Meh, another (unfinished) game from CA in the making.
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Meh, another (unfinished) game from CA in the making.
It wasn't an 'Outremer Crisis' it was a general 'Catastrophic Event' in the Reich. I have thought about it a bit since then as well and I don't think it would be good to really 'pin' the event on a single character, unless the player agrees to it beforehand. As we discussed before, I anticipate trying to do something 'massive' at the very beginning of the 1320 Chancellorship. I envision losing many territories (at least half) and essentially reducing the Reich to the core German cities and perhaps one territory in Outremer. At the same time, armies and garrisons will be disbanded all over the place, making us vulnerable. If it's possible to completely empty the recruitment pools, that would be good as well to prevent us from simply re-recruiting our armies instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
The 1320 date is designed to occur right before the plague and the Timurids, for further excitement. We've got a month or so before we're at that point though, so we don't need to discuss it in detail now.
Actually TC I think we shouldn't keep a core of German cities, we should simply keep the happier cities.
Then we end up with an Empire consisting of (for example:)
Hamburg, Frankfurt, Paris, Thorn, Pragua, Bologna, Milan, Antioch, Ragusa, Ajaccio (and some more)
That way it will be even more fun, as it's a proper rebellion, we have a city there, a city here, not some proper Reich.
:scared:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
My second reaction would be that would be a tough manifesto to get elected on. :laugh4:
My fellow Electors, I plan to bring the Reich to it knees, bringing forth an age of darkness unparalled in history. Few of you will survive it, and all that we have built will be torn asunder. Chaos shall reign, and I will be it's agent. I humbly ask for your vote.
I'm glad I won't be in charge for that.
Could be interesting though.
To make it fair, we would have to proceed IC as if we did not expect anything to occur. If no one else wants it, I will happily take that Chancellorship. I am confident I could manipulate the game well enough to make the 'event' occur and I also have faith in my ability to have Lothar survive any taint that might stain the Chancellor under who's watch it occurred.
:laugh4:Quote:
My fellow Electors, I plan to bring the Reich to it knees, bringing forth an age of darkness unparalled in history. Few of you will survive it, and all that we have built will be torn asunder. Chaos shall reign, and I will be it's agent. I humbly ask for your vote.
Great way to start the morning, thanks OverKnight
As for TinCow's idea, it certainly could be interesting. Given that we can roll over anyone in battle (unless it's thrown, like poor Salier) we need a stronger challenge. Engineering that will be a challenge in itself, but I do agree some event like that would be a good idea.
Smart. Very smart. That's a pretty good idea.
Beside that, I've a question. We've seen that our finances are in a pretty good situation. However, with the passing of CA 12.6 (the two armies per house one), won't that kind of ... be problematic? 5 more armies to support might impair our economy more than a bit, no?
For the most part, the HAs can be split in two and still be legal. Maybe throw in a few Cav units.
It'll take some time to fully implement.
Also is it tougher for you guys to try and keep the armies while at the same time suffering plague and loss of territories?
Hopefully so. In the early days of the game, the economic crunch made it so that the Chancellor could not fulfill all build queues. That added another layer to the political bargaining process which has fallen to the wayside recently.
Might be an idea ... tho from passive we would have to go to a direct approach again ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Actually not such a bad idea, we make a new CA saying that the Chancellor cannot be impeached anymore ... somehow we will agree on that. Then Lothar runs for chancellor and gets it (he has a Hummel as opposition?), and he brings the Reich nothing but destruction, however he cannot be impeached anymore, so ouch time.
The previous Hümmel was not too long ago, so that's kind of unlikely.
However, the 1320 chancellorship happens to fall to Ituralde according to his announcement, and as emperor...its not too easy to impeach him I would believe: "Impeach me and all territories gained will stay Imperial. And I am still young!"
I thought Ituralde was doing the next Chancellorship (1300)?
In an unrelated matter. . .
If you haven't posted a build queue or HA orders, it would be a good idea to do so by tonight. It also might be a good time to update, if needed, on the duty roster.
