it is a mistake to send the consular army to the east instead of the south. In your position, I would leave the east to its own devices and send all available troops southwards.
Nevertheless, I lack access to all the tactical information and am confident the first consul has made a sound decision.

Senator Lucius Aemilius,

I would perhaps believe that my Grandfather and Senator Numerius Aureolus would have a much different view of that situation. They face the full force of the Selucid Kingdom with only a Legion each, no Senator, I am needed elsewhere.

The Consul is not being distracted, how could he be? He, himself, is fighting in Afrika…surely his thoughts are more there than anywhere else.

I have great confidence in the plans the Consul has, there will be an Invasion of Afrika and the conquest of Carthage, but in a proper manner where the Mothers of our Republic do not weep for too many lost sons of Mars.

NUMERIUS AUREOLUS: I wonder if the First Consul could inform the Senate on his grand strategic thinking at the moment? Some of his actions have been unexpected given the discussions in the last Senate session. For example:

1) Our occupation of Viberi appears to be permanent - what are the Consul's intentions regarding the remaining Thracian settlements?

2) Our response to the Seleucid incursions into Europe have been more vigorous than I anticipated. What is to be our next move in the east?

3) The advance from Lepcis Magna has also been a surprisingly aggressive move. What will be the next move of the Consul's own army?

4) The news that the Consular army is bound for the east, not Afrika, is unexpected. What is it to be tasked with?

I list these instances not to complain - many of these surprises are welcome ones, but they are still surprises and I would be grateful to learn of the Consul's thinking.

Whilst I am privy to most of what the Consul plans for the near future and have many of the answers to the questions you ask, I would not presume to speak for the Consul but I will provide you with some form of answer for your question regarding the Consuls own incursion into Afrika.

He did not intend his incursion to have this “aggressive” turn, however, he has acted in the manner of bringing the battle to the enemy and ensuring he fights the battles HE wants to fight and where HE wants to fight them. This is exceptional tactical prudence as I am sure you can appreciate.

He has managed to destroy a weak Carthaginian army and a Consular sized one for very little loss to his Roman and Italian Troops. He is perhaps in as better condition than any of us had hoped because of his swift action there. He never pretended that he would be able to take on the full might of Carthage alone, and has never intended to do so but, as I have noted from his style of leadership, he will certainly push the issue as far as is humanly possible.

If Mars smiles upon him he may be fortunate enough to either decimate or destroy a further two Consular sized formations, provided he can isolate them in turn, and this would allow our full Invasion to progress far more swiftly and efficiently when it comes.

I know the task that the Consul has presented with me and granted me this Consular army with to perform. I am not at liberty to advise you of that task, but I am sure you will approve of its nature.

That is, of course, always assuming nothing changes in that time. As we all know, often the enemy are rude enough to not play by our battle plans and we are forced to change ours.

UPS Maximus - Firstly, I would like to say that any plan can be set in stone, but when you try to move ahead with that plan, that stone, there are any number of obstacles in your way which can force you to rethink your plan. Many of you should all understand this full well, as it applies to the battlefield as well. Even the best laid plans, against an equally clever foe, only last until the beginning of the first engagement.

With that in mind, I can provide you with the answers you seek.

Firstly, we never intended to permanently occupy Viberi. Before anybody else brings it up, the consul did not vote in favor of the motion to give it away to anybody who would take it, because this would involve giving it back to thrace, or potentially to Iberia, which would completely defeat the purpose of taking it from Thrace to begin with. In that respect, the only neighbor we could find who was actually willing to take it was Iberia. The consul, finding it better not to completely abandon our German allies to becoming an island amongst the Iberian sea, felt compelled to garrison the settlement instead. This act may be temporary, it may be permanent. With this issue, it is still too early to tell. For now, however, it has provided Senator Quintus Libo with a place to fall back on should Thrace counter his incursion with unexpected force. A judgement shall be passed on the remaining Thracian settlements when the consul feels the bulk of the Thracian military might has been lain to waste through our cross border incursions.

As for the Seleucids. The whole of the senate seems to be surprised by the swiftness with which we have dealt the Seleucids a serious, early blow. Within a single seasons time we have eradicated three large Seleucid armies, killed numerous high ranking Seleucid generals, and pushed a fourth army and its young commander back across the straits. This is all thanks to the battle tactics of senators Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerious Aureolus, and the campaign strategy of the consul himself. Without the three collaberating the way they had, the situation in the east could have been something that the near future would not be able to reverse. Our next move, as things stand at the moment, is to wait for the Seleucids to make a move. We are predicting a siege of Byzantium, and possibly the withdrawn army crossing the straits once again, this time under the command of the Seleucid Beast, Molon, to either take Maronia again, or confront senator Aureolus on the field. We will decide further what course to take when we see what they actually decide to do.

As he has done this autumn, the senator will rely on the information relayed to us by our spy in Afrika to determine the best course of action, if he must fall back and await a better oppertunity to strike against the Carthaginian armies, he will do so. If there is a strong oppertunity to isolate and envelope one without putting himself in unneccessary, deadly danger, it will be done.

The Consular army headed for the east under the command of Manius Coruncanius is to land at Maronia, enter a debriefing with senator Numerious Aureolus, who will by then be well informed of his next set of orders, and proceed from there. We cannot set a definate, direct goal until we see the situation in the theatre at that time.

This senate has a horrible tendency of setting specific, unflexible goals without taking into consideration the fact that all situations change. The consul realises that nothing stays the same season by season, and everything must be taken in stride. There are some generalised goals everywhere. Stabilise the east, conquer Carthage, fend of Thrace, maintain peace with Iberia. How, exactly, these things are to be done when the time comes can only be determined by the circumstances of the moment.

If the consul were to say now, the consular army heading east is to do this, this and this, then when we arrive, the situation is completely different and those things are not within our best interest, then it is much more difficult to alter the plan without looking unreliable, than if we allow ourselves the leway to deal with moments as they come.

I hope I have answered all these questions, and, if there are more, will be glad to offer whatever knowledge I may.

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If the consul were to say now, the consular army heading east is to do this, this and this, then when we arrive, the situation is completely different and those things are not within our best interest, then it is much more difficult to alter the plan without looking unreliable, than if we allow ourselves the leway to deal with moments as they come.

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Forgive me Consul, but some might say that you are being driven by events, rather than driving them yourself. A more critical man might even say that you do not know what your own intentions are.

Beg your pardon Senator Paullus but isn’t the very essence of defending our borders as the Senate requires, RE-Active rather than PRO-Active?

In the East we must wait to see if the bloody nose we have given the Selucids deters them from further incursions, we have no mandate from the Senate beyond this other than to re-enforce and ensure they no longer can lay claim to our cities or walk un-contested in their streets.

Are you suggesting we take a more pro-active approach as we are doing in Afrika perhaps?

I believe the Motions passed last session prohibited further expansion in Europe also, so does this not answer the Question of Thrace? The Senate has basically instructed that our offensive ceases with them hasn’t it?

Does this also appear “event driven” to you Senator rather than the other way round?

Do not forget the Consul is bound as much as he can to fulfil the Motions the Senate has presented to him.

An invasion of Afrika and therefore Carthage was permitted……further than that is dependant on the actions of the other states around us rather than dictated by ourselves at this time as no approval was given from the Senate for other offensive actions.

But that would certainly not preclude any offensive actions where ever they are deemed as required to defend our cities as per one of our first Motions.

(OOC - Just to clear something up, because I think there might be a little confusion. UPS Maximus is Servius's freeman clerk, speaking for him in the senate while Servius himself is away on campaign. Most of what is said is the clerk's interpretation of Servius's feelings, not necessarily the precise thing. Servius's exact feelings can be seen in the consular reports, battle reports, and when UPS informs the senate that "a message from the consul has arrive". Just clearing up some confusion. :sweatdrop: )


UPS Maximus - Then some may clearly be incapable of seeing the prudence in patience. A goal must be set, but the path to it must be flexible, otherwise you walk straight into a brash, unnecessary defeat.

Look at the situation like this senator Paullus. If I am a cat and you are a mouse, and there is a piece of cheese in the center of the floor. Do you brazenly rush from your hiding place, as I sit beside the cheese, and hope to the gods I do not catch you? Or do you wait for me to go away, biding your time for the perfect oppertunity to strike and return home unharmed? The situation is that simple. Such brazen acts, charging in without truly knowing the gravity of the situation, cost us two co consuls in the last consulship. Able, cunning, and valuable men to the Republic, lost because they were not properly informed of the whole state of affairs. They did their duty to Rome, and they payed the ultimate price for it. Consul Servius would prefer the alternative. As we have already seen, his tactics have worked superbly thus far, based on reliable intelligence, co-operation and prudent, patient planning. Would you have us do the opposite, and rush in swords drawn and blind? I would not, nor does the consul. Strategy, patience, and guile. These are the practices that win wars, and these are the practices this consul employs.

Further more, a "more critical man" may also be unable to tell the difference between his ass and a hole in the ground, provided they're roughly the same size, shape, and he can fit his head equally well in both of them. The consul knows exactly what his intentions are. But as it has already been said, the path must be flexible. We have a present state, and we have a future goal, but the time in between these two points will be wrought with change and unexpected events that must be worked around to secure a proper victory, a proper achievement of our goal. Think of it as a river senator. Have you ever seen a river flow completely straight from its source to its mouth? No, rivers wind and bend, and weave for a great length before they spill into the sea, because the river knows it is much easier to wind around the hill than to try to plow straight through it. It is logic, it is flexibility. The Republic, right now, is like a river. The question is, would you rather us take our victories and our goals in stride so that we can reach our golden goal and claim victory over adversity? Or would you have us dash ourselves upon every rock we encounter, until the waters of the Republic are so splintered and broken, that they are merely absorbed once more into the ground, and its very existance is forgotten with the passage of time?

