Ukraine Thread

Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
You may be right speaking of the sanctions which are being enforced now - they may be annoying, but aren't that effective. But, in my opinion, you draw a wrong conclusion. Why weren't/aren't sanctions effective? Perhaps because the West is reluctant to introduce the sanctions that WILL hurt? So, if you want sanctions to be effective choose the ones properly - like the one with quick money or whatever it is called. Otherwise it is complaining that the disease persists making the patient take halfdoses of medicines.

I am in agreement. The most effective sanctions would be the ones that halt the flow of oil and gas into Europe. Russia relies heavily on that for revenue but so does the EU rely heavily on Russia for energy. It would certainly cause a crisis in both Russia and the EU (unless the EU found alternative energy sources) so it will probably never happen. Another form of sanction that could happen is banning Russia from the SWIFT interbank payment system which would cripple the Russia economy further as they wouldnt be able to transfer money to banks in other countries, causing a default. Foreign direct investment has already been fleeing the country since Crimea and Ukraine happened (over $200 billion as I recall), but I suspect that also has to do with the FSB seizing private property so investors are reluctant to put in the money if they fear the FSB just taking it away.

Bellingcat published a map of Russian artillery strikes of 2014 aimed at Ukraine:
https://bellingcatukraine.carto.com/...21875%5D%7D%7D

Found a picture of a Soviet poster dating back to WWII (the guy on the picture is not me). It shows Goebbels whose propaganda is silenced after some military setbacks. But somehow the face on the poster resembles not only Goebbels...
Attachment 19282

I realize it doesn't belong here, but the topic was broached in this thread, so it is logical to follow the developments here. Montenegro prosecutors still believe in the coup and its being related to Serbia and Russia.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...n-day-attacks/

A court's decision on Russia's involvement in Ukraine:
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/d...cp170006en.pdf

current date and Putin status?

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
current date and Putin status?

It's 26/01/2017 and Putin is the most successful Fascist of the Third Millenium.

Shame on us all.

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus:
It's 26/01/2017 and Putin is the most successful Fascist of the Third Millenium.

Shame on us all.

As a Catholic, I have no problem thinking of this as the 3rd millennium, though I believe others keep the count differently. Moreover, we've done barely more than 1% of that millennium, so his competition for most successful is limited so far.

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus:
It's 26/01/2017 and Putin is the most successful Fascist of the Third Millenium.

Shame on us all.

At least now there is a "America first" in power to challenge him. One has to wonder will we get "Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles" fellow to Germany after Merkel....One has to wonder how Putin is so terrible while his kindred spirit Trump is so great?

Originally Posted by Kagemusha:
At least now there is a "America first" in power to challenge him. One has to wonder will we get "Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles" fellow to Germany after Merkel....One has to wonder how Putin is so terrible while his kindred spirit Trump is so great?

er....you are aware that "America First" is U.S. Jargon for quasi-isolationism, yes? Like most new first-term POTUSes, Trump is really focused on domestic concerns at the outset of his presidency.

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
er....you are aware that "America First" is U.S. Jargon for quasi-isolationism, yes? Like most new first-term POTUSes, Trump is really focused on domestic concerns at the outset of his presidency.

Yes. I am familiar with the jargon, but focusing in internal affairs does not make Trump a flower of democracy, now does it? I could post some of his jargon concerning women, minorities, media, torture etc. But i prefer not to post such language in this forum. There is a short path from populism to fascism and fascism is not restricted to Russia.Never has, never will.

Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
Found a picture of a Soviet poster dating back to WWII (the guy on the picture is not me). It shows Goebbels whose propaganda is silenced after some military setbacks. But somehow the face on the poster resembles not only Goebbels...
Attachment 19282

Tut tut. Attack the post, not the poster.

Originally Posted by Kagemusha:
Yes. I am familiar with the jargon, but focusing in internal affairs does not make Trump a flower of democracy, now does it?

It makes him a flower of flawed democracy:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...daily-chart-20

Originally Posted by Pannonian:
Tut tut. Attack the post, not the poster.

Did I attack anyone or anything in my post?

Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
It makes him a flower of flawed democracy:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...daily-chart-20



Did I attack anyone or anything in my post?

It's a pun.

poster
noun
1. a large printed picture used for decoration.
2. a person who publishes something online, typically on a blog or social media website or application.

Originally Posted by Kagemusha:
Yes. I am familiar with the jargon, but focusing in internal affairs does not make Trump a flower of democracy, now does it? I could post some of his jargon concerning women, minorities, media, torture etc. But i prefer not to post such language in this forum. There is a short path from populism to fascism and fascism is not restricted to Russia.Never has, never will.

Virtually all of our political history mitigates against a shift into fascism. We have had our darker and harsher periods as a Republic, that cannot be denied, but our citizenry is too entrenched in their own liberties and too well armed to beget a dictatorship. Worst case with us is an aggressive single issue POTUS -- like Polk -- and those folks tend to last only one term. Are we trending a bit that direction at the moment? Perhaps, but the pendulum will swing back.

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Virtually all of our political history mitigates against a shift into fascism. We have had our darker and harsher periods as a Republic, that cannot be denied, but our citizenry is too entrenched in their own liberties and too well armed to beget a dictatorship. Worst case with us is an aggressive single issue POTUS -- like Polk -- and those folks tend to last only one term. Are we trending a bit that direction at the moment? Perhaps, but the pendulum will swing back.

Some American leftists now have a fear that Trump can somehow become autocratic, but the more somber caution that the real threat is of sliding into a one-party state. Then again, your rebuttal might be that by the nature of the attempt the white Republican base could not be suppressed simultaneously to avert their eventually agitating against an increasingly-disappointing nationwide incumbency.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That style might be particularly suited to the forgotten "Have I got a reply for you" contest. Oh well.

