No econ this about AG telling me OOC that we can interact in a certain way and then making sure my character suffered adversly IC when I did it. This became a total goat !@#$ :furious3:Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
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No econ this about AG telling me OOC that we can interact in a certain way and then making sure my character suffered adversly IC when I did it. This became a total goat !@#$ :furious3:Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
PK,
I would suggest you PM me again. It seems pressure is coming from angles you were not expecting and I'm not able to see that.
We've spoken about this privately when I got a few Crackers from directions I was not expecting.
I can only say that I don't think you can ever be politically useless.
You have your voting influence and your in the game. No one can make you cast votes you don't want to.
If I've said anything in the Diet that you were not expecting then let me know.
Cheers
AG
About time!!!! Maybe the Pagan Magician in Karl retinue is on to something?Quote:
Originally Posted by OverKnight
PK and AG - I suggest your avatars both cold shoulder each other in the Diet for a while. I think the mutual IC sniping has gone about as far as it can and is spilling over OOC.
In my observation, in politics, firm political opponents typically are rather indifferent to each other in legislative chambers - since their positions are so entrenched, there is little to be gained by expending emotional energy on each other. It is when dealing with people in their own party that things get really nasty.
I'll rephrase it "Duke OR Steward (if no Duke in House) +2".Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Peter has 5 command - he could get up to 9 if he attacks at night.Quote:
Doesn't he have some high stats? Hell I fought a battle with him in command and he had atleast 9 command.
I'm talking to PK now Econ.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
This is more akin to the Backroom than actual politics. :laugh4:Quote:
In my observation, in politics, firm political opponents typically are rather indifferent to each other in legislative chambers - since their positions are so entrenched, there is little to be gained by expending emotional energy on each other. It is when dealing with people in their own party that things get really nasty.
I couldn't agree more. 8 years of Political Science at school and university was more than enough for me to see just about everything. :dizzy2:
hey econ - peter von kastilien is the FHA commander (or definitely once ansehelm gets crusading)
I've pm'd PK aswell, I didn't mean to ruin the game for the poor guy.:oops: :oops:
Before anyone asks, I have already started work on the Library update, but I don't have a lot of time tonight. The actual uploading and updating probably won't happen until tomorrow. Apologies if this causes any problems.
TC, if you need help in the photoshoping of the characters pics for the library, I can help. Just send me all the pics needed.
Well good news is Siegfried and Elberhard can be married off via Diplomacy, but that doesnt help Bavaria and Austria much.
Also, RPing a character death might be possible...we got plenty of boats...
haha just send em off die die in a storm
Well, Zirn already popped out a little one, so that's a big help to Austria. Arnold is still plenty young enough to have a full brood as well, so we can hope. For Bavaria, Lothar should start popping out kids once he meets up with Lyse (assuming that happens). There are already several Swabian children, including two that will come of age soon (IIRC). So, all we need are a couple more Austrian and Bavarian births/adoptions to keep things going as normal for the foreseeable future.
For deaths, there are two characters that are 60 years old, so there will be at least 2 more deaths during the next term.
jonas is old, gunther is old, fredericus is old, gerhard is getting on in years
Ituralde: Please can you confirm that Siegfried is re-appointing Salier as King of Outremer? The Kaiser appoints someone to that position each Diet. Apologies if I have missed the announcement.
I think that this is an appropriate time as any to use the new smiley:
:drama3:
Yes indeed. This is a corker of a Diet session. Brother against Brother, House member against House member, a possible succession debate and Wife edicts!
Yeah, there is so much going on. And everyone is afraid that the other stuff will drown out their stuff. My post was pure drama but I couldn't figure out any other way to get my character out of the pickle AG and I got him into. I think its safer with the Mongols right now than it is in that diet chamber. Too many people willing to kill their own mothers to get their edicts passed...
