Good call TC I agree.
Having to go back to it repeatedly is not a great idea.
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Good call TC I agree.
Having to go back to it repeatedly is not a great idea.
Has any of you tried accepting the husband for Judda and then checked whether any offers were made for Meckil as I suggested?
I agree with TC's and Ituralde's plan, this would give all the houses adequate replacement avatars. The von Mahrens do have a history of involvement with Austria and they are next to them on the tree. I think there are enough IC reasons to meet an OOC need.
It's about as an elegant a solution as we're going to get at this phase.
I did it again. Maybe I can set up a fortune teller booth for those that want to know the future. On turn 6 their was suitor for Judda and turn 7 a suitor for Meckil.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
I would like to wait a few turns and see if this will play out for the Chancellor. If not then TC suggestion to move the one family over would make the most sense.
So if what Northnovas says happens in our game then we can have Meckil take the turn 7 proposal. This could do the trick.
Based on what I'm hearing, I will accept any husband for Judda and keep my fingers crossed for Meckil. Northnovas can be in the driving seat on this - if he wants to, he can take Judda's husband or one of Jonas's kids at any time.
A related issue is whether we intend to recruit more players for this PBM as we get more avatars? If so, then the case for moving the von Mahren line to Austria, as TC suggested, is very strong. My inclination is to worry about that at the next Diet, when presumably we will have more than one spare avatar and thus can potentially meet the demand from new players.
EDIT: On other matters, I need to hear from Dutch_guy about his orders for the Franconian Household Army.
Ituralde.I guess this means we have a little story line to build if you will adopt my "first born". I think this allows us to build a little IC twist.:yes:
EDIT: Wouldnt one possible scenario could be that someone of the Austrians takes Jonas Von Mahren from me,so that the whole line moves to Austria. We still have Hedewigis Von Saxony not married from the second Franconian generation and i could take the avatar,who ever marries her?
Either way I think it's best to at least attempt an IC explanation for all of this. Presumably with you Kagemusha or maybe even go with von Mahren all the way. After all, if you look at it from a geographical standpoint the country of Mahren should fall under the government of Austria, since we're in command of Prague.
I also have to agree with TinCow that in light of expanding the House of Austria to more than three players with avatars, a whole line would be needed to switch over.
As far as the Judda problem goes, this would still only net one avatar and I also like the neatness that the von Mahren line directly borders the House of Austria. :2thumbsup:
I think you are right.Maybe i should just move to Austria along my whole "family". This would give Austria quickly lot of available avatars.I think you,me and Dutch_guy could create a twist to make that happend in coordination with the story.:smash:
If I remember correctly there was a brief period where Jonas was attached to Austria to guard her northern borders from the Poles, but no military exchange came out of that. Maybe use that as a first contact between him and Leopold?
Yes.And he was even given right to administrate Prague for a while. I think that a little starting story for reasons for the Von Mahren family to move to Austria is starting to cook inside my head.:yes:
A lot of seconders there for my pre-seconded Edicts. Maybe I should have made that clearer. :beam:
Please note there is a discrepancy in the voting post. CA 8.2 is listed in the check boxes to vote on but it is actually CA 8.3 in the description. I'm voting for CA 8.3 in the description.
Well you said 8.6 was only seconded by AG and 8.7 by NN, so I figured you needed a second seconder for each :D
Btw, even though the army commander title is a bit controversial following some discussion here, I think Hans is one now after attacking Acre? That army was himself and 7 other units.
Metz, Zagreb, Milan and Genoa currently lack build queues.
Thanks for updating the C&G reports topic econ :)
Also, I made some small fixes to a few triggers in the fixes (one of which being a copy/paste error that didn't show up in the log).
Please find version 1.23a here:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix123a.rar
Only EDCT is affected, so if you have 1.23, you only need to extract that one file (you can extract all if you want though)
This might be of use to us:
As afaik we can't set factionheirs yetQuote:
Open the console during your campaign by pressing the ~` key.
