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Why would they explain anything to anyone? Consumers continue to buy thier products no questions asked, expectations unfulfilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
This isnt the 1st title or 1st addon for them, they gaming business model has been working like this for sometime. Its customers like you who have chosen not to make the purchase based on this criteria, that, and only that is the method by which to expect change.
Eh? Rootkit with 1.2?Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
I hope that isn't true ~:( (about the roolkit with patch 1.2 for M2TW)
No, since I scan for rootkits every 2 weeks, and don't have any on my pc.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerH
@Odin and Lancelot
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my opinions guys, but I would urge you to take a look at SecuRom's own site just to satisfy yourselves that my interpretion of the risks are valid.
http://www.securom.com/solution_market.asp
If you spend a few minutes just reading though the Optional Products list in the menu in the left hand margin you will see exactly what Sony are offering their customers as potential valued added benefits with SecuRom, and by implication what SecuRom must be capable of doing to your PC.
I was particularly concerned with the additional features being sold to customers under labels n-CD and Web-Link.
Yeah lol "Collect valuable customer data for 1 : 1 marketing activities" doesn't spyware do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
Man, oh man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
CA have totally dropped in my expectations and views:whip:
Well I that puts me off ever buying another one of their games for ethical reasons. :yes:
Too bad guys, I had mostly enjoyed you're games but oh well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I didnt think so.
Exactly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro
Well to be fair the insertion of SecuRom on the kingdoms CD would not have been CA's decision it was probably made by Sega.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
Also as far as we know the option used is merely the basic CD encryption system, nobody has any evidence that it includes any of the value-added features offered by Sony. In fact, one of my biggest issues with this action by Sega is that it has been done in secret without disclodure to the customer and therefore the customer has not been given the option to make an informed decision on whether to accept the conditions imposed by Sega on the use of their software. I think if companies are going to use SecuRom or similar products then it should be their legal duty to inform the customer, before purchase, that their product includes invasive software which could compromise their privacy and system security.
The other thing we don't know, because it isn't explained to non-customers on the SecuRom site, is whether the basic SecuRom installation can be upgraded insitu. It would certainly make good marketing sense if this were the case...in other words....if the basic encryption programme could be used as a trojan horse to facilitate the download of other options like n-CD or Web-Link options at a later date when either Sega or another customer decided they wished to purchase the option. Also given the fact that Sony are offering to license out the SecuRom toolkit to their customers so that they can produce their own enhancements the ability to download such features onto pre-'infacted' PC's would make sense.
It's just sad that the paying customers are the ones most hurt. 99% of the pirates who get this game will already have had the copy protection removed before they get it.
I personally buy a retail copy of the games I want to support, sit it on my shelf, download and burn a pirated copy and use that for installations with my paid for CD key. It takes a few extra days for games to become available, cracks too...but it's well worth the hassle of completely avoiding any of this crap they try to put paying customers through.
Kingdoms is an excellent expansion, and I would highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys the series.
Hi All !
Sorry to butt in like this, but I have a question: Should I buy and install Kingdoms or not ? i.e what is the 'verdict' on Securom ?
Well to me it seems like this whole SecuRom thing has become more of a question of principle than anything else. At least, I haven't heard of any problems with it, and haven't experienced any myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
:balloon2:
To try to answer your question, Sinan, there are no current corporate exploits or known mass vulnerabilities in the version of SecuRom that is installed with Kingdoms. About 90% of the people who've bought Kingdoms seem to like it, and reviews are almost all positive. The risk seems negligible next to the reward, but...
1. You won't be able to uninstall SecuRom. No, not ever, not unless Sega decides to let you do it or you wipe your HD (Or some hacker comes up with a, no doubt, very technical and difficult procedure to eliminate it). No one has confirmed or denied that Sega could or could not update the SecuRom software remotely to incorporate additional features without your knowledge or permission, but that very possibility is one that the SecuRom people brag about on their website.
2. You'll be supporting a company (SecuRom) that is actively working to incorporate spyware into copyright protection schemes and thus into games.