Hmmm... I wonder if that would work...Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Killing your own or someone elses?Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Jan is a knight. Here is the battle report:Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...00#post1614100
*edit*
Also, for voting purposes, is Warluster a Swabian Elector? Does he get the one vote? I am just curious because I have been trying to crunch numbers on voting. Without Warluster, we have 79 voting points. So, 40 is the number you need to pass edicts. The house breakdowns are S(17), F(25), A(14), B(19) and 4 for the Kaiser.
In case anyone is wondering about the health of the Crusade amendment, the Crusaders themselves have a voting power of 37 out of 79 points even though they are only 8 out of the current 18 players (or 10 avatars out of our total of 23). Of course 1 of those points is Hummel's but thats still pretty good. The crusaders are by far the most powerful voting block as long as they can break house loyalties. And if they grab the Kaiser, there is 41 and that pretty much seals the deal. Crusaders plus the Kaiser (or any other person with at least a 3vote which is almost everyone) can pass any edict they want. With this information, it is clear that King Salier does not have to do a lot of "horse trading" to get the votes he needs. He just needs to keep the Crusaders together and grab one or two more people at most. This also means that Matthias pretty much has this thing sealed up as the Crusader bloc is guaranteed. One of the ways this information is useful is in figuring out how many votes you need and then stop trading. I've noticed that people seem to be obsessed with getting as many votes as possible. And they have to risk "giving away the store" in order to do it. Its risky but if you think you have sealed up 40 votes, then stop trading. This would also put a limit on the people who are trying to use their bloc of votes as an influential "swing vote". Another thing this means, is that anyone who wants anything almost has to come to the Crusaders. Otherwise, you would have to convince every single non-crusader to join across house lines and the Kaiser to join forces on an edict.
Now I know this is overly simplistic and there are other reasons people vote the way they do but I find it interesting.
*edit 2*
Oh yeah, and the magic number for CA's would be 53. Which means you need 27 to stop a CA. And the one group big enough to stop a CA by themselves is....you guessed it...the Crusaders! I am having far too much fun crunching numbers and should probably go to sleep soon... :laugh4:
No, I am not a elector yet, I am still thinking on who I should take, and what House.
Well, they have you marked down for Jobst's kid so I was wondering if you can be an elector if your avatar is underage. I'm still new at this...
PK, I'll correct Jan's knighthood status.
Warluster: I've entered you in the playlist because players can vote without avatars (they can even become Counts). I put you down for Athalwolf as you posted that you wanted him a while back. But if, when the time comes, you decide you don't want him, that's fine. It does not affect the fact that you have a vote in these elections.
Ok chaps I'm off to Korea now.
I'll be back on line Friday mid afternoon European time, but thats about it for me and the rest of this excellent Diet session discussion.
Speak soon
AG
@econ21:
I have not yet confirmed anyone as being King of Outremer, quite on purpose. Seems like the heat is really coming on me now, I'm gonna reply in the Diet thread right away. I won't let the Dukes become that powerful without a fight! :beam:
OK, but you need to do it before the vote. The sequence is that the Kaiser appoints the King and he appoints the Crusader Counts - both need to be done before the vote, if they are to benefit from influence and to post build queues in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ituralde
Gives me another day, then! :2thumbsup:
I actually wonder with the dispute over the emperor and all, would Siegfried actually be allowed to vote with emperor influence and appoint the King of Outremer at this point? It would be more dramatic if he couldnt or it is not widely accepted and can lead to a debate over voting results :p
Only 3 people seem to be against Siegfried:
Duke Scherer, Hans and Hummel, this is no majority, and as thus Siegfried is seen as Kaiser.
@FactionHeir
I suppose that is a bit of a grey area, all things considered. :2thumbsup:
@Stig
The King of Outremere appoints Crusader Counts. But since he is appointed by the Kaiser, he could have an influence on it.
On point 1.) thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by econ21
On point 2.) Does this confirm that Warluster is in fact a Swabian elector? I'm putting a speadsheet together so I can track the voting and I wish to have accurate figures. This would increase the vote total to 80 and give Swabia a voting power of 18. This would also increase the threshold for passing edicts to 41. It would also increase the CA threshold to 54.