To which the leftist retort would be that such an era would bring untold pain to their marginalized demographics and a transition away from a GOP state would not guarantee a transition away from (another flavor of) white supremacy.

...why I only count myself one of the tourists these days. :shrug:

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Virtually all of our political history mitigates against a shift into fascism. We have had our darker and harsher periods as a Republic, that cannot be denied, but our citizenry is too entrenched in their own liberties and too well armed to beget a dictatorship. Worst case with us is an aggressive single issue POTUS -- like Polk -- and those folks tend to last only one term. Are we trending a bit that direction at the moment? Perhaps, but the pendulum will swing back.

My friend. I am talking about Mr.Trump, not US as a state or nation. I personally find the comparison between the characters of Putin and Trump rather interesting. Thank the almighty that you do have checks and balances and hopefully Trump will come to understand the limits of his power.

Russia officially recognized DPR's and LPR's passports.
https://www.unian.info/war/1784497-r...passports.html

It's today and Putin is a Fascist.

Just in case anyone was wondering.

Have we moved so far that we may no longer refer to Eastern-European states as "post-Cold-War" or "former Soviet"?

Cause "post-war" sure seems finished.

I'd say Post-War has now become a historical period, what with Germany having achieved political and economic hegemony over Western Europe and German comics using Hitler to make fun of Trump.

The Cold-War is still very much reverberating through our lives though, witness Russian paranoia and the recent Romania protests against graft.

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus:
I'd say Post-War has now become a historical period, what with Germany having achieved political and economic hegemony over Western Europe and German comics using Hitler to make fun of Trump.

The Cold-War is still very much reverberating through our lives though, witness Russian paranoia and the recent Romania protests against graft.

Russian paranoia predated the Cold War....predated the Tsars even. Predated Russia for that matter. It is a formative part of their psyche.

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Russian paranoia predated the Cold War....predated the Tsars even. Predated Russia for that matter. It is a formative part of their psyche.

Which is why their foreign policy is not all too different from what it was two hundred years ago. Keep the near abroad very close, secure 'warm' water ports in the Med, Black and Baltic Seas keep the Polish, Germans and French in check and secure hegemony over central/south asia.

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus:
The Cold-War is still very much reverberating through our lives though, witness Russian paranoia

Not only paranoia, but the absence of elementary logics as well: they didn't (and don't) recognize DPR and LPR, but they do recognize "official documents" issued by the people they don't recognize as the ones who may issue them. :wall:

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Russian paranoia predated the Cold War....predated the Tsars even. Predated Russia for that matter. It is a formative part of their psyche.

How can Russian paranoia predates Russia?

Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
Not only paranoia, but the absence of elementary logics as well: they didn't (and don't) recognize DPR and LPR, but they do recognize "official documents" issued by the people they don't recognize as the ones who may issue them. :wall:

Not really that weird. Because the regions are in limbo, so to speak, the ordinary people living there are hurt the most, regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof. Anything that makes it easier for them is good.

Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo, but recognizes a quite a lot of document issues by Kosovo government and vice versa. It's basic decency. Even if political situation makes normal relations impossible, an effort should be made to make lives slightly "more normal" for people when possible.

Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
How can Russian paranoia predates Russia

It comes with the territory. Literally.

Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
How can Russian paranoia predates Russia?

Because the Rus came before Russia, clearly.

I blame the Vodka - I hear it leads to maudlin paranoid drunkeness, unlike the Mead the original Norse Rus would have drunk - which leads to riotous and violent drunkeness.

Originally Posted by :
Not really that weird. Because the regions are in limbo, so to speak, the ordinary people living there are hurt the most, regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof. Anything that makes it easier for them is good.

Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo, but recognizes a quite a lot of document issues by Kosovo government and vice versa. It's basic decency. Even if political situation makes normal relations impossible, an effort should be made to make lives slightly "more normal" for people when possible.

I'm sorry, but your example just shows how wrong-headed the policy is.

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus:
I'm sorry, but your example just shows how wrong-headed the policy is.

Never said it wasn't, but that's the way it is, at the moment. Not doing little things to make life easier for people would make it even worse, not better.

Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Not really that weird. Because the regions are in limbo, so to speak, the ordinary people living there are hurt the most, regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof. Anything that makes it easier for them is good.

Attempts "to make it easier for ordinary people" (I greatly doubt that such was Putin's intention, though, - rather a statement of support for DPR's and LPR's leaders who are increasingly disillusioned in Russia) don't make the move logical. Recognizing documents written by those who aren't allowed to do that beats all legal considerations. It's like recognizing a note from a kid's mother that he was sick the day before so he didn't come to school as a medical certificate. It certainly makes it easier for the kid to skip classes (when he learns to ape his mother's hand).

Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo, but recognizes a quite a lot of document issues by Kosovo government and vice versa. It's basic decency. Even if political situation makes normal relations impossible, an effort should be made to make lives slightly "more normal" for people when possible.

Invalid comparison. Serbia still considers Kosovo its territory. Does Russia consider DPR and LPR their part?

If one reads Putin's decree carefully one would notice that it never uses the names of DPR or LPR. It speaks of "certain areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine" never specifying what are those. Do they include those areas of Ukraine which are beyond the сurrent front line or those that were mentioned in the Minsk agreement (the latter states that Debaltsevo taken by Russians AFTER the agreement was signed is ostensibly a part of Ukraine-held territory)?

Anyway, this recognition is de facto an end to the Minsk agreement.

The Hague Court has started hearings on Ukraine vs Russia trial. Russia denies all charges claiming that the separatists found old Soviet weapons in mines.
http://24-my.info/russia-in-the-hagu...f-the-donbass/