Hard Drugs should be legal

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

What if the one addicted is not harming anyone but themselves?

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Just like the drowning guy, eh? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Just like the drowning guy, eh? :dizzy2:

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If you jump into a lake with full knowledge that you can't swim...

Unfortunately, that can't be proved; but it's pretty hard to prove that you don't know about the dangers of hard drugs, not least the addictive qualities. I'm fairly sure that nobody will decide to smoke meth thinking that it will give them a light buzz and taste like candy.

@Div: I think the people arguing for legalization are mainly arguing that if you are dumb enough to do it, you shouldn't tax society's resources and feed illegal organizations in the process; none of us actually want to use them.

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Originally Posted by Reverend Joe

@Div: I think the people arguing for legalization are mainly arguing that if you are dumb enough to do it, you shouldn't tax society's resources and feed illegal organizations in the process; none of us actually want to use them.

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But if we legalize it then we can no longer crack down on the idiots. The War on Drugs isn't working, with that I agree - but I don't think legalization is the answer. We just need new tactics.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

But if we legalize it then we can no longer crack down on the idiots. The War on Drugs isn't working, with that I agree - but I don't think legalization is the answer. We just need new tactics.

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But why "Crack down" to begin with? If they harm someone, fine, put them through the system. Otherwise, why bother?

Man Attempts To Amputate Own Arm In Denny's

It must have been all of the sugar and baking powder in his cocaine.

It is funny though - when people cite how drugs are only dangerous when they are adulterated. Adulterated with what? Other drugs that you want to be legal?

Things that have been used to adulterate drugs: rat poison, chalk, dirt, sugar and probably countless others.

Who said they'd be legalised? Warfarin has its place, but not as a bulking agent for Heroin / cocaine. chalk is OK, but I'd not reccommend mainlining it.

Just as something is legal doesn't automatically mean it is 100% safe. You can overdose on iron, but banning iron isn't a great idea.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Things that have been used to adulterate drugs: rat poison, chalk, dirt, sugar and probably countless others.

Who said they'd be legalised? Warfarin has its place, but not as a bulking agent for Heroin / cocaine. chalk is OK, but I'd not reccommend mainlining it.

Just as something is legal doesn't automatically mean it is 100% safe. You can overdose on iron, but banning iron isn't a great idea.

~:smoking:

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So you can maybe sell heroin as a cleaning fluid in the back of a liquor store? You can't sell it for human consumption, because that would be irresponsible.

It isn't a cleaning fluid.

~:smoking:

Will you sell it for consumption? Can you do that responsibly?

Ever heard of pholcodiene or any of the drousy cough syrups? Their active ingredient are all opiates.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Ever heard of pholcodiene or any of the drousy cough syrups? Their active ingredient are all opiates.

~:smoking:

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Don't they serve a therapeutic purpose?

How would you suggest we implement this great new idea?

Most of my patients state they don't serve a theraputic purpose. I think that the cough syrup market is already well established.

Selling drugs? Sell from a pharmacy to those over the age of 18. Each comes complete with large warnings of dangers, what to do / not to do and a sterile, pre filled syringe if appropriate.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Most of my patients state they don't serve a theraputic purpose. I think that the cough syrup market is already well established.

Selling drugs? Sell from a pharmacy to those over the age of 18. Each comes complete with large warnings of dangers, what to do / not to do and a sterile, pre filled syringe if appropriate.

~:smoking:

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Over the counter without a prescription?

Yup, just like the other killers cigarettes and alcohol.

I've been to the local supermarket at christmas time to get a job lot of presents. I went to the counter with probably over 6 litres of spirits, a 16 pack of paracetamol and a 16 pack of Ibuprofen. The potentially lethal dose of spirits didn't raise an eyebrow, but I wasn't allowed both the tablets... Even though there is no interaction.

If you make getting safe drugs difficult, people won't do it. Sure, people will still overdose, but unlike the current situation where the dose could be 2mg to 20mg, it is a fixed dose.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Yup, just like the other killers cigarettes and alcohol.

I've been to the local supermarket at christmas time to get a job lot of presents. I went to the counter with probably over 6 litres of spirits, a 16 pack of paracetamol and a 16 pack of Ibuprofen. The potentially lethal dose of spirits didn't raise an eyebrow, but I wasn't allowed both the tablets... Even though there is no interaction.

If you make getting safe drugs difficult, people won't do it. Sure, people will still overdose, but unlike the current situation where the dose could be 2mg to 20mg, it is a fixed dose.

~:smoking:

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Ok, you guys do it first and we'll see if the rate of drug usage drops. Then, maybe, we will introduce similar measures. If you can't get your quasi-socialist mother state to give in to your ideas, why do you think we would try it?

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Over the counter without a prescription?

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For cough syrope? Can't get rid of the urge and there is always an alternative, like cough syrope. Cocaine and heroin should be seen as currency, that is the highest priority instead of the idiots that get hooked on it, white gold.

