I agree with stig. Kingdoms definatly shouldn't be the new PBM, as stig said, not everyone will get it. I know I won't because of the Securom issue. I also think the campaigns in Kingdoms might be too small for a PBM.
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I agree with stig. Kingdoms definatly shouldn't be the new PBM, as stig said, not everyone will get it. I know I won't because of the Securom issue. I also think the campaigns in Kingdoms might be too small for a PBM.
There are many interesting mods developed for M2 while kotr has been going on. Deus Lo Vult, Lands to Conquer and Stainless Steel for example. Many of them include Blood Broads and Bastards like title systems which would add RP flair to another PBM.
In my opinion, starting a PBM on a new game is chancey. There are too many unknowns. In KotR for example, we've coped with bugs and game play issues. Also the general level of skill of the players is beyond the game to meet, we've had to seriously intervene to keep it challenging. I've given countless sums to the AI to keep the game interesting.
Carefully choosing a good mod on a stable game with maybe a few tweaks of our own would address many of these problems.
Still, I'd like to see KotR continue.
In that case you will get a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKill
As soon as someone with Kingdoms gets to fight a battle, or after the next Diet session we will move to patch 1.3, which also has Securom.
If enough people have concerns about 1.3, perhaps the issue of upgrading should be put to an OOC vote.
What exactly does 1.3 have that 1.2 doesn't in terms of gameplay?
I mean, an obvious drawback for 1.3 seems to be SecuRom, which, IIRC, locks its tentacles on your computer and refuses to let go. I'm really, really iffy on that point.
FH's mod has definitely improved the gameplay from an RP point of view. Do we really need to graduate to 1.3 just to get a better gaming experience?
Also, welcome RoadKill. ~:wave:
1.3 changes nothing about the gameplay, but it makes Kingdoms compatible with vanilla.
Since dual installations seem impossible, atleast for a noob like me we have to do it. I have not bought Kingdoms to gather dust on my desk. I have it installed and will keep it installed. I'm not uninstalling it everytime I need to fight a battle.
Securom does nothing, all about it is blown up, and mostlikely the thread has been made by someone who didn't succeed in cracking the game.
Thanks GH.
I never knew 1.3 also had securom. As Overknight suggested I think we need a vote, I am totally against having something installed to my computer without my permission, and to make it worse make it so its almost impossible to take it off.
Edit: Response to Stig didn't see it
Well, I would like to trust you, but the discussion about it pretty much convinced me that Securom is bad.
I'm against a vote.
I payed money for Kingdoms, and I'm not throwing that money away. End of story really.
Well, we seem to be debating a number of issues here at one time. I'll give my overall "vision" for the game and then try to address all of the issues one by one.
This game is a constant struggle for balance between "playing the game we have" and "making the game we want to play". This is where the "purists" and the "modders" seem to battle it out for what direction KotR will go. While I am most definitely a "purist", I try to strive for a middle ground. And that is "making the game the most fun for the most people."
I was against recruitable generals because I am a purist. I rather go with what the game gives us. We can be electors until an avatar spawns and thats what I am going to do when Jan dies. However, I see the argument for allowing recruitables to fill in the holes that are in the family tree. But, I am against relying on them entirely. And I am also against having them from the beginning. They should be a last resort, not the norm. To me, having the recruitables fill gaps in the tree allows that middle ground between us "purists" and "modders" and allows the most people to have the most fun.
I see KotR having tons of life in it and it may be premature to talk about the next game but I will indulge some of you and give my opinion. I think we should pick a game that will be the most fun for the most people and then pick a faction accordingly. I think we should have no mods or just the minimal amount of mods to facilitate game play. The "purists" like how no mods allow us to react to the crazy AI and heir mechanics and the "modders" want to show the computer who is boss and simply mod us the exact game they want to play. There should be a middle ground between the two that allows the most people to have the most fun.
As for the patch, I think the 1.2 patch is working fine and I am holding off on Kingdoms because my schooling could not survive Kingdoms coming into my life. Also, the idea of putting something on my computer that takes over a part of it fills me with dread. But, if the majority want 1.3, or Econ wants it, then I'll download the patch. Again, it assaults my "purist" tendencies yet fills that nice "middle ground" I keep talking about.
In that case 1.3 will also work fine, as it changes nothing. It just makes sure you can load my saves.Quote:
I think the 1.2 patch is working fine
It does not take anything over, it just sits there, doing nothing but checking if your disk is legal.Quote:
takes over a part of it
Concerning the 1.2-1.3 argument, perhaps the opinion of someone from CA might clarify the issue. I know many of them, Lusted for example, particpate on the forums here.