3. It's obvious from an end user perspective that this copyright protection scheme is no more effective than older methods, just more invasive and burdensome for the purchaser.
This is an absurd and possibly offensive comparison, but Kingdoms is like a beautiful woman with herpes. You'll have a great time with her for awhile, but she's leaving something nasty behind you'll have for the rest of your (computer's) life even after you dump her.
I'm not buying it until the SecuRom issue is solved, and depending on how it's handled I may not buy it at all. There are a lot of good, clean games on the market right now competing for my dollar.
:egypt:
The problem for me is that that securom is a backdoor to my computer which someone can use to rob me and i won't be able to see it coming since securom disables Process explorer-yes you guessed it to hide securom
http://forum.sysinternals.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11000
I'm glad I found this thread. I was thinking about ordering Kingdoms, but I won't be now. Many thanks to all who've explained the ins and outs of the SecureRom installation here.
For my part....I have been assured by the techie guy that looks after my PC's that if I wanted SecuRom removed he has a tool that will do it. But that 'so far' nobody he knows has reported having any major issues with the software on their system, and so, he thinks that its benign.
The main storm of protest seems to focus upon Bioshock for which SecuRom has been used to impose a limit on re-installations. The customer was not made aware of this condition prior to purchase and I suspect that eventually this will result in a court case to test the validity of the Securom's presence. If so, we ought to get some clarification of our legal position.
Thanks for the replies!
I think I get it. Basically Securom will prevent you from launching pirated games or launching games without the CD. The latter case people often do with original purchased games just to save the hassle of finding the CD every time you want to play. Securom will also send data about the checks made to your system to the parent company.
Will it prevent you from having drive emulators installed as well ?
The fact that it was secret is why I'm pissed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
It's what they can do without my knowledge.
I've been reading this topic a little, and i find that having the original CD can sometimes be a burden, ever since i wore out my old C&C:Red Alert CD thus making it impossible for me to play as Soviets (i had no idea there were such things as cracks in those days)
the highlighted part is what makes me most nervous. I don't want anyone to be keeping tabs on me without my knowledge. If i wanted someone to stalk me, i'd let that creepy guy with the binoculars keep gazing into my windows :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
Also, i'm not too computer savvy myself, but whats to stop someone from making some sort of virus to mod said program and rather then it send system checks to the company, it sends every password i input into my computer to some guy who proceeds to empty out every $ he can find in my name right into his wallet? (yes, i'm paranoid, but its better then being completely ignorant when your on unfamiliar ground)
edit: Oh, and also, if you go to a restaurant and order a steak dinner, wouldn't it make you mad to find out that they add in a hotdog to the meal? If it came with something i didn't want, at least tell me before you give it to me (sorry, i'm bad at metaphors)
I should point out; I wrote "I think I get it." That does'nt mean I DO get it. I was hoping someone would say True ! or False !
Anyway that's what I gathered from reading through their website. I don't like that idea either and IMO if you bought the game you should be able to have a way to run it without the CD. I'm 9000 kms from home right now why on earth would I want to pack yet another item into my already 20kilo bag ? I'd want to just boot my laptop and play without the frekin CD.
Well, the Bioshock guys said it was just mostly for the release and not for the lifetime of the product(as you make the most $$$ during the first couple months) and would later release a tool to remove securom from Bioshock. The Securom on Kingdoms isn't a big deal. Its like Safedisk with 200% more lame.
Edit- Atleast this is what I hear floating around.
Have a proper bought from amazon version of Kingdoms.
AVg anti-rootkit hasn't picked up the secuROm thing yet.
However I've already had one instance when the DVD drive failed to read the DVD properly and I got a snotty message from sceuROM.
So what's the position if our original DVD becomes unreadable - can't see SEGA sending us a replacement - and will be able to install a replacement bought second hand?
I simply will not install anything on my computer that I cannot later uninstall if I so desire.
Especially not a trojan horse information collecting program that tries to sneak it's way on without my knowing, and causes conflicts with other programs I use.