Currently we're having good chancellors.Quote:
The previous Hümmel was not too long ago, so that's kind of unlikely.
Sides we can still come up with some story ... Lothars Gang (~D) for example can make this happen. If it's done by a chancellor ... which is likely, we need to make sure we can't impeach him.
Furthermore no Emergency sessions should be called upon for atleast 10 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverKnight
Bavarian build ques will be up in a tonight (8-10 hours)
Stig, Please drop the "no IC in the OOC" (boy that sounds weird)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I talked OOC because I saw Ansehelm completely blow up over something Jan did not have much to do with. I was trying to calm you the player down. If I said IC, "I didn't do it", I wouldn't expect people to believe me IC. So, I said it OOC. Now that the election is pretty much over, I'll fill you in. It was Matthias that approached Peter and Fritz. By the time Jan talked to them, they were already voting for Matthias. Jan had very little to do with the "Franconian defection". But, Jan took the heat and kept quiet about Matthias because he was protecting Matthias's election. I know Ansehelm wants to see Jan as the big bogeyman but your OOC posts and PMs are starting to get an edge to them and I do not like where this is going. I want to contain this feud to IC but you have said some pretty wicked stuff in your PM's. I would like to just play the game with you and have us chill. I have zero problems with you the player but our characters hate eachother. I would like to find some way we can be cool OOC while still feud IC. AG and I have worked this out so it is possible.
True, but we briefly talked about an Outremer Crisis a page or two after that. It started with your OOC plea for CA 11.4. Your OOC posts gave me a lot of ideas. Now I can finally implement some of them. :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
The discussion is on OOC thread 9 page 13 posts: 364, 367, 374, 375 and some posts inbetween. Be proud TC, you gave me inspiration... :laugh4:
Now I've just got two questions:
1) Are their any lands we have taken that have not been officially incorporated that must be given away or rebelled?
2) The Kaiser has at least Bran to allocate...if he wishes...are there any other provinces in the same situation?
Paris is unallocated since Hans' chancellorship. Jobst forgot it, Siegfried doesn't want to give it.
As for unincorporated lands, all are incorporated or have a CA going that is working on the incorporation.
TC: You are right. I lost count of the years and thought it was 1300 now.
This is so true. There is a lot of nothing in this thread to be informed and how fast it fills up. To add my two cents I am back very early to do disappointing weather and injury. I must have been jinxed with the "desert bug" that Zirn was afflicted with in Damascus.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Some interesting developments but that just makes the game more intriguing. I will finish up my reading and continue to place my votes.
All this talk of counts and dukes makes me ponder how the feudal system really works.
Realistically speaking, a count's county was his possession just as much as a Duke's duchy is his possession in KOTR. I think that if we stay in a fuedal setting in the next PBEM, provinces should be assigned to an individual by the chancellor/faction leader, with the province becoming the possession of the receiving lord. He should not be able to lose it, but allow others to manage it in his name and gift it in his will the same way Dukes do now.
I know that. Ansehelm doesn't. Don't saves Jan OOC, let him save himself IC.Quote:
I talked OOC because I saw Ansehelm completely blow up over something Jan did not have much to do with.
I'm wondering too about our Feudal system. A Duke is above Counts, he should be able to punish them. But here he can't, he can take their County, but take the Crusader Counts, they don't have a County given by a Duke. How on earth can a Duke be boss if he has nothing to be boss about? Same for the King of the Outremer, if a CC loses his County the Duke can simply give him another one, oh the horror.
A Duke/King should be able to ban the members of his house from the Diet and such, just like a Kaiser can ban people.
Sure it is not needed now, but there comes a time when Jan becomes Franconian again ~:cheers:
I think it is good to have multiple sources of power and patronage (Count vs Crusader Count). It adds to the politicking (as we have seen recently).
I would not be surprised if in reality Outremer was sometimes an outlet for some who could not make it back home. Sort of like the French foreign legion.