He's got a vote, so he is an elector. He should confirm his House - I am assuming it will be Swabia, but it does not really matter (unless he wants a quick appointment to Count :eyebrows:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Something tells me he is going to get a few PM's in his box due to that news...Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
"Please join our house as an elector for one voting session. We'll make you count. Then you can just switch when your avatar comes of age."
:laugh4:
Stuperman just brought up a good point regarding CA 11.3 via PM. If a new King of Outremer is appointed during the session, who gets to propose the edicts? I ask econ if this rewording is okay:
Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders. Should the throne change hands during the Diet Session, the privilege falls to the new King and any previously proposed Edicts are voided and must be seconded in the Council of Crusaders again.
Can't we pass something that says that the King and Crusader Counts have to be picked by the Kaiser before the session actually starts. The same kind of thing is going on with legislation about the Prince being announced right away. That way, the Kaiser can't sit on the King appointment and then turn around and screw over the current King and everything he worked to get passed that session. It is not fair to give someone less than one day of the session to get their stuff worked on.
The King should have a guarenteed 3 days of Diet session to work on his legislation just like the Dukes have. Otherwise, the King really becomes weakened and the Kaiser has a massive amount of influence over him. The Kaiser could conceivably wait until 5 minutes before the Diet session ended and then change Kings.
While the above makes sense OOC, I can not agree to it IC. :evilgrin:
Yeah, there is a point where, even if it is not technically against the rules, it could quite possibly lead to the game being unplayable. Or at least not very fun. Giving people only 5 minutes to write edicts, get them seconded, and then horse trade the votes is pretty nasty. Legal, but nasty...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ituralde
*edit*
Also, would such a move invalidate all the Crusader Count influence? If it did, 5 minutes before voting started, the Kaiser could kill 6 votes right there.
If this Kaiser is planning even half of what I'm thinking, he is one slick mother!@#$%$
I wonder what we would do without the legal accumen of TC, I think CA11.4 runs the balance very nicely personally. I'd still like to see a formal time for announcing the KOTO (king of the outremer), PK has a good point about re-assigning the post last minute should the Kaiser not like the direction of the edicts.
Are 11.3 and 11.4 mutually exclusive?
What happens if 11.4 passes, and KOTO is re-assigned after he has proposed outremer edicts, are they null and void?
Take your pick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
Quote:
3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.
Quote:
5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
Heh, I just thought of another loophole that the Kaiser can use.
Should I intend to turn really evil, I'll make sure to turn to GH for some advice. He has shown that he has a knack for it. :2thumbsup:
All parts of the Library are updated, except for the House organization list and the avatar titles. Barring those areas, please let me know if you see any mistakes.
Some interesting things to note:
- Spain has become a major power. If you check the actual save, they are on the verge of more conquests as well.
- Franconia has an unusually high number of tournament traits in their avatars.
- Dread seems to be popular lately.
- Peter von Kastilien has taken a major dive in loyalty (to 2) and has 0 piety. This could be useful for RPing him.
- Hans has so many traits that I dread every time I have to paste together his portrait.
- Conrad Salier has so many retinue that they're longer than his trait list. He has also somehow gained an extra command star, even though I can't see any difference in his traits.
- Friederich Scherer is responsible for 4 out of the 6 famous battles of the HRE, all 4 are against the French near Paris, and 3 were in the last Chancellorship term.
- Franconia is facing the end of its avatar hegemony - Friederich von Hamburg and Gunther von Kastilien will definitely die this term and Jonas von Mahren will likely die this term. Other than adoption, the only way they can obtain a new avatar anytime soon is via marriage to the 33 year old Hedewigis von Saxony.
- Austria seems to be emerging from its avatar problems. They have a new son (0 years old) and also two daughters of marriageable age (both Mahrens).
- Thorn seems to be a great holiday resort. Five avatars are in or near the settlement.
I think that only Spain will end up being able to challenge us. France is gone, thanks to Portugal seizing Bordeaux. Bring on the rival Hapsburgs!
Actually, Portugal is about to lose Rennes to France and Pamplona to Spain. They are close to extinction, contrary to what it looks like on the current world map.
