Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church

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Originally Posted by Andres

Man only has his short and pleasant moment of glory and that's it. Blame nature :shrug:

If the woman choses not to abort the child, then the man will have to deal with the consequences. Yes, it can be perceived as unfair, but the third party involved, namely the child, is innocent and needs to be taken care of by both parents.

Or do you suggest that there would come a legal possibility that allows the man to make a written statement in which he writes down that he wants either an abortion (and is willing to cover half of the expenses) or an adoption and if the woman choses not to, then by law he has not to take any responsability? For the sake of equality?

And if the woman wants an abortion and he doesn't, that she could be forced to give birth and the man can have the child with no rights whatsoever for the woman? Also for the sake of equality?

It feels... wrong.

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I think you demonstrated the basic problem with elective abortion. A man owns his sperm, fine, a woman owns her eggs, fine. Actually, this isn't quite so clear cut, there have been cases of women using frozen eggs from their ex's, which then makes the father liable for child support. It also means he has a child, it's the closest thing to a rape baby a man can have.

However, I digress. A feotas is 50% the woman, 50% the man. As you can't kill one half without the other, how can the feotas be viewed as simply part of the woman's body. From my perspective it can only be viewed as a seperate entity, and therefore the woman has custodianship of that human being until she gives birth.

What she does not have in ownership, any more than once the baby is born.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

If I'm cooking and my kitchen accidently catches fire, I will not 'deal with the consequences of cooking'. I will simply put out the fire instead.
If I'm having sex and there's an accidental pregnancy, I will not deal with the consequence by not doing anything about it. I will be a man and deal with it by having an abortion.

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Bad analogy. You're not killing anything by putting out a kitchen fire.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

...And that's precisely why we invented abortion.

And you are aware, that even if you ban abortion, that fetus will still be aborted, right?

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We invented abortion so you can be irresponsible and get away with it?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

We invented abortion so you can be irresponsible and get away with it?

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We invented abortion to enable us to enjoy sex without the possibility of offspring. Sex is something we're meant to enjoy, not something we do to reproduce ourselves. As nature failed us in that regard, we made nature better, by inventing abortion.

And as part of the womens rights movement, to avoid them being stuck as a housewife married to someone they don't want.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

We invented abortion to enable us to enjoy sex without the possibility of offspring. Sex is something we're meant to enjoy, not something we do to reproduce ourselves. As nature failed us in that regard, we made nature better, by inventing abortion.

And as part of the womens rights movement, to avoid them being stuck as a housewife married to someone they don't want.

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Actually, I'm pretty sure we invented abortion so that men could rape and seduce women without having to take responsibility for the resultant bastards. After all, the original method of abortion was a solid kick to the belly.

Yay, better than nature!:wall:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

We invented abortion to enable us to enjoy sex without the possibility of offspring. Sex is something we're meant to enjoy, not something we do to reproduce ourselves. As nature failed us in that regard, we made nature better, by inventing abortion.

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Considering that we have been practicing abortions for thousands of years, I doubt that it was invented specifically for the reason you say - or, rather, that you can verify when the first abortion was practiced and why.

Abortion should not be used as birth control just because you don't feel like having a child. Has our society really become that selfish?

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And as part of the womens rights movement, to avoid them being stuck as a housewife married to someone they don't want.

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Fortunately we have divorce, so you don't need to murder to get out of an unhappy marriage.

As well:

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Actually, I'm pretty sure we invented abortion so that men could rape and seduce women without having to take responsibility for the resultant bastards. After all, the original method of abortion was a solid kick to the belly.

Yay, better than nature!

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Actually, I'm pretty sure we invented abortion so that men could rape and seduce women without having to take responsibility for the resultant bastards. After all, the original method of abortion was a solid kick to the belly.

Yay, better than nature!:wall:

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Epic fail.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Epic fail.

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Because I'm right? Pretty sure you can find it in Plato.

