Capo di Tutti Capi III [Concluded]

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Alright, that's horrible. You join in a random vig group to scare people off from becoming mafia? :dizzy2:

Unvote: Abstain, Vote: Gibsong

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He more likely means that the mafia have to think carefully about being too offensive. If there are townie vigilante groups, some Dons might feel more comfortable keeping their Luca protecting them, rather than going out killing with the family Made gangster.

I think it's a worthwhile strategy. After all, with a little organisation, the mafia families could co-operate to ensure their own safety and direct kills against the town. With the town so anti-vigilante killing, they can go all-out attack if they're sure there's no threat from the other families.

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

You'd think that.

And killing Quintus, with all apologies to someone who got snuffed the first night of a great game, was totally random. My vig group leader supplied a target, and we got him. Early on in the game, it's good for a vig group to show a little force and kill someone randomly so people who think of switching to mafia know the night isn't their friend either.

I just got bandwagoned the bejesus out of me, I'm hoping all the town players take note of who is voting for me and who they are unsure are their allies.

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:inquisitive:

That's got to be the worst reason to vig kill somebody. At least go for someone who behaves scummy or got a dubious result like criminal, guilty or unclear upon investigation.

Unvote; Vote : gibsonsg91921

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Originally Posted by Craterus

He more likely means that the mafia have to think carefully about being too offensive. If there are townie vigilante groups, some Dons might feel more comfortable keeping their Luca protecting them, rather than going out killing with the family Made gangster.

I think it's a worthwhile strategy. After all, with a little organisation, the mafia families could co-operate to ensure their own safety and direct kills against the town. With the town so anti-vigilante killing, they can go all-out attack if they're sure there's no threat from the other families.

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Sooo ... you were the vig. leader? :inquisitive:

Where does it say that?

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Originally Posted by Craterus

Where does it say that?

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It just came to me right out of thin air. It was a question which you or gibson can answer.

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Originally Posted by Craterus

Where does it say that?

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Because you were the only one supporting this strategy of killing random people, who may or may not be pro-town roles, without any evidence beforehand...

As far as I'm aware, there's only been one town vigilante group. I was involved but by no means the organiser. For that, you need to look to the man who promised "death, chaos, and destruction".

EDIT: All I'm saying is the town should at least have some bite. Who cares if you even kill some power town roles? Detectives can't ascertain anything for certain with the possibility of false results. How much does 'unclear' actually tell us? And investigate me and you'll get a guilty result, doesn't mean I'm not on the town's side? So yeah. And doctors? Even worse. We've got protection groups to spare. Clearly, eh ATPG? ~;)

People consider that a strategy?

I think I'm going to go lie down for awhile.

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Originally Posted by Craterus

As far as I'm aware, there's only been one town vigilante group. I was involved but by no means the organiser. For that, you need to look to the man who promised "death, chaos, and destruction".

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Right.. so you are responsible for pever's death and should have the guilty stamp for the remainder of the game?

I'm 1/4 responsible. 1/7 if you include the famous incompetent protectors. 1/8 if you include the organiser himself.

But yeah, I'll wear my guilty label proudly till the end of the/my game ~:)

EDIT: ...assuming I don't change role of course. If one of these protections ever comes back having been worthwhile, maybe.

Ok this is something we need to discuss.

As a townie or a wiseguy, you need to be a part of a group of 4 to vig. kill.
If successful, you become permanent guilty unless it is Mafia sanctioned. If you end up solo in a protection or vig kill as a townie - you can end up being killed. If you are a wiseguy and find yourself solo - you can become exposed.

Now, If you have a permanent guilty result, will this be removed once you progress to doctor/detective or made?
As a wiseguy in a protection group, declining doctorship will turn you to a townie. Will the guilty stamp be removed?
A mafia sanctioned kill as a townie or a wiseguy - will make you permanently criminal but only guilty on the killing night.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd

Now, If you have a permanent guilty result, will this be removed once you progress to doctor/detective or made?
As a wiseguy in a protection group, declining doctorship will turn you to a townie. Will the guilty stamp be removed?
A mafia sanctioned kill as a townie or a wiseguy - will make you permanently criminal but only guilty on the killing night.