Why is only one Swabian in Swabia? I want to fight the French, not be stuck in Adana, yet it will take Wolfgang at least 7 turns to return back to France.
And Franconia hasn't lost it's boom of avatars. Jens von Kassel keeps on having children.
Couldn't we call a Crusade against Toulouse, just so some avatars can hurry back home, because it's ridiculous that there's only one avatar on our enitre western front. The next closest to Frederich at Paris is Siegfried at Hamburg.
Absolutely not. Not with Jerusalem in Saracen hands.Quote:
Couldn't we call a Crusade against Toulouse, just so some avatars can hurry back home, because it's ridiculous that there's only one avatar on our enitre western front. The next closest to Frederich at Paris is Siegfried at Hamburg.
Bow before my skills at killing the French
:pleased: :pleased:
Well I sick and tired of sitting in Adana doing nothing but fight pointless battles, and I haven't even done that.
We can't keep dragging this game out to the point of insanity. Can you imagine another 200 years of just conquering one or two territories every 10 turns?
We fight battles, we crush enemy armies, the way open to their cities and castles is clear, and we merely sit back and relax, despite the fact that paying all those soldiers is costing us money.
I do find it funny that it is Swabia that has the greatest percentage contribution to Outremer. There are 22 non-Kaiser avatars. 10 are in Outremer. 4 out of 5 Swabian avatars are in Outremer. Bavaria has the next highest contribution with 2 out of 4. Austria is next with 1 out of 3. And Franconia has given it the least contribution with 3 out of 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
And Ig, the reason your in Outremer is because your character's dad popped his two kids out there. You could have picked an avatar on the mainland. The last Kastillian brother. Or the elder Hamburg brother.
If we do that then the game is no longer fun. I'm not ready to quit yet. Are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
I think I might have solved the mystery. Conrad has a veteran warrior retinue who gives him +1 to command if he is in an infantry stack. In 1240 he was in Damascus so it wouldn't show up. In 1260 he is in an army stack out in the field so the extra command star activates. :book:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I agree, simply having us hunker down provides for an enjoyable PBEM for the tension it creates. I doubt there would be as much fighting in the Diet right now if everyone was busy with expanding to all corners of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
Will try to read as much as possible tonight and post something useful...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Good spot. :yes:
[edit]
Ok, the Library should now be completely updated. I have also shuffled a few Bios upwards so that all the 'empties' are at the bottom. For completeness though, I would like to know the Elector 'numbers' of the following Swabians and Franconians. I cannot find this information anywhere:
- Ignoramus - Wolfgang Hümmel, ? Elector of Swabia, Knight
- econ21 - Elberhard, Prince, Count of Rheims, Crusader Count of Acre, ? Elector of Swabia, Knight
- Warluster - Athalwolf von Salza, ? Elector of Swabia
- gibsonsg91921 - Péter von Kastilien, Count of Breslau, ? Elector of Franconia, Knight
- Privateerkev - Jan von Hamburg, Crusader Count of Edessa, ? Elector of Franconia, Knight
TC: Id suggest that we just recount all the elector numbers, so Xdeathfire would be 1st elector, me 2nd, Elberhard 3rd and Wolfgang 4th for instance. Saves a lot of trouble.
Considering boredom due to lack of expansion:
I can understand that and personally wouldnt mind expanding more. Maybe its time for another OOC CA that allows us to process(underscore)cq every AI settlement say twice a chancellorship (start of term and mid term)
Well I think that we are doing good now, not to much expanding is good, sides there's enough fighting to do.
Horse Lords, Thorn, Paris, Hungary and the Milanese Isles.
If you happen to be in a less active position, go to your Duke and request to be moved to a more challenging position.
The thing is that we hardly get to fight offensive battles these days, as in sige attacks and fighting on enemy soil. Mainly defending our own lands from attacks that we could stop by getting to the source.
I dunno what people think, but maybe regardless of whether Siegfried or Hans wins emperorship, we can make a few regions rebel for fun? (or even donate em to some AI who could have been secretly plotting) and then retake em. Would give our interior generals something to do.