Who is trying to get drug usage down? Not me. I'm interested in getting crime down, and forcing the industry off the criminal black market and on to the taxable legitimate market.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Who is trying to get drug usage down? Not me. I'm interested in getting crime down, and forcing the industry off the criminal black market and on to the taxable legitimate market.

~:smoking:

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You can't make the black market dissapear because any control or government will make it more expensive, and some like it cheap, especially the hooked nothing will change black market will provide cheaper. There is simply no solution here it can't be solved.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You can't make the black market dissapear because any control or government will make it more expensive, and some like it cheap, especially the hooked nothing will change black market will provide cheaper. There is simply no solution here it can't be solved.

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Cigarettes contain one of the most addictive substances on the planet. And yet they have become prohibitively expensive. But how many people actually buy bootleg cigarettes?

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/...lyteethho8.jpg

Seriously, it's not a very big market.

Anyway, the alcohol industry has shown us the light already: you can always sell incredibly cheap, low-grade versions of any addictive substance to kill a black market. Which, by the way, is why the entire narcotics industry should be government-run, because a lot of the "hobo wines" are basically poison, and HOPEFULLY a government-run narc industry would have the common decency not to add such adulterants. Whether or not they are capable of such a thing, I know that it is still a safer bet than private companies, and certainly better than your average pusher.

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Originally Posted by Reverend Joe

Seriously, it's not a very big market.

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Cocaine and heroin not a big market? It is the very currency of the black market worldwide.

So, selling a pure product that's cheaper than an impure product is going to massively dent the market.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

So, selling a pure product that's cheaper than an impure product is going to massively dent the market.

~:smoking:

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Are you dealing with the outcome or the argument, I say you can't win this. Doesn't really matter what you do. But again, and again, it's currency, and as currency it is much more dangeroud then a few junkies.

The underpinnings of cocaine / heroin links with its real world price. If you flood the market, the price goes down. So the value as a currency is undermined. Zimbabwe has a currency. Doesn't mean it has any worth.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The underpinnings of cocaine / heroin links with its real world price. If you flood the market, the price goes down. So the value as a currency is undermined. Zimbabwe has a currency. Doesn't mean it has any worth.

~:smoking:

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And how would you flood the market? You would have to buy it somewhere els first

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Cocaine and heroin not a big market? It is the very currency of the black market worldwide.

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I think he meant the illegal tobacco market , so he is wrong as it is actually a huge industry and very very lucrative .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

I think he meant the illegal tobacco market , so he is wrong as it is actually a huge industry and very very lucrative .

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Good point. Looked at from another angle, the "llegal tobacco market" isn't actually that at all, but rather a "huge luxery tax-avoidance market". The product is the same whether bought from Los Angles or Moldovia; the difference is the tax-based price (and who gets the profits).

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

If you can't get your quasi-socialist mother state to give in to your ideas, why do you think we would try it?

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Because instead of having a quasi-socialist mother state to take care of us, we in America believe in personal freedoms. The war on drugs is much like many states' wars on firearms. We don't need it here.

Ajax

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Good point. Looked at from another angle, the "llegal tobacco market" isn't actually that at all, but rather a "huge luxery tax-avoidance market". The product is the same whether bought from Los Angles or Moldovia; the difference is the tax-based price (and who gets the profits).

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Well its wider than that , you have the common smuggling which is the tax avoidance , thats a damn good earner , I know of quite a few trafficers who switched from narcotics to cigarettes , and ordinary people who gave up work to get into this easy money .
Then you have the fake brands , which is fraud but also comes into the tax avoidance bracket .
Then you have the outright fakes which are so full of crap that they couldn't even be classed as a legal version of that dangerous and addictive substance , which is fraud , tax avoidance and a whole other pile of crimes thrown in for good measure .
It just illustrates that even when legalised you cannot get rid of the criminal involvement where there is a potential for easy cash , its a bit like the prescription drugs issue with illegal copies and outright fake versions being sold all over the world .

Touche' Sir. And well-played. We have to yield some of the "it'll reduce crime" argument. Legalization may eventually reduce local crime by elevating the mfg & distro systems into more transparent climes, but the knock-off industry, both local and international, will still thrive, especially in the era of interwebs.

Maybe more aggressive postal and customs regulations could put a dent in such industries. But the track record so far = not so hot.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Unlike alcohol, which will merely make you sick or kill you of poisoning if you drink too much, these other drugs can offer a fate worse than death. If you overdo it on hallucinogens like LSD, mushrooms, or PCP, you can have a premanent alteration of your perspective making you unable to determine reality from your imagination.

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I missed this earlier. Div, you're right that overuse of LSD can result in permanent psychosis, but you undercut your own argument by lumping mushrooms in there. Show me a respectable medical study that shows harmful long-term side-effects from mushrooms. Go ahead, look for one. 'Cause there ain't one.

Mushrooms are less addictive than ciggies, less physically harmful than alcohol, and don't do lung damage like pot. They're maybe the safest drug out there, right next to caffeine. They're a baby aspirin drug.

Don't confuse the quality of the high with the toxicity of the substance.