I, for one, choose victory. Flexibility, patience, strategy, guile, wisdom, and daring. These are the virtues our first consul has chosen to exhibit. Let me ask you all, especially senators Aureolus and Coruncanius, whose own tactical prowess in battle have brought them great, resounding victories when used in compliance with our consul's strategy. Could the strategy of any other man have repulsed the Seleucids entirely from Roman lands in a single season's time?

Anything else senator Paullus?

Senators, I speak before you. I have rarely done so before, so that I am speaking at all must let you know the gravity of the situation. I know that most senators here are cought up between the eastern and western fronts, but you may have forgotten the still-active north front. Thrace is far from defeated. There are 2 legion sized forces in the south of her lands, within a few seasons march from undefended roman settlements. Not to mention the near-consular sized army in the north. I, Quintus Libo, command only a small, understrength legion, yet the consul has made it clear that he intends to set me up against a force twice my size. I know that in the past I have shown my prowess as a general, (38-1 kill-lose ratio at last count, yes thank you) but all you have seen of me is fighting forces who at most have 200 more men then I, and no general. If you send me against a larger force headed by the overlord of thrace with many of his son's bodyguards present... you may not be pleased with the results. I do not ask for more soldiers, I ask that we revise our policy concerning the northern front. We are in a multi-front war right now because we overexpanded. The last thing on the senate's mind right now should be taking more land. Please do not send me against the collosal thracian horde, I am too young to die! Let me instead pick apart any smaller groups of thracians, let me lie in ambush for them, let me fight on my terms. "The only thing worse then no battle is a battle lost". If you send the Germanic Legion at the Thracian heart, we will all die. If you let us fall back and take it slower, we will win in the end.

There is a look of severe confusion on UPS's face.

Your navigators are quite confused senator. You are, indeed marching in the completely opposite direction you claim to be. And I have never stated that you would embark on such an expedition. That would be reckless, unnecessary, and certainly no order given by consul Servius. Actually, I would like to see documentation proving that I specifically said the consul gave such an order.

What I did say, was that you, and others, would be used to attack Thracian forces in Thracian lands, yes. But I never said you would go on such a foolish assault as the one you suggest. Like I said, have your navigators check their maps, they're telling you that you're somewhere you're not. You, and others, like Lucius Aemilius is doing now, will be used to attack Thracian forces inside Thracian lands, yes. But with the intent to defeat them and scatter them before they reach our borders.

To think that Consul Servius would send you to Vicus Marcomanni, well...that's just silly. Take a look at the senate motions themselves. The senate tried to pass a motion to send you there. However; Consul Servius voted against the motion. You have nothing to worry about senator Quintus. You are in good hands, we would not let such a valuable man fall ill to a poorly thought campaign.

(OOC - Take a look at the latest save game, it's 255-winter-lucius.zip in the upload directory. Autoresolve the battle or whatever just so you can get a good look at where you yourself are. You're marching back to Viberi, :2thumbsup: , far, far away from Vicus Marcomanni and their overlord's army.

EDIT - Note that that save game was placed there before your post was made. Just a bit of a mix up, it's ok.)

My my, how people deduce an entire strategy I have in mind based merely on my wondering out loud just what the Consuls plans are. What more can I say? You have already deconstructed "my" strategy.

UPS - I never said anything of any strategy you may have.

But when you accuse the consul of not knowing what he is doing, and of allowing other men to drive the course of history while he sits by and goes with the flow, then you should be quite ready for a lecture. Such things are a direct insult to the consul, who I have tried to explain to you is most certainly the man moving our current events more than any of our rival faction's leaders. Just because there are no blatant invasions or brash charges does not mean that it is not so. So far, they have all played right into his hands, and even the rather commendable attempts of the Seleucids to counter the consul's tactics have been defeated.

I never said that you didn't know what you are doing. I said some men might think that. I never called for "blatant invasions" or "brash charges".

And despite all your posturing and lecturing and philosophising like some kind of Greek, you still haven't clearly explained your strategy in the east, aside from some vague and wooly cliches.

He's got you there, Servius :laugh4:

UPS Maximus,

I believe you should find out if you can release the full details of what is planned initially in the East. Seems the Senate is getting "Twitchy".

UPS - Quite apparently so... I will dispatch a letter to consul Servius requesting his permission to divulge the full details of the plans for this consulship.

UPS Maximus - I believe that you should request that only the details of what is to happen in the Eastern regions in the next year or so be released. I don't believe that "plans for the Consulship" would be applicable or even relevant.

What was "planned" for the Consulship is stated in the Consuls pre-election manifesto. I'm sure the Senate will just be happy to hear of what the Consul has planned for the Two legions in the East already and what is planned for the Consular army I am currently leading.

I could have sworn that there were motions prohibiting the expansion into Asia Minor, but I guess I was wrong.

Nevertheless, hearing of the Consul's plans worries me greatly. I thought the general consensus was to stay on the defensive in the East?

UPS - There were motions prohibiting expansion into 'europe'. Asia minor can hardly be considered Europe.

From last we checked, the general consensus was never really shown the possibility of a significant victory in the east. The last few seasons have seen a turnaround in military power the likes of which could have never been accurately predicted. The consul has spent, on average, 4/5ths of the seasonal coffers on settlement improvement projects, and in 4 seasons time we have seen the loss of thousands of enemy soldiers, and six enemy generals, with very little cost to our own troops. You yourself will be landing in Afrika within two seasons Marcellus..an Afrika with no general at the head of any army, an africa which has been harassed and confused...and an Afrika, which, by next season, will likely be without 3 consular sized forces that it would have had four seasons ago, as one has already been destroyed, and a further two will likely try, futilely, to take Thapsus from the Consul's grasp.

Do you really doubt your nephew's judgement so much, despite the enormous success his consulship has so far enjoyed?

Consul, I must admit I find your proposals for expansion into Asia Minor most disturbing, and possibly illegal. Furthermore, the coalition of Senators that brought you to power did so on the understanding that you were a proponent of no more expansion!!

Instead you turn your back on those Senators who gave you your leg up the cursus honorum and do secret deals with Tiberius "I'm better then everyone else" Coruncanius and Numerius "I'm the new Alexander" Aureolus.

I wonder what the esteemed Augustus Verginius would make of this?

In fact, I find it more than fascinating that you wait till he is out of contact with the Senate before proposing this outrageous plan!!!

May I suggest that you hold our current borders at Byzantion and Maronia and concentrate on winning the war in Carthage! If our 2 glory-hunting generals in the east cannot abide not fighting a battle for a season or two, tough!

UPS - Did that same group of senators though, also, not only advocate, but push through a motion demanding the conquest of Carthage, the conquest of Rhodes? The only part of those motions that was non-expansionist was the part that said no more expansion in Europe. Surely now you can't expect Asia to somehow instantly become part of Europe. The consul has clearly defined his plans for europe. The current borders are to be held, fortified, and maintained in Europe. Our European holdings which have been given specific note are those in Gaul, Germania, and the Danube.

The consul is not out in Afrika sticking his own life on the line so that senators back here can engage in petty, nonsense arguments over the definition of what lands encompass Europe, and what lands encompass Asia, when the very land we are expanding into is called Asia Minor.

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Originally Posted by UPS Maximus

The consul is not out in Afrika sticking his own life on the line so that senators back here can engage in petty, nonsense arguments over the definition of what lands encompass Europe, and what lands encompass Asia, when the very land we are expanding into is called Asia Minor.

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You are deflecting the point, clerk. You know full well that it was your consul's goal not to expand anywhere this term aside from retaking Maronia, and conquering Rhodes/Carthage. We abandoned Nicomedia and Prusa. Obviously we wouldn't do this had we meant to hold onto them, no?

You accuse us of trying to define what Europe is and isn't. I see nobody in this room doing it. Clerk, do not deflect the issues here. Nobody who voted for your master (which would be everyone aside from myself and Senator Vatinius) did so under the impression that would expand further into the East.

UPS - Watch yourself Marcellus. Know your facts.

You abandoned Nicomedia and Prusa. Go back, look, delve into the statistics.

Servius never voted on that motion.

His feelings on the issue were conflicting, he knew it was necessary to leave the settlement then, but he knew full well it would be necessary to go back to it later. Voting yes or no on it then would have bound him to a position he was not in favor of in either respect. He had seen the middle ground, and abstained from voting on that motion.

Very well, I made a mistake. But it is still incredibly foolish to expand into Asia Minor.

Many the problems that your master faced when he came into office were a direct result of Roman overexpansion. And now we want to expand even further. Wow.

Next session of the Senate I intend to draft legislation making it absolutely clear that we are not to expand past Byzantion in the East. Then perhaps we will be able to actually consolidate.

Conscript fathers,

Word has reached me that the invasion of Asia minor has already begun. There has been great consternation about this already, and therefore let me take an in-depth view of the matter in the light of the passed motions of the last senate session.

Motion 11.4: Byzantion is to be held against all odds and to the last man.

Clearly, this motion indicates a defensive strategy.

Motion 11.8: We will not extend our borders in Europe during this consul's term, except for Maronia

The question arises where the Eastern border of Europe lies. Does it lie in the Bosporus strait, as our first consul Servius claims, or is Asia Minor actually considered a part of Europe ?

A quick look in current scrolls on geography of Europe show that the south-east boundary with Asia is not universally defined. Most commonly the Ural or, alternatively, the Emba River serve as possible boundaries. The boundary continues to the Caspian Sea, the crest of the Caucasus Mountains or, alternatively, the Kura River in the Caucasus, and on to the Black Sea; the Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, and the Dardanelles conclude the Asian boundary. So technically, Asia Minor is part of Asia.

However, the men living in the enlightened times of the Republic (OOC: West Europeans in the 21th Century) are under the assumption that Asia Minor (OOC: Turkey) is actually to be considered European (OOC: They're in the NATO). In fact, the population of that region would feel insulted if you implied they were not (OOC: As inheritors of the former Eastern Roman Empire they feel more European than 'regular Europeans', in which they have a point, they ruled half of Europe until mid-eighteenth century).

As one of these men, I certainly was under the assumption that this motion included Asia Minor under the heading of Europe. (OOC : We think of Europe (including Turkey) and the Middle East instead).

