Successor game rules, draft one.

From what I know of French history, dueling per se didn't appear until the 16th century when swords got lighter.

What we had before was the "Jugement de Dieu" (God' s Judgment) in which the aggrieved party met its opponent on the field to settle their dispute before God, the will of God being expressed by the gift of victory.

Most times, this judgment was first conducted on horseback with lances and if necessary was prolonged with whatever weapons were chosen, axes, swords, maces...

I fully agree that implementing such a system could be a great addition to the game.

All right, here's what I got for ancillaries. This analysis doesn't include the ancillaries effects on the four basic stats or valor, if those stats end up mattering. I didn't include unique ancillaries like religious artifacts for historical persona, they can be dealt with as they occur. Since there's a limit to how many ancillaries a character can have, unlike with traits, it may be practicle to factor in them all. If nothing else, this could serve as an RP guide for people who want to write stories about the run-up to a duel.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• academic_advisor - Unless he can find you some 'fighting manuals', he won't be very useful.
• actor - Could help you get the audience on your side, otherwise useless.
• adultress/foreign/she-male - Could affect the audience, but that's it.
• alchemist - HP bonus is definitely applicable, and if we allow dueling with pistols later he'd help you get high-quality weapons.
• apothecary - HP bonus is helpful, perhaps he gives a stat boost via ye olde energy drink?
• architect - Only way this would help is if you were fighting in an arena built by this guy, and he included
  trap doors and giant blades coming from the ceiling.
• armour_custom - This is probably the most obviously beneficial ancillary in the game. Armor is important, right?
• armour_ornate - Worse than your average noble's armor, but could help get the crowd on your side. I suppose you could choose not to wear it, but then you can't choose in a real battle.
• artist - I can't see this guy being helpful at all during the battle, but if he immortalizes your victory afterward that could increase certain rewards.
• astrologer - I suppose if you believe this guy, his predictions could affect your performance.
• bard - This guy would be a real crowd pleaser, if that matters. And like the artist, it's always nice to have someone immortalizing your past victories, right?
• biographer - Again, this guy could only be helpful after the duel; always will to write of battle in the best terms.
• black_stallion - Helpful in a joust, useless outside of one.
• bodyguard - A sparing partner for better practice, or perhaps an above average champion should you choose to decline.
• brilliant_inventor - Conceivably he could invent some fancy do-hicky to surprise your opponent with.
• caravan_driver - He could bring you something useful from a distant land, if that isn't streching things.
• crooked_judge - He could do something cheesy like have your opponent arrested, but I doubt that'd be allowed in the rules.
• doctor - Having the best available personnel to give you care and a good once-over after a duel has obvious benefits, what those are depends on the rules.
• drillmaster - Undergoing an intense physical regimen is a good way to train body and mind to operate calmly and effectively in a fight.
• evil_mother-in-law - Having her in the audience, cheering on your opponent, could either be a real downer or a keen way to focus your anger.
• foodtaster - If your opponent tries to poison you before the duel, this guy could be really helpful.
• fool_brilliant - Perhaps this idiot savant has noticed something about your opponent in a moment of clarity...
• fool_usual - A warm-up act for the audience, if nothing else.
• harsh_judge - Probably not the best time to remind the audience who this man's patron is...
• herald - The closest thing you can get to entering the field of honor with your own theme song playing.
• intrepid_explorer - If you chose to join this man on his expeditions through rediculous terrain, it is child's play to move deftly through a flat arena.
• knight_beserker - A good champion to fight in your stead, and sparring with this man will definitely help you defend against your opponent's attacks.
• knight_chivalrous - Another fine champion, and a good sparing partner who will get you used to fighting someone *else* who's chivalrous.
• knight_dread - Same as a knight_chivalrous, just with dread instead of chivalry.
• knight_santiago - Again, a fine champion to fight in your stead and a good sparing partner. Perhaps his dedication to the Lord will inspire you as well?
• knight_stjohn - See 'knight_santiago'
• knight_templar - See 'knight_santiago'
• knight_teutonic - See 'knight_santiago'
• lancebearer - If you're jousting, it's good to know someone who can get the best lances.
• librarian - Perhaps some ancient sword treatise could ensure your victory...
• magician - The audience is sure to support a noble who employs a miracle worker...
• magician_pagan - But not someone who defies the word of god.
• master_mason - See 'architect'
• master_of_archers - Unless duels involve bows or crossbows in some way, this guy isn't going to be very useful.
• master_of_assassins - This is someone who can definitely teach you how to end a fight quickly. Perhaps he knows a way to disable someone without killing them?
• master_of_horse - A good horse is of great benefit in a joust, but only their.
• master_smith - Making sure your weapons and armor are of good quality is quite a boon.
• mathematician - If only he could calculate kinetic energy and the pressure at the tip of an opponent's weapon fast enough to be of help..
• mentor - Old men with experience can have all kinds of useful information.
• mercenary_captain - This guy can set you up with some sparing partners, and even find a top-class warrior to fight in your stead.
• military_engineer - Unfortunately, this guy's engineering is useless for personal combat.
• money_counter - Unless you need help getting enough money for arms and armor, this guy can sit on the sidelines.
• musician - A good choice to warm up the audience. And people will remember who his employer is!
• nosy_mother - This is not a distraction you want when you're preparing for a fight, but at least she stands between you and your enemies.
• ordinance_master - If only, if only...
• overseer - Good management can't help you in the heat of battle, not unless you're in need of a quick mob.
• pet_guarddog - Restrained or not, if he sees your opponent going for the coup-de-grace...
• physician - See 'doctor'
• priest - Having a man of god on hand can help your peace of mind. At least he can quickly administer last rites.
• quartermaster - Perhaps this man can quickly acquire high-quality arms & armor for you?
• royal_escort - Stand in, sparing partner and someone you can keep an eye out for fishy business. It's good to royalty.
• runner - Athletics are a good way to prepare for battle.
• scout - A man who's used to scouting out the enemy in preperation for battle, where ever the field lies.
• scribe_ancillary - Not much use for writing in battle, unless he can find you a book on techniques.
• shieldbearer - When your shield stand between you and the enemy's blade, you'll be glad you had a man who could get you the best shield.
• siege_engineer - See 'ordinance_master'
• soothsayer - See 'astrologer'
• spymaster - The perfect choice to find your opponent's weaknesses, as well as safeguard your own.
• swift_steed - A good horse is invaluable in a joust.
• swordbearer - The more swords you have access to, the more you can have faith in the best of the bunch.
• tax_farmer - If you need money for bribes, this guy's your man. But would you?
• torturer - No matter how badly you beat your opponent, you can't sick this guy on him. Still, he can teach you a few tricks on how to cause pain your opponent can only imagine.
• treasurer - See 'tax_farmer'
• trusty_steed - To you and your horse, a joust is just another battle.
• tutor - See 'mentor'
• veteran_warrior - Perhaps the best champion and sparring partner a nobleman could ask for.