Perhaps we should consult with one of them? Perhaps one of our own with a working relationship with them should do it?
Well let me put it like this.
If Securom would be harmfull it would not have been put on the game. If it would be harmfull game reviewers, the real professions would have mentioned it.
I think thats a good idea OK.
I don't know anything about the SecuRom so my immediate tendency is to just say no and play it safe.
Something that might alleviate my concerns would certainly make me lean in the other direction.
I understand stig, that the Securom only checks if your using illegal disks, but, any hacker could easily use this as an advantage to retreive info from your computer. Well thats what a lot of people are saying. I have a many important files and account information, I can't risk leaking to some hacker. I don't know if I'm just worrying too much, but I would like to play it safe.
Then let me explain:
The Hacker-SecuROM issue #1.
According to many people SecuROM creates a problem which makes sure that during installation your firewall and virusscan has to be disabled. Which is when the hacker comes into play.
I can tell you this is bull. As I installed and never disable my firewall.
The Hacker-SecuROM issue #2
According to many people SecuROM is always seen as a virus and rootkit, and thus hackers can, would they first get into your computer, and then know that you have SecuROM, install another file with the same name that is really a virus and you will not recognize this.
I can also tell you this is bull, as I did both virus and rootkit scans.
Furthermore:
I get loads of high rated intrussions a day (on a University network) and no hacker, virus or spyware ever managed to enter my computer.
Since I'm quite active on the official forums I can bring you this view of a moderator (tho he might be admin now) there:
We had a discussion about it (on an another forum which I visit, has some of the .com mods on it and our conclusion was that the guy that started the threads was mostlikely a hacker that wasn't able to hack the game, and that most people who strongly opposed this had the game illegal as well).Quote:
essentially im on the side of the people saying its ok. the guy's main comments he cant back up and has no proof. and most of the outrage is that it didnt ask you. but no anti piracy stuff does.
there are no known cases of it being exploited, no proof its in ring0 and no proof it damages your computer.
Okay, I'm trusting you on this one Stig.
I just might get Kingdom now thanks to you Stig. :bounce:
Edit: (or maybe not)
I've been reading up on this. I've even gone on the SecuROM website to get their view. And I am getting really nervous about this. First off, I don't pirate CD games so this isn't about being mad that I can't hack something. I only pirate "abandonware" which are old discontinued DOS games.
But, from what I have read, SecuROM puts something on my computer that I can not remove. This might seem like a piddly thing but it is huge to me. I am the lord-god-emperor of my computer and I decide what is on it or off it, not some paranoid software company. Until CA puts out a SecuROM uninstaller, I am leaning towards not buying Kingdoms and not upgrading the patch.
I haven't made up my mind for sure yet whether this is a "deal-breaker" for me but I am leaning that way until someone can tell me how to get the thing off of my computer once I install it.
My battle report is up:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=145
Do you have Vista or XP PK?
On Vista you don't have adminrights, and therefore it needs to put a file on your PC. On XP it only makes a registry entry.
Furthermore mostlikely you read about the Bioshock version of this SecuROM. Kingdoms (and patch 1.3) have a far lesser version. The only problem is is that you can never remove it. Will it prove harmfull however I'm sure a remover will be made ... if not I know some guys at CA (via .com), maybe I can "persuade" them.
Now I'm confused. Overknight runs the whole game right? So the electors who hav an avatar fight the battle, so shouldnt the person with that avatar be posting the battle report. Kotr is getting more and more confusing to me.
OK himself has an avatar too, and that avatar can fight battles as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by RoadKill
I got XP.
The big sticking point with me is the "can never remove it" part. I want a way to get it off my computer before I put it on my computer. I don't care if Sony says its harmless. Its my computer. I am GOD of my computer. I don't like security software. Because, while I am a software pirate, I am not the kind they are going after. Yet I'm affected.
PK, thats the problem a lot of people are pissed off at CA, not cause of Securom, but the fact that people who don't pirate also get affected by it.
RK
Yeah, I would never pirate a game thats still on the shelves. Its a fine line but I only download old DOS games. Since the games are discontinued, I'm not really cutting into their profit margin. But, it is still illegal and I don't pretend its legal like some "abandonware" fans do. But, I still resent the heavy-handedness of the software industry.