However, as has been shown, there are legal loopholes here which might be exploited, altough in show of this and further evidence, this would be hard to do with a straight face. Had I been aware of these loopholes, my motion would certainly have closed them, and in the discussions in the senate it was always perfectly clear I was opposing all expansion except into Carthage, Maronia and Rhodes.

Motion 11.10: We will not try to hold on to Nicomedia and Prusa

Clearly, the plan of the first consul contradicts this motion, altough it could be said that he followed the letter by abandoning them, and then recapturing them. I would not find this a very convincing line of argument however. Furthermore, these cities have been razed to the ground. What would be the point of capturing them ? They're worthless now. Let someone else pay for the reconstruction.

Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies. However, it notes that the distance between Maronia and Byzantion makes it impractical to defend them with just one army. Consequently, it so instructs the First Consul to work towards establishing two Consular sized armies to hold against Seleucia, each with a chirurgeon.

The words hold against Seleucia say it all. It clearly was the will of the senate to defend against the Seleucid empire, instead of invading it. Still, it might be argued that a good defense is a strong offensive.

After analyzing these points, I can add that the majority of voters that put my grandson in the saddle did so on the basis of specific conditions that I formulated and that my grandson agreed with, and I quote :

In the next senate session, I will advocate the conquest of Carthage, as that war will never end otherwise. On all other fronts I will support a policy of defensive warfare. To be more specific, we will not cross the Bosporus, we will not cross the Danube. I will support the conquest of Rhodes, but nothing else.

We have already crossed into Asia Minor and captured a settlement. So my grandson has broken faith with me and several other prominent senators personally, most notably Augustus Verginius, to my great regret. I have tried to sway him from this course, to no avail. On behalf of the Aemilia family I plead forgiveness from these gentlemen for this breach of faith. It was my influence that brought him to the position of first consul, to my deep shame.

I smell the corrupting hand of Numerius Aureolus in this turn of affairs. His silk tongue and visions of glory must have turned my grandson from the straight path, no doubt assisted by his equally vainglorious friend Tiberius Coruncanius. Under the guile of duty to the Republic all these men do is lust for battle, and to Dis with the consequences.
Ha, he is sly that one, I remember him rebuking me as uncivilized for enslaving the barbarians of Nicomedia, which is ridiculous in this day and age, then later, desperate for battle, he held the enslavement and plunder of Prusa for my eyes as a carrot to give him yet another mission.
Yet I could read the true intentions in his soul, and used them for the good of the Republic, for truly he is a skilled and usefull general. Unfortunately, my grandson, young and trustful, has been decieved by this man into going deep into the grey area at the border of direct motion violation.

Lastly, there is the military consideration. Would this new border proposed by the first consul be easier to defend ? Of course it would not be.

To summarize,
Legally, the first consul is clearly ignoring the will of the senate in the matter of the invasion of Asia Minor, altough a good legal staff might make a case that he is nowhere directly violating a senate motion, only indirectly.
Military, my personal strategic view of this action is utter folly.
Financially, I see this as money wasted. All this territory will need to be guarded and developed at enormous cost. Money which I wanted to see invested in our own cities. The long list of cheap temples already build do not make a dramatic impression. Most of our cities need expensive buildings, like baths and forums.
Personally, the shame brought on me by the breach of trust by the first consul with the voters that backed him has hurt me more deeply than a Thracian falx has done in dozens of battles.

Nevertheless, I will not take any further action as of yet, but if the Cartheginian campaign suffers major setbacks due to this I will probably reconsider that position.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: If I may raise my corrupting hand and interject at this point?

I certainly did propose holding the Maronia-Byzantion line against Seleucia. However, even before his election, the First Consul communicated to me that he believed it more sensible to defend the line he currently proposes in Asia Minor. I was happy to trust to his judgement in this, although at the time I did not anticipate that his strategy against the Seleucid incursions into Europe would be as stunningly successful as they were revealed to be in his autumn offensive.

Do not underestimate the First Consul, Senators. He is very much his own man and is, as you have seen, full of surprises.

Let us get to the substance of the matter, Senators, and not bleat about how you define Europe, when it is as clear as the nose on the venerable Augustus Verginius's face! This is not a legal matter. It is a matter of grand strategy. Why do Marcellus and Lucius Aemilius oppose the Consul's plan to form a defensive line in Asia Minor rather than the straits?

Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. We will have to fight the Seleucids some more, it is true, but that would be the case whether we fight in Europe or Asia Minor. But their main spearheads are all crushed, or will soon be after this season, if Praetor Coruncanius has his way. What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them. There is no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

But if we are to fixate on the East, then of course the First Consul is right. There are many settlements in Asia Minor that lie within our grasp before the line the First Consul has sketched to hold Seleucia. Taking those settlements would increase our revenues at the expense of our mortal enemies and would not extend our forces, except for the requirement of some garrions.

This is war, gentlemen. A war we did not start. But a war with a potentially great power, like Seleucia. In such a war, you do not floor your enemy and then passively sit back. You do not wait for her to rise again and find new strength, to call on her great resources to strike again into your home and terrorise your people. No, Senators, in war, when your enemy is down, you kick him. Steal his weapons, tear off his defenses. Kick him and keep kicking him until he cannot get up.

The only reason I proposed stopping in the east was to spare resources for the invasion of Carthage. Given the destruction of most of the Seleucid field armies threatening us and the diversion of the Consular army to the east, that reason is no longer valid. We now have the men, let us do the job.

(Appius Barbatus): Honoured Fathers of the Republic, and revered generals,

It is with most humble gratutitude I address you today. My unending thanks must be given to my patron and father in law, Tiberius Coruncanius, for bringing me to this illustrious body.

In truth, though, I come here not only to honour him, but in fact to defend his good name. I grew up with his family, his children and kinsfolk, and heard many stories of Tiberius' stands against the Gauls many years ago; of the tragedy of Amulius and the hardship brought on his family with his loss; of his Consular war against those Macedonians who now lie as dead enemies of Rome; of Tiberius' willing and benevolent belief that his priests would help Lucius Aemilius in his own battles soon after.

And yet, today I hear this same Aemilius complain of vainglory in my noble patron. What am I to think? That Lucius has forgotten the great benefits that Rome has gained from the struggles which Tiberius and indeed the whole of the Coruncanii have endured, all because of quibbling over the language of a few laws?

I cannot believe that a great man such as Lucius Aemilius would have forgotten these things, so soon after the war with Macedon.

Let us lay aside these petty differences and look to the future of Rome, a future that ensures the safety of Ionia and the proper honouring of that homeland of our glorious ancestor Aeneas.

Pah, Numerius, your reasoning is fluid and erronous as always.

First you clamour about the dreadful position the first consul has managed to get himself into and then carefully disguise the reason for this. The first consul has clearly decieved his backers even before the election, otherwise the Consular Army would have been send to Carthage under his uncle Marcellus instead of to the East under Manius Coruncanius and then the first consul would not have been in this situation in the first place !
Clearly, he has been plotting with you all along for the invasion of Asia Minor, to the detriment of the Cartheginian expedition. These facts make his deceit even worse than it already was. I can feel no pity for my grandson in the desert, altough for the Republic's sake, I hope he does not fall.

Appius Barbatus, welcome to his house. I hope you bring more honour to it than my grandson does. Your father is a mighty warrior and a honourable man, but since he has been campaigning with Numerius I have become unsure of his motivations, altough it pains me to say it. Some of my agents have reported questionable things to me, altough the true blame is surely to be found in my own family. I apologize to my old friend and comrade, Tiberius Coruncanius. I spoke in anger and I regret it.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

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Senator, I am sure none present doubt your ability as a general. It is you and the consul's ability as strategists that is under question. I am sure that you could fight off a full sized consular Seleucid Army with only a half stack Legion, but that only reinforces the fact that more troops are not needed in the east.

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Originally Posted by econ21

What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them.

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My point exactly. You do not need more troops then the Seleucids. Heaven knows their generals are a speck of dirt compared to ours. You could kill the Seleucid war machine with half of their numbers, let alone more!

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Originally Posted by econ21

If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

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We would not need to debate the problem of the east if the First Consul had followed his manifesto and moved the consular army to Afrika. You sneer at the forces in Afrika like they are foolish, it is not their fault they are outnumbered! You boast of the size of your armies, yet at the same time you say how others need the legionaries more. What do you really believe? Are you such a poor general that you cannot beat an enemy unless you outnumber him? Or are you simply a selfish man who wants all the glory himself? I must say I am leaning toward the latter. "Alexander" eh? I spit at your feet "oh Great one"

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Lucius Aemilius, the pleasure of working under you as First Consul is matched only by the pain of receiving your opprobrium on the floor of the Senate.

But do not talk to me of plotting and backers for the post of Consul! I care not for such games and you of all people should know I had no part in such shenanigans. You may forget that under your leadership I was made the whipping boy for war with Seleucia and Ptolemy by both Senators Marcellus and Servius Aemilius, but I do not forget. Faced with the prospect of either man becoming consul, still less my arch-tormenter, Augustus Verginius, I have devoted myself only to military matters and eschewed politics.

As for my dear Senator Libo, I do not know what I have done to deserve your venom. You really must learn to read between the lines. You have inferred that I wished or even requested the Consular Army to be diverted to the east. Yet all my words that you quote imply clearly that I do not think it wise. Even this very day, before the present acrimony in the Senate, I was thinking of writing to the Consul, urging him to turn the fleet back. But then I realised the fleet was almost at the coast of Asia Minor and such a request would be futile.

Indeed Senator Libo, you do not even have to read between the lines. Read my own words in the last session of Senate. Did I not propose that we stand on the defensive in the East in order to conquer Carthage? I am as bemused as anyone by the First Consul's decision to divert the Consular army. Was I not the man who first pressed him to disclose his intentions in this house? That request was made genuinely - I did not know his plans then and if I had been consulted, I would have said, precisely what you have intimated - I believe the Consular army is needed in Afrika not the east.

