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A Franconian messenger enters the Diet.
:balloon2:Quote:
It seems we're losing good men at a high rate indeed, von Kassel will be missed by us all. Just like Ehrhart will, he was too young to leave this world - but at least he did so honourably.
Yours sincerely,
Duke Kastillien.
A Bavarian messenger enters the Diet.
Quote:
To my dear Father and the to the Most Noble Members of the Imperial Diet,
I feel it is my duty to warn you about the unrest plaguing the civic order in northern Italy. It has come to my attention during my stay in this region that three cities in particular: Bologna, Marseille and Florence suffer from a generalized lack of patriotism. Several other areas I found to be also agitated, these include Milan, Venice and Geneoa.
If this situation was to be left alone, I fear the level of agitation would require a strong answer from the Empire, armed repression and potentially even military action. However, before reaching this dire level, the current situation could potentially represent a risk for the economical well being and growth of the region. I insist on this last point as northern Italy is of such a vital importance to the maintenance of our troops stationed in the Holy Land.
In the next few months I will apply myself to find potential solutions to these issues.
For Bavaria and the Empire,
Markus Steffen
Count of Marseille
Matthias Steffen enters the Diet and speaks:
This is a farce! My brother was sent into battle, on Austrian lands no less, with a mere unit of Teutons and his own retainers! Where was the Austrian Household Army, or the rest of his Army that he had at Zagreb? And if he is a "provisional" Knight, why wasn't his force enlarged since he left Zagreb, or at least Mercenaries hired to assist him? Not to mention the sheer cowardice of the Budapest garrison. Their commander should be stripped of rank and set to building watchtowers for such incompetence!
At least if we're going to send him into battle against such odds, we should give him the rank he deserves. Some of our men had been made Knights because they ran down some peasant who brandished his pitchfork in the wrong direction! End this joke of a not-quite-a-Knighthood!
Bavarian Honor demands it!
Matthias sits down in the Bavarian section with his arms crossed and a scowl on his face.
You may be unaware, but supplies of horse and food were only enough to send his retainers and either the teutons or the mailed knights against the Hungarians besieging Budapest in time.
I chose to send with him the teutons, knowing they are our most elite knights.
It seems young Lothar has done well in the battle and finally proved his worth.
I am sure his father would like to have the honor of knighting him formally once he is back in Italy. I for one now consider him a knight officially.
Message from Ansehelm, as read out in the Diet
Quote:
What is this? Don't you have to be knighted anymore to command an army? What is this for wahnsinn?
Today an unknighted noble, what will come tomorrow? Heinrich und Karl the dung collectors?
And next to all this Swabia is still allowed to penetrate further and further into French territory, without an edict, without the approval of the Diet.
I think the honourable Hans should ask himself the question if he's up for the job of chancellor.
Ansehelm
Count of Thorn
Heir to Franconia
Extremely :daisy: off
I believe the young Steward Ansehelm should be more careful in his judgement if he wishes to one day lead Franconia.
Firstly, Lothar Steffen did not lead an army but a small force as he cunningly derided from our charter. As there was no legal barrier that prevented him from doing so, it was approved.
Secondly, I ridicule your constant comments about Swabia's expansions as they have not advanced any further than Paris as we speak. Maybe you ought to look at our Imperial maps in the mornings when you may be more clear headed?
Another message from Thorn
Quote:
Lothar Steffen might have led only a little army, he did have the overall command in the battle. Something which is normally only giving to an Army Commander.
And tell me which Edict allowed Swabia to march into France at all.
Lothar Steffen did at no point command the garrison of Budapest, but only his entourage and the teutons, as layed out by the charter.
The charter amendment regarding household armies allows one settlement to be taken per order to be fulfilled if received prior to the start of the chancellorship or at the discretion of the chancellor if received thereafter.
The Prussian noble Ansehelm send stands, speaking in his place (OOC: just to get rid of the messages)
Now, even tho that order might be given we do widen our borders with it. Which is dangerous. Sides if we march too far into France I'm afraid we will get to close to Britain and Spain.
Considering there has been no further expansion into French territory, I find Ansehelm von Kastiliens' to be unfounded.
It could similarly be argued that we would widen our borders if Krakow was taken. Each house, including Franconia, is being treated fairly currently in terms of construction, recruitment and fulfillment of orders, something the chancellor is not obliged to do, especially in the light of general opposition of Franconia towards my election at the last diet, something I would like to remind you of.
Krakow has not been taken, and mostlikely will not be taken for some time. The Franconian Household Army is far too busy for that. There's another big army at the gates.
I suggest the Swabians go more onto the defence and look at the Danes as well. Eastern Franconia depends more on the Swabians than on the Franconian forces.
Considering veteran reinforcements from Staufen have almost arrived in Franconia, I would believe that you should have ample men to fight any threat arising in the east. As for the Danes, Prince Jobst stands outside the gates of Antwerp ready to defeat any French or Danish force that might threaten the empire and to defend the English if they are attacked.
As to suggesting what Swabia does, I would like to ask you to take this up with Duke Scherer who is responsible for Swabian matters. I am serving the empire's best interests in defending our borders, making the homeland and outremer safe and boosting our technology and economy.