Btw, anyone already planning the next big PBM after this one? I have already made a lot of thoughts about it and got a basic charter (expanded KOTR) outlined already.
As long as they are Swabian regions I have no problem ~D
Sides I fought quite some offensive battles using the FHA the last few turns. And I take it the SHA will be going to do the same when it is reinforced again, it won't attack a city, but it can always do little excursions into French territory to destroy an army.
Same as fighting the Horse Lords, and for Bavaria. And Austria seems to go and attack as well.
As for the next big PBM, seeing all the PBMs are about much played European factions I would suggest some lower profile faction (personally I'm having loads of fun with Portugal)
I personally wouldn't mind a little bit more expansion either, letting some settlements rebel sounds like it could be interesting, although some preperation may be necessary.
Aye, we will need to look which settlements are more rebellious and which not.
Sides a Bavarian settlement won't rebel if Hans doesn't become Kaiser. Bern would rebel. Same for Siegfried, why would Budapest rebel? The people in Stettin haven't been happy for quite some time, maybe they would finally rebel.
I'm not sure I follow this logic. How does a different Kaiser mena more/less rebellion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
EDIT: Thanks again TC for the Library Updates, it sounds like it's a huge job!!!
This is essentially a question as to whether we want to end the game or not. We've managed to get ourselves into a position where if we continue to expand slowly or not at all, we will keep getting assaulted from all sides on a regular basis, providing battles for those who wish to fight them, as well as the politics that results from war. If we expand again, we will simply shatter this balance and there won't be any point in continuing the game much longer. Look at the current power charts if you need proof. We are already so much more powerful than everyone else, that it's only our own internal restraints that are keeping us from walking all over everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
So the question the becomes, what is more enjoyable: continuing to play like we are currently, or starting over?
My vote is very strongly behind continuing this game. As we've seen from WOTS and KOTR, the vast majority of the fun factor in these games is from role-playing and IC politics. Getting the victory screen has absolutely no importance. We have now come to a point where the internal politics are very complex, the alliances convoluted, and the intrigue palpable. These things do not evolve instantly, because it takes time for people to get a feel for their characters and figure out where they want to go. If we restart, everything will have to be started over from scratch. On top of that, restarting means going back to having far too few avatars for players. We seem to be at the sweet spot right now, where we have a couple more avatars than players, allowing everyone a chance to participate fully. Starting a new game means some people may have to wait several months again to get new avatars.
So, I would like us to stick with this game for a good while longer, which means no more serious expansion. I am all for letting places rebel and generally reducing the size of the HRE. That was something I was pursuing with my proposed starvation of Outremer. If you can figure out another IC way to do it, I'm all for it. I would be happy to see settlements rebel, but it seems to me that it has to be done by legislation, otherwise the Chancellor will be impeached just like Ulrich.
I didn't say that, all I said was that when Hans becomes Kaiser mostlikely cities with loads of Siegfried followers (ie. cities of counts that voted for Siegfried) will rebel. And vica versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
Next to that there are enough settlements that won't just rebel, most castles have happy people.
I like TC's points for continuing the game. Things are well developed at this point without being too stagnant. As for letting territory rebel, the problem with that is every house/Outremer would not want to let their own territory go but would probably be happy to see the rest of the Reich burn. This is not a criticism but an observation on how people are playing regionalism IC. I know Jan could care less if half of the European settlements fell away but he would argue passionately that Outremer needs to stay the size it is. And the rest of the Franconians probably wouldn't care if the rest of the Reich whithers but they would be reluctant to give up Thorn. The same with Austria with Budapest or Bavaria with Corsica or Swabia with Paris. We have constructed in game rewards for regionalism therefor many people have become regionalists instead of nationalists. If we want that to change, we'll have to change the attitude IC and maybe change the game mechanics so there is less of a reward. Just like Lothar's CA trying to take some of the rewards out of Outremer. If you lessen the prize, you may change the behavior.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thorn, Budapest and Corsica are not the settlements to give up. Certainly not Thorn and Budapest, looking how they have been defended and won.