A couple of points I'd like to throw in just for discussion's sake.
1. Regarding "erasing" files. Simply sending a file to the trash bin in Windows and then emptying it will not actually erase the file. Unless the system re-allocates the space the file was in, it will remain readable. Hence why you often see those "undelete" programs that can recover data. Also, even if you reformat your drive when you reinstall windows, the data is still there because the WinXP until does not do a 'zero-fill' and rewrite everything. Indeed I've reinstalled WinXP before on an old drive and been able to recover data from the previous installation. The best way to ensure data erasure is to wipe it using a utility designed to do so, which basically overwrites the sections on the drive the file existed on several times with random data strings. Even then, it's not 100% perfect, hence why professionals can often recover things that have even been written over before.
You wouldn't be able to detect them anyway, if you are scanning within your installed OS (which I'm guessing is Windows). Rootkits hook the kernel and completely hide themselves from any detection methods from inside the OS, including hiding their system calls and the actual files themselves. Things such as Sysinternal's Autoruns can only do so much, and do not show any symptoms of the current batch of rootkits which are pretty malicious. The only way to detect them reliably is to use bootable cds that run specialized detection software (like some of the forensics specialized linux distros), or stick the drive in another PC that doesn't boot from it and run forensics that way. I had a rootkit infection last year that was incredibly nasty, and it took me awhile to finally cleanse my system before I could back everything up before I reinstalled. THAT was nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
If you already knew that, great, then this is more for other's benefits.
:balloon2:
Disclaimer - My job is IT security which includes forensics.
Whacker you've installed Kingdoms right ?
we all did despite the outrage methinks
Sure haven't my friend, not planning on buying Kingdoms or any future TW titles at the time being either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
Me thinks I'm glad I made the decision to never buy another TW game again until it hits the bargain buckets (after the M2TW debacle).
Looks like it has paid off, because now I can see how this pans out without being a guinea pig. :yes:
I am a pre-order victim however i installed it on my offline rig so there is damage control
My whiny 2-cents: just commenting in the hopes that CA/SEGA will respond to this matter if enough paying customers bitch about it. Having been burned for my early purchase of M2TW and it's retarded AI (I'm going bargain bin from now on) I have bought my last TW game until CA/SEGA addresses SecuRom.
Someone from CA please speak up.
The silence is deafening.
I'm sure Sega/CA are aware that most people are ignorant of SecuRom, either it's presence or potential. I fell into this category and would have bought this game except for my new found lack of alliegance to CA.
I feel quite lucky that the side effect of my falling out of love with the TW experience has had the side effect of me being able to make a more long term educated decision on potential spyware.
But make no mistake, most people that buy the game will have pestered their parents for it and know little and care even less about things like this. This is the market that is being aimed at and their money is just as good as ours. and probably more plentiful.
It is a business after all.
I don't see what the big deal is. If you're so obsessed with SecuRom why don't you just not buy the game and search the sky for UFOs instead
Very interesting post. I thought that the full format and partition with the western digital-type installation disks (that often come with the HD's and have a DOS OS on the disk) wiped the HD but I guess not so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
Based on what you've said, it means that unless someone physically destroys a HD it's still a security risk (from a company perspective). What about passing the HD through an electromagnet? I ask because I have to use personal patient data in my work so I like to be aware of the risks.
Sorry about the threadjack
You dont see what the big deal is? Hmmm?Quote:
Originally Posted by SirGrotius
Many of us spend a great deal of time, effort, and money trying not to have our identities stolen by some SOB. Just yesterday I looked at paying a company $10/month to secure my ID. MS and the companies have spent billions of dollars trying to make the OS's more secure. But SEGA, in their arrogance, have decided that they will install this rubbish with a game! The irony is that these types of programs dont prevent game piracy but may enable ID theft.