And you only happen to be Swabian yourself
I may be Swabian, but my upbringing has taught me that the empire's interests come before an individual house' interest. It is only by being united that we stand strong as the holy roman empire.
Regardless, again it is not my place to discuss Swabian plans with you and if you wish to know more, contact my Duke.
Instead of Swabia attacking the God-fearing Catholics and diminishing our Papal standing which is so important in this Reich, I suggest they expand towards the excommunicated Danes.
Again, bring it up with the Duke of Swabia, not with me. If you wish Franconia to expand towards the Danes, have your Duke speak with me.
Franconia is too busy with the Eastern Barbarians.
Günther von Kastillien's spokesman enters
As Ansehelm stated, we are too busy in the east. The Garrison in Hamburg will have to deter the Danes from attacking, and we should not instigate anything on our - relatively weak - northern frontier. Franconia will push eastwards, not northwards.
I do propose we leave our military discussions for our own assembly, as not to bother this body with an inter housal discussion...
:balloon2:
Gentlemen!!
I believe the issue of Lord Lothar is finished. He been knighted by his father.
I would like you all to know that if that had not happen then I would have personally knight him myself.
His actions in the battle at Budapest have been confirmed to me in person by the entire Austrian court and at least three witnesses who were at the battle in person.
I am shocked that this process dragged on for as long as it did. Myself and the entire House of Austria are of like mind on this topic!!
As for Durazzo, then this is equally a closed topic.
I WAS THERE personally and therefore I am entirely in a position to decide what is to be done with the province. I'd also like to point out that I was also there when Ehrhart was killed and I will not have anyone cast doubt on his sacrifice and how important it was to the House of Austria or this Reich.
With that said, it seems the last of the "Old Guard" have nearly departed from us. The Emperor is the only one remaining from that era.
King Otto was as fine a member of this Empire as can be imagine. His lose is a colossal blow to this nation and he shall be missed dearly.
That Blasted pope, prevents us from dealing proper justice to the Milanese, although it might be for the best as it looks like we are threatened in the north by the french.
Do I need to raise the BHA to deal with them, or do the swabians have something in mind, hehe?
Message From Jonas Von Mahren.
Quote:
The Bloody French are blocking my way to Franconia.If the Reich wills it i will kill them all if i get an army from somewhere. Altough i do suspect they are moving west.I will leave it to the Kaiser,Dukes and Chancellor to decide their fate.What i can say is that there is no mercy coming from me if i have to deal with them.
Jonas
Message from Ansehelm
Quote:
Meine Herren,
Oh happy days, those stupid Russians can't get their horses onto the walls. And I'm very happy.
About the French I suggest that Count von Mahren picks up the gathered army for him in Prague and that he shadows it. The Swabians will place an ambush somewhere on the road of the French army ... which is mostlikely heading for Paris. And it will be quickly over.
Will the French army miss the ambush Count of Mahren can finish them.
Ansehelm von Kastilien
Count of Thorn
Heir to Franconia
Currently on the walls laughing at some Russians
I am divided on the matter. For one, killing this French army will re-cripple the military operations of France.
However, we will lose the ever-important *spits* "Papal blessings," and not be able to destroy Milan without being excommunicated.
They are on are land, How can the pope question our action when it is the french that are in the wrong?
Duke Gerhard, as always, you make the wise decision. Unfortunately, the "Pope" may not agree with your sentiments and it will be more difficult to rally support in conquering Milan, if the "Pope" thinks less highly of us.
Conrad Salier:
I have expressed my opinion on this matter to the Bavarians, and I shall express it here.
It is not worth excommunication to deal with these people.
What are the Milanese: two islands? And we are so sanguinary that we cannot wait a short while to take two measly islands? We risk everything if we decide to ignore the order. While some people in this esteemed body do not view the Pope as a force to be listened to (*Conrad makes the sign of the cross*) the peasants do. And rest assured, my friends, they will make themselves heard. If we want tranquility at home then we would be wise to wait.
Kaiser Henry: Conrad Salier speaks the truth. Milan is not a serious threat. She can wait - rushing to crush her is not worth offending our alliance with the Papacy.
Indeed, I am rather surprised the Bavarians wish to return to that accursed island of Corsica. The Milanese can keep it, and its, urm, lovely ladies.
Remember, my Lords, that the defence of Jerusalem requires good standing with the Papacy - so that we may maintain our alliance and military access. These things we lost during the affair with the Danish crusade. Regaining them was not easy - requiring a successful crusade and donating one of our provinces.
We should remember also that the current Pope is but a young man and under him, the Papacy will have a long memory.
Finally, do not forget how Milan was originally driven from Europe - by our deliberate forbearance, leading to the Pope excommunicating them, not us, for aggression. If we are patient once again, history will surely repeat itself.
Henry sits down and then absent mindedly sits up again.
And given the wisdom of Conrad Salier's words, and my complete agreement with them, now is as good a time as any to remind the Diet ... (soto voce) and myself ... that Conrad Salier was appointed by King Otto to be his successor as King of Outremer.