Actually, I think you would be suprised of the number of things that are put on your computer by things as Microsoft and the like that you don't know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
And of that fact that people that aren't doing pirating and getting effected, on that matter I think the things they put on DVD's are far more irritating, as you can't speed them up and have to watch them damned commercials saying you shouldn't get the DVD illegally for over a minute.
Stig,
You're right, there are probably hundreds or thousands of things on my computer that I don't know about. I try to minimize them with firewalls, common sense, and scans but I don't pretend I have found them all. On the other hand, SecuROM is something I know about. Its an easy place to draw a line in the sand and vote with my wallet.
I think this is starting to get off topic from the thread.
RK
Yes and no. Econ asked us to speak up if we have problems with 1.3 and I am starting to have a problem with it.
You might have, but you will also have to see that some of us have payed good money for Kingdoms and want to play it. Which means others have to update to 1.3Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Not necessarily. I respect that you payed good money for the game but that does not automatically mean I am going to install something I might never be able to remove.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Econ and/or this community will have to make a choice. When it makes its choice, I will make mine depending on what that choice is. It would suck if it came to that but I blame CA for using such bull!@#$ heavy-handed tactics.
Oh and we have this:
First of all it says that only the Bioshock version does this (and this version is the "worst"), and that it cannot EASILY be deleted, which makes me think that it CAN be deleted, ofcourse I will not go and try to delete it, as I might @$#%! up my computer doing that (it might seem I know much, in reality I know very little), but I find it strange that you cannot simple delete a file from your PC.Quote:
Bioshock/SecuROM also accesses the internet and attempts to bypass firewall permissions at some point during its installation, and installs files in a hidden directory that cannot easily be deleted.
Well, everything I have read so far says its hard/impossible to delete. If I could delete it, it would go a long way towards making me feel better about it.
I would still have concerns but that is the big one for me.
Well, sooner or later some genius hacker team will find a way to take away the securom, I almost garuntee you someone will accomplish this sooner or later. So I'll get kingdoms at a later date when they find a way. :beam:
RK:
What sucks is, I want Kingdoms. I really do. But, if this security-thingy is as bad as I hear it is, I don't want it that badly. Its sad that things in the industry are going this direction.
My sentiments match PK's on this exactly.
If I remember correctly, the bigger problem with SecuRom is that to delete it, it must be deleted from your registry meaning that its not something you can just carelessly mess with yourself unless you want to accidentally do something and mess up your computer
Stig, you have an opinion on the secuROM matter, but it doesn't reduce or invalidate others OPINION on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Here are some "experts" talking about the Bioshock Securom version, which I know is not the CA version. I've still got no idea if the hardware changing issue and/or the registry entry are reversable in the CA version. AND That is what has me worried.
If you install patch 1.3 you will remove the current security in MTWII and replace it with secuROM, and there IS NO game play changes to the main game.
That's a fairly poor reason to patch that into your machine if you have reservations.
If you can't see that Stig then we have a problem.
------------------
Have a read gentlemen.
This is the Bioshock write up on the SecuROM which can be applied to varying degrees to Kingdoms.
It's a good read.
The most important aspect I can see are the very unimpressive disclosure that something is being put on your machine permanently and that fact that only a few hardware changes can cause the problems documented here.
http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/08/27/bioshock_drm/
------------------
Ok, after thinking about this, I made a decision. I am simply not putting SecuROM on my computer. This is not negotiable. If the community and/or econ insist on patching to 1.3, then I will simply ask for one of two things. I would either a.) want to work out something where I can proxy my battles. If this is not acceptable then I would ask to b.) be put on reserve duty.
This way, I get to play with you guys, you guys get to have 1.3 if you want, and I don't have to load that piece of !@#$ software on my computer. This is my stance until I see something that puts my fears at ease regarding SecuROM.
:yes:
the whole tripping after one mobo or HDD change makes me want to return this POS right now, I'm glad I haven't installed Kingdoms yet. I last 6 months on a mobo tops, I was looking at the new X38 based ones the other day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
Every six months...that's insane Stups. :yes:
Why?
Oh. . .btw, I'm taking Matthias in a slightly different direction. I'm thinking using it as a lead in to a story.
I wouldn't want things to get to "boring". :laugh4:
Let me just clarify. After running ProtectionID on the m2tw exe file, it found that it is still SafeDisc 4.6 and not SecuROM. So it shouldn't be a problem to update next diet.