However, the First Consul is the First Consul and I am a mere humble general. Moreover, as I say, I have learned that the Consul is not a man to be under-estimated. He has constantly surprised me with the brilliance of his stratagems. When he has consulted me on matters of strategy, invariably my counsel has been declined in favour of his own plans. And invariably I have come to see that the First Consul's plans were better and that he was right to reject my advice.

Consequently, when faced with the diversion of the Consular army, I am prepared to be patient and hold my counsel. I suspect that the Consul will surprise his doubters by achieving far more than you currently believe possible. Unless, of course, you eunuchs succeed in framing legislation to neuter him in the interim session and constrain him to behave as you do.

Senators, we need to be clear on something. Judging by current circumstances, at least one person believes in the merits of invading Asia Minor. I have suspicions of others, but for now let me just tell you the difference a year makes.

One year ago, everyone was speaking of consolidation. In fact, it was just assumed that the next consul would fight a defensive war in the East, so that's why no motions were passed specifying it. One year ago, I was marching to the tip of Italia to take command of a Consular Army bound for Carthage. Today, I find myself in command of a Praetorian one near Tarentum! And the Consular Army is under the person who was supposed to be my Tribune, Manius Coruncanius, and it is bound for the East of all places! I smell a plot.

Servius, you have some serious explaining to do. You have already provided reasoning for expansion in the East, which I do not agree with. But tell me, why the switch of armies? Why is the Consular Army headed to Greece? Why am I somewhere near Tarentum? And why on Earth has nobody reinforced the forces in Carthage yet?

And I don't want to hear what some damn clerk thinks the Consul's plans are. UPS Maximus, you contact your master and tell him exactly what's going on. I need to hear it straight from him, in front of the entire Senate, why our focus has suddenly shifted from Carthage to the East.

Firstly I'd like to extend a welcome to Senator Appius Barbatus. Senator, you do not have to thank me for bringing you into this illustrious body, for to bring such a wise man as yourself into the Senate is merely another service I perform for the Republic!

Many things have been said of secret plots between myself, the Consul, and Aureolus. Many things, each one exactly as baseless as the last. Lucius, you may want to replace your "agents", they're either lying to you or are grossly incompetent. Same would apply to Valerius "I spent most of my 'career' sitting in Tarentum" Paullus.

Now let's clear up a few things, shall we? The Consul's plan was kept in secret. I found the details of it by reading the report as everyone else did. Perhaps the best proof that I had no hand in this plan will be that I will now speak against it. It is a poor plan. He merely intends to abandon one defensive position, and replace it with another. What's worse, he wishes to abandon a good one for a poor one. I would support an aggressive strategy, but such strategies must have a clear and valuable goal in mind. Drawing a border across the middle of Asia is not such a goal.

I would support one of two strategies.

I. Staying at or near the straits. Attacking armies across the straits, but not conquering.
II. Launching a conquest of Asia, not stopping until Syria is reached, and Antioch is captured.

The first one accomplishes nothing, but it easy to execute with no additional resources needed. The second one accomplishes much, but is difficult to execute and would require additional resources. The Consul has decided instead to combine the two into a strategy which accomplishes nothing and is difficult to execute!

What's worst of all, he has decided to divert the consular army to the east, an action I could never support. For one, it is not needed in the east. It would not be needed for the defensive plan, it would not be needed for the offensive plan, it is not needed for his quasi-offensive plan. Even more importantly, it is needed in Africa. It should have been in Africa already! The city of Carthage should already be in our hands. Long have I waited for the fall of Carthage. I'm getting somewhat impatient, I'm not going to live forever, you know! It seems we're not making any progress in Africa, and we should be. There will be much to explain come mid-term if Carthage has not been captured.

I bring to the attention of the senate that we have, thus far, only taken 3 settlements that are truely west of Rome. I am not hinting anything here, I just flat out do not think we should expand in the east an more. Rome is not the geographic center of our Republic anymore. Furthermore, if an enemy army came from the west, say from Iberia or Carthage for instance, they would have a few settlements to sack before laying seige to Roma herself. If the seleucids break past our defences, they are 10 settlements, some walled, and 2 seas away from Roma. We need to stop thinking about personal gain, and start thinking sense.

(Appius Barbatus): First, I must say that the deliberations and thoughts presented here are truly awe-inspiring. It will be quite a number of years before I am able to contribute as fully as this assembly deserves.

Because of my youth and inexperience, I hesistate to speak. However, I feel bound by my love for the Republic to do so.

The cry of "Cartago delenda est!" is alive and well in this chamber. And I agree, they pose the gravest threat to both the safety of our cities and the livelihood of our merchants close to home.

At the same time, after reading through the annales of recent action in the east, Numerius Aureolus may have a valid point, stating that Seleucia has been dealt a stunning blow. And Quintus Libo is correct in assessing that our troops and generals are able to defeat Seleucia on the battlefield with two of their men to one of ours.

But do we know to what extent Seleucia has been reduced? Have scouts and spies been sent to find out the true strength of their strongholds and troops at the present time?

A full conquest of Asia would, without a doubt, yeild a vast amount of wealth and secure Roma's grain supply for generations to come. It may be that this could be achieved at little expense in both legions and dinarii. Or, it could be that such an action would indeed be disasterous beyond compare, leading to an incursion into Roma itself as Quintus Libo has pointed out.

However, as the Poet has said, until the fog clears one cannot see. To know Seleucia's forces and defence would enable us to make a decision for the good of Roma, based on the clear sight of Diana rather than the soporific passions of Venus.

UPS - Marcellus, you're to arrive in Carthage soon..why don't you just wait to ask him yourself? Though I could probably guess the answer is because Carthage poses no real threat. By skilled generals they could be put to the sword, or given the run around, as has been clearly seen, the consul, alone in Afrika, has given the entire Carthy force the shaft for four seasons now. When you and Flavius Pacuvius arrive, with your consular sized armies you so adamantly demand, what is to prevent our swift victory?

I want to know where this sudden outburst is coming from, this horrible fear that you won't be leading a consular army. Where does this hail from Marcellus? Why do you feel that you will not be receiving a full compliment of forces before you disembark? Does it really matter which consular army you command? I should think not.

You wanted - A consular army, a tribune, and your chance at Carthage.

Consul Servius has already arranged for all of these things. AND, might I add. On time with his proposed departure for Afrika of a year and a half's time from the date of his election? You will be departing in two turns...with a consular army, with an Aemilii for your tribune, someone who shares your views on Carthage. What is your issue with the Carthaginian campaign?

I don't understand it. I think you are just barking up trees to see if you can startle the squirrels. The east is seasons away from you Marcellus, why concern yourself so much with it?

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Senators, we need to be clear on something. Judging by current circumstances, at least one person believes in the merits of invading Asia Minor. I have suspicions of others, but for now let me just tell you the difference a year makes.

One year ago, everyone was speaking of consolidation. In fact, it was just assumed that the next consul would fight a defensive war in the East, so that's why no motions were passed specifying it. One year ago, I was marching to the tip of Italia to take command of a Consular Army bound for Carthage. Today, I find myself in command of a Praetorian one near Tarentum! And the Consular Army is under the person who was supposed to be my Tribune, Manius Coruncanius, and it is bound for the East of all places! I smell a plot.

Servius, you have some serious explaining to do. You have already provided reasoning for expansion in the East, which I do not agree with. But tell me, why the switch of armies? Why is the Consular Army headed to Greece? Why am I somewhere near Tarentum? And why on Earth has nobody reinforced the forces in Carthage yet?

And I don't want to hear what some damn clerk thinks the Consul's plans are. UPS Maximus, you contact your master and tell him exactly what's going on. I need to hear it straight from him, in front of the entire Senate, why our focus has suddenly shifted from Carthage to the East.

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Conscript Fathers, first of all I would like to apologise to our esteemed former Consul, Tiberius Coruncanius, I had wrongly accused him of being party to this madness. This is for 2 reasons, neither of them that we have agents feeding us false information. Firstly our current Consul himself has repeatedly stated that he has been having private discussions with Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerius Aureolus, naturally one assumes that those named are party to plans announced. Secondly, Senator, you must admit that your style in this house does have a touch of, shall we say, aloofness, in that you come across as regarding everyone else as your inferior (OOC: You remind me of Tribesman in the backroom....). However, I am gratified to hear that you regard the current consuls plans with the same bemusement as the rest of us.

Turning to those plans. Consul, you have communicated with me privately regarding my concerns over these plans. I shall not reproduce your letter in public, but forgive me if I answer your points in this forum.

You say that holding our borders at Maronia and Byzantion is impossible, shown by the fact we let 4 Seleucid armies across the straits. I say that we can't have been defending the crossing points properly! There are only 2 ways across the Marmara, one of them must have been undefended to allow this.

You say that we cannot see into Seleucid lands to ascertain their movements so we must eat into their empire. I say, do you have any idea how VAST the Seleucid Empire is? Theirs is a huge, sprawling empire, from the vast expanse of the Arabian desert to the high and mountainous Hindu Kush. Tell me consul, how will we watch their cities on the coastline of the Indian Ocean from a chain of forts in Asia Minor? If you wish to anticipate the Seleucid military, may I suggest a network of spies might be a cheaper and more effective manner of doing so.

You say that we need a "solid boundary", a "clearly visible line" and that a chain of forts in Asia Minor will produce it. I say there is no more natural, solid, obvious boundary than the coast and the sea! So many of us thought when we reached the Bosphorus that we had finally achieved a natural, lasting border. Its a deduction so obvious that it stuns me that some insist it isn't.

However, here I must also give credit where credit is due. Your proposals for a chain of forts protecting chokepoints on our northern and western borders is an excellent one, and one that I fully support. Which makes your decision to go beyond the natural chokepoints we hold in the South East all the more baffling.

Tell me Consul, for I cannot understand it, how is defending 5 points on a wide front easier than defending 2 points on a narrow front? Why is this obvious to everyone except you and Numerious Aureolus?