I take this opportunity to congratulate King Salier on his appointment and to wish him a long reign.
I am deeply troubled by the admissions made by the Franconians as of late. I would like to advise everyone that us Swabians have yet to take a city other than Paris in this chancellorship and probably will not for the rest of the term given the large French military presence around Paris due to their citadel of Angers.
As to whether us Swabians were allowed to take Paris, I beleive that it is clearly stated somewhere that each House is allowed to take one province of their choosing as long as it borders the House's territories. I have shown eagerness for more French territory to be taken which may cause debate and dissent, but we are hardly at that point yet seeing as the Swabian House Army is being retrained after the recent battle near Paris.
Be reminded too that I expressed interest in taking Bruges, which is very close to Antwerp a Danish city. Any Franconian attempt to take Antwerp will surely be impeded by French forces from Bruges which means that it is best for Bruges to be neutralized, something that Swabian forces will not find too hard to do.
Bless your words, Duke Scherer, for in them lies proof that not all the Swabian house is... indiscretionate.
Outrageous! The Kaiser himself prefers to let innocent citizens of the Reich suffer and perish rather than to "offend" the Pope? By his own words he states that the defense of Jerusalem is more important than our own homelands! This is a clear example of how the Reich is rotting from the inside.
Any man who gives preference to the security of Outremer over the lands of Franconia, Swabia, Austria, and Bavaria is not worthy of calling himself a Roman. Any man who cares more for a foreign alliance than the welfare of his own people is not worthy of calling himself a Roman.
This is not a matter of risking excommunication from the Church. No Bavarian wishes to bring such harm to our people. This is a simple choice between causing the Pope some small displeasure or allowing misery and suffering for the commoners of Bavaria! The Kaiser so arrogantly says that the Milanese can "wait." Wait? Which Elector here would simply "wait" when his lands were being repeatedly devastated by invading armies, his vassals raped and killed, his merchant ships taken, and his ports blockaded? Any nobleman who would stand aside and "wait" to avoid the displeasure of an ally is not worthy of noble blood.
Kaiser, I fear that in the search for Chivalry you have forgotten what that word means. Chivalry means sacrifice of oneself for the betterment of one's people. Chivalry means doing what is right, even if it is difficult. Chivalry means upholding justice, no matter the cost!
Lothar Steffen is right! The Milanese have pestered us long enough. Bavaria is the economic base of the Reich, with the large cities of Milan and Genoa anchoring its finances. If it is threatened in the least, the threat must be destroyed, as the effects will be felt throughout the Empire.
Conrad Salier:
Young Lothar, I fear that you are not seeing the full scope of things.
First of all, I speak under the assumption that we will indeed finish Milan off once the Papal Bull expires.
It remains to be seen whether Milan can put together a significant invasion force in that period of time. The question of whether Milan is even capable of doing all the things that you say is unknown.
However, it is entirely known what will happen should we be excommunicated. It's happened twice before in our history. Rioting. Looting. Unrest. Thousands of deaths. This, my friend, is clear.
So, would you rather pick the scenario whose outcome is unknown but can easily be manipulated or controlled to serve our ends, or the one whose outcome is clear and terrible?
Herr Salier, I must testify that the Papal bull received by Chancellor Hans did not threaten excommunication for the Kaiser Henry ever, merely a loss of relations. A man so close to the Catholic Church as yourself knows that the Catholic Church has never been one to refuse a... small persuasion for them to change their mind - thus damaged relations could be repaired.
Conrad Salier:
One would hope, Lord von Kastilien, that not everyone in the Church follows that same unfortunate line of thinking that you speak of.
As for the bull not threatening excommunication, it does little to sway me. The Pope will still see it as us flouting his authority, and he is young. It could be the start of a slippery slope to excommunication.
Conrad, you are of course correct that it would be a great disservice to our people to subject them to the cruelty of living under an excommunicated Kaiser. As I said before, none of us in Bavaria wish to cause such a thing. However, Peter von Kastilien is correct. The order we have received from the Pope says nothing about excommunication, merely a loss of standing.
In any case, it is the Kaiser's entire attitude about the matter that disturbs me most. I emphasize again that by his own words the Kaiser has stated that the safety of Jerusalem is of more importance than that of our homelands! We are ruled by a man who cares more for kind words from the Pope than the welfare of his own people.
Jerusalem has considerable importance these years because the pope who resides there is German, just like every one of us here.
If he falls, a new pope will be elected. Considering that none of our cardinals are among the preferati and our enemies field two, it would be wise to keep the pope alive.
Relations may be repaired, empires rebuilt, but lives, once lost, are lost forever. The Milanese have plagued us for too long. As stated before, Bavaria is our economic base. If even Genoa alone was captured, or blockaded by a significant military fleet, the entire Reich, even the barren hells in the Levant, would feel the blow. Perhaps the desert sun of Outremer and the draughts of royal wine taken upon your throne have caused you to forget the many injustices Milan has brought upon us. Were the Papal bull for excommunication, I would take the diplomatic route and wait. However, that is not the case, and we must strike now!