Now type:
QUOTE
give_trait <character> Factionheir
This is case sensitive and does not include the <>.
nicked it from someone who nicked it from someone, etc etc
Sorry about that - I can't edit the vote, so I will renumber CA 8.3 to be CA 8.2. It should be clear what people are voting for - ie what is described.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
Is there a command to remove factionheir status from an existing heir? If not, I don't see how adding a second heir would work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I was thinking of this the other day. Basically the use of that would be that the current faction leader and heir get together to decide who will be the heir of the heir, or who should be according to medieval code. Then before the current faction leader dies, we can give the appointed character the faction heir trait so he becomes heir once the current heir becomes leader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I haven't actually tried doing that yet, but reports seem to say it does work.
Well afaik there can only be one heir, so it automatically removes it. Tho it would be best someone would try it firstQuote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Using that console command does not remove the current heir. All it does is allow you to set who will be the next heir after the current heir is either dead of becomes the leader.
Not the whole enchilada, but it could still be useful. . .
This would allow Henry as the paterfamilias to set who would be heir after Jobst and take the decision out of the AI's deranged hands.
Well, if it works like Factionheir says, it is a good find, Stig. I will put it in the Citadel FAQ, which currently says you can't change the heir. :bow:
For the purposes of this FAQ, it gives us the power to choose who will be Prince after Prince Jobst. My immediate reaction is that at the next Diet we ask who is interested (in character) and have an election. I don't know if anyone has any better ideas or objections to that.
EDIT: While I was posting Overknight did indeed have a better idea...
I'll make a quick test run to verify it works using my method too as opposed to the standard method of killing the current heir. Stay tuned.
OK, it didn't quite work out the way I wanted, and the exact mechanics the game uses to determine who becomes the next heir continue to be elusive (even did a few searches through the files to no avail - I would need RTW files as a comparison, which I don't have anymore)
Currently, it seems the only way you can choose the next heir is by killing the current heir after giving your desired heir the "Factionheir" trait. For the purpose of a PBM, that might not be desired as players love their avatars.
For those who want to know who becomes the next heir anyway, click the spoiler button. Do not click it unless you want to know! You have been warned!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Well there is a command called remove_trait, but I can't get it to working on the Princes as because of their title it says that their name is invalid.
I tried all that as you can imagine ;)
Even gave everyone except the desired heir the Exheir trait and that wouldn't fix it.
As for how to use remove/give trait, you can only use it on characters that have a firstname only OR that you own (using "this") OR have a lastname but that was "lost" due to obtaining a title (the Something).
On another matter, one dumb question: how do you end an alliance? (If I have to end ours with the Moors...)
Send a diplomat or princess and you get the option to inform them of ending the alliances (or you could just attack them ~D )
mmm pityQuote:
I tried all that as you can imagine ;)
Even gave everyone except the desired heir the Exheir trait and that wouldn't fix it.
As for how to use remove/give trait, you can only use it on characters that have a firstname only OR that you own (using "this") OR have a lastname but that was "lost" due to obtaining a title (the Something).
I don't know about in M2TW, but in RTW the game still required the use of the general's original name when editing traits, even if it was displayed differently due to traits (the Mean, the Chivalrous, etc.). Perhaps entering Prince Jobst's full name (Jobst von Salza) might work.
It did in RTW but they messed up something in M2TW so that doesn't work anymore for give/remove trait. It still works for character_reset and move_character though.
As for ending alliance, what Stig said. It is a huge rep hit though when you do it so future alliances are very unlikely and AI allies will betray alliances more easily.
Another option is to try to do something that they find really, really insulting. Sometimes this will cause your allies to break off the alliance on their own, which I believe doesn't effect your reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
I've updated to 1.02 including 1.23a of the fixes. I can once again fight battles, no thanks to direct2drive.
BTW that was a huge patch, it took longer to install than the game itself.
Are there any adjustments I should make to my playing style, particularly battles, considering the changes in the patch?