You say that you are spending 80% of our seasonal income on improving our settlements. I say that this a deceiving statistic on several levels. Tell me,what is our seasonal income? How much has it plummeted as we have sunk into war after war? How much has it plummeted as we find all the ports of the Mediterranean closed to us? How much has it plummeted as the wage bill for our ever growing army gets ever higher? What is 4/5ths of not a lot? We have a saying where I come from Consul, three fifths of knack all, and that is what your "spending" amounts to. And what have you been spending this money on? Minor temples and shrines to try and placate the plebs, thats what. I tell you Consul, this is akin to trying to heal a broken leg by drinking honeyed wine. Our Republic is vast, it has grown too quickly and our cities are under-developed. Our people need Viaducts, Forums, Agoras, Governors Palaces, Paved Roads, Auxilia and Integration and more besides and they are not cheap Consul. I do not have the financial reports in front of me, but I think I can confidently predict that constructing a Governors Palace and an Aquaduct would exhaust a single seasons income. And then there are the cities in Carthage that will need improving and integrating at great cost.

You ask me to trust you. I say I cannot trust you. You have betrayed the principles that brought you the Consulship and engaged in litigatious acrobatics to try and give your actions a veneer of legal respectability. Trust takes a long time to build, but is very quickly thrown away.

You say what have we lost if an expedition into Asia Minor fails. I say we lose the precious blood of Roman citizens, we lose the even more precious blood of Roman patricians. And we lose our Roman honour.

You say that you are in Afrika risking your life for the good of the Roman Republic. I say this is true. But I also say that you should concentrate on winning the war in Carthage before indulging in grand designs in the East. Tell me Consul, how many Carthaginian cities do we control? We did control Lepcis Magna, a wart on the edge of nowhere, but we couldn't keep hold of that. Now we control Thaspus, a nothing town. I doubt Carthage even misses it. I congratulate you on your campaign so far, you have repeatedly bested the enemy, but do not think that this war is over. Already we have lost 2 consuls in battle. Both died in wars that we are or were winning, do not think that you are immune from deaths grip. You have many, many, many battles yet to fight in Africa. Let us win the war there first, then we may look to the East. I say again as you boast of how you have given the Carthaginians the run-around, how many of their cities do we own?

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Originally Posted by econ21

Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. We will have to fight the Seleucids some more, it is true, but that would be the case whether we fight in Europe or Asia Minor. But their main spearheads are all crushed, or will soon be after this season, if Praetor Coruncanius has his way. What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them. There is no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

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Thankyou Numerius, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger.

Indeed, those 3 forces should be more than enough to hold the frontier for some time, even allowing a small reserve to head north to help stave off any Thracian incursions.

There is no danger.

Brilliant! Superb!! At last, all the blood that we have spilt has come to fruition! The deaths of our citizens has not been in vain! They have secured us from danger. Praise the Gods!

If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries.

How true. I fear greatly that unless more troops arrive in Africa that we shall lose a 3rd consul in battle, if only through sheer weight of numbers wearing his forces down.

The East is stable for now

Again, superb! Then let us focus our limited resources on where they are needed, not go trying to conquer the vast, enourmous lands of Seleucia. You say they are "on the floor". Numerius, I suggest you send a spy to explore their empire, see what they have at their disposal. I tell you, taking a handful of provinces off them in Asia minor would be like pulling a leg off a millipede.


And if I may labour the point about stabilising the east. We have so much that needs to be done, that we can now spare resources to do. Tell me, are there still huge Carthaginian armies on a couple of our islands? Have we conquered Rhodes as the previous Consul recommended, thus boosting our income? What about reinforcements for the Carthaginian campaign? We have a great many cities to conquer, all of which require garrisoning, or are we to do as we did in Greece and Macedonia and use Mercanaries to do it? Talk about throwing away valuable denarii. What about if Iberia attacks us?

Ahh, now there's a question. What if Iberia attacks us? A vast and fearsome barbarian people, and our greatest slayer of barbarians is unavailable...Have we thought about that? We all know that one day, sooner or later, they will attack us. As I say these words their armies might be moving up to assault our Gallic outposts. As long as they remain, we must never ever ever grow complacent about their threat.

Conscript Fathers, we still have many challenges to meet and problems to solve. Crossing into Asia Minor will not help.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Valerius Paullus, I have said that if it were my decision, the Consular army would be in Afrika. However, it is now off the coast of Asia Minor and the First Consul says he can muster a second to sail for Afrika in two seasons. So, let us not spend time debating past decisions, but focus on where we are now.

I would also like to say, on the matter of the communications between the First Consul, Praetor Coruncanius and myself, that such things were on strictly military matters about the movement of our specific armies each season. I am very grateful for the First Consul for consulting with us on these matters, although I repeat, he invariably followed his own course - not that of either the Praetor and myself - and I believe history has shown his course to be the most profitable.

But back to the big matters on hand - the questions of grand strategy. The issue of Afrika, I leave to the First Consul. I can only speak to the east. We have three virtually Consular sized forces now in the east. To use them merely to hold the straits would be wasteful. To send back the Consular fleet when a second will arrive in Afrika before it would also be pointless. They would arrive too late to be useful. Besides, we are obligated by law to take Rhodes and a fleet is required for that.

To remind Senators, the First Consul proposes the following frontier:

https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/ItsLugo/plans.jpg

Senators should note two things from this picture. First, there are only three Seleucid armies visible - and the area that our spies have mapped is rather wide. One Seleucid army, at Abydos, I have now destroyed. The other two, threatening Byzantion, I believe Praetor Coruncanius could destroy this season in two hard battles. Asia Minor would then be open to us. We have spies and we have other means of information (ooc: graphs of military). I can confidently repeat there is no danger. Seleucia has a significant military force of course, but it is spread out across its vast territories and indeed, it appears to be losing ground in the Middle East against Ptolemy. With the forces available and those posed against, the east is safe.

I accept Valerius Paullus gracious thanks for helping provide this security. But it is not an achievement to be lightly mocked. When we last debated before the elections, the situation in the east was grim indeed. Lucius Aemilius was forced to adopt a scorched earth policy, abandoning settlements to strong Seleucid armies marching into Europe. We faced multiple Consular armies, all now destroyed or about to be destroyed. Legio V was a shadow of its former self and Field Army I scarcely existed except in name. Senators, how much has changed! Do not dare take this for granted! And then to sneer at the First Consul and say you do not trust him! Do not trust him?! A man who has turned the tables on the mighty Seleucia in one season! Rome's security could scarcely be in better hands!

So, let us agree - the situation in the east is stable. Praetor Coruncanius asks what we gain by moving east of the straits. Look at the map, good general. What we gain is ten settlements. This is the other thing that Senators should note from the map. Ten Seleucid and Ptolemic settlements lie within a seasons march of the straits, within the red perimeter that the First Consul has drawn for our frontier: Pergamon, Abydos, Prusa, Nicomedia, Ancrya, Pessinus, Sardis, Smyrna, Mytilene and Halicarnus. Senators, this land is therefore a rich land, with many settlements. I doubt even the entire Afrika expedition will yield more then ten settlements. We can take and hold these settlements with the forces available. In time, they will cost us only minimal garrisons and greatly expand our revenues.

Senators, do not bemoan lost trade income. You may as well cry over spilt milk! The trade is not coming back. The die has been cast. Egypt, Carthage and Ptolemy are our deadly enemies. We will see no more trade from them. It is to land and to taxes that we must look for our future income. Stop whining about our past losses and think how can offset these with future gains!

But perhaps more important than the fact that we will gain ten settlements is that Seleucia and Ptolemy will lose them. Praetor Coruncanius, would you rather leave those settlements and each season watch cohorts of armed men raised from them, to march to the straits and spill Roman blood?! Two more battles, Praetor, then the east is open to us. By the blood of our men, we have earned those spoil of war. And by their naked aggression against us, Seleucia and Ptolemy have forfeited all rights to those lands.

Senators, it was with a heavy heart that I agreed in the last session to hold in the east while we advance in Afrika. I foresaw endless waves of Seleucid armies marching towards us and have to be fought again, and again, for no gain but the security of our borders. However, I accepted that grim duty without complaint because I believed it necessary for our Afrika campaign. But, as I have said, the First Consul is a man full of surprises and a brilliant strategist. He has laid out a path that will allow us to carry out the Afrika campaign and make gains in the east. It would be a timid and wretched Senate that tries to thwart him on that path.

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Originally Posted by Numerius Aureolus

Senators, it was with a heavy heart that I agreed in the last session to hold in the east while we advance in Afrika. I foresaw endless waves of Seleucid armies marching towards us and have to be fought again, and again, for no gain but the security of our borders.

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So you would instead march to the point where our borders are no longer secure, then?

If you are confident in the amount of men being more than enough to face the Seleucids then perhaps some units should be disbanded. It would certainly help with our financial situation.

Contrary to what the good senator believes, there are other ways to expand our treasury aside from conquering.

Numerius Aureolus, you have swayed my mind for now. The consular army is in the east, and it should fight there. To send it back west would waste time and money, money we don't have. Taking Rhodes + the entire Agean Coast, as the First Consul has promised us, would boost our income significatly, allowing for more legions to be raised to fight in Afrika if neccessary.

Also, the First Consul has told us he has already put in the orders concerning another Consular Army to be raised and sent to Afrika. If he can indeed pull this off, and hand the Senate both Carthage and Seleucid lands, I say let him. In fact, I challenge him to do this.

If the First Consul fails, then at the end of his term we can discuss the penalty for his obvious disobedience of the Senate. Until then, he is our elected leader, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, initially I was also against the idea of expanding into the east, what with our budget and all, but as with things at the moment, it is more wasteful to be pulling forces back, might as well use it.

With the sercuring of the western asia minor, more sea trade will also results, which the loss of which some of you bemoan with the starting of war with the plotemies and selucides.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: My congratulations to Praetor Coruncanius on his two great victories against the Seleucids. His tactics against the Seleucid phalanx line were exemplary and I will try to remember to emulate them if ever I am placed in a similar situation. But for now, the Seleucids have no armies in the field against us. The three armies visible on the map I presented earlier are destroyed, as were another three in the autumn offensive. This is a great triumph! How the tables have turned on our would-be invaders in less than a year!