And Paris is not Swabian, it's Imperial the last time I looked.
My only point was to highlight the problem of regionalism if you wish to give up territory. You actually prove my point beautifully with your defense. People on here are OOC talking about giving some territory up to make things last longer and be more challenging. While I support that OOC, we IC play regionalists who would not want our own territory to be lost. If we want an OOC result, we need to find some way to change our IC behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Yup, but than what territory is there to rebel?
The rebellious cities are not really the ones you named. Marseille, Milan and such, those are rebellious, normally speaking they would have more chance to rebel.
Sides we might be smart and let them rebel, but have you seen the enemy. We can't let Hamburg rebel, the Danes will take it, same for Thorn and the Poles and Budapest and the Hungarians. Surely the idea is rebelling and taking them back ourselves
Well, thats what we would have to figure out. TC said he is for the actual reduction in Empire size and I agree. But, I have been pointing out a difficulty in this. Because there are people IC who would not want to do it, like Ansehelm and Jan. So, OOC we need to figure out a way to convince the Ansehelms and Jans of the world to do it IC.
If you want to lose settlements and make the game more interesting without having to pick specific regions, I've got a method: We create a catastrophic event.
We simply disband every single last military unit except for 1 militia in each city and 1 infantry in each castle. Call it plague, rebellion, desertion, bankruptcy, whatever you want. The AI armies and unrest due to low garrisons will take care of the rest. We would probably need to limit recruitment as well, say only 1 unit per settlement per turn for the next 10 turns, or maybe only 10 units per turn faction-wide.
Yes but that can't be done can it, seeing the Horse Lords, the Russian Crusade and the reinforcements.
Just up the taxes and see what happens, that can be far more realistic.
Why can't it be done? Because we'll lose settlements to the Mongols? That's the entire point!
one point, if we lose too many settlements, it may compound our avatar problems. I hate to say this as a Bavarian, but northern Italy could rebel very easily, Long term it might be easier to let it rebel, then re-take and exterminate.
The avatar problem is a good point. We want to shrink the game to the size that it becomes more challenging but still have the game big enough to provide us with enough avatars to offer to those who want to play.
I'm stumped...
but personally, i like the direction the game is going. if we shrink the size and let cities rebel it just gets boring, like "why did we take it if we just let it rebel?" i would rather have a slow movement towards victory than taking a step back
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921
I'm inclined to agree a little bit, I still think that a a large scale rebellion would be fun to rp/necessary for challenge/interesting to engineer. But not just yet, maybe we should pick a number of settlements (like 44, one less than victory condition), then when we have that many have all the duchies lose 3 or 4 settlements each (decided OOC of course). I'd be interesting to lose many of the interior settlements and try and re-conquor them while defending our rather large boarders.
you guys still have the black death event to look forward to right? it will be exciting with the HRE military entirely dependent on the economy while the AI get money from God, you will have some tough fight then.
We are at a delicate point in the actual game.
As I have said in a few of my larger "gaming theory" posts, the game is simply the mechanism for us to enjoy ourselves.
If we destroy the actual game them we destroy our ability to role play.
It is with no surprise that with our stalled expansion, the in game mechanics of the Mongols and the money we are giving the AI, we now have had one of the best periods in the game to date.
The mind boggles at the amount of legislation we have, and the OOC knowledge you need to have in order to function effectively at voting time is staggering.
At one province per 10 years per house front, we are certainly having the time of our lives and I don't recommend any "feeling" of too few offensive battles getting the better of something we have good control of.
If people want offensive battles then get your trousers out East. Attack a few Mongol stacks. In essence the Reich is in defensive mode and it should remain that way. Another option would be to join Stigs crusade. Who know's what will happen there.
I personally want to see the Tirumad (can't spell them for the life of me) and potentially the New World. Plus I really want to fight with gun powder units.
There is so much to look forward to that I really recommend patience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneCold
God, I even forgot about that!! That's going to be great fun too.