Not, really: your playing style fighting battles is exemplary already. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by OverKnight
The big deal, of course, is that the shield bug is fixed but this impacts the key spears vs knights contest less than you might think because most early cavalry also have shields. Spearmen [i]are[i] less pitiful now, and cavalry should avoid them frontally, but you were doing that anyway. I've found if anything knights have become more robust now (e.g. when caught in cities) thanks to the net +8 to their overall defence from fixing their shields.
There's nothing to worry about too much OK.
It's certainly worth playing as the English now as the Billmen and DFK (I think) are two handed units and can now actually do some damage to horsies.
With the Shield Bug fixed also then things get back to being slightly more balanced.
I have to say though, that having played a Long English Campaign (pre 1.2 patch) and now a long Scottish campaign (post 1.2 patch) on VH...I'm kind of worried I'm missing the point when it comes to battles.
I'm near the 2/3 mark of the Scottish campaign and I have no chance of getting the 45 provinces I need. This was the exact outcome of my English campaign when I ended with about 18 provinces.
Given Econ's praise of OK's skills, which seem to be about the same a few other gentlemen in the HRE team...I think I'm pretty average when it comes to battles.
I've studied medieval warfare as part of the politics and history degree at uni so I know all the tactics and can talk with the Pro's relatively easily. Plus I've been slashing away with the CA games since Shogun...I really get the impression I need to do a bit more steam rolling at the beginning to have a chance.
What are everyone's average province holdings after 50, 100,150 and 200 turns?
Thanks for the help guys. I've played 7 turns in a HRE campaign with 1.2, and I'm allied to 4 factions, meaning the diplomacy seems to be less crack headed. When I ally with someone, my relations actually improve with them. This sounds like common sense but that didn't happen before.
Since it's the start of the game, most of my battles have been sieging rebels. I've noticed the defensive AI for sieges is a bit more aggressive, I had the Florence rebels swarm out and try to take my ram out.
Thanks for the praise econ, but the last few battles against the Egyptians weren't exactly fair. I had a large advantage in cav and used it. I think the only battle where I've truly pulled a rabbit out of my hat was Bern, my favorite battle, and I still lost 2/5 of my men.
I'm confused AG, are you concerned with your battle or campaign skills because of your slow start? I guess if you're looking for help you could try econ's M2 faq stickied in the citadel. I've found it helpful. Once Ah-nold comes of age, I'm sure you'll see many enemies driven before you.
What you could try is take some old pre-battle saves and see if you can replicate the strategy and results of the battles from the reports. You could learn a few more tricks and have a benchmark for yourself.
So we are now using 1.2?
Also, where can I get the relevent KOTR fix? And what do I have to do with Medifix?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
The link is in the first post in this thread. It overwrites Medifix, although to install 1.2, I did a complete uninstall and reinstall of M2TW so did not have to worry about it.Quote:
Also, where can I get the relevent KOTR fix? And what do I have to do with Medifix?
Sorry OK I missed the link part of my logic.
My battle skills seem to be holding me back when it comes to the campaign objectives.
I usually have a nice robust economy going (minus the America's as I have not been there yet), my diplomacy skills and ancillary units always contribute soI have a pretty well rounded approach to the strategies available.
I've just had absolutely no possible chance of gaining 45 provinces.
If I look at the current state of our PBM. I would love to be in that position at this stage of the game.
Well, if you wanna know how we did it, the threads describing it are all there. :clown:
I also couldn't refuse to enter the marriage carousel and after Judda got married there came proposals for Meckil and after that even for Demuth of Hamburg, although the last candidate was somewhat inferior. So I'm confident that Meckil will at least marry, still to attract more Austrians I need those von Mahrens so I'm gonna contact Kagemusha and he will contact dutch_guy and I think we'll work something out. :2thumbsup:
OK, in general, only playstyle differences will be that cav charges are less powerful overall, even against unshielded units which I found a bit weird considering the basic troops (archers/peasants) did not have shields to begin with and their compensation factor was not changed either neither was the cav mount mass. No more targeting the backrow and having your cav mow through front and hit half the back I'm afraid.