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Presumably.
Presumably.
Yes.

That's how I understand it.

Select: Reenk Roink

I do not like how ATPG has so many fawning admirers, in my eyes his count is 1-1 one hit and one strike.

Vote: Abstain
I am not sure quite a bit of scum has come out in the last turn

FOS: Craterus, Gibsong, AVSM (who refuses to defend himself....)

Select;Reenk Roink

Still havent heard about the FBI result.

till then FOS:ATPG

Craterus wasn't the leader, nor am I going to throw under the bus the other members of my group. You've managed to lynch a bleeding heart townie for being a vigilante, now you want me to tell you who else was in the group so you can kill them? No chance.

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

You've managed to lynch a bleeding heart townie for being a vigilante

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"Bleeding heart townies" don't do vig kills on random people on Night 1. The only reason to do that is so that you can get promoted and join a mafia family.

Well, before I die here's a list of my night actions so town knows what's going on.

n1 - killed Quintus.JC so I can be promoted to wiseguy and then rogue detective. There is no sense posting my role PM because the only difference from the standard townie PM that isn't denoted in red text is the word "incorruptible," a pretty basic forgery. No one would buy it, I'm going to die.
n2 - attacked DJGingivitis. My group leader suggested him due to his stung reaction to Lord Winter voting for him - it was very scummy to him. He survived due to at least one, maybe two protection entities.
n3 - attacked Double A, survived due to luck. At the time, ATPG was very suspicious, possibly forming a new family. Double A was his alleged Doctor. We also suspected of him potentially being a Luca or Don.
n4 - nothing.

Use this information well.

edit: Reenk, make my death obnoxiously funny. Vig groups, be careful who you kill. The town hates having wiseguys and rogue detectives on their side :P

Unvote; Vote:AVSM

Waiting on those FBI results still Pizza...

Since no one else has bothered to do this, I suppose I will. ATPG apparently is fine with this being posted and I'm getting tired of sending this out piecemeal. Thus, here's the FBI result on ATPG:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

askthepizzaguy is guilty, but does not seem to have any mafia ties.

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I am going to Vote:AVSM until I hear defense:yes:

About the director...I had a long talk with Reenk, filled with :furious3::wall: and then :iloveyou:s

I just don't trust either of them:shrug: But since Reenk is not going to be around as much...Select:Reenk

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Originally Posted by gibson

n2 - attacked DJGingivitis. My group leader suggested him due to his stung reaction to Lord Winter voting for him - it was very scummy to him. He survived due to at least one, maybe two protection entities.

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Who was the organizer for this attempted kill? Was it ATPG, or were you separate from him all along?

Ok, I was hoping for something more substantive in terms of FBI investigation results, but for now the results posted by TinCow are all I have (the same results were sent to my this morning by a player who claims an investigative role, hereafter referred to as "my contact"). I'm tired of waiting so I'm going to post what I know.

The following is a PM I sent last night to my contact:

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

During the day phase following ATPG and GH's kill on Yaropolk, I posed the following question to ATPG:

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

3. Why are you so sure that CountArach and Yaropolk are guilty? I need more than supposed clues in writeups and the dropping of Russian names in the thread.

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ATPG's answer was as follows:

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Originally Posted by ATPG

3. The hit on Yaropolk would not have gone through if my suspicions of him were incorrect. I am incapable of hitting an innocent through this method. But I am working with someone, a partner, who was able to verify CountArach's guilt for me, while I was doing the work last night.

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However, the autopsy on Yaropolk has now revealed him to have been an innocent townie. Clearly, ATPG lied.