One of the many reasons I plan on jumping houses at the next avatar. Your OOC correspondance with me has led me to believe that I will be unduly punished no matter who I play. A certain amount of political punishment is understandable. But you have led me to believe that your taking this personal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
If Jan loses the Kingship, and things get too bad, I'll just suicide the avatar or ask to transfer to another avatar in another house. Or even a common elector. I just IC and OOC do not want to be Franconian again while Ansehelm is in charge. :no:
Stig, you really should reconsider how your playing the Duke. The absentee-whip-cracker Ducal strategy is not working well for you. Just a suggestion before you alienate anyone else in your house. :yes:
And econ,
I totally agree that there should be multiple sources of patronange. But, the sources are wildly unequal. You basically have the King trying to hold off four scared Dukes. With the Kaiser or the Prince (hint hint) in the Diet to keep order, the King has a chance. But lately, the King will just be swimming upstream with no paddle no matter how nice he is.
If we can either find a way to balance out the power, or make the Dukes feel less threatened, then Outremer can work. Otherwise, it will probably be slowly nibbled to death. I rather rework it so it is at least fun again.
It kind of is, but I would tend to agree with Stig that it would add a whole new layer if Dukes had more power over their houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Maybe one of the problems is that being count isn't a big difference from being elector now that everyone has avatars.
The average character has +2 influence from stat (15 points is very easy to obtain) and +1 from being elector. So the difference between elector and count is between 3 and 4 total respectively.
If the stat bonus was abolished or the threshold raised (I would recommend basing on chiv/dread and command OR 20+, or 2 stats on 7+), then being count would make a difference.
Of course one could go even further and remove either the 1 influence a plain elector has, or double appointed influence points (including emperor of course) so the difference is really felt.
From my experience, Stig separates OOC and IC quite well. I would believe the reason you might not feel that way is because Jan has been working against Stig ever since really, making you take some IC comments maybe somewhat OOCly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Yes, back in the ancient post-Roman days when we did our test run, my drive behind ironing out the financial aspect was primarily concerned with power -- who has it and who doesn't. The more aspects of power we build into the game the richer the experience.Quote:
How on earth can a Duke be boss if he has nothing to be boss about?
I'm feeling the same way in regards to boss-ness here because of the disconnect between the game and the PBM. There really is very little a Duke (or King) can do to get his Counts in-line besides verbal harranguing.
Hmmm... something to think on.
Then we have had different experiences...Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
With AG, him and I can have our characters beat eachother senseless but we are still cool OOC. Sure there was a bump in the road last Diet but we worked it out. With Stig, its different. Anytime Jan does something in the game he doesn't like, he gets more hostile in here or in our pm's.
Well, as for greater control over your counts, you could have following system:
A Duke may vote freely as he wishes.
The Duke may remove countship from any elector in his house at the start of a diet session. (Phase 1)
The Duke assigns his counts at the start of a diet session, after removing counts. (Phase 2)
Electors who are not counts need express permission of their duke to cast votes.
Electors may vote regardless if at least 2 counts of their house support them. (This may be done after the count assignment - allows backrooming)
The only problem would be something like Austria, where you don't actually have sufficient electors to override a voting ban.
The above is a system similar to the one I was planning for the next PBM (after KOTR)
I do seperate them very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Someone who is discussing his avatars actions OOC doesn't seperate them well. Jan has been an annoyance to Ansehelm ever since he came of age ... as he wanted power. Ansehelm doesn't like that, simple as that. Hell I'm also starting to do this now.
You PK act as Jan, act as yourself, that works far better OOC.
And you should remember that Ansehelm is the complete opposite of Jan.
And I do think that OOC we need to work on something to divide the difference between things again.
Hell it can happen that the Kaiser has less influence than a Elector. While in real this might be possible, in votings the Kaiser is always right.
My point exactly.Quote:
There really is very little a Duke (or King) can do to get his Counts in-line besides verbal harranguing.