No worries mate, this may be slightly offtopic but it's relevant to the discussion, seeing how this would relate to people's desires to ensure that data they no longer want on their computers is fully erased and destroyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerH
First off, when you format a drive these days, you really aren't doing what's called a "low level format", where your software will physically go through and set up a drive's MBT and physically allocate clusters. Current 'formatting', in terms of what happens when you go through the Windows 2k/XP install process, is what's called a "reinitialization". Basically the software goes in and based on how you set up the drive, set up partitions, the MBT, and "zero" out all of the clusters by setting all files to deleted. Note this is not the same thing as a "zero-fill", in which the software literally goes through every byte on the drive and sets it as a 0 bit. Hence this is why even if you format your drive 100 times, someone can still go back in and possibly recover a good deal of data. Professional security firms and the government also have the technology available to physically dismantle the drive and to levels of recovery that are much, much deeper, depending on residual data. I don't have the exact details, but it's amazing what they can recover. This is why the US gov/mil have military spec requirements for erasing data. Google for this and you'll see what I'm talking about, the spec is freely available and there are numerous shareware and freeware programs out there that will perform these functions if you want. The key here in terms of the game as others have pointed out is actually deleting the offending DRM files off of one's system, which is another problem entirely.
As for the magnet issue, does it work? The answer is yes and no. Yes, it'll work on most removable magnetic media, such as floppy disks, old Zip disks, and the like. It will NOT work on a hard drive, but just for safety's sake and your own sanity, I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you have a spare pc, and HDD you don't want anymore, and time to kill. You can even run neomydium (sp?) magnets across the outer casing of an HDD, and it won't have any or minimal impact on the data inside, because the outer casing shields the platters inside. If you want to have some fun, when your next HDD fails, take it apart. Inside you'll find some of those neomydium magnets which are VERY strong, and fun to play with, just don't get your fingers pinched because they will cause nasty blood blisters.
Cheers!
Edit - The only surefire way to ensure data destruction!
It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't
Why not?
Because they are the professionals
This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).
Or it's a matter of ignorance, in terms of what people are putting on their system, or understanding what the software they are installing is really doing to their computers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
And you never will, you can quote me on this. They may mention a thing or two in passing if it's really bad or obnoxious, or if they had problems with installing the game, but the odds are high it'll get edited out before it's published, because their salaries are paid for by the people advertising the games they are reviewing. You can also bet that no matter how bad of shape they are in or how rushed/shallow/lame, Hellgate London, Fallout 3, and Halo 3 are going to get at least 9.0 reviews on IGN and Gamespot when they are released, simply because of the dollars and hype that the publishers are throwing behind them and nothing else.Quote:
Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't
Professionals in terms of their job, yes. Professionals in terms of experience, not a chance. These people are simply gamers, some of who are not very bright at all, whose job is to write up their experiences on the games they play. They are no more observant than you or I, no more "experienced" than anyone who's been gaming for a few years. They simply get paid to play a game and write an article on it, just like we did in grade school with books.Quote:
Why not?
Because they are the professionals
No, this is people who get pissed because they realize what's happening to their systems, what they're being required to do or information they're required to provide in order to enjoy their goods. Dismissing it casually as you have is simply flaming and bordering on trolling. I for one refuse to purchase games that have DRM which requires me to "ask permission" any time I want to install and enjoy what I've rightfully purchased.Quote:
This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).
You are a fine example m8
Of the million buyers of a game 25 complain, so tell me, how big exactly is the problem? Not big hey
And I'm not ignorant, I just don't care. If this could kill my PC CA wouldn't have used it, they're not stupid.
As I said, about 1 in 50,000 buyers has a problem with this :drama3:
Nice statistics there, thanks for putting exactly how big this 'problem' is in perspective for all of us. It's pretty obvious at this point that you've got nothing to contribute to this thread, so why not go post elsewhere instead of trying to derail this one.
:cake:
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Mount & Blade installs things without you knowing and sometimes requires you to turn off your anti-virus software and yet people are fine with that but when SEGA does it then it's the end of the world.
But yeah it has been blown out of proportion a bit.
Sure it's the principal of the matter, we would love to have some control over what we install.
But I rather have Securom which provides SEGA with some comfort on my computer then Starforce which does damage on my computer.
That game still not finished is it?