I was actually thinking of narrowing down the list, and basing it off of TC's Chariot Race Rules, but allow the players to influence it in a RPS fashion, and then rolling dice based upon valor.

Thus, in the following fight, we have two knights

Knight Cecil has 2 HP, as dictated by his avatar, and 6 valor (3 silver chevrons), which would give him 3 dice per phase.

Knight Flax has 4 HP, as dictated by his avatar, Fine Armor, and Hypochondria, with 4 valor (1 silver chevron), giving him 2 dice per phase.

Knight Cecil has the trait "Scout", giving him the opening move - he chooses attack, and his stance type - High, Mid, and Low - Mid.

Knight Flax chooses his stance type - High, Mid, Low - Low

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Low>High>Mid>Low for reference, with the superior stance gaining a +1 bonus to all it's rolls

Knight Cecil rolls 4, 1, and 5, and each die gets +1 due to his superior stance, giving him rolls of 5, 2, and 6

Knight Flax rolls a 4 and 3 - not enough to beat either of Knight Cecil scores. Knight Flax is soundly beaten this phase, losing 2 HP.

Knight Flax then goes on attack, rolling 4 and 3 yet again, this time with Mid as his stance.

Knight Cecil defends with 4, 6 and 1 with his stance set to High, giving him advantage, with 5, 7, and 2.