Then we have different playing styles. I have been doing stuff like this for years and am quite capable of seperating the IC from the OOC. On here, it is all me I assure you. None of Jan is leaking into this. I do feel confident though in speaking of him in a semi-objective way OOC so I will do so when I think it adds to things. Others do this too and I do not see you berating them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I personally very much enjoy the House/Feudal aspect of KOTR. It has become a central aspect to the game and has really made it vibrant. That said, we are very deep into the game and I think it would be a bit wrong to change all of the vassalge rules at this point. There are plenty of ways for the Kaiser, the Dukes, and the King to reward/punish their followers if they get a bit creative.
Whenever we do the next game, I think we should put more thought into the rank/vassalage structure to make it a bit smoother and perhaps increase the rewards for climbing the ladder. That's a long way off though, and can be dealt with in detail when the time arrives.
Completely agreed, that would definitely be a mistake. But it is something to think on for the next go-round.Quote:
That said, we are very deep into the game and I think it would be a bit wrong to change all of the vassalge rules at this point.
No that's not needed. But we somehow need to ensure that a Ruler can properly punish his elector if he says that the elector is banned from the Diet, for example.Quote:
That said, we are very deep into the game and I think it would be a bit wrong to change all of the vassalge rules at this point.
If the Kaiser bans someone Econ will simply delete all other posts, however if the King or a Duke does this the Elector can simply say: screw you, and post anyway.
In real, this person would be as low as a peasant. However here he can still come into the Diet and even vote.
The only thing I could possibly think of that a Duke can currently do against a dissident is to give him command of the HA and instrcut the chancellor to keep it at min strength. Then give as HA order to raid deep into enemy territory...of course that would require some cooperation from the chancellor - who of course has more power than dukes and could send anyone to their deaths if he wanted to.
There are plenty of things you can do, Stig. Giving and taking away Counties is no small thing. If anything, Jan's lack of a Franconian county was one of the things that made him flee to Outremer. Furthermore, you can give your Electors command of your Household Armies (now that there will be 2). This will give them battles to fight, which is an incentive for most people. At the same time, you can strip an Elector of command of an Army, thereby denying him battles as a punishment. This doesn't even take into account the biggest incentive of all: making someone the heir to the Duchy. Many players will do almost anything their Duke says if they believe it will lead to them inheriting the title.
If a Duke has a very serious problem with an Elector that cannot be solved any other way, you can always make an appeal to the Chancellor to have him help you. The Chancellor can go so far as to make sure the person finds himself in an un-winnable battle, facing disgrace or even death. This is another reason to be on good terms with the ruling Chancellor, as it gives you access to options you would not otherwise have. It is perfectly reasonable for the 'factions' that support the Chancellor to receive preferrential treatment and the occassional favor in-game. Remember: there is essentially nothing that the Chancellor cannot do. You may have to negotiate for what you want, but unless you have really angered the Chancellor, I suspect he would be willing to aid you in some manner.
lol! oh think of the stories thread after an episode like that. I'd enjoy it personally, battling against all odds, returning to extract terrible vengeance... sounds like that Hero with a thousand faces popping up again.Quote:
...keep it at min strength. Then give as HA order to raid deep into enemy territory...
That is absolutly correct TC. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Ansehelm's reply to Jan was basically, "you already have a county in Outremer so there is no need to give you one here."
not a good move if your trying to get someone to be loyal to your house. :no:
Was definately one of the nails in the coffin in Jan's loyalty to the house. :laugh4:
You forget the IC punishments in the Diet. In real the Duke could say against an Elector that that Elector wouldn't be allowed to vote, nothing stops him now (not an Elector is no Count).Quote:
There are plenty of things you can do, Stig.
And how is Arnold going to take away Household Armies?
And how do you punish people in the Outremer?
Just off the top of my head, here is a list of things that the Chancellor can do without violating the Charter. If you are in good enough standing with the Chancellor or are willing to pay his price, all of these may be available to you. If you have enough standing with the Chancellor to actually make him violate the Charter, there are no limits to what you can do.
1) Have your enemies' armies disbanded.
2) Have your enemies' armies march in the wrong direction, slowing their progress.