M&B ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro
Not that I know off.
All that I know is that I got something called Mount&bladekeys in my reg despite I uninstalled it and I can't get rid of that entry.
You proved the first part of this statement false by your other comments.PHP Code:Originally Posted by Stig
And I'm not ignorant, I just don't care.
Just wondering... is the act of complaining about people complaining indicative of someone who is just looking for something to complain about, a hypocrite, or both?
Stig: "If this could kill my PC CA wouldn't have used it, they're not stupid."
Educate yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_So...ection_scandal
You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.
Big companies are stupid, and they do this all the time precisely because only a few people care enough about it to protest it. Yes, it's true, out of millions of customers only a few thousand get burned and you're welcome to roll the dice with your box, but I work on my computers and a .1% chance is still too high in my book.
Good luck. I sincerely hope you don't take a fall because you wouldn't take a stand.
:egypt:
Yeah soQuote:
You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.
Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?
Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use, CA isn't going to remove it because 25 kids don't like it.
Didn't see this in the few pages I read, so I don't know if it had been metioned or not, but excessively draconian copy protection IS a major consumer issue. As WAS said in what I read, there is no copy protection out there that is unbeatable. Most games are available the illegal way quickly after release, usually within a week or two. By putting draconian copy protection on software, the only thing that is actually accomplished is hurting those of us who legitimately and legally buy said software.
I believe there was a class action lawsuit against Ubisoft over the StarForce drm software installed with silent hunter 3 (among others), citing failure to properly disclose the fact and implications of StarForce, along with the violation of 17 USC 117(a)(2) preventing a user from playing the game using a legitimate backup copy.
Link to Full Lawsuit
Apparently their EULA was found wanting by the court.
Ubisoft was forced by consumer pressure, prior to and culminating in the 5 million dollar lawsuit to change their copy protection.
Realistically, as much as I believe companies should go back to reasonable or no copy protection, due to potential issues with the draconian measures which have negative sideeffects on at least some consumers, while not even being successful at it's intended purpose of stopping hackers/crackers - I'm realistic enough to know that isn't going to happen anytime soon..
So Stig - companies can be brought around by consumer pressure. Remember - not all gamers are kids; consumers can and DO make a difference.
I know you are but what am I! Neener, neener, neener!Quote:
Quote: You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.
Yeah so
Please do tell, I'm on the edge of my seat!Quote:
Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?
I beg to differ... it presented a forum for you to display your infinite wisdom.Quote:
Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use...
'So' Sony has used copy protection that did, in fact, kill people's computers, clearly refuting your previous claim. I'm well aware of what MS puts on my computers, but I suspect from the lack of substantive points from you that you are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
As I said, good luck. This time, from what little information we have, it looks like SecuRom isn't hurting anyone yet, but it took months to catch Sony's prior mistake and years to correct it.
:egypt:
Go go Spence...I would love to see Ubisoft pay out the nose for the Starforce debacle.
CA may not be mostly to blame for this mess with Secu-rom, but they are partly to blame.
The game industry as a whole, needs some serious work. From crappy DRM/Security measures, to the ESRB rating system and places like Wal-Mart selling movies like Showgirls and games like Gears of War, but not stalking Manhunt...the whole industry is riddled with inconsistancies and the consumer is taken advantage of at every turn.
Thanks bro, that was a very informative post/s. So your recommendation is not to install it, if I understand correctly ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
I want to buy/play Kingdoms but I don't want any Securom on my PC.
That is correct, if you don't want Securom on your PC, don't get/install Kingdoms. It may be possible to install the game and remove the DRM, but this is getting into territory that's forbidden to discuss by Org policy, and without researching I wouldn't know how to do it exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
Even in spite of the issues that the Kingdoms variant of Securom raises, the other thing to consider is that Securom is known to cause problems with other game copy protection mechanisms, and can cause certain discs using them to become unreadable by your drives. I don't have the link handy to those findings, if folks are curious they can google for it. So buyer beware, if you play other games, Securom may cause problems.
Thanks.