Spears are drastically more effective against cavalry and will generally beat them in a head-on battle. Halberds are now utterly useless (the ME version anyway, haven't tried the Euro version yet but will do so in the next couple of days) Pikes are still as bad as before. Archers are slightly less effective due to shields being fixed but more accurate due to new projectiles.
Hey all, how's it going?
I just noticed that in elections I don't have any extra influance (votes?) and I thought that between Household army commander and govenor of Genoa I'd get at least 1 extra, it's not a big deal as none were really close, but it may be a factor in later elections.
that sucks that the faction Hier is still basically Random.
Sorry, Stuperman - my error. The play list table in the governor's report thread has you with +3 influence. I've fixed the poll results to include it. It makes CA 8.1 pass by the slimmest of margins - what did people have against it? I thought it would be uncontroversial.
No worries, I wasn't that concerned.
I didn't like the Kaiser can choose the next head of household part, I thought that power should reside with the resiging head of household. But I can see how the kaiser might want/need that power to maintain loyalty of his households.
edit: anyone else finding the org amazingly slow?
Yes, usually around this time. It's picked up but was really hanging there 20 minutes ago.
I thought that might be it. I guess I was thinking of where a Duke resigns under a cloud, as Ulrich did, then appointing your own successor seems less appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
Aw crap, I missed the vote. Sorry guys.
Wow that's actually a tough battle you're facing econ21. 18 units of decent spears, 4.5 units of horse archers, 4 units of foot archers, 3.5 cavalry units, 2 generals, and 2 ballistae. Though your pavise crossbows can probably win the missile duel, you'll be hard pressed to hold a melee line if they hit you all at once. Good luck, and try not to make this the shortest Chancellorship in PBM history.
If he's lucky he can make it out alive like Hans did against the Hungarians :D
What a way to lift the pressure :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
:balloon2:
All right, I am going in. Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
Good luck Econ.Show them hell!:2thumbsup:
Concerning CA 8.1. The additional power that goes to the Kaiser is only in case the current Duke resigns. It is additional to the wording of the Charter now, so Dukes still get to choose their heir who will follow them when the die.
At least that's how I see it. :beam:
That's how I and my Bavarian lawyer read it as well.
The main part of the equation is that the command of the captain is the one that counts and not that of Henry, as the captain is the main commander of the battle. So if the captain dies, all of Henry's troops take a morale hit. If Henry dies too, mass rout is almost guaranteed...
That said, Henry's troops will not be as strong in staying their ground as they would be if Henry was commanding the battle - another deciding factor given that it will be a long battle with attrition being the key, with neither side having superior cavalry power.
Egypt has an advantage in having several mamluk archers on high experience that will wreak a bit of havok if they manage to surround his army and charge his rear. Also, the few swords are going to make breaking through the saracen militia a tough job. They are roughly on par with Armoured seargeants and deadly against cavalry.
Further, the ballistae won't be too much of a deciding factor unless they can catch Henry out in the open but the lone catapult can turn the tide of battle.
For tactics, I would think that setting up on a hill or small height advantage point is imperative. The problem will be that Henry's army will not enter battle in its completeness so he is restricted timewise to get to a good position from one of the corners. Charging out to take out the siege equip should be a priority, although a dangerous one. Secondly he has to hope for the enemy generals to charge in at some point and manage to run spears through the bodyguard to surround and kill it. Again, not easy when you are outnumbered in spears too. I think I'll try that battle later for fun :)
Anyone else have any thoughts on that battle while we wait and pray for econ?
I think the key is to try and take on the enemy armies one at a time. From looking at the map, it appears that the middle-strength army (with almost all the horse archers and the ballistae) will be coming in from the top right, while econ21 will be coming in from the bottom right. If he can rush up and destroy that one before the main force closes on him, he might be in a good position. I would actively fear sitting back and waiting for the enemy attack unless the terrain was ridiculously good. That massive saracen militia force will be very difficult to hold off it it is allowed to attack all at once.