Kaiser Henry: Lothar, you accuse the King of the Romans of not being worthy of being called a Roman. You slander me by saying I prefer to let innocent citizens of the Reich suffer and perish. You presume to lecture me on chivalry. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of arrogance.
I remind you that I preside over this body and I will not see the Kaiser's authority diminished by such disrespect. I will retire from the chamber now for the evening. If you wish to be allowed to remain when I return, you will withdraw those remarks and apologise.
Kaiser Henry, does not this Imperial Diet serve to allow all nobles, Lothar Steffen, Count of Florence included, to speak their minds and have their beliefs heard before all the Reich? Lothar Steffen is merely serving his duty to the Empire to ensure that all beliefs are heard! If he is removed from this Diet, then you will have to remove me too as I share is founded beliefs.
There is a difference between speaking your beliefs and thoughts and insulting other members, especially our most valued, personally.
I believe that line has been crossed.
Chancellor Hans, were you present when Lothar made his argument before this Diet? Whether or not his fiery oratory insulted the good Kaiser, he spoke the truth. Outremer is naught but a papal fief, a dishonor to the Reich! Were the Kingdom of Outremer more than a mere bodyguard for the Pope, but an extension of the Reich proper, it would hold just as much importance. However, I believe certain nobles are too occupied by their religious zeal and servitude to the Papacy to realize there are secular troubles that plague the Reich, that no one man may stop. If God wills that we do not strike at Milan, let him speak! I fear that the Pope is not a reliable proxy and his bull imposing restriction upon attacking Milan has not been decreed for the good of the faith, but rather for personal quarrel with the Reich.
Conrad Salier:
With all due respect gentlemen, you have insulted both the Kaiser and the Pope in one day, two men more powerful, important, and influential than you shall ever be. This is still a feudal system, and places must be learned.
Any offences against the Kaiser I withdraw. I do not take back, however, my stance in agreement with Lothar's beliefs. While I do not mean to insult the Kaiser, I do, however I disagree with his platform regarding Milan, Outremer, and the Pope.
Regarding the Holy See, I take back no insult. The Pope as an establishment is an insult to devout Christians, who do not need a proxy to find the Lord.
Even if we may have our differences with other catholic children, I remind you that we regardless are all God's children and must adhere to His commandments and His highest servant, the pope.
While the papal bull is indeed troubling, there is no question that I shall negotiate with his Holiness to find common ground in this matter, but I doubt that can be achieved with the rampant blasphemy that is present in this very diet, where we, the representatives of our people, convene.
I ask that all of you keep the discussions civil and not resort to personal insults, lest you wish to find yourself banished from the empire.
And lastly, I ask, no, demand, that you apologize to the emperor for your open and unworthy insults and pray a fortnight to repent your blasphemy against our most holy church.
Were you not listening, Chancellor Hans? I withdrew insult to the Kaiser! The issue is not whether or not we are all God's children. I deem it not blasphemy to repudiate the Pope. Regardless of whether or not I bow to the false idol, I am a Catholic, devout and pure. I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior, not the Pope.
Matthias looks around the Diet chamber with alarm:
Peace! Peace, my fellow Electors. I am sure that my Brother and Peter von Kastilien meant no true disrespect toward the Kaiser. As for the Pope, well, worse things have been said about his predecessors in the Diet. It saddens me that a former Imperial Cardinal would act in such a way against us.
Must we wait until the Milanese have seized an Imperial city before the Diet takes them seriously? We have shown "forbearance" and hesitation before, and all we gained from it was a betrayed peace and. . .
Matthias is interrupted by a coughing fit.
. . .and a curse upon my family.
We have tried leaving them alone, and they attacked us at Bern. We drove them to their Islands, thinking they had learned their lesson, and they raided our coast and lands. We made peace with them, thinking to make them a trading partner, and they declared war on us again! How many times must we allow this Corsairs to strike at us before we respond? It is obvious now that the Sicilians are incapable of even taking one of their Islands. This is something we have to do ourselves!
A lowering of our relations with the Pope is a different animal than excommunication. Our standing can be restored with florins and defending Jerusalem from the Egyptians. If the Diet wishes to offer Sardinia to Sicily, as approved before, so be it. But this Sword of Damocles hanging over our head must be removed.
Others here have spoken out against Outremer, thinking defending it weakens us here, or somehow it makes us more beholden to the Pope. I disagree. In fact, as a show of good faith, once the Milan matter is concluded, I will journey East to offer my service to King Salier. Bavaria does indeed support Outremer, it always has and always shall.
Thank you.
Blasphemy?! What have I said that is contrary to the teachings of Christ? Is it my desire to defend the innocent and the helpless from violence? I have as much respect for God as any man in the Reich and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. If anyone here is guilty of blasphemy, it is the Kaiser for protecting the Milanese who are known to harbor witches and heretic priests! I have heard lately of a great plague that has broken out in Outremer. I wonder, is it simply due to the Kaiser's failure to provide public sanitation or is it a curse brought upon his new 'Kingdom' for following a man who keeps a Pagan as an adviser?