Man, this is teh l33t sux0rship.
Guys,
I have read through this whole thread and found it to be very interesting and highly informative. But, I am concerned that if we get into a flame war, then the mods are going to shut this thread down. This thread has served the useful purpose of educating us on this issue and providing a forum for healthy debate. I'd hate to see it locked. :no:
First off, I love CA and the TW games. I'm not looking for anything to complain about. That said, I think the SecuROM issue is important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
You are entirely correct that it is a matter of principle. In reality, SecuROM as it exists today is unlikely to cause many problems on peoples' computers, unless you're talking about Bioshock (and those complaints I can verify from first-hand experience). Kingdoms will probably not cause any noticeable problems for anyone on this forum.
However, that does not mean that it is something that we shouldn't be concerned about. SecuROM is one of the foremost representatives of a seriously troublesome trend in the software industry. Many publishers believe that copyright laws have not provided sufficient protection for their products against software piracy. In response, they have begun using increasingly draconian copy protection systems to prevent the piracy from occurring in the first place.
What people need to understand is that the copy protection systems that have begun to emerge over the last few years are increasingly venturing into illegal territory. In an effort to prevent copyright violations of their own software, they are starting to infringe on the rights of the consumers themselves. This is essentially a digital version of vigilante justice, and something to be discouraged. SecuROM is not so much a problem in and of itself, as much as it is a representative of a growing trend that poses a very real and dramatic threat to the general public.
Software publishers needs to be told that they simply cannot resort to these kinds of actions as the proper means to protect their own property. Often times 'slippery slope' arguments are derided for the fallacious reliance upon a trend that does not emerge. That is not the case here. The trend exists, is well known, and it is increasing in severity exponentially. With the emergence of systems like Starforce and SecuROM, we are now facing a future where serious issues, like those encountered in Bioshock, will become commonplace. In order to prevent this, we must confront the issue now. If we wait until it is wide-spread, the damage will already have been done.
Personally, I believe that it will take something on the order of a class action lawsuit to bring about this change. I am surprised that one has not already been filed regarding the Bioshock issues, as I firmly believe that has legitimate grounds. Until then, the best we can do is to bring the matter to the public eye and increase awareness of the very real danger these systems pose to the future of consumer rights in the digital world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I agree wholeheartedly. Quoth Ben Franklin - Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.
The class action lawsuit referenced in my above post paved the way.
Also note Stardock, doing it a bit different from most companies:
Linky
Video Game Company That Does Everything "Wrong" Gets It Right
from the good-work dept
tk writes in to point out that video game company Stardock did everything "wrong" according to many who try to sell video games: "they use word of mouth marketing, has no copy protection (the serial is needed for updates) with a (relatively) cheap price and they listen to what users want." Despite all of these "mistakes," however, the results suggest that such an approach worked. As tk notes, "they have managed to gain the top spot in Walmart. Best Buy, EB, and Gamestop are ordering stocks above their sell-in orders." The source of this info is the company itself on their own forums, so some may question the accuracy of it. It would be nice to get confirmation (or proof that this is incorrect). There is also an interesting follow up to this story. Since the company decided not to use copy protection, some are claiming that they want the game to be "pirated." It also apparently upset employees of a Starforce, a company who doesn't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to providing copy protection for video games. Stardock is now accusing Starforce of pointing people to cracked copies, in an effort to hurt the software provider for not using copy protection. As the company itself points out: "Our software gets pirated. We don't like it but piracy is a fact of life. The question isn't about eliminating it, it's about reducing it and trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it. Our primary weapon to fight piracy is through rewarding customers through convenient, frequent, free updates. If you make it easy for users to buy and make full use of your product or service legitimately then we believe that you'll gain more users from that convenience than you'll lose from piracy."
Great thread, folks.
I was going to get Kingdoms, but having been messed around by Bioshock I'm having second thoughts.