Knight Flax is unable to damage Cecil, who is fighting superbly and easily countering everything being thrown at him.

Knight Cecil then launches into his own string of attacks - 5, 4, and 5 - with his stance set to Mid.

Knight Flax flounders under the withering series of blows - rolling 1 and 1 - and even screws up his stance, having it set at Low, giving Cecil +1 to his attack (6, 5 and 6). Knight Flax loses 2 HP, is on his knees, and is at the mercy of Knight Cecil's masterful handling of combat.

Okay, yes, a bit cheesy, BUT, this was all decided by random.org, so blame chaos if you so wish. This is the very basic setup, and the only current changes I am thinking of is "expanding" upon the idea of chivalry and knavery actions, and having every 3 chevrons add another die and hitpoint.

Yes so why don't we just play AD&D on line?

You guy's are going rule mad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Yes so why don't we just play AD&D on line?

You guy's are going rule mad.

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Thats where I thought this dueling thing was going, although in a far and away simpler format. Suddenly I am tempted to duel everyone from KotR against each other :laugh4:

It's fun though, and it will most likely happen rarely. Most extremely simple systems have to much random chance in them.

And this will mostly be a write up of how everything plays out, with me or whomever as arbiter.

You know what, I'm going to go do that - pit the old electors against their hated rivals and see who wins :laugh4:. It's just to tempting to pass up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Yes so why don't we just play AD&D on line?

You guy's are going rule mad.

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I thought you would be interested in the idea of rules for duels, as it was the memory of Arnold impotently pursuing Jan that made me suggest the idea. I agree there is a risk of over-complexity, although with duels requiring mutual consent, it will be easy for a player to opt out if the rules just do their head in. Let's ponder on it for a few days and then when we have one or two specific proposals, we can decide.

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Most times, this judgment was first conducted on horseback with lances and if necessary was prolonged with whatever weapons were chosen, axes, swords, maces...

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That's exactly what I had in mind - I like grounding rules in history, otherwise everything risks seeming arbitrary. My thinking is that the opening jousting would be relatively bloodless and with few modifiers (they would primarily relate to experience, age and any traits relating specificallly to riding). The fun - risk of death and rules compexity - would really start if it got to combat on foot, although I take AGs point that we don't want to go overboard.

I like TCs and YLCs ideas. I'll do some research on the history and possible rules, then come back in a couple of days with a proposed system that steals draws from them. Once we have exhausted discussion, we can put any specific proposals to Zim for approval and if they receive it, organise a poll if there is a choice or disagreement among other players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

I thought you would be interested in the idea of rules for duels, as it was the memory of Arnold impotently pursuing Jan that made me suggest the idea. I agree there is a risk of over-complexity, although with duels requiring mutual consent, it will be easy for a player to opt out if the rules just do their head in. Let's ponder on it for a few days and then when we have one or two specific proposals, we can decide.

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One of the biggest problems in LotR was a sort of rule overload in which the complexity and sheer volume of things we had to familiar with was bogging down the game. Midway through the PBM, TinCow called a time-out and a group of us worked together to streamline things. Since then, there's been a kind of spoken and unspoken consent to make it as KISS as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

One of the biggest problems in LotR was a sort of rule overload in which the complexity and sheer volume of things we had to familiar with was bogging down the game. Midway through the PBM, TinCow called a time-out and a group of us worked together to streamline things. Since then, there's been a kind of spoken and unspoken consent to make it as KISS as possible.

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I'm hoping that I can do a KISS for the participants, and handle the rules complexity on my side - this way, the participants would only need to play a rock paper scissors game, and try to focus on the psychology of their opponent. It's proven that you can consistently win at RPS, through strategy :laugh4:

If any duel system is picked, I'd say the easiest thing to do would be to place it outside the official KOTF rules, rather like TinCow's race in the Hippodrome. A "tournament field" thread could be created to act as both an IC thread and site for duels. Anyone wanting to fight one would then have to agree to go by the ruleset presented, or do it all as a story or whatever they prefer. I could implement any in-game changes they agreed on (say one character died, or they were betting a province or something).