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Originally Posted by Glaucus

If the First Consul fails, then at the end of his term we can discuss the penalty for his obvious disobedience of the Senate. Until then, he is our elected leader, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

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There is a rather astounded look on UPS's face as reads from a recently received letter, direct from the consul.

UPS - The consul...Consul Servius says that he can promise every ounce of land he has proposed in the east, and a minimum of Hadrumentum, Cartago, Thapsus, and Utica. Hippo Regius, Capsa, and Lepcis Magna cannot be absolutely promised, but are within a lucky reason.

If he does not deliver on these promises, the consul is prepared to stand trial. However, he holds every ounce of belief that this will not be necessary, as the next consular army will be disembarking for Afrika earlier than expected, within the next season, instead of two from now.

It is unfortunate that the first consul has chosen this course. The ten new settlements (two of which have been previously razed to the ground), will cost us a lot more money in garrisons and development than they will give us, except for Rhodes of course. We will also need much more (expensive) forces to guard that new border than it the previous two. This will no doubt be solved by hiring vast numbers of hideously expensive mercenaries. All in all, a financial nightmare. I can only hope the capture of Rhodes will slightly offset the financial damage we are about to do ourselves.

It seems we are determined to rule a great and weak empire filled with mud-baked huts instead of a mighty, smaller empire with marble cities. I wonder if future historians will see us as the bringers of civilization, instead of yet another conquering horde.

You know what, Senator Aureolus? You're right. But why not stop at just half of Asia Minor? You're such a god-like commander; it would be easy to take the whole thing! And while we're at it, why not Antioch? It is, after all, the Seleucid capital. Heck, what's stopping us from capturing the rest of the Levant? I hear it's really nice at this time of year. But that's just the start! After that, the majority of Seleucid metropoli lie across the desert! It's just a short walk to take Babylon and Seleucia, why not? But then, since we're destroying them, we might as well finish them off and take India too. Wouldn't that be great? Then our empire - excuse me, republic - would be really really big and we would be hailed as the greatest warriors ever and lots of people would throw us large parades featuring lots and lots of shiny confetti and beautiful women. Doesn't that just sound grand?

You, Senator Alexandriolus, are nothing but a spoiled child pointing at cities on a map and screaming "mine!" until someone lets you loose. So far the straits have been found to be easily defensible. I see no reason why we should abandon that position just to satisfy the quota of one man who is keeping track of his accomplishments so that he may one day be considered the greatest general ever to live.

UPS - You are a bit ill informed of our true financial situation Lucius.

For the record, when Consul Servius began his consulship, 14,000 Denarii was the seasonal balance available for use. The beginning of this season, (summer 254 bc), the first season of our consul's second year, has seen the season start with 20,000 denarii available for use. This is a 33% increase over the course of a single year. Now, quite surely, the taking of 2 mud-hovel cities in Asia Minor hasn't done us this great increase, but a combination of things.

The consul's new garrison program, which has been tested in and found to be quite valuable in Massillia. The consul's construction strategy throughout the Republic, which has boosted our ability to draw tax income without greatly upsetting the populace. And our small, but necessary conquests of Abydos and Nicomedia in Asia Minor.

Consul Servius has a far greatter level of economic and managerial acumen than you give him credit for. This season has seen the beginning of more expensive building projects, specifically occupations, the beginning or expansion of roman auxilia prefectures, and the expansion of the newly reorganised western fleet to accomodate a consular sized army.

The consul has made you yourself, the private promise, of 40,000 denarii a season profit by the end of his reign. That, a 100% increase, is only the increase expected over the next three years, the consul has four years left.

The marble houses you envision may not necessarily be finished in their construction by the time this consulship ends, as we simply don't have the necessary seasonal time available, but the money and pathway for such a vision will be available and clear.

(a hastily scribbled note from Appius Barbatus)

To the most illustrious Senate:

This will likely be my last communication with you for a good while, as I am preparing to carry out Consul Aemilius' orders and travel east. I pray that the Gods will smile on your endeavours and counsels in the behalf of our beloved Republic.

Also, if any of you have lost parchment recently in the Curia, please send a messenger to me and I will be able to restore it to you.

Vale.

Conscript fathers,

Altough I remain a skeptic about operations in the East, at least one good thing has come of this venture. Molon, the slayer of my friend and former co-consul Publius Pansa has been killed in Pergamon. Even as I remain distrutful of the ambitious Numerius Aureolus, I do wish to thank him and the men of the Legio V for relieving this burden from my heart.

Let our enemies beware !

Roman honour will not go unstatisfied !

A Consul's death will always be avenged !

Senators,

I have heard just QUITE enough! Senator Lucius Aemilius, it is clear you have certain issues which potentially stem from not receiving command of this Consular Army however, I will not hold any personal feelings such as this against you. You were not slighted by this Consul, needs required the armies deployment before you could join us….that is all.

It appears though that for clarity I must spell some certain facts out to the Senate.

I do not wish to speak ill of a former Consul but suffice to say that under the leadership of the pervious Consul the Republic suffered. Not on the Battlefield but economically and tactically.

Building plans were started that were neither economically viable or cost efficient. Troops were recruited with seemingly no cohesion or overall plan and an Invasion of Afrika was conceived…..a plan that, on the surface was brilliant! But without any substance OR co-ordination!

We were to strike at Afrika and Carthage with THREE armies……there was only one ready when the Consul was about to strike. However, I have said this before and will not drag up old hurts.

What IS important is that is appears that the Senate is not considering how long it takes to recruit, transport and deploy a fighting force! Do they believe that a Consular army that is required in Afrika is just plucked up by the hand of Mars himself and placed into position??

Let me spell it out. How long do YOU believe it takes a Consular army to be moved from a staging point to deployment? YES, the Consular army I am currently in command of WAS to be one of the spearheads of attack against Carthage but there was no support. A second army was to be presented but this wasn’t even in recruitment stage.

What would you do with a Consular army that is just sitting in the field costing coin and eating grain? You USE it Senators! That’s what you do….you make the best use of what armies you have for an army doing nothing is worth less than nothing…..

So, at that junction when the current Consul made his choice, what did we have before us?

We had Carthage before us but too strong to attack.
We had Carthaginian forces on OUR islands but a Senate unwilling to allow these to be removed.
We had the Seleucids SORELY pressing our Eastern flank and threatening or Greek cities….indeed they had already taken such a city AND killed several Senators!
We were constantly advised by the previous Consul and others that the SELEUCIDS were the greatest threat, that if we didn’t do something, the Seleucids would be knocking on the door of the Senate in a few years time!

Does the Senate forget those recent times?

Acting BECAUSE of this situation the Consul decided that the Consular army I now command would be sailed to the East to help DEFEND us. Yes…..defend.

Ships were constructed. A fleet assembled and we took to the seas.

Then, due to the martial prowess of my Grandfather, Senator Aureolus and the commands of the Consul the Roman forces already there proved more than adequate to defeat those “undefeatable” Seleucid forces.

However, by this time the Consular army was well underway and further from Carthage than it was from the Eastern front.

Would you have the Consul turn us about and sail back? What then if the Seleucids suddenly deployed another few Consular sized forces? Were we to turn about YET AGAIN?!?

Would you have this Consular army forever in the seas, costing coin and eating grain. Doing Nothing?

Nay Senators, due to the time it takes for these things to occur it is best to set a course of action, complete it and THEN decide what is needed and is best for the Republic.

THIS Consul is looking beyond his own tenure of leadership. There are no short term plans here and the Republic will be greatly enriched and in a clean and hearty state for the next Consul…..plans will be clearly laid out and easily understandable.

The Invasion of Afrika still took place as the Senate requested. The Consul laying his own life on the line to satisfy this request. Also, can the Senate say that the Consul has “ruled out” the full completion of this plan?

The plan against Carthage STILL requires those two armies that were not started at the beginning of the Consuls tenure of care. Can you say he has NOT started recruitment of these armies? Can you say for sure he will NOT fulfil this requirement?

Why is the Senate so Obsessed with conquest of Carthage immediately? Plans take time, it appears many are not willing to allow time to construct a proper plan and execute it in the best tactical manner. Was that perhaps WHY the previous Consul was committing to an ill conceived and ill supported invasion? It is clear that certain members of the Senate would have the Republic embark upon certain actions that would devastate us, and now they berate the current Consul as he FLATLY refuses to be goaded into such rash actions just to appease those who politic and plot.

Immediately as the Consul came into his tenure the Republic had to commit to defence and action against the Seleucids. Why is it that some people have such short memories of how it was in those first days and the urgency that the Senate themselves gave to such action?

It is true that we do not, perhaps, need this Consular army in the East anymore. However, once embarked it was folly for us to withdraw from such commitment. Is it not best that this army be used to ensure the security in the East now? Then perhaps, who knows where best it will be deployed again? West, East, North or South….to me it matters not! It may matter to the Republic though.

Do not berate the Consul for merely completing the tasks that he HAD to initiate all those months, years ago even.

As for a defensive/offensive posture in the East. The military idem that “Offence is the best form of Defence” always holds true.

Did we just continue to defend the crossing against the Gauls who constantly threatened at Massilia?

No, we went on the offensive, destroyed the Gauls heartlands and defeated the enemy. Perhaps, in hind-sight, we were wrong not to attempt to occupy more of their settlements but, at the time, we did what we thought was best and economically sound.

Is the situation in the East and Asia-Minor very different from that? Do we not face a similar situation, with an enemy bent on constantly throwing their armies at us? Would it not be best for the Republic to, again, sally forth and ensure the Republics stability by fatally injuring our enemies?

I do not preach the conquest of the Seleucid empire, what I do prescribe to is the establishment of a more defensible border and several buffer states between the Seleucids and some of the most advanced cities outside of Roma herself!

Asia-Minor is NOT Europe….otherwise it would be called Europe.