3) Have your enemies' armies march into battle against a much stronger foe.
4) Make sure you enemies do not receive reinforcements for their armies or only very poor quality reinforcements.
5) Prevent your enemies from having any of their build queues completed.
6) Have you enemies' avatars stuck in places where they can obtain bad traits.
7) If the enemy forgets to give instructions on the tax level of his settlements, the Chancellor can jack up the tax rate, disband some of the garrison, and cause the settlement to revolt.
8) Have your enemies with low piety march near Inquisitors.
9) Have your enemies march near enemy assassins.
I am sure I can come up with many, many more, but I think you get my point.
I was mistaken when I ascribed my views to the fuedal system. Actually, I was thinking of a passage from The Prince.
Anyways, something to think about. I think that adaquetly describes our choices.Quote:
I answer that the principalities of which one has record are found to be governed in two different ways: either by a prince, with a body of servants, who assist him to govern the kingdom as ministers by his favour and permission; or by a prince and barons, who hold that dignity by antiquity of blood and not by the grace of the prince. Such barons have states and their own subjects, who recognize them as lords and hold them in natural affection. Those states that are governed by a prince and his servants hold their prince in more consideration, because in all the country there is no one who is recognized as superior to him, and if they yield obedience to another they do it as to a minister and official, and they do not bear him any particular affection.
The examples of these two governments in our time are the Turk and the King of France. The entire monarchy of the Turk is governed by one lord, the others are his servants; and, dividing his kingdom into sanjaks, he sends there different administrators, and shifts and changes them as he chooses. But the King of France is placed in the midst of an ancient body of lords, acknowledged by their own subjects, and beloved by them; they have their own prerogatives, nor can the king take these away except at his peril.
Hence why it is a good idea to help the Chancellor get elected. Not only can you do those things, but you can get the Chancellor to refuse to let your enemies to do them to you. Or he will at least up his asking price. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
*The power of the Chancellor comes disconcertingly into focus*
So, Matthias, what was your favourite ice cream flavour again?
edit: very interesting quote CecilXIX, that's a book I have not touched but should at some point.
Just remember that Matthias is sober so the usual offerings of beer won't work. :laugh4:
Hmm. What happens when there's a tie between yes and no for an edict? It seems that's going to happen for 12.2.
With a tie, it loses. But the number of people who vote isn't the whole story. We have to add up everyone's voting power. That is your one electoral vote plus your influence. :book:
*edit*
Edict 12.2 is going to lose 31-32
GH submitted his votes to econ21 because he is away for a few days. Unless he abstained on that Edict, his vote will decide it one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Ah, right, I forgot.
Doh!Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Proxy voting!
The bane of the anal-retentive number cruncher...
:laugh4:
Well, even without GH's vote it would have passed, as econ didn't give me the extra +2 influence as steward in absence of the duke.
Econ said something about this last time that Stewards only get the +2 if there is no Duke at all like in the beginning of the game.
I have waded through the queues, HA orders and legislation and will begin playing on from the save soon.
Somehow I get the feeling that the Chancellor should get a salary...
The job has it benefits. It's made me a better player actually.
Hell I had to be Chancellor to get my character knighted. :laugh4:
Edit: I love Pavise Crossbowmen.
You are saying you just killed an idle Mongol stack with Pavise? :wink:
Battle Queue 1280
Check for latest save.
Busy year, not counting my own battle or one for Arnold, we've got five on the docket.
Only take the save once you're prepared to fight and upload. Post when you take and post a link when you upload.
Good Hunting.
Count Karl Zirn - Completed
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Duke Gerhard Steffen - Completed
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Duke Friedrich Scherer - Completed
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Count Fritz von Kastilien - Completed
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Count Peter von Kastilien
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The Mongols are never truly idle, but they tried to engage in a long range duel when I had the high ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Ahh, the usual scenario. Player moves ranged units into range to shoot the enemy, the enemy responds with only sending his missiles forward for the slaughter :grin2:
The AI really should've done an all out charge on ya from all sides. :tongue:
It was slightly more complicated than that, since almost every mongol unit is a ranged one.