My Kaiser, you said that I accused the King of the Romans of not being worthy of being called a Roman. That is not so. What I said was that any man who gives preference to the security of Outremer over the homelands of the Reich, and any man who cares more for a foreign alliance than the welfare of his own people, is not worthy of calling himself a Roman. Since you have taken this as a personal insult, I must ask you my Kaiser, which is it that you believe to be descriptive of yourself?
As for diminishing your authority in the Diet, how can that happen if my statements are wrong? If what I say is such obvious 'slander,' unsubstantiated by truth, then surely every Elector will see through the falsehoods my words conceal and ignore them. No, the only way your authority could be diminished was if there was truth to what I say. So tell me, Kaiser, why do you truly believe that my statements undermine your authority?
I said before that a proper nobleman, a truly chivalrous servant of the Reich, will not allow harm to befall his own people, no matter the cost to himself. Were I to apologize for speaking the truth on this matter, I would be betraying my own vassals. I would be betraying the women and children who are killed by Milanese coastal raiders. I would be betraying the Christians souls who are corrupted and cursed by Milanese heretics. I would be betraying Christ himself for abandoning those in need.
No, you will not bribe me with 30 pieces of silver or with 30,000 florins. I will serve the good of the Reich, no matter the cost! There is no need to expel me from the Diet, for I go willingly. Simply being in the presence of one with so little regard for his own vassals makes my skin crawl. You can sit here in your gilded chair and play with words all you want. I will go forth and serve my people as best as I am able. You will be gone from this Earth soon enough and with luck we will then have an Emperor who cares for the Reich more than his own ambitions. God knows it has been too long since we have seen one of those.
*Lothar turns and leaves the Diet.*
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921
OOC: Only after I finished typing did your post pop up. As such, consider it to be before yours...
Truly these debates are ones that may never be solved. One's passions for religion and a powerless idol cannot be challenged by any man as good man of the Reich would be staunch and stick to his beliefs.
Blasphemy, cries Hans? Devotion, say I!
The Milan and Outremer debates, and secular issues with the Pope, however, are certain to be discussed in the next official Diet session.
Prinz Jobst slams his fist on a table, and stands, banging his fist.
Order, order!
Yes this is a place for a debate, but I will not have anything said about lords higher then your rank, remember your place amonsgt the rank.
Sometimes I forget some of you are Catholic. If you think the Pope is not worthy of living on earth, then you are no catholic, he was appointed by majority of others.
Jobst bangs his fist on the table
As for the Kaiser, he is the ruler of this Empire, and trust me, you do not want to bad mouth the Kaiser, or the Pope for that matter.
As it has been said, stop bad mouthing both, or I shall remove you BY FORCE!
Jobst sits
Ansehelm marches into the Diet, looking rather cross
Right, now I've had it.
Lothar go and play somewhere else. I still remember your tricks, and they may be there because you're still in your teen years, but the Diet is no place to play. So take your little Blood Order out of here and go and annoy some Milanese in future.
Same goes for you little brother, go back to Thorn, from the three of us you are by far the best commander.
There are more important matters than the Milanese.
The Hungarians, the Poles and the Russians cause far more problems. Next to that we have the Danes who aren't weak. The French, who even now have a big army in the middle of the Reich. And once we defeat the French we will have the English and the men on the Iberian peninsula to worry about.
Lothar Steffen is barred from this place. He may freely return at any time if he sends me an apology. Or, as he says, I leave this earth. He still retains full voting rights, although presumably he will find it hard to propose an edict if he is still excluded. He may vent his spleen in the House of Bavaria assembly and he may continue to collect skulls on the battlefield, as seems to be his passion.
Peter von Kastilien, everyone is free to speak their views on the future of the Reich. But the Kaiser is your Head of State and keeps order in this place - he cannot be insulted here without consequence. I take no offence at your words which, while agreeing with Lothar on the future of the Reich, did not show contempt for the Kaiser.
*Recently arrived from the Bavarian Council*
I hear your points Lord Elector of Franconia, there are powers among our enemies mightier then the Milanese. However, we all agree that northern Italy is of a vital importance to the Empire for it is such an important commercial center. As I have written to this Council in this past, the Empire cannot afford to let down the security and safety of this region. Yet for a few years now our observers have noticed that the pirates and Milanese fleet have been busier then ever. This has had a direct impact on our commercial activities and therefore reducing this all important income.
In the same time our Sicilians a l l i e s have signed a truce with the Milanese, directly inviting the tradesmen who where based in our cities to operate in theirs. This is not only taking tax income and commercial wealth away from us, but also more importantly, brings it to our enemies and so called allies.
For the sake of the Empire and to be able to pay for the very expensive Kingdom of Outremer, I hope you understand the importance to secure this region and eliminate the Milanese threat.
Gerhard Steffen walks into the diet, the transcripts of last night's 'discussion' fresh in his mind. An aide is waiting for him at the enterance to the Diet.
'Sir, did you hear the news?'
'What has Lothar done now?'
'The Kaiser has made it Official, he is barred from the diet'
'Wonderful' Gerhard responds flatly, Perhaps I will take up Conrad's offer...