The Motions passed to abandon certain settlements in that area was based upon the assumption that we could not, under any circumstances, keep control of them under the Seleucid offensive. This has proved wholly inaccurate now as all have seen.

Carthage is still a Primary concern and one that this Consul chooses to deal with…..but WHEN it is tactically BEST for the Republic to do so and NOT when it pleases certain individual Senators!

This Consul is committed to ensuring the lasting security of the Republic. The construction of Forts to hold back our war-like neighbours. Committed to the continued investment in our internal infrastructure and committed to ensuring that HE passes on a healthy and powerful Republic to the next Consul.

I applaud senator Manius Coruncanius's verbosity, but there are some distortions of the truth and vile slanders I take exception to.

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Originally Posted by Braden

Senator Lucius Aemilius, it is clear you have certain issues which potentially stem from not receiving command of this Consular Army however, I will not hold any personal feelings such as this against you.

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As the current consul Servius will verify, I have repeatedly offered to take over dead-end positions like Viberi, in order that our less experienced generals can get some battle experience. On being asked what position I desired, I told him it mattered not to me, whatever was convenient for him. So this is clearly a vile slander.

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Originally Posted by Braden

I do not wish to speak ill of a former Consul but suffice to say that under the leadership of the pervious Consul the Republic suffered. Not on the Battlefield but economically and tactically.

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Except for some hollow phrases, I have not heard one concrete example of mistakes made on my part. I also consider this a vile slander.
If it had not been for the pressure put on me by the senate under the leadership of the warmonger Numerius Aureolus, a war with the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid Empire could have been avoided.

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Originally Posted by Braden

We were constantly advised by the previous Consul and others that the SELEUCIDS were the greatest threat, that if we didn’t do something, the Seleucids would be knocking on the door of the Senate in a few years time!

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Actually, I never said such a thing. On the contrary, on several occasions I advised the 'Seleucid threat' to be ignored and the Consular Army send to Carthage (It was already on the border of Sicily by that point).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Braden

As for a defensive/offensive posture in the East. The military idem that “Offence is the best form of Defence” always holds true.

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Ah, another proponent of endless expansion to the shores of the Indian Ocean in order to 'secure' our border.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Braden

Did we just continue to defend the crossing against the Gauls who constantly threatened at Massilia?

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Actually, we did, for a very long time, because it is such an excellent defensive position, just like the Bosporus strait was.

Lastly, I wish to state that my words in the senate offer this house the benefit of my wisdom accumulated in two terms of consul and over 30 years of fighting for the Republic. The consul himself has often expressed the value of this advice. This does not say my strategy and tactics are necessarily the best. The first consul may very well make true on all his claims. It is the first consul who makes the decisions. Yet, the moment we have 'heard enough' in this house we may as well appoint another king. We can never 'hear enough' in the senate.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:

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Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius

If it had not been for the pressure put on me by the senate under the leadership of the warmonger Numerius Aureolus, a war with the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid Empire could have been avoided.

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Ah, Lucius, it seems that you too have now joined the camp that seeks to rewrite history and blame me personally for being attacked by Ptolemy and Seleucia. Still, perhaps I should be grateful that you explicitly rejected such an absurd position while in office.

I would be interested to hear exactly how you think I provoked the war - surely you are not going to resurrect the canard about insignificant Debeltos being the spark? I would also be interested if you can find any evidence that I played a leadership role in the Senate during your time in office. It may be my imaginings, but at times it felt more like there was a vast pacifist conspiracy against me. Anyway, I was just a young tribune, scarcely turned twenty. I suspect you overestimate my importance.

As you say, it is the First Consul who leads. If we took actions that hold us responsible for other nations attacking us, I submit that the ultimate responsibility lies with you. If so, it would be quite a mistake. To blame the Senate and a young tribune for such a mistake seems rather unworthy of a man of your age and reputation.

But of course, I myself do not believe such an absurdity. The only mistakes were those of Ptolemy and Seleucia, as Molon has now found out, and as other successor generals and settlements will soon realise.

After two years of conflict with Seleucia and Ptolemy, surely Rome can unite around our struggle with tham, rather than foolishly scapegoat the men leading the war against them?

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Originally Posted by Lucius Aemilius

Except for some hollow phrases, I have not heard one concrete example of mistakes made on my part. I also consider this a vile slander.

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No, of course, Lucius, your period in office was flawless. Nonetheless, does not losing two Co-Consuls seem, at the very least, a little careless?

What I had “heard enough” of Senator was the constant impatience regarding a Conquest of Carthage and the harsh words spoken against the Consul, I am a stanch republican Sir, to suggest otherwise is likely to slander me as much as I have apparently slandered you.

The plans the Consul has are sound, I have been privy to many and like you, advise him on some aspects….though my word does not have the “gravitas” that yours does.

I do not wish to Slander sir but when I looked at the state of the Republic when the Consul took over….my mind spiralled! Why were their Cavalry in a Republican city as Garrison troops?? Why was there alie troops embarking for Tarentum? Why so many Roman troops seemingly stationed in cities awaiting orders? There are other economic plans also but I will speak no further other than to say that the situation was Confusing in the least.

Whilst, perhaps you did not directly state that the Seleucids were the greatest threat we faced, I have not had the chance to check the Senate records, it was certainly the impression within the Senate at the time that they were…..perhaps the defeat and killing of my dear tutor Senator Pansa had something to do with that?

Can you deny that this was the feeling in the Senate?

As for our historic issue at Massilia. What you say is at least partially true. The Republic did wait, we waited for the coin and a commander to perform the task.
Unfortunately due to that “delay” we were defeated, an Eagle taken and a Noble Roman’s name besmirched. Would you taunt fate again?

Senator, I do not doubt that you will perform what tasks are best for the Republic. What I call for now is that the Republic be patient with regards Carthage, it may even appear that our Consul may settle this issue ALONE shortly!

What will those voices in the Senate say about Carthage when our Consul controls their Capital city?

Criticise what you will but at least allow such things that are still in progress to become apparent before you globally condemn.

Do you at least accept that, it would be folly to reverse my Consular armies course now? A plan is set, it must be completed to ensure long term success and ascension for the Republic and woe for our enemies.

The Consul does not plan constant conquest. Why would a man commit to a fortified border if that border was to move?

You have your opinion and if you feel a fortified border in Asia-Minor is NOT the best course of action then you are entitled to that opinion and I will accept that. Obviously, what I cannot accept is this constant “why haven’t we invaded Carthage” nonsense, and with the latest Consul reports perhaps you feel the same about that now?

However, Molon is dead, will you not join me in a goblet of wine at his destruction, to Senator Aureolus’s continued health and the fulfilled vengeance of the Republic against him?

Later we will debate what is the best course in the East until the crows fly high above the Senate building and the sparrows have laid themselves abed.

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Originally Posted by Braden

Why were their Cavalry in a Republican city as Garrison troops?? Why was there alie troops embarking for Tarentum? Why so many Roman troops seemingly stationed in cities awaiting orders?

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The cavalry were the only troops fast enough to arrive there to supress the unrest before a revolt took place. The Auxilia garrisons were moving to Tarentum for transport to Southern Greece where they would take over garrison duties from the expensive mercenaries. As to the Roman troops, I am unsure what you mean. Doubtless, there was a good reason for that as well.

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Originally Posted by Braden

Can you deny that this was the feeling in the Senate?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Braden

What will those voices in the Senate say about Carthage when our Consul controls their Capital city?

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Hooray ?

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Originally Posted by Braden

Do you at least accept that, it would be folly to reverse my Consular armies course now?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Braden

However, Molon is dead, will you not join me in a goblet of wine at his destruction, to Senator Aureolus’s continued health and the fulfilled vengeance of the Republic against him?

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I'll definately second that :2thumbsup:

Good. Then it appears Senator Aemilius, we have reached an accord currently and hit upon a possible issue with regards the transition of power between Consuls.

The Senate should perhaps use this interim period to debate if there is a way that a Consuls “on-going” plans are better communicated to his successor to that there is no misunderstandings?

I trust that you know I will be drinking “with” you even though I am currently at sea. Besides the wine may steady my heaving stomach!

I do see a potential issue with Carthage. Should the Consul capture Carthago, what will he do? What should the Senate instruct him to do?

On the face of it, he has insufficient forces to hold the city but perhaps he is best to answer that question.

Personally, I feel it would be a sore shame and a reverse of his good fortune so far to abandon such a city as, like Byzantion before it, the city is such a prize as to be worth the keeping.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The issue of Carthage is an interesting one. I agree with Manius that it might be best to try to hold the city until the arrival of the Consular army frees up the Consul to move once more. I would be interested to hear the First Consul's intentions on this.

Abandoning Thapsus is quite understandable, but perhaps we can hold walled Carthage? If the Consul's intention is to break the Carthaginian armies in combat, surely holding Carthage will bring them to him like moths to a candle?

Whilst we await a response from the Consul on what his plans may be for Carthago, I have been reviewing the Motions in effect for this Consulship and request an update from the Consul on a few matters.

Firstly, Motion #11.07 – I cannot recall, have the relevant constructions been started as yet to permit citizenship for Capua and Ancona as yet? The Economy is starting to regain its vigour and the funds should be allocated for this soon if they have not been already.

Motion #11.11 – I wondered how progress goes upon this Motion? Has this had a significant impact in our main cities yet?

Motion #11.13 – I am aware of the progress relating to this motion but am not aware about the allocation of Chirurgeons to the armies in the region?

UPS - I have received a letter from our consul. It appears that Servius has found the Cartago siege to be another Lepcis Magnian victory, the only defenders were a unit of Carthage's 'sacred band'. They were said to have fought bravely, but our victory suffered such minimal losses against such a pitiful garrison that writing a report would do nothing more than waste space.. however. He sends a message of deep concern to him for your review.

https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a5...ts/ibnorth.jpg
These Iberian forces were encountered last season, they were hidden in the woods and blocked our way to establishing the proposed fort on the western river. They have not moved this season. Servius suggests a minor upgrade to the strength of the legion to try and appeal to their logic and see that a confrontation would benefit neither side.

https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a5...lipboard10.jpg
The Iberian forces near our Comata fort are also of deep concern. The fort has not been besieged, but we feel quite strongly that they are trying to discern the legion's strength. The consul would like to up the garrison with mercenaries until the Iberians move on, at which point it will be upgraded to a full consular sized legion.