Face facts, abortion is as old as pregnancy and mostly it is done for selfish reasons.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Considering that we have been practicing abortions for thousands of years, I doubt that it was invented specifically for the reason you say - or, rather, that you can verify when the first abortion was practiced and why.

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Who's talking about "the first abortion"? I'm talking about modern abortion.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Abortion should not be used as birth control just because you don't feel like having a child.

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Says who? You? Who cares about your opinion anyway? What matters is the opinion of the woman in question. And if she wants to get an abortion because she doesn't feel like getting a kid, well, that's all good and intended.

And I'm (not) sorry to say; the law isn't going to change anytime soon. And even if it does, women will still continue to take abortion. That's just not anything you or anyone else can change. Sorry.

The only thing you can do, if you want to stop abortions, is to preach the gospel of safe sex and birth control. There really isn't anything else you can do that will have any real effect.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Fortunately we have divorce, so you don't need to murder to get out of an unhappy marriage.

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No, but you need abortion to avoid being stuck with a kid instead of getting an education/working.

So, basically you're selfish and you think everyone else is worse, so abortion should be allowed because people are irresponsible?

"Who cares about your opinion anyway?"

Real mature, if you're so arrogant why should we care about yours?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

So, basically you're selfish and you think everyone else is worse, so abortion should be allowed because people are irresponsible?

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People are irresponsible and selfish because they want careless, good and pleasurable sex? Hah.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Not that I know how you have sex though, of course. You might be the selfish kind, what do I know? As for me, I find that sex is at its best when both are giving and receiving equally, being selfish in bed is counter-productive, at least if you're able to find joy in other peoples happiness.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

"Who cares about your opinion anyway?"

Real mature, if you're so arrogant why should we care about yours?

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You shouldn't. Which is why I said you shouldn't. The only opinion that matters, is the opinion of the pregnant woman. Why? Because that's the opinion that decides whether there will be an abortion or not. If she wants an abortion, there will be an abortion. No matter what you say. No matter what the law say.

All you can do, is try to make life either harder or easier for her.

And as I said, if you want to stop abortions, the only thing you can do is to preach about condoms.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Says who? You? Who cares about your opinion anyway? What matters is the opinion of the woman in question. And if she wants to get an abortion because she doesn't feel like getting a kid, well, that's all good and intended.

And I'm (not) sorry to say; the law isn't going to change anytime soon. And even if it does, women will still continue to take abortion. That's just not anything you or anyone else can change. Sorry.

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Says who? You? Who cares about your opinion anyway? What matters is the opinion of the child in question. And if he/she wants to commit suicide because he doesn't feel like existing, well, that's all fine.

Just because someone will do something regardless of it being illegal doesn't mean it should be legal. Serial killers, for example, will murder regardless of the law.

In short, I don't give a damn what the woman or the father of the child want. I care about the child, because out of those three there is only one that can't defend its own rights.

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The only thing you can do, if you want to stop abortions, is to preach the gospel of safe sex and birth control.

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We can always do both.

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No, but you need abortion to avoid being stuck with a kid instead of getting an education/working.

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Babysitting. Adoption. There are alternatives, why are you ignoring them?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

In short, I don't give a damn what the woman or the father of the child want.

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Can't you understand once and for all that if the woman wants an abortion there will be an abortion no matter the laws? Is it so hard?

One day the guy who starts all these abortion threads on forums is going to be shot. 'bout time too.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

One day the guy who starts all these abortion threads on forums is going to be shot. 'bout time too.

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That would result in a gun control thread :bigcry:

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

Can't you understand once and for all that if the woman wants an abortion there will be an abortion no matter the laws? Is it so hard?

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No, that's not true. If a woman is determined she will have one, but if you made it illegal there would be fewer overall. People would be more careful, and many people would just accept the pregnancy; have the child and then either raise it or put it up for adoption.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

One day the guy who starts all these abortion threads on forums is going to be shot. 'bout time too.

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You mean Lemur?

You always get a vote before the abortion problem even comes up, if you can't restrain yourself, you get these sorts of problems. Having sex is not a basic human right or anything like that. You know what you are getting into and if you don't it's still your own fault unless you got raped.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

No, that's not true. If a woman is determined she will have one, but if you made it illegal there would be fewer overall.