Kingdoms.exe has SecuROM however, from numerous reports.
that might be a slight exaggeration, but I am on my third on 18 months. I've switched AGP for PCIE and changed form AMD to Intel, each required a mobo change.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
Yeah that would explain it then Stupes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
Why all the hardware changes and why so drastic.
PCIE / Intel / Nvidia is the best combo now, and it doesn't look like changing soon.
meh, I wentQuote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
4600+/X800
4600+/7800gt
E4300(@2.9hgz)/X1900XTX
I'm somewhat of an 'enthusiast' (nerd), :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Dude, we all play a game where we pretend we're medieval German knights and then we move a representation of ourselves on a map that is on the computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
We are all nerds... :yes:
Speak for yourself PK :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
I'm an international man of mystery and business. I regularly hang out with James Bond, The Saint and other such men of intrigue and standing.
And....I'm full of bull@#$^ too!! :beam:
Thank goodness for that. :thumbsup: Not that I am worried about SecuROM - I've had it on my machine for a year or so - but because this discussion was turning into a Mexican standoff. Unless anyone finds that the patch does install SecuROM, I suggest we close the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
I respect people's differing opinions on patching, but whichever way we go it is going to inconvenience some people. Either people without Kingdoms will have to patch their game for little benefit other than to keep in the PBM. Or people with Kingdoms will have to uninstall their new game. The latter is not a major problem for a short period, like the next 5 turns, but becomes a big hassle for the a long period, say if this game lasts until Christmas. On balance, I think patching the PBM at the next Diet is the best course of action.
Last word on it:
Aussie, Kingdoms does NOT (read: N.O.T.) have the same secuROM as Bioshock, end of story.
Sides as I said, I never found that SecuRom was even getting installed, and I never heard anyone from CA saying something about it (and I do talk to them from time to time). As I said, that thread was mostlikely made by a frustrated hacker, and FH just said that we can "safely" patch.
Actually, that doesn't matter. As I've said about 2000 times, the patch does not change anything.Quote:
On balance, I think patching the PBM at the next Diet is the best course of action.
Actually Bioshock and Kingdoms do both have SecuROM 7 versions. The only difference is that Bioshock also has limited activations.
Can't tell you the exact version number without the exe though.
This discussion really should be in the Citadel though and not here. As econ suggested, unless there is any more valid reason cropping up, we patch up to 1.3 at the next diet and there shouldn't be discussion over kingdoms vs bioshock here really.
Not really true, as I said I never found anything related to SecuROM, so for Kingdoms it does not put anything on your PC. And as you said the protection is still SafeDiscQuote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Anyway on safedisc:
It does the same as SecuRom really. Just not a registrykey but a file. It's as harmfull as the other. Only difference is that it gets deleted during uninstall (or atleast we take it that happens)Quote:
SafeDisc installs its own Windows device driver to the user's computer, named secdrv.sys. In addition to enabling the copy protection, it grants ring 0 access to the running application. This is a potential security risk, since trojans and other malware could use the driver to obtain administrator access to the machine, even if the programs are running under a limited account.[citation needed]
Even worse is that (beside the default configuration on Windows XP), most installers don't set the security configuration appropriately, allowing every user to let the driver configuration point at an arbitrarily chosen executable which (at the next reboot) is started with administrator privileges.
But as you said, end of story.
I HEAR you Stig and that's not my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I understand the version of secuROM is not the same, or at least does not have the same characteristics as the Bioshock version.
Can you ASK your CA friends to confirm there are no undeletable files and any and all hardware changes WON'T cause any problems?
I won't be buying Kingdoms as I don't have time to play these expansions anymore...BUT I will have to install the 1.3 patch so we can all continuing playing together.
As we both know, given the patch does ZERO to the game itself, I'm trying to determine if there are any HIDDEN problems at this time.
And before sprouting off some crap about that no one has said anything to date...therefore we are "All Good", then how about a comment in black and white stating that from CA.
Half the problem with the Bioshock debacle was that NO ONE said anything until problems were encountered by the customer. That type of behaviour leaves a lot to be desired.
Not surprisingly CA have said nothing to date on the matter.
if someone has a problem with me discussing the game OOC in this thread then go ahead and move it.
Edit:
So does it or doesn't it install SecuROM?? We can't even agree on that.
Just for clarification: Patch 1.3 for M2TW (vanilla) is SafeDisc.
Kingdoms 1.3 (the exe file) is SecuROM 7.