Gerhard Steffen, takes his place and addresses the Diet
While the Swabians complain that they have 'only taken Paris' under Hans' Chancellorship, us Bavarians haven't had the privledge of expanding the Riech since Otto Von Kassel was Chancellor More than 40 years ago.
I personally went to end the Milanese threat under Henery, and suffer to this day becuase the most foul being's on Corsica. They convinced us that peace was the best way foreward, and I left, taking sickness and blight with me. And how do they thank us for making great sacrifice?
By blockadeing our ports and sending raiding parties into our lands.
Well, I for one am Sick and Tired of it, groveling to the pope after we have gifted him Jerusalem, TWICE.
Sitting idly by as our Italian neighbours form closer and closer relationships, waiting for the right moment. Where do you think they will march first? ROME, that's where, and while some members of the Diet would rather put on a bright green uniform than offend the pope, I believe that something must be done about it.
Unless any member of the Diet can find a compelling Legal reason for it not to happen, the Bavarian Household Army WILL march on the Milanese, and it WILL destroy every last one of them.
As for my eldest son; he is his own man, I admire his spirit and his vigor, but his rfirery rhetoric does little to advance his own position. I will talk with him, Conrad has asked for help in the east, maybe some travel will help his political skills.
Ansehelm, who is still in Rome, stands
I am not the most pious man of us all gentlemen. I go to church every sunday. I pray before dinner, but that's about it. I prefer dealing with more important matters.
However if we are warned by the Pope there are two things we can do. Do as he pleases or pretend as if we didn't hear him.
I always thought that the Bavarians were more pious than for example me, and even I would follow the Pope's command on a matter like this.
You can attack the Milanese as much as you want after this warning is over, but if you march on the Milanese cities I know one person who will stop support to Bavaria in the coming Diet, and it's not the Pope.
And if your son wants to he can come here up north, to fight some real barbarians. He'll find that life in Thorn is different from the warm south. In Thorn you need to work to keep alive.
LORDS!
Bavaria has the right to attack Milan without hindrance. According to Charter Amendment 5.1, the Duke has the right to use his household armies to attack an army, enemy, rebel, or neutral, if they have transgressed upon our lands. By blockading the port of Genoa, they HAVE transgressed upon our lands. Also, in Amendment 5.2, it is stated that a Duke can make war upon any faction entering his lands. Potentially, these decisions can be barred by Amendment 6.7 - an attack may not be made if it leads to excommunication without 2/3s vote. However, the papal bull did not threaten excommunication, only a mere loss of relations, which can be repaired most easily with a tithe from our treasury. Gentlemen, there is no more cause for debate.
Still, an attack will seriously damage our reputation.
And that means that the next warning the Pope gives will be about excommunication.
And Peter, I think you do want to attack the Poles without the Pope being in our way, don't you?
Bavaria should not attack, we've been trying to get in the Pope's favour with crusades and by giving them Durazzo, why shall we throw all that away, it's not worth. As the emperor has said: Milan is not worth it.
But brother - reputation can be repaired! Dead souls to not return from the netherworld, and the cruel Milanese have, time and time again, caused good men of the Reich to die or be crippled due to her foul witches and heretics.
Legally, there is no more cause to debate - if Gerhard Steffen wishes to make war upon the Milanese, there is nothing any man can do about it except try and persuade him otherwise.
Matthias Steffen made a good point - are we to wait until Milan lands a force and takes an Imperial city? Milan is too weak, you say, to do this. They are not worth it. They were worth it many years ago when the Duke of Bavaria left Corsica fruitless, bearing no reward for his troubles except a curse upon his family.
I say, let the ol' Pope be a little offended, so we can bring justice, justice in the making since Bavaria left Corsica. If you want to heal relations, give him Corsica once we take it! I'm sure a "holy man" like himself will have no problem clearing out the heresy.
Then Give me something to Conquer!!!! I will not go down in history as the man that let Bavaria rot while Swabia, Austria and Franconia grew in power and Influance. In 1188 I took Marseille, It's been 46 years since then (OOC: and I've only aged 11 HAHA!!), the Size of the Riech has Doubled and Bavaria hasn't seen a new province in Europe since then. We've endured raid after riad from the Milanese and now you seek to deny us that which we have earned in blood. That is unacceptable to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
As if I'm happy while Franconia hasn't been able to take a settlement the last two Diets. We even lost one for some time.
If you don't want the others to become so strong make sure the chancellor is in your house.
Franconia has come under constant attacks of Russia and Poland, and we can't do anything back. We haven't even been able to send an army to punish the Russians for the taking of Thorn.
Why this lust to conquer, Duke Steffen? There is more to life, and indeed to leadership, than that.
Bavaria is not rotting - as has been mentioned, its settlements thrive with booming populations and an economy that is the wonder of all. It enjoys peace and security unparalleled among all four Houses. And unless my clerks have made an error, Bavaria remains the largest House in the Reich, with the most provinces.
If you or your fellow Bavarians need an outlet for your aggression, I am sure the Chancellor can find you employment elsewhere.
Jonas Von Mahren enters the Diet.