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"Fewer" means more than zero and a single woman bleeding herself to death because abortion is illegal is still too much to be accepted, my two cents.

Come on Andres, I do not recognise my words in the reading you gave them. What of the principle of charity?

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Originally Posted by Andres

Such an attitude disturbs me and I think it's in poor taste to compare a pregnancy with a kitchen accident.

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The pregnancy is not compared to a kitchen accident. What is compared is the meaning of 'facing consequences'. The comparison serves to show that 'facing consequences' does not equal passively undergoing one's fate.

Passively undergoing consequences is slavish. Active acceptance of consequences, on the contrary, is what separates the men from the boys. An abortion is not trivial. Real men do not drop of their girlfriend at the clinic in between visits to the dvd rental and the liquor store. Instead, they accept and deal with the full consequence of being an adult, and of having sex.

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1) If you want to be a man, then you'll let the mother take the decision. "It" is not in your belly, but in the belly of the woman. In the end it's her decision, not yours. No, forcing her to do what you want her to do is not = being a man, it's being selfish and cruel. If she choses to keep the child and not to give it away for adoption, then you'll be a man by either raising your child yourself or financially support the mother;

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Far from forcing anybody into anything, my very convinction that the mother alone can decide on the integrity of her body explains the fierceness of my abortion stance.

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2) Ask any couple that is pregnant for a couple of weeks to describe it. They won't call it "lumps of cells". Don't be so insensitive and don't act like there are no emotions whatsoever involved when talking about a pregnancy, being it wanted or unwanted.

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Precisley because I believe abortion is not a trivial matter, I describe it as 'being a man, and accepting the consequences'.


Human embryos are lots of things. Precious and sacred. But not equipped with a soul. On this last bit, opinion differs. Those who believe a fertilized egg is endowed with a soul, will have an absolute stance on abortion. Those who don't, must regard abortion in light of many conflicting interests.

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

"Fewer" means more than zero and a single woman bleeding herself to death because abortion is illegal is still too much to be accepted, my two cents.

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On the other hand, you have the healthy and viable, or near viable, feoti being aborted at far too high a rate as well.

Whatever you do people will do stupid things (and back-alley abortions are idiotic), either way you get tragedy. The question is whether you try to reduce it to the absolute minimum possible, knowing that will never be zero, or you can make the tragedy socially acceptable and legally licensed.

Currently we allow, under law, the snuffing out of what are quite clealy human lives, not cancers in a woman's womb.

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Originally Posted by Louis

Human embryos are lots of things. Precious and sacred. But not equipped with a soul. On this last bit, opinion differs. Those who believe a fertilized egg is endowed with a soul, will have an absolute stance on abortion. Those who don't, must regard abortion in light of many conflicting interests.

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I understand this position, and respect it.

But I think it is an unnecessary stumbling block. I do not (and can not) understand the mind of god. I do not know if god exists. I do not know when a soul is attached to a body. I do not knows if "soul" exists.

However, I must decide when "Life" exists, because I am a member of society, and a sworn officer of a government. The first duty of Society and Government is the protection of the Life of its members, then the Liberty of its members.

Thirty years ago, I decided defendable "Life" (id est: life I would have a duty to protect and defend) began when breathing started. And ended when breathing stopped. Then ironically-named LIFE magazine published those famous in-utero photos of embryos and fetuses, and "preemies" started surviving their early births more often, and artificial breathing machines prolonged people's lives, and some of them survived formerly-death-dealing trauma...

The "when defendable Life began and ended" decision got blurred. But my obligation to defend life didn't go away. Medico's started defining death as a permanent cessation of brain activity (assuming a heart-lung machine had already taken over breathing and heartbeat). If true, then the opposite end of the spectrum - the beginning of life, would be when brain activity measureably begins. Somewhere around week 14 after conception, the brain starts sparking, measureably, according to my reading.