I know Kingdoms doesn't have the install-count nonsense that Bioshock does, but I'm still very unhappy with SecureROM. It was a great game, but in order to play it I had to abandon any pretence at system security. Want an admin account to install the game and a normal user account to play it? Tough, that counts as two installs. And if you just suffered a dead hard disk, using up one of the installs they graciously permitted you to have when you shelled out hard cash for the game, you're shafted.
It's like the "You wouldn't steal a car... Movie piracy is theft" adverts that they kept putting at the start of DVDs. You can't skip them, so that's 30 seconds of your life wasted when you watch the DVD. And they're pointless because I've just bought the bloody thing. If I'd pirated the movie, I wouldn't have to watch the damn annoying advert. What a great way to annoy your paying customers and have no effect on the pirates.
Grumble, grumble. Bring back the ZX Spectru, Elite and the Lenslok.
hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by foop
Not sure if you watch 'The IT Crowd' on Channel 4, but last week was hilarious in the beginning to do with that:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MTbX1aMajow
@TinCow: Spot on post. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter exactly.
@TinCow Likewise. Nicely put. If we keep quiet now things will only get worse.
Years ago I bought a computer game (International Cricket Captain) which would not work on my PC due to copy protection issues, I contacted the company and they sent me a disc without the copy protection on, free of charge.
I bet that wouldn't happen these days, although they must have had a fair number of problems to do it in the first place.
Just seen a review of Bioshock in Micro Mart a UK weekly computer mag it scored a zero with the quote "The best game you will ever see get a zero" solely on the basis of the copy protection system
A few days late but as a physicist I just can't resist to comment on magnetic fields :laugh4:
If you want to wipe your HDD, even dismantling it and denting or whatever seriously won't do the trick. Most of the data will still be available.
Even if you overwrite it with pseudo-random series of data for a few times, a lot of traces can still be found. This has to do with the fact that the magnetization used to store your data is not completely gone.
There is a way to erase your data (I think), which is completely demagnetizing the drive. To do this you apply a fairly strong slowly alternating field and then gradually weaken it. After some minutes (or hours depending on how paranoid you are) you'll have very few traces of magnetization left and those will be pretty random because of the frequent change in the direction of magnetization of the "elemental" magnets.
The key point is doing it slowly because you're walking along a curve called "hysteresis loop" and you want to give the magnetic moments enough time to change direction before lowering the field strength.
Would be quicker to chuck it into an incinerator and melt the damn thing, wouldn't it? :grin2:Quote:
Originally Posted by alpaca
Yep. I used to use the hammer method on HD's when retiring old computers, but now I use heat, since (as I understand it), it's a more reliable method if you really want to destroy the data (and the drive). Don't do it in a kitchen oven though, unless you like breathing fumes from plastic. I just chuck the drive in our outdoor patio grill after an evening's barbecue, and close the lid. I don't know exactly what the threshold temperature is for a total wipe, but looking at what comes out of the grill the next morning, I'm pretty sure nobody will ever recover anything from that charred brick.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapi
And that's one way to get rid of SecureRom. :beam:
Considering how quickly Securom was hacked, there are obviously a fair number of folks with detailed working knowledge of it and its flaws. All it takes for one of those folks to have malevolent intent and you've given them a free backdoor into your computer, your passwords, banking information etc. It may not have been reported yet, but Securom and Sony are hated nearly as much as Microsoft, which means as far as I'm concerned it's inevitable.
:oops:
Wow, I'm glad I swung by here today. I would have been completely unaware of SecuRom being included in the expansion. Looks like I won't be buying it now.
Between this and BioShock, SecuRom has saved me a good bit of money.
I am director of a library and we legally reformat materials all the time so I have a good understanding of international copyright law.
The issue as I see it is that most of the security programs used by game companies appear to me to violate the "fair use" of the copyright law. The game disk are exactly like a music CD. I have the legal right to copy a music CD to my MP3 for my own use. Indeed, many academic libraries have copied thousands, maybe hundreds of thousand old vinyl records onto a CD or MP3 format.