That way the main rules don't get cluttered up, and if certain things worked or didn't it would be much easier play around with the duel rules.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

If any duel system is picked, I'd say the easiest thing to do would be to place it outside the official KOTF rules, rather like TinCow's race in the Hippodrome. A "tournament field" thread could be created to act as both an IC thread and site for duels. Anyone wanting to fight one would then have to agree to go by the ruleset presented, or do it all as a story or whatever they prefer. I could implement any in-game changes they agreed on (say one character died, or they were betting a province or something).

That way the main rules don't get cluttered up, and if certain things worked or didn't it would be much easier play around with the duel rules.

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I'm already adapting my rules to take this into account, which will centralize each characters stats for the duel system and will allow fair creation of Champions. We could go one step further and create full tourneys with the system, both for mounted and unmounted combat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zim

If any duel system is picked, I'd say the easiest thing to do would be to place it outside the official KOTF rules, rather like TinCow's race in the Hippodrome. ...

That way the main rules don't get cluttered up,...

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In that spirit, it's probably best to split off discussion of tournament rules into a separate thread, so it does not crowd out or over-shadow consideratin of the core game rules. I'll start a new thread for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

One of the biggest problems in LotR was a sort of rule overload in which the complexity and sheer volume of things we had to familiar with was bogging down the game. Midway through the PBM, TinCow called a time-out and a group of us worked together to streamline things. Since then, there's been a kind of spoken and unspoken consent to make it as KISS as possible.

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QFT, though I don't generally think this applies to ancillary rule systems like the chariot races. The biggest problem I see with the duels is not that they will be too complex (only one person really needs to understand them anyway) but that they won't be used. I originally imagined the chariot races as a way for people to gamble their possessions with others and to resolve disputes by seeing whose team won a race. It was never used for that.

If there is a serious risk of death from dueling, I doubt we'll see it used too much. I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to risk my avatar's life on a roll of the dice. If I'm going to get myself killed, it will be in a PvP battle. This is the reason I suggest drinking challenges instead.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

QFT, though I don't generally think this applies to ancillary rule systems like the chariot races. The biggest problem I see with the duels is not that they will be too complex (only one person really needs to understand them anyway) but that they won't be used. I originally imagined the chariot races as a way for people to gamble their possessions with others and to resolve disputes by seeing whose team won a race. It was never used for that.

If there is a serious risk of death from dueling, I doubt we'll see it used too much. I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to risk my avatar's life on a roll of the dice. If I'm going to get myself killed, it will be in a PvP battle. This is the reason I suggest drinking challenges instead.

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Oh, I see how it is - exclude those who can't or won't drink. And what if I dislike the alcohol in question?How fair of you :laugh4:

The new thread is covering this gents.

And I make the same issue TC just did. It's a nice threat to have, which maybe all it needs to be as if someone in the Diet session has enough steam up he can use it as a leverage point.

Can you imagine Arnold with good duelling characteristics in a Diet session....sweat lord, it could have been a blood bath...literally.

Having said that...it's a hell of a risk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

I originally imagined the chariot races as a way for people to gamble their possessions with others and to resolve disputes by seeing whose team won a race. It was never used for that.

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I hate to contradict but I can remember at least one instance of this : settling the dispute between Methodios (myself) and Nikiphoros (Warmaster Horus) over Scopia of all provinces (:laugh4:).

And I must admit that I rather like the idea of non-lethal (but shameful, for the loser) "trial by god".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

I hate to contradict but I can remember at least one instance of this : settling the dispute between Methodios (myself) and Nikiphoros (Warmaster Horus) over Scopia of all provinces (:laugh4:).

And I must admit that I rather like the idea of non-lethal (but shameful, for the loser) "trial by god".