So: that's the line-in-the-sand for me - the female "owns" that lump-of-cells for 90 days, to do with whatever she decides is right. After that, society has an obligation, a duty, to protect and defend that once-a-lump-of-cells-now-a-citizen-with-a-right-to-life. A right equal to the female's same right.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

No, that's not true. If a woman is determined she will have one, but if you made it illegal there would be fewer overall. People would be more careful, and many people would just accept the pregnancy; have the child and then either raise it or put it up for adoption.

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That is debatable, the abortion rates are lower now in Sweden than it was when abortion was illegal.

You never considered that the stance for most abortinists are adhering to is to reduce it to the absolute minimum possible, knowing that will never be zero and at the same make the tragedy socially acceptable and legally licensed?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

No, that's not true. If a woman is determined she will have one, but if you made it illegal there would be fewer overall. People would be more careful, and many people would just accept the pregnancy; have the child and then either raise it or put it up for adoption.

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Just like there are no Irish women who get an abortion, right? And people call socialism a utopia...

There are no official number on how many abortions performed in Ireland each year, being illegal and all, but I've seen estimates vary between 6000-10.000 per year, on a total population of a little under 6 million. The number of abortions in Norway last year was 13.000-ish on a population of just under 5 million. So... Banning abortion seems to cut the number of abortions roughly in half.

Banning abortion doesn't stop people having them. Especially not in the US, with a large pro-abortion group. Abortion is as simple as taking a pill these days, and that pill won't be hard to distribute illegally. And it's not very hard to take a trip to mexico or canada either, countries who will be more than willing to perform abortions on american women.

Thinking that you have a choice between having abortions or not is an illusion. The only choice you have, is between making abortions harder or easier, and making it available to the entire population, or just the ones with money.

As I've said, if you want abortions to stop, the only thing you can do is spread condoms, birth control pills and morning after pills. Anything else is utopia.

Most countries that ban abortion are also behind on sex education, so the figures are not that reliable. For obvious reasons the two go together.

Now, sex education is important but you, like the UK government, seem to focus only on contraception. This has ben shown not to work in the UK, at all. It makes sense really, a spotty sixteen yea-old kid is most likely to sex the first time drunk, so he won't use a condom. He probably doesn't know how either, because all he did in sex-ed was giggle.

Thing is, you don't have to have sex when you meet someone you like. Over here promiscuity, casual sex etc. are linked to alchohol comsumption among teenagers. They're stupid, they get pregnant. It's then a question of how stupid they are as to whether they work out they actually are pregnant or not.

The problem in the UK is people just chuck condoms at kids, and everyone else. You are right that banning abortion will not stop all abortions, however the current threshold is 24 weeks, which is far too high, it should drop by six weeks at least.

Currently the attitude to abortion in the UK is becoming increasingly casual, this is not a good thing.

In an ideal world, there would be no unwanted or difficult pregnancies, no unhealthy children and no abortion. We will almost certainly never achieve that, but it's what I'll always aim for.

Oh, and for the record the Morning-After Pill basically induces a miscarriage, it's not actually contraception.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Somewhere around week 14 after conception, the brain starts sparking, measureably, according to my reading.

So: that's the line-in-the-sand for me - the female "owns" that lump-of-cells for 90 days, to do with whatever she decides is right. After that, society has an obligation, a duty, to protect and defend that once-a-lump-of-cells-now-a-citizen-with-a-right-to-life.

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Sounds pretty reasonable to me. And I am very sorry to hear that Adrian intends to kill me. It's been a good life, though, and I've enjoyed my time on this Earth, so I die with no regrets.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. And I am very sorry to hear that Adrian intends to kill me. It's been a good life, though, and I've enjoyed my time on this Earth, so I die with no regrets.

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In fairness, he said "shot", not killed. Perhaps he intends to offer you an ounce of fine Dutch liquor.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Most countries that ban abortion are also behind on sex education, so the figures are not that reliable. For obvious reasons the two go together.