I have the right to copy a game that I own to make a play disk and then to archive the original provided that I adhere to the single user clause (i.e. I can't play the game on one disk while my daughter plays on the other using her computer) However, how does it hurt Sega if I put the game on a virtual drive so that I can play it without a CD in the drive? It doesn't and I ought to be able to do it. The same hold true with Microsoft (Please God, forgive me for mentioning them by name) placing install limits on XP and Vista.
I get quite frustrated with companies that assume that I am a criminal. Especially when they deny me the rights that I have under law because some people lack ethics. I thought in the US at least, though not where I live, that there was a presumption of innocence guaranteed by law. While companies are not the government (unless you live in China), I think that concept might still apply. I have in my more angry moments wondered if a class action lawsuit could not be filed by users and gamers against the companies because of this issue.
That said the only security system I've had lots of trouble with was Star Force. Other than that Caesar VI has a security system that you apparently must be logged into the Internet for it to check your disk for authenticity. At least the game wouldn't load on my computer without being online. No thank you. I'll never buy a game from that company again. Indeed, I took the game off my computer
Please note: I didn't see Tin Cow's post until after I wrote this.
Incidentally, another fairly easy way to prevent the theft of materials from a hard drive on a discarded computer is to have two hard drives (I have four OS-Drive/Game drive/My professional Stuff/ Wife's professional Stuff) Keep only your operating system and relatively unimportant stuff on one and any financial and personal materials on the other. When you get a new computer then simply transfer the drive.
I just read ( sorry if this has been said b4) that patch 1.3 replaces the previous vanilla MTW II security to securerom?? is that so cos Im DLing 1.3 and Im not buying kingdoms cos of securerom so if it is the case I wont be using patch 1.3. BAD SEGA
I bought Kingdoms and THEN discovered this thread. :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
Impossible to return to the shop. Now my sealed Kingdom DVD is taking dust on a shelf. Selling it means more trouble than gain.
I'm very angry with SEGA, Sony and SecuRom, because there is no trace of such protection on the DVD box (btw - and that is worse - Securom is on patch 1.3 too).
I will take more attention *before* buying next CA games.
From what I have heard, Securom is not on patch 1.3. If it was, I would be quite the unhappy camper...
Not true. The 1.3 compatability patch for Vanilla installs securom files and keys on one's system, I had to do the dance and force their removal using some special tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
C'mon CA, seriously.
Are you sure? I play vanilla with a mini-image, wouldn't that be detected?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
It depends, not always. Sorry mate, can't elaborate more than that in the public forums due to Org rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphic
Being nosey....Why is it impossible to return it to the shop?Quote:
Originally Posted by pdp
I only ask because of course returns are the only way this issue is going to get attention from SEGA. If everyone still buys and keeps the game then SEGA won't give a monkey's fart whether we play it or not.
because of the shop policy in my country allow return only for defects. Technically, the game works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
Thats a bit poor, is there nothing about misrepresentation. Course you could always lie and say it doesn't work, not that I would advocate such a devious strategy.:dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by pdp
BTW: Has anyone tried mentioning SecRom in a product review on Play.com or Amazon. The reviews never seem to make it onto the screen if you do.
I scanned my medieval2.exe (1.3) with ProtectionID (which is the tool of choice when wanting to determine the exact version and copyprotection on a file) and it shows as SafeDisc 4.6 still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
But then, that doesn't mean it won't install SecuROM files (i.e. just to put SecuROM there but not itself using it, or not pretending to)
I didn't say it switched copy protection mechanisms, I said it installed the Securom undeleteable files and keys. Not sure if the service itself was installed, but I haven't found any of the old Securom system files that I know of. Irregardless it's both pointless, stupid, and irresponsible to include those in the patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
The latter of my suspicions then.
Quite an interesting way CA/SEGA are handling this. Installing SecuROM without it actually being used (or at least not to my knowledge) in medieval2.exe
So they are pawns of Sony now?
I have tried once again to post a review on the Play.com site warning potential purchasers of Kingdoms that the game includes a hidden security protection programme. But once again the review has been blocked by Play.
It seems that Play don't want their customers to be forewarned about the implications of installing this game on their PC.