Splintering the enemy armies will be complex and difficult with their decent sized cavalry complements... Hence my instinct to try and eliminate the horse archers first. The star players for HRE in this battle are the pavise crossbowmen, but they will only be able to really inflict damage if they can keep up the barrage over a long period. If the enemy advances quickly, they won't get many shots in at all before it's all over.
Without being able to see the terrain of the battle map, my tactic would be to destroy the mid-sized army and whatever else can be taken without serious loss, then withdraw.
I was thinking of taking out the reinforcements first, but the problem is the terrain. HRE troops exhaust very quickly in deserts while Egyptian troops are adapted to it. By the time Henry manages to reach the reinforcements, chances are the main army is also almost upon him from his left flank, as they will ignore the 2 horse archer main army.
Chasing down the enemy Mamluks will be a big feat as well with no fast moving cavalry that can overtake them. If the AI were smart, it would encircle Henry's army and deplete all arrows before charging him. Possibly retreating in between to regain some stamina. Having a static position makes it more difficult for the attacker to do that I think as your xbows will be well positioned to shoot.
A point will be to have a spear unit or two in the rear facing away from the main army so as to prevent a sudden rear charge. AI loves to do that with depleted cav units.
One major disadvantage in the battle over a normal single player battle is the heighened need to keep Henry and Ulrich alive. Henry's massive, triple silver chevron bodyguard and Ulrich's small but gold chevroned bodyguards are fabulous shock troops and would certainly be key to any attempt to win the battle. I would be very afraid of losing one or both in the process though. They both have decent +hp traits, but they will probably have to end up doing many charges into the spears to try and break them from the flanks. That is a very dangerous propostion, even for high quality cavalry like that with high hp generals.
The pilgrims won't help much either. They will get massacred in combat and break easily. That will be a morale hit for anything near them.
I'd deploy the pilgrims away from my main line, use them to keep someone busy (for a very short time most likely) while the 'real' troops fight.
Although it's cheap, I've had success deploying men very close to the red line, facing re-enforcements, effectively putting the reenforcements into combat immediately, helps stop cav xharges too.
The setup for econ21 is, frankly, really bad. Because the solitary Turkomen unit is the main army, he won't get to deploy on the battlefield. Unless he is ridiculously lucky and the southeast corner of the map is a defensive hill, he's going to have to rush his men all over the place just to get into a defense. By the time they get there, they'll be tired and probably will have very little rest before they are assaulted. The HRE army is also much weaker than it looks. The peaseant crossbowmen, pilgrims, and peasant archers will be of relatively little value in the fighting, and just those five units account for over 30% of his entire manpower. The Turkomen will be of relatively little use in a melee as well, meaning that 40% of all his men will be useless when the lines converge.
The more I look at it, the less I like it. It's a bad, bad situation.
If Henry was the main army, I'd say it would have been an easy victory, as he would have decent morale Turkopoles as opposed to the normal very bad morale ones. Those could be great then to charge into the enemy rear and enticing the generals to run after them. TC is quite right to say though that a lot of the army is 'junk'. Actually, pavise crossbows are too in melee. I think even when they were defending my walls in my Sicilian campaign, they got overrun by either merc spearmen or a depleted unit of dismounted huscarls.
Miracles are always possible though. I had for example a unit of crusader knights with no experience get to experience 7 in one battle against an egyptian jihad army because they killed ~400 men with their repeated charges while the AI was passively walking towards my position. Maybe econ is able to exploit that with his bodyguard. Risky though, as bodyguards are slower than anything the Egyptian army here has. Kind of wish he had any mailed knights left.
Btw, I noticed he didn't post the save, so might not be possible to get the exact Egyptian army to attack me.
He does. There's a full strength double silver chevroned group of mailed knights with the main army. I expect they will be used to depletion.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Ahhh I didn't see those. Well then there's hope :)
400 on small unit sizes ~= 800 on large. That means those mailed knights with luck could take out this many infantry. With a lot of luck.