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So you like my rule set? Anything you'd like to see, amended, added, removed? Posted in the correct thread of course

See my post in said thread :yes:

we can always add that in later...

let's just get the game main rules out of the way so we can get started ;p

I am about done with my proposal on a system for duelling - we can see if rival systems are proposed and decide on how to go forward on the duelling "mini-game" in due course. It looks like we have some time before all the players have Kingdoms, so it might be good to review the core rules, which are much more important than any mini-game. I was struck by what TC said recently in another thread:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

... how I feel about LotR in general: many improvements that made the game better, but lots of flaws with the system that prevented it from really coming into its own. Fortunately, a lot of those problems were ironed out along the way so we don't have to deal with them anymore. The 'Royal Army' system that was pioneered in KotR has transformed into an excellent and very efficient system for private ownership of military units, as have the rules for IC legislation and OOC rule changes. The built-in ability for the GM to launch 'events' at will also helps a great deal. However, the House structure and the PvP mechanics were never properly polished up during the game and we're still trying to resolve the problems with them now.

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Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I wonder if this implies we need to do more work on House structure and PvP mechanics? Reading this thread, I can see the point about the latter, at least. Do other people think there are problems? Are there solutions? I'm coming late to this discussion and without the benefit of following LotR, so forgive me if I am asking to go over old ground.


EDIT:


On other matters, a few minor points on the rules:

3 (d) Wills and inheritance: insert Wills must be deposited with Zim before the character's death to be considered valid.
Ducal succession was an issue in KotR and personally I don't like players making key decisions after their avatar is dead. Do we explicitly allow Dukes to resign? If not, I think we should.

3 )(f) Rules disputes : maybe state that Zim's ruling can over turn that of the King/Prince/Chancellor? this is to avoid a player who really abuses this power in an OOC way. Also, I am leery of giving the Chancellor sole power over the disputes involving the King/Prince. Wouldn't a council of Dukes plus the Chancellor be better?

3(f) Emergency sessions I am leery about allowing Dukes to call these. They really slow the game down and I would rather not let one partisan player do this. Maybe require a second Duke to agree? Two Dukes shouting stop sounds like an emergency - one not so much.

On impeachment, presumably it requires an emergency session, if it is to be done out of full session?

5 (b) army ownership: what's a garrison? any pre-existing stack in a settlement? or just free upkeep militia?

French terminology - now we have selected our faction, does that mean we should change some terminology to fit the context? e.g. do we need titles for some of our concepts, e.g. should it be Senate or Parliament or Assembly or what? What are our 4 Houses going to be called and which provinces will be in which? My preference is for something regional, roughly corresponding to east, west, north, south, but I don't know the details.

The problems with Houses in LotR was that they were so fluid that they didn't have much meaning, pretty much the opposite of what the problem was in KotR. Since the system in KotR seemed to work a bit better, the current version of KotF's rules are mixed between the two, but leaning towards KotR. I think we're satisfied with that, right?

As for PVP, the issue there was that in LotR most of the civil wars ocurred across distances so great that you could spend a whole Chancellor's term marching without getting to your enemy. That hasn't been fully resolved, although I think part of the problem was that we never got around to building paved roads through Anatolia. Also, we used Stainless Steel for LotR, which might have different movement rates than LTC. Perhaps LTC will be better?

In any case, my prefered solution is this: At the beginning of a civil war, either the combatants or all players will vote on the movement system to use that's most suitable for the war to be fought. The options are those Tincow outlines here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by TinCow

1) Basic LotR system, as the rules are currently written. Players move normally on the map and battles occur when they encounter one another. This allows total freedom of movement in the game and is thus the most strategic, but as we saw in LotR in-game movement speeds often result in 'phony' wars with no fighting whatsoever. This system thus makes civil war almost completely harmless to an enemy whose lands are not near your own, which reduces their impact and makes them less serious. This system has the advantage of allowing gameplay to continue relatively normally while the maneuvering is in progress.

2) Phased Movement system, as was used in the LotR War of the Four Basileis. Essentially, players submit movement orders by PM to the GM or battle Umpire, who then makes all the moves simultaneously, using the console to allow multiple movement phases without advancing the game year. Only combatants submit orders, with all neutrals remaining frozen while the war takes place. This is faster than (1), more likely to result in battles due to the ability to allow increased movement ranges, and still allows moderate strategic movements, such as occupying bridges or defending certain settlements. However, players can still run away from one another or otherwise refrain from fighting if they want to. This also makes everyone else sit around and twiddle their fingers waiting for it all to be over, which can be a pain if it lasts a long time.