I called him out on this in private, hoping for an explanation. We just had the following exchange:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

It is often advised that, in games of mafia, the town should follow a policy of "lynch all liars" - that is, lynch anyone who is caught in a lie. Such behavior generally benefits the mafia and is unbecoming a player truly on the town's side.

I am giving you a brief chance to explain yourself before this goes public. Your explanation had better be a darn good one, or it's your head on the chopping block this round, friend.

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I am more surprised than anyone about the Yaropolk innocence thing. According to my role, I absolutely have to have a good reason to prompt a special killing of the kind. When I approached Seamus with the reason for getting Yaropolk, I had to lay out the same case I laid out for the town; I showed CountArach clearly dropping Stalin's father's name, and Yaropolk responding with Stalin's name, which again, had nothing to do with the in-thread conversation.

Why would they do this? In my role information it says the communists will be indentifying each other using the very code they used, which refers to the names of famous communists.

That's at least something you can see with your own eyes. Furthermore, I promise that I will never again participate in a killing of that kind, because if I was indeed wrong, that is the first and last time I will allow myself to make that kind of mistake.

The FBI result on me should be out today, please consider their testimony. Also consider, I immediately came forward and claimed responsibility for the Yaropolk death, I never once hid that fact.

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You claimed your hit on Yaropolk would not have gone through if your suspicions of him were incorrect. That was a lie.

You claimed you were incapable of hitting an innocent using this method. That was clearly a lie.

You did not claim that you simply needed to have a "good reason" to kill in this manner. Whether or not a reason counts as a good reason is somewhat subjective at least. The way you represented yourself, the mechanics of your role would prevent this type of mistake. You were not claiming that your reasoning was somehow incapable of being wrong.

Your explanation falls far short. I will wait a short time for the FBI investigations, but I will not wait long. Your influence makes you a grave danger to the town.

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That is fair enough.

As I said, I will pay for this mistake with my life if I must. A mistake I most certainly would NOT have made if I were a mafia trying to survive, but only one I would make if I truly believed I was acting in the town's best interests.

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ATPG's explanation looks woefully inadequate to me. My trust in him has dropped precipitously and I am on the verge of posting this in the thread.

[REMAINDER REDACTED]

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The guilty result on ATPG is explained by his hit on Yaropolk, and the lack of mafia affiliation is consistent with his claim that he is attempting to use vig-kills in the town's interest. However, the simple fact is that he was wrong about Yaropolk, and he has not been able to explain his dishonesty to me.

Therefore, I am not sure ATPG warrants much trust at this point. To me, he seems like the type of personality who would, like Sasaki, try to join the dark side in a game like this. I would not rule out the possibility that he's trying to start his own family.

At times he's indicated his role is in some way important to the town and that his death would be a significant blow; by his own admission he's had groups protecting him despite the absence of any attacks on him. At other times he seems nonchalant about the possibility of death (refer to my conversation with him above and numerous posts in-thread about his willingness to pay for the Yaropolk fiasco with his life). Which position he takes appears to be predicated upon what would be more advantageous to him.

If not for the FBI result indicating no mafia affiliation, I'd be voting for ATPG at this point. However, since my contact has provided me with other results, I'd rather pursue other leads which could make for better lynches. It might be a mistake but I'm going to go ahead and post most of those results.

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Originally Posted by My Contact

atheotes = don, most likely disco's
Beskar = criminal, no idea what sort (townie involved with vigs, mafioso, something else, who knows)
Kage = wiseguy turned mafia
Leet Erikson = part of atheotes mafia, not sure which role

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I will note that Kage was the third member of my failed protection of TS on N1 along with GH and that it's possible that he was the reason for the failure. I went after GH at the time because I had strong evidence of his guilt, but the above investigation results bode poorly for Kage as well. He is a player who seems to enjoy playing as mafia, and is able to win consistently in that role.

As a disclaimer, I cannot personally vouch for the authenticity of the above claims. However, I trust my contact for now, and am therefore going to:

Vote: atheotes

If this is wrong, the autopsy will reveal it and I'll know my contact cannot be trusted.