If that really is the case FH then we are good to go!!Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
And on SecuROM, for those who might be thinking about being Kingdoms:
As long as you have adminright for your PC it does not install anything.
I need a drink nurse!! :nurse:
While FH's statements make me feel a little better, I am going to hold off on patch 1.3 until I see how this all shakes out. I'll just go with my proxy/reserve option once this PBM patches. I am not convinced the patch is harmless and it is not going on my computer until I am satisfied. This whole securom debacle has spooked me big time.
This way, I get to be lord-god-emperor of my computer and you guys get to patch. :yes:
Belated battle report up:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=144
If there is no action taken on the battle queue by 0200 GMT (2200 Eastern Daylight) I will take back the save.
I am a bit alarmed at the number of battles being skipped lately. If you can't fight, update the active duty list.
Fighting now. Please don't hate me.
Who said you could speak? Get back in your hole! :laugh4:
Done.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1290-2.zip
Not worth writing a battle report for.
+1 to the Merciless Fanclub
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'm still confused about this PBM. Overknight controls the agents and character and is the only one that actually plays the game, after he is done doing w/e he wants, he posts up the save game. Then everyone can go downlaod it. So now what do the players do with the save?
Have a look at this post:Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKill
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=174
It is the last set of orders we got from Overknight. In it, he lists orders for generals who he wants to fight battles. Tincow's avatar was on that list, so Tincow downloaded a save and fought his battle, uploading the battle.
Basically Overknight plays the game on the campaign map, but the only battles he fights on the battle map are his own avatar's. Other players fight their own battles or they are autoresolved. In 5 turns time, Overknight's term as Chancellor will be over and we will elect a new one (although the Kaiser may use his one-time Imperial perogative to be Chancellor).
Wait, what do you mean upload the battle? How do I only upload the battle?
One of the forum sticky's ("A file space for PBM") gives this link:Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKill
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Up.../pbmupload.php
Click on this and you can either:
a) download existing savegames. You do this by clicking the "view upload directory link" and then clicking on the savegame of your choice.
or
b) upload your own savegame. You do this by clicking the "browse" button, finding your file (please zip them first) and then clicking the "upload" button.
You won't need to upload any saves yet until you have commanded an army in your first battle.
i should be able to fight mine tonight.
Econ, sorry I worded my question wrong. But I think I understand now. So basically Overknight selects 5 players to fight the battle, and those 5 will have to download the save game and fight the battle, but what I dont understand is then, won't Overknight receive 5 diffrent save games of 5 seperate battles, or how does it work? I know I seem really stupid here.
Each player that has fought his battle mentions it in this thread and gives a link to the new savegame, that he has uploaded, which includes the result of his battle. The next player then downloads that game, instead of the one previously posted by Overknight. He mentions this in the thread so that other people know that it would be futile for them to download the save now, before he has uploaded his again.
That's also why we number the saves, like kotr1192-1 and kotr1192-2 and so forth.
It reads more intimidating then it really is, you will see the post telling here is the next save and who is up to battle will take that save saying so in the post and it moves on. The tricky part was the file to upload and to make sure you .zip before you upload. If you have the link then your set when it comes your time to battle save it and post the link.
RK,
Think of it as passing a football instead of 5 different footballs. Each person who needs to fight their battle in a turn needs to get the football passed to them within 48 hours. But, most of the time, it doesn't matter what order the football gets passed. So, first person takes the football, tells people in here, fights the battle, renames the football, puts it back in the upload directory, and tells people in here. Next person goes and so on.
I hope my football analogy helped you and didn't cause more confusion. :D
dibs on the save!
fought and uploaded - 123pichosting is down so the results:
Start 1656 v 1131
Lost 131 v 712
Remaining 1525 v 422
Asking at this point in the game may be silly, but is there an end point we are aiming for? M2's conditions? Or something else entirely?
What does M2's conditions mean Tamur?
No I'm an insane football fan, and thanks I understand now. Thanxs for the help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
we're al thinking about football, the nfl season just starting and all
@Roadkill
OK's reign as chancellor doesn't allow him to do whatever he wants. Major actions that he takes must follow the demands set forth by Charter Amendments/ Edicts/ or Orders from Counts/Dukes. Ignoramus did it once in his chancellorship just to make things interested and an emergency session got called and he was ousted.
M2 conditions are 45 regions and Rome.
I think that's what we are aiming for, but trying to get there as slowly as possible.