Now, sex education is important but you, like the UK government, seem to focus only on contraception. This has ben shown not to work in the UK, at all. It makes sense really, a spotty sixteen yea-old kid is most likely to sex the first time drunk, so he won't use a condom. He probably doesn't know how either, because all he did in sex-ed was giggle.

Thing is, you don't have to have sex when you meet someone you like. Over here promiscuity, casual sex etc. are linked to alchohol comsumption among teenagers. They're stupid, they get pregnant. It's then a question of how stupid they are as to whether they work out they actually are pregnant or not.

The problem in the UK is people just chuck condoms at kids, and everyone else. You are right that banning abortion will not stop all abortions, however the current threshold is 24 weeks, which is far too high, it should drop by six weeks at least.

Currently the attitude to abortion in the UK is becoming increasingly casual, this is not a good thing.

In an ideal world, there would be no unwanted or difficult pregnancies, no unhealthy children and no abortion. We will almost certainly never achieve that, but it's what I'll always aim for.

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This is a myth. Teenagers don't account for the highest number of abortions, older women do. linky.

As you can see, there are almost twice as many abortions performed by women aged 20-24 than there are for women age 15 to 19(27,4 to 15,4 per 1000 women). Women in their late twenties also get more abortions, while women in their early thirties get about the same number of abortions as teenagers.

For the record, I was drunk as hell(who isn't?) my first time. And I used a condom. Actually would've lost my virginity a couple of months earlier(also drunk), but I didn't have sex because I didn't have a condom at the time(I've had 3 condoms in my wallet at all times since then...).

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Most countries that ban abortion are also behind on sex education, so the figures are not that reliable. For obvious reasons the two go together.

Now, sex education is important but you, like the UK government, seem to focus only on contraception. This has ben shown not to work in the UK, at all. It makes sense really, a spotty sixteen yea-old kid is most likely to sex the first time drunk, so he won't use a condom. He probably doesn't know how either, because all he did in sex-ed was giggle.

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I was always under the impression that sex-ed was first rate in the UK. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

And I am very sorry to hear that Adrian intends to kill me. It's been a good life, though, and I've enjoyed my time on this Earth, so I die with no regrets.

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To be honest, I meant to say that since all Internet abortion threads across the world look the same they are probably all started by one and the same guy as well. Then I remembered Charles de Gaulle's famous words: 'One does not shoot a lemur.' Let it be known that Adrian II respects his classics.

Hmmmmmm...

Ok, so I will share this with you other orghas.

1. I had a polish girlfriend some years ago... Don't generalize, she came from a wealthy family and was in Sweden to study at our finest school. Anyway, she got pregnant... She did not want the child, as she was in the middle of her studies and had no way to support the child... I... Well, what I thought isn't important, it's her desicion.

Anyway, she told me she "knew this doctor in Poland"... I then told her she could have an abortion in Sweden in a regular hospital,

POINT BEING: This abortion was gonna happen one way or the other. I VERY MUCH prefer it to happen in a hospital than on some kitchen table.


2. I had sex with an Austrian girl, and she got pregnant (condom burts or something). She did not want the kid with me, I did not want the kid with her.

She had an abortion without my knowledge... I didn't even know she had been pregnant till after.

I must say, I much prefered the abortion choice...

If abortion was out of the question there would be 2 very unhappy mothers and one father who couldnt pay enough to pay for them.

As it is, we have 3 people who have happy families, or are about to.

As a sidenote: My GF just got pregnant (love of my life contrary to the others).

I know some people will see this as 2 murders having been comited... I see it as 3, or 6 people having a happy life. 9 if you count the kids.

Oh, and also, I dont really see abortion as murder. Much the same way as I dont see having a hamburger as murder, or wanking as murder, or chopping down a tree as murder.

those against abortions should realise that a tree has more spiritual life than a couple of weeks old fetus. Do you cry everytime you see a piece of paper?

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

those against abortions should realise that a tree has more spiritual life than a couple of weeks old fetus. Do you cry everytime you see a piece of paper?

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Gun meet foot...enjoy.