Battle report should be up soon.
Okay, just a quick note to let you all know I'm back from vacation, and eager to get back where I left off. Well, more or less where I left off, as I assume Günther bit the bullet a while back ?
I do hope I haven't missed too much :laugh4: :dizzy2:
:balloon2:
Aloha DG, nothing has happened really
On the other hand there's no proper Franconian available now, so you might want to be a recruited general.
If you wish to switch houses, Austria has a spare avatar and could use another player.
Yep Günther is dead. You have a choice of several (non Franconian) avatars though. Of course you could also respawn as a Franconian general
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Negative Ghostrider, there are spare avatar's so we should not be recruiting General's. It's this meant to be a last resort to spawn generals?
Negative again, there were spare avatars for Warmaster Horus as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
Are you serious Stig!!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I thought we only implimented that as we had run out!
Well, we ran out of Bavarians.
Nope, Dietrich von Dassel for example was available, it was just so that WM wanted to be a Bavarian.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
Oh for %^&# sake. :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Look, I'm disappointed of us altering the game.
First it was giving the AI money, which is fine, in a sense, except that it defeats the purpose of having a level playing field. Although, we probably would have won by now, if we hadn't done so.
Secondly, there has been so many charter ammendments, that normal edicts are useless. I mean, how many normal edicts get passed? This is because there's no list of them, and if they get violated no one cares anyway.
And now there's the issue of recruiting generals. I mean, people like AussieGiant waited months to get an avatar, and now people are getting avatars instantly, just because they want to join a particular house. It's ridiculous.
Welcome back, Dutch_guy. I think the play list is up to date, so you can see what spare avatars there are.
We've also modded the game so that players can have recruitable generals in the event that there are no spare avatars in the House of their preference. However, Franconia is rather crowded right now whereas Austria is undermanned and has a spare. Would you consider becoming an Austrian?
*Mount Suribachi wanders into the Throne Room, he looks around, sees a few familiar faces and nods warmly before speaking*
Are you guys still playing KOTR????????
We didn't get any new once since he left :laugh4:Quote:
However, Franconia is rather crowded right now
FLYdude even left the PBM
Because the legislation didn't specify how the HA's will be formed, is that something each house should discuss? Or is it a more monarchic decision by the Dukes? Or, heaven forbid, is it going to be lumped onto the Chancellor's shoulders along with everything else he's doing?
Yep, and we're not even close to being done. I expect it will go until November-December at a minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi
There's always room for one more...
It's been awhile jumping back in the saddle picking up the save and playing now.
Bavaria got a recruitable general because Bavaria needs people. In the long term, they were worse off than the Austrians unless Lothar can figure out what to do with is new wife. *wink*
I didn't like the whole recruit general thing but I grudgingly admit it was the right thing to do for Bavaria. But, Franconia has plenty of people and Swabia and Austria have viable spares so we should think hard before giving one to them.
Have you seen a Franconian child yet PK.
There's only one house that needs players and that's Austria. That Wilhelm was already available when WM signed up, he should have picked that one if you go by your reasoning.
Before WM, it was Bavaria that was hurting more for the long term. Austria is hurting now but Zirn is poppin out kids and von Mahren's daughters are married which means they will have kids when the wonky birth mechanic kicks in. This was an executive decision made by econ and I must admit, I see the merit in it even though I do not like recruiting generals. Bavaria needed this so they can remain a viable house. Gerhard is going to die before the next diet. That would just have left two where one is married but no kids.
And yes Franconia has a kid. That traitor did one thing right before he joined the Russian army while still in Italy. :yes:
Just to add nobody was worse off then Austria. AG and myself waited for months to get an avatar. I was almost a month past him. It was our choice but I think the recruitable general should be a last choice for a new player. A member losing an avatar and wants to stay in that house could go with a recruitable general if they wish.
Here is the latest save.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1280-2.zip
A bit rusty but the siege is lifted. Will post stats later.