Select: Reenk Roink

I certainly don't trust ATPG enough to make him director. I think that would be a mistake.

Tally:

gibsonsg91921: 12 (Askthepizzaguy, Sigurd, Diana Abnoba, Haudegen, Beefy, AggonyDuck, TinCow, Kagemusha, Kukrikhan, Psychonaut, Proletariat, Andres)
AVSM: 10 (woad&fangs, El Diablo, YLC, Rhyfelwyr, Gaius Scribonius Curio, Xehh II, ACIN, gibsonsg, splitpersonality, White_Eyes
Sigurd: 1 (Shinseikhaan)
Askthepizzaguy: 1 (Chaotix)
Beefy187: 1 (Lord Winter)
glyphz: 1 (shlin28)
Craterus: 1 (Craterus)
atheotes: 1 (Kommodus)

Abstain: 6 (Moros, Twilightblade, Iskander 3.1, Khazaar, DisgruntledGoat, Ichigo)



DIRECTOR SELECTION:

Reenk Roink: 26 (gibsonsg91921, Lord Winter, Reenk Roink, LittleGrizzly, Chaotix, Twilightblade, TinCow, Shinseikhaan, slashandburn, Tratorix, Gaius Scribonius Curio, Crazed Rabbit, Beefy, Andres, Khazaar, AggonyDuck, Kagemusha, DisgruntledGoat, Craterus, Psychonaut, Ichigo, Proletariat, Centurion1, Joe Monks, WhiteEyes, Kommodus

Askthepizzaguy: 13 (Askthepizzaguy, Beskar, El Diablo, YLC, Double A, splitpersonality, Diana, Kukrikhan, Iskander 3.1, Leet Eriksson, Sigurd, Shlin28, ACIN)

abstain: 3 (Moros, Rhyfelwyr, Xehh II)




Oh, and by the way:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

askthepizzaguy is guilty, but does not seem to have any mafia ties.

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Guilty because, as I told literally EVERYONE here when I did it, I did a two-man kill on Yaropolk. But does not have any mafia ties. How very interesting. So about those rumors that I'm starting a huge mafia empire, folks.... can you stop them now?

Now then, what role could possibly do investigations and also do two-man kills.... while having NO ties to the mafia.

What could that be.

It's such a mystery, because... there's not a whole lot like it in the list of roles.

How very interesting.

What a puzzle.

Unvote; Vote:atheotes

Maybe we can tie this up, and everyone can get their way. I trust Kommodus though :P

I can believe now that ATPG is not making an empire. I was attempting to bring him down the whole time - that has nothing to do with attacking DJGingivitis.

:furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3:

It would have been far, far better if you had kept that information quiet for another round Kommodus. With all that posted though, there's little point in hiding this stuff anymore. I can vouch for his statements about atheotes and Kagemusha. atheotes is the Don from the same family as discovery1. Kagemusha is a wiseguy who was recruited by them. Thus far, Kagemusha has been working in protection groups with me and Joe Monks, forwarding information I sent to him to his mafia family. I was planning on vig killing Kagemusha tonight and moving for atheotes lynch tomorrow, before the family knew what hit them. Unfortunately, disposing of them in a stealthy manner is no longer possible. Thus:

Unote; vote: atheotes

Time to break out the vig groups for the hangers-on it seems.

:wall:

Unvote, Vote: atheotes

TinCow, if you weren't so consistently pro-town...

vote atheotes. This is the first time I have check the game in about 3 days and I see TC and his explanation. On another note I will be inactive for a few days but if anything count me as vote abstain please. i will be back and with a fiercer force than before. Until I return keep on doing what you are doing.

Alright, I'll join in on the atheotes lynch. The evidence seems sound enough. A three way tie might be a good idea. But will be tough to pull off.

Vote: atheotes

unvote: AVSM; Vote: atheotes