"Greetings gentlemen! I decided to come visit Rome since i cant get to Franconia thanks to the French army in the middle of the Reich. I have been informed about the Bavarians wish to go to war. As im aware their original province is currently sacked by the French.So why are you looking for a attack on few unimportant islands when your house hold army should be protecting the capital of Bavaria?"
Jonas sits down and finishes a beer that has been passed to him.
Emperor, with all due respect, I have to defend Duke Gerhard. It is not a mere outlet of aggression that is in order, but Milan is a threat to some of the most fruitful provinces in the Reich, including Rome, Marseille, Genoa, and Venice. Provinces Imperial, Bavarian, and Austrian. Not only would the collapse of Genoa or any other southern city plague Bavaria, it would plague the entire Reich! Why defend Bavaria if I am Franconian, you may ask? My rebuttal is that I defend the entire Reich! These southern coastal provinces generate thousands of florins for the feeding of our armies and citizens, and if they are lost, it will be a sore blow to the Empire.
As has been mentioned, Your Highness, the booming populations and wondrous economy are in peril. Why wait until Milan strikes? We must strike back now, and legally, there is nothing anyone can do if the Duke chooses to attack. There is precedence of the Household Armies attacking settlements without Edict, shown in Swabia's conquest of Paris. This is not an attack on Swabia's justified aggression, mind you, but there is legal precedence for Edict-less conquest of settlements. And once the BHA decides to strike, under the Charter Amendments 5.1 and 5.2, nothing can stop them.
Lust to conquer? no, not really, I wish to lead by example, and as you have pointed out Bavaria is mostly safe from without and within. But with Chancellor Hans taking control of most build ques, and little military action to be had, my role as Duke feels like little more than 'Count plus a vote'. it seems the only example I am setting is that Rome is the best place in the Riech to get a tan.
I supose I could go east, help the pope defend a city he can't even hold onto himself, and leave Bavaria in the hands of my teenage sons, there's an example to follow!
You seem to forget the words of the wise Von Mahren little brother. I suggest you reread what the scribe has written down. There is a massive French army near Bavaria, and still they wish to fight some little nation. Against the will of the Pope.
I never said that the attack of Milan is to be the exclusive attack by the Reich! Is there no army that may be mustered by the Bavarian war machine to punish Milan and liberate the Catholic souls imprisoned by witches and at the same time mirror the French army to ensure that it doesn't attack?
Peter von Kastilien, I am not convinced Milan is a serious threat. It has two provinces - Bavaria has seven and the Reich in total has thirty two. If we cannot see them off should they leave their islands, we may as well all become monks.
Gentlemen, we stand at a cross roads. The Reich now is so large, rich and powerful that it can squash it enemies almost at a whim. Even the dreaded Mongols were eliminated within two years. The arguments for invading Milan "for security" could be applied with greater force to invading France, Denmark, Hungary, Venice, Russia, Turkey and Egypt.
Is that the path the Bavarians want the Reich to follow? To remorsely devour neighbouring province after province out of picque and a desire to find some employment for their Dukes and generals, all justified under a pretence to avoid some exagerated external threat?
That may be the way the Horse Lords conduct statecraft, I am unconvinced it is fitting for a long established Christian country.
Conrad Salier:
The witch on Corsica is being dealt with by a Papal Inquisitor as we speak.
We Bavarians are hearty folk and can easily repulse any attack that the Milanese throw at us. Surely we would be able to stay on the defensive for a short amount of time and then attack once the Bull runs out.
I suggest you reconsult with a different lawyer then, young Kastilien.Quote:
Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921
Household armies may attack without edict, yes. Now, what you seem to not understand, is that only one settlement may be specified in that order and it must reach my desk before the start of term to be valid.
The only order that I received at the time was from Duke Scherer. No other Duke had expressed the wish to conquer.
Now, as you may see from reading the charter carefully, any order given to the chancellor after the start of term is to be fulfilled at his discretion. That means, that if any Duke wishes to assault a settlement at this time, it is no order but merely a suggestion, that is non binding.
Dukes certainly are allowed to declare war on nations that enter our lands as long as they were neutral previously. No such thing occured until after the Milanese declared war. Now, declaring war is not the same as sending invasion fleets as you will surely see.
As such, unless I can convince the pope that Milanis a worthy target, chances are there will be no assault on the islands this term, unless it is a rogue attack by the Bavarians currently in Italy, which certainly will be condemned by the diet I would imagine.
So you're saying, that when action is needed, the will of one man (i.e. the Chancellor) is enough to prevent it?
And Kaiser, how would you feel if Milan suddenly mustered a force to attack the mainland and regain some of its old possessions, or worse yet, Rome? You have lived a full and fulfilling life, perhaps being the greatest Kaiser of this Reich. Nearing the end of your years, would you like it if the legacy you left behind was the capture of your capital city by an army of island brigands you deemed "not worth it" to strike at? Occurences like that cast a dark shadow over the history books, Your Highness.
And Hans, you are so certain that the potential actions of Bavaria would be condemned by the Diet? Well, let's hear all who have yet to speak their mind voice their opinions!