Oh, and due to the significant number of developments this season, the consul has been considering releasing yet another report, although somewhat early, he feels the circumstances warrant such.

(OOC - Much has happened since the last report at the beginning of the summer season, so I'll announce later tonight when I've put up the next report, I'd like to get a few more things done before then, but I'll let everybody know in the ooc thread when it's ready.)

This development worries me somewhat. Recall that the Macedonians made several incursions into our territory before launching an actual invasion. They may be looking for weak spots. I would recommend concentrating forces as much as possible, as they may not be able to resist attacking a weak force if they come across one, if their intention is indeed to get into a war.

May I ask the consul to post a map of as much of the current world as we know of along with his new report? The situation on other wars, such as the Iberia vs Germania war will be invaluabe to this house.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Praetor Corucanius makes a valid point, but we should recall that ultimately facing off with Macedonia did not avert war. I was but a youth at the time, but I believe they struck at a weak spot - perhaps even a settlement - well away from where we were confronting their most provocative moves. If so, I would advise that each province bordering Iberia have a significant force of men, so there are no easy pickings. [occ: in MTW, the AI would attack if your force in a border province was weak - maybe RTW is the same?]

I would also recommend that we move at least one and preferably two Lower House generals to Gaul to face off against a potential Iberian incursion. I am not up to date on their current location and assignments, but I wonder if Qintus Libo and/or Valerius Paullus are best positioned to assume such a duty? While deterrence must be the priority, we should also prepare for the contingency of war. A competent general might be able to defeat a much larger Iberian army, whereas otherwise we could lose an entire legion in a sneak attack.

We are sorely missing Augustus Verginius from the Lower House, but nevertheless, I ask that my father-in-law be moved away from immediate danger. It would be a poor end to an illustrious career if he were killed while attending to civic duties. (ooc: die in an autoresolve).

I would end by saying that we should not be over-alarmed by the Iberian movements. My astrologer and the augurs have not predicted imminent war with that faction, although I admit their vision is not always perfect. Iberia is still locked in a war with Germania. And we, as a Republic, are considerably more powerful than she. Iberia may prefer to focus on the conflict to her north, so long as we to her east do not appear weak.

UPS - We know nothing of the war between Iberia and Germania, other than that it is still occurring. We have no spies, diplomats or other men with significant enough knowledge in that area, or any area outside of direct Roman interest, to provide anything more than the maps which are currently available in the consular reports. If there is a quick responce to this issue that doesn't require an inordinate amount of seasonal income, I will propose a resolution to this problem to the consul.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: In the absence of the Senate Librarian, I asked one his scribes to compile some simple information on our situation relative to our rivals.

As you can see, we have overtaken Seleucia as the pre-eminent power in the known world:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3...llsu254jv4.jpg

You can also see the dramatic effect of our recent victories over Seleucia on the balance of power:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/2...rysu254th2.jpg

However, it should be noted that our military power is still only a third of that of all our enemies combined.

Conquests have made us the most populous faction:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/7020/popsu254mx4.jpg

Our number of provinces has risen at a rapid rate since the end of the Apollonia mission and the vigorous prosecution of war into Greece and beyond:

https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/...ndsu254iu0.jpg

The loss of trade income following war with Ptolemy and Seleucia has affected all three parties:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5...cesu254ox8.jpg

The present First Consul has made progress in improving our balance. However, Seleucia appears to have bounced back to an alarming degree. This suggests that, while we may have crushed her armies in the field, she has the resources to replace them and come back at us in strength. Ptolemy has not recovered, while Iberia and Carthage earn significantly less than we do.

After a very shallow period following the outbreak of war with Macedon, Illyria and Thrace, we do appear to be producing more: (ooc - is this buildings or what?)

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9...onsu254ok8.jpg

The graphs also reveal something on the state of the Germano-Iberian conflict. There appears to be something of a territorial impasse, although Iberia's military rises while that of Germania falls.

Many thanks, Numerius. I am sure I speak for all present when I this information will help us gather a better picture of the world, no matter how removed we may be physically from the front lines.

Well well senators, what have we here? After I return to Rome I hear of this kind of behaviour by our barbarian neighbours. The senate was foolish to neglect the Iberian threat, and now they seem to have picked the perfect moment to strike, when our troops are trapped in the deserts of Africa and fighting the Greeks iin the Asia Minor region.

Personally, my point of view (if members of this august body respect it) is that the wars must be brought to a halt. Our holdings have extended too far in the East, and our merchants are running riot far away from the reach of the law, growing ever more corrupt, reckless and extravagant the deeper we go into the Greek lands. The Carthaginian campaign is a worthy one, though, I must say. These barbaric people are too powerful and too close to our lands for my liking, and the threat from them should be neutralised, as must that of the Iberian scum.

I am confident that the Greeks will see the reasoning and logic behind this proposal, and will too want to sue for peace, and resume normal relations. Our economy should skyrocket if this should happen, and our citizens will be able to live in peace, not needing to fear the Greeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Consular report

The complications never seem to end

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THEN STOP MAKING MORE COMPLICATIONS BY INVADING TERRITORY WE DON'T NEED TO INVADE!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by econ21

However, Seleucia appears to have bounced back to an alarming degree. This suggests that, while we may have crushed her armies in the field, she has the resources to replace them and come back at us in strength

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AT LAST!!! By the gods, AT LAST!!!!! It has finally penetrated into that golden-haired head of yours that Seleucia has a vast empire with limitless resources. Furthermore their empire, unlike our empire is a homogenous and well-developed one with every province able to contribute a wide range of troops.

How many times have I and others warned about this? And how many times have Numerius Aureolus and Servius Aemlius and Manius Coruncanius listened to these warnings? I'll tell you how many times oh noble Senators of the greater Roman Empire - not once! Time and again my pointing this out has been ignored. Until now. Clearly Numerius has stopped daydreaming about his own beauty or his next conquest long enough to actually think about the wider picture.

And to boot, we now have a nervous Consul and others wringing their hands about Iberia. Again, HOW MANY TIMES DID I WARN ABOUT THIS AND WAS IGNORED??????

I give up Senators, I give up. Numerius, feel free to conquer every city between Byzantion and the Indian Ocean, I won't stand in your way. I may even propose it at the next session of the Senate. But I might enjoy watching you weep when there is nowhere else left to conquer.

*rips off Senatorial toga and storms out of the house*

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:

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Originally Posted by Valerius Paullus

It has finally penetrated into that golden-haired head of yours that Seleucia has a vast empire with limitless resources.

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Senator, this is is not exactly news to me:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numerius Aureolus

Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies....

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The point is what do we do about it? My proposal is that we make the Seleucid Empire a little less vast and their resources a little more limited. But apparently that is just crazy talk.

I am shocked by the words of Senator Valerius Paullus, he calls our beloved Republic an “Empire”?? Why does he think so…..

We are no “Empire”, WE do not and have not initiated these wars….but sure as the sun arises each day by Jupiters grace we will certainly FINISH these wars!

Senators, does Senator Paullus forget that all we have strived for is Peace and that at every turn we are turned back from our neighbours who covet our cities and our coin. Our Diplomats have long sought peaceful resolution to the issues we have around us but we constantly find that the ONLY talk that is understood by our enemies is the singing voice of a swinging sword!

Iberia has NOT being ignored, forts were built to defend our borders against her and may I remind the Senate that although Iberia appears “threatening” and certainly is an issue the Consul is aware of, Iberia has yet to launch any attacks against us. With the bravado so common with the Barbarians of the North, the Iberians constantly foray into our lands and return safely home to speak tales of how “brave” they were, how “successful” as warriors they are and needless to say how Large their Testiscolos are….

One day, perhaps, they will have built sufficient false bravado, or enlarged their Testis enough, from their own stories that they tell around the fires in their barbarian hovels to actually ACT upon them and strike at us, but let me say this….we will be ready.

We are unwilling, and rightly so, to pre-emptively strike against Iberia whilst they remain neutral to us. It is also needless whilst they remain nothing more than bluster and hot air. If or when they prove themselves more than that, I will be happy to be re-assigned to aid in their destruction as we did their fellows in Gaul. Also, let me remind the Senator that Iberia is still stuck in a long and protracted war with our Allies the Germains.

Suffice to say that we cannot act or re-enforce if we do not know WHERE to act or re-enforce. All we can do is build fortifications and wait. The Consul has announced plans for at least one Consular sized formation in the region, I feel the Senate should be content that he is aware of an dealing with the situation in the West.

The Situation in the East will be finished soon enough. As Numerius Aureolus suggests, we act to reduce the threat now and the threat in the future. Not only from Seleucia but also the Ptolomites. Perhaps when they have both been shown the full force of our wrath will they succumb to a negotiated peace……history tells us this will still not work, but I always live in hope.

Senator Paullus, your warnings have not gone unheeded, perhaps you would feel happier if we initiated a strike against Iberia and stop all this nonsense? Perhaps you would feel happier when more legions are in place? However, as I have stated time and again, the building of new legions takes time and coin….many Senators appear to have insufficient funds of one but an excess of the latter.

I am happy to say that with our Current Consul we are fighting but ONE war. The War against Seleucia but through that we will chastise not only them but also the Ptolomites.

What of Carthage, you say. Isn’t that a war…..well Senators, how can it be a war when we so easily capture their own Capital city? How can it be a war when our Consul, with but a handful of Roman cohorts has managed to out flank and out fight forces near twice his size? Soon, another Legion will land and that “war” will be all but over.

Soon the war against Seleucia will be over and our borders re-defined so that they and the Ptolomites are FORCED to recognise we have the Gods GIVEN right for peace!