Hmmmm. . .I expected econ to manuever around Aleppo a bit and use local superiority in numbers to wear down the Egyptians before going after the main force. Stick and move, if you will.
I'm worried too, even if we have a victory in this battle, odds are good our forces will be severely depleted in the Levant. Adana and Acre aren't quite up to the task yet of replenishing our losses.
Perhaps I should have played my last turn as Chancellor a bit more conservatively by keeping the southern armies around Acre and have Hummel go directly to Adana.
Of course that's hindsight talking. To be honest I thought we'd drained the Egyptians manpower a lot more than it seems we actually have. All those Jihad victories went to my head, I guess. :laugh4:
Still if anyone can pull this out of the fire, it's econ.
Edit: Using a single unit to "blockade" cities is an interesting tactic. Horse archers are a good choice because they're like battlecruisers, they can outrun anything bigger than them, and outshoot anything faster.
hi is there any way i can join this as an agent avatar? i dont have 1.1 so i dont want to play battles, but i want to have a part of this cuz its cool.
Welcome!
Do you own the game, if so what version? If it's 1.2, that is what we're now using.
We are using 1.02, not 1.01 anymore.
OK We did, except for 1 full stack north of Adana. But since econ gave them cash and this is an attack during the egyptian turn, its kind of expected. Especially since the AI isn't bound to hiring limits as the human is (in terms of unit pool)
True FH, but in 1200, before I handed over the reins, there were still Egyptian armies massing around Antioch. . .
The pic from my last report:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The money will certainly help them, but unless they hire mercs it will be in the near future, not just yet.
Whatever the outcome, Outremer is sure to stay interesting.
Edit: I was unaware that the AI ignores manpower pools, that might explain why they blow through the money we give them so fast.
Yup, saw that pic. The captain led stack in the north is the one I was talking about. The incoming third stacks are city garrisons as far as I know, meaning we could sneak through the back door and take all their settlements.
Best would be to retreat on Acre and double the strength. From their see what they do. Attack that city east of Acre, then move on Aleppo and Antioch. Jeruzalem is a buffer state for us. Once the northern Egyptian troops are defeated it's over for them.
Yep, I like Stig's idea.
Though why don't we turn around and attack Cairo or their capital?
Because we want to let them live and not win the game just yet I think. Although personally I'm not opposed to playing post victory conditions. Not that anything is different then, as we have the glory bonus already from taking Rome.
Yeah, once we finish it just press continue! Are we striving to complete the victory conditions? We already have Rome!
My plan is to leave the Egyptians with Gaza (the fortress just east of Jerusalem) so there will always be a credible Islamic threat to Jerusalem. I want Outremer to be a defensive kingdom, at least for now. I want to take the five settlements I mentioned as constituting Outremer, but then hunker down and wait for the Mongols. Of course, other Chancellors and the next Diet may overrule things, but that's the game plan for the next 9 turns. It's purely an OOC thing - what I think will help us have a fun campaign that continues until we face the Timurids and get to America.
Battle report coming up.
Never knew you had breakfast at 1:12 am in the morning econ ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
So did you get em on the first try? Any generals die?
Great battle, econ!
And now Ulrich has three gold chevrons!
It was actually an easy battle - the main tension was not losing poor old Henry. The reason is that predicted by Tincow, who was on the ball, as usual:
And I was very reckless, as I had no idea that would be the terrain until I blundered into the battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincow
But it was great fun - it reminded me of those old MTW battles, where you fend off repeated waves of enemies.
I'll upload the savegame, so people can play it for themselves if they want and so they can see where things stand after 1200 (just press end turn).
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1200-3.zip
Congrats to a battle well fought econ. I was especially surprised at the early routing of the Egyptians on Ulrich's side.
Indeed, very nice going. :yes: I particularly liked the splitting of the report. Made for more dramatic reading.