Yes, little brother, the chancellor is the man that commands all the armies. And he can refrain from attacking.
Hence why Franconia voted for Ulrich Hümmel as the next chancellor, as we thought his thoughts were fitting Franconia better. Now it seems that a couple of men are cursing themselves for voting the wrong man.
And the honourable Hans is doing a good job, sure I'm not pleased that Thorn has not recieved it's garrison when I wanted it, but the Russians are stupid, so that doesn't matter.
Milan is not in the power to attack us, and as Herr Salier has said, defending is easy.
Young brother, you should concentrate on Franconia, not on Bavaria. Or did Lothar visit you as well with his little joke. I told him my brothers are more open for it, seems like I was right.
Which I offered to take care of (OOC: I offered OOC I think, I don't remember now), and was rebuffed, just as my offer to lead the BHA against the Hungarians was turned down, Only after Zegrab fell were we called upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
The swabians seems to have a handle on the French, and Bavaria is thousands of miles from the other threats to the Riech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Henery
And how many good Roman lives will be lost in repeated defensive actions against the Milanese?
OOC: I haven't pushed for a french attack for OOC reasons, I am under the impression that we are leaving them be for now in the hopes that they are more challenging later
Jonas Von Mahren
"I think that there really should be discussion about the French in the heart of the Reich roaming around,still yet i havent heard a thing from the Swabians about their intrests on that force.I think if someone has the right to destroy those dogs its the Bavarians who´s capital is after all next to the French army.Or amybe we should connect the lands north from Alps to Franconia since Bavarians seem to have turned into Italians."
Jonas sits down and demands another beer after drinking who knows how many.
Riding his War Horse up to the outer doors of the Diet, Arnold swings out of the saddle and hands the his reins to the startled Guard.
Making his way to the centre of the chamber Arnold removes his helmet and places it and his fathers sword on the Austrian Benches.
My Lords,
It seems we have quite a festival of discussion here in the Diet.
Being a man of action rather than one that gets dragged into unseemly displays of name calling and general bickering, I would propose the following.
Off the top of my head I don’t believe the Austrian House Army has anything to do right now. Without consulting the Chancellor or the current field reports from the east I would be more than happy to destroy the French Army and knight any number of outstanding nobles of any house.
They need to be removed. They’ve had plenty of time to leave our territory and I’m sure this is a deliberate attempt to provoke us.
With an evil look in his eye Arnold continues
I’m more than happy to oblige those sanctimonious frog :daisy:ers
As for the Milanese, I propose the following action.
The Popes comment is simply a warning that our standing would fall…in my opinion his favour can be reacquired with coin and we should have an emissary stationed in his back pocket to ensure any, “issues of favour” are “corrected”, with the appropriate amount of monetary donation.
In the mean time I do believe it is time to rid the Milanese from our minds and lands.
Two armies large enough to get the job done should be stationed in such away that we can simultaneously strike both targets in the same year.
At the same time, our standing with the Pope will drop and I’m sure the ex Count of Venice, and my trusted advisor, can make enough money available to sooth the poor feelings of our dearly beloved Pope.
We can clearly see a trend here gentlemen. Until we end their existence we will continue to require an inordinate amount of troops in Italy to defend the area. If they are destroyed then I’m sure an appropriate number of naval fleets can defend our southern shores.
I know it is expansionist but they been a constant annoyance for years and its time to end it.
Ansehelm stands
I'm not interested in politics of other houses but wouldn't it be better for Austria to defend it's borders from the Hungarians.
Sides the French army is out of your reach, the Swabians can ambush it, or we can hope that Jonas von Mahren is able to overtake it.
Duke Arnold - thank you for believing what Lothar and I have stressed. Hopefully the prominence of a Duke's approval will help dispel the belief that we are spoiled children picking fights with our elders, when truly we have the best interests of the Reich in our minds.
Conrad Salier:
I have a proposal that could be considered a compromise regading the Milanese situation.
Now that the witch has been dealt with thanks to the Papal Inquisitor, a landing party is to be sent on the island of Corsica, or, if you consider the Inquisitor a threat, Sardinia. This force is meant to provoke the Milanese to attack us on their soil by emptying their garrison. If they take the bait then we will surely defeat them in battle, cut their production capacity in half, and still remain faithful to the Papal Bull. What say you?
*claps after the Duke of Austria's intervention and stands up*
Finally we get some sort of sense! Of course some sort of h e l p could help improving our diplomatic relationship with the Holy See. Once you've made it this far you could even start thinking that the Milanese troops and war ships would work in the same way. This way we wouldn't even need to send a host against them and both matters would be resolved in one go!
*sits back on his bench and sips his beer*
King Salier, I underestimated you. I think this compromise will ensure protection without hurting our papal reputation (which I still hold to be unimportant, but I am in the minority).
And brother, it shocks me to see your sectionalism. Lothar didn't trick me about anything - you won't be able to attack the Poles if the huge cities of Bavaria are captured. I fight for the good of the Reich, not Bavaria. What do you consider yourself first, Franconian, or a member of the most Holy Roman Empire?