3) Phased Movement system, as was used in the KotR Cataclysm. Pretty much the same as (2), but everyone submits movement orders, even neutrals, and the game year keeps advancing. Has the advantages of (2) without making people twiddle their fingers. However, it's a lot more work for the GM/Umpire and it risks exploitation if the neutrals use this period of time to beat up the AI with their bonus movement.

4) MTW/Risk-style system. Similar to phased movement, but players submit orders to move based on province proximity. For instance, any player can move their army up to two (or one, or three, or whatever) consecutive provinces per phased turn. When players enter a province with a hostile force, a battle occurs. Battles are treated as they are in MTW, namely that if one army is moving into a province with the enemy, but the enemy was stationary that turn, the moving army is the attacker and the stationary army is the defender and may get a terrain/settlement advantage. If both armies were moving, it is a meeting engagement and occurs on an open battlefield without one side getting a terrain advantage. This is even faster than (2) and (3) and very likely to result in a battle, since people don't need to move close to each other in a province, they just need to be in the same province. However, this doesn't allow for the same level of strategic detail as (1) through (3) and generally limits people to deciding whether to attack or defend. This also will make the neutrals sit around watching for a while, though for not as long as (2).

5) Instant battle system. As soon as a civil war is declared, all players declare who they support or whether they are neutral. When this is completed, a battle instantly occurs with all participants on both sides showing up. When the battle is over, the war is over. This is the fastest method possible and will ALWAYS result in a battle, making civil wars very serious things. However, it allows for pretty much no pre-battle strategy beyond politically recruiting allies.

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To use KotR as an example, this would allow us to use a different rule set for a war between Austria and Franconia than Austria and Outremer, where distance and time could really harm things. I think deciding on a system on a case-by-case basis really helps keep things flowing well.

Thanks, Cecil. I agree we have probably solved most of these issues. I am still wondering about unit recruitment in a civil war though. This goes back to my view about tabletop battles which is that it is the pre-battle army strength rather than the battle itself which determines the outcome. What we seem to have now is that the Chancellor can decide to pick which priority recruitments to make - so having the Chancellor on your side in the war seems crucial. I might be ok with that [1] but I just want to check that is intended.

[1] It seems to imply rebels will need to have mustered their men before declaring war, or planted a compliant chancellor. I guess the rule requiring all prioritised units to be recruited before any others is some constraint on the chancellor - as is the threat of impeachment - but still. One reason why it may be ok is just the logistical hassle of decentralising unit recruitment and the associated economic model. We trialled such a thing in a co-operative concept before Kotr, but it was just spreadsheet hell.

On choosing the system for resolving PvP strategic movement, my preference would be for Zim to make the call rather than have a vote. Particular systems are likely to favour one side more than another (e.g. the strong initial faction will want a quick resolution, the underdogs may want a guerilla war). We can't expect players to vote impartially in that situation. I would rather Zim decide what is best from the point of view of a realistic simulation and from the point of view of keeping the game moving in a fun manner. He could change things mid-stream too, if the guerilla was just stalling and it was a war of words etc.

I would like to comment on the issue of PvP, more specifically the battles:

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Originally Posted by Zim

(d) - PvP Battles: Whenever two hostile armies enter adjacent squares, a PvP Battle will occur, even if the armies have movement points remaining. If both players agree, the battle will be fought via multiplayer, with Zim or anyone he chooses acting as umpire. The umpire will determine the map and the precise composition of the armies. If the battle is not fought via multiplayer, there will be a 24 hour voting period to determine how the battle will be fought. The voting options will be (a) Tabletop Battle (b) Abbreviated Tabletop Battle and (c) AI Battle. All players may vote, even those not involved in the battle, all votes will be unweighted, and the option that receives the most votes will be chosen. Tabletop Battles will be in the style of the The Battle of the Iron Bridge and the Battle of the Basileis and will be umpired by Zim or anyone he chooses. Abbreviated Tabletop Battles will be identical to a Tabletop Battle, but will be 1 turn in length. Players will determine their starting positions and outline a general strategy for the battle. The umpire will then play out the battle and determine the victor. The umpire may allow a maximum of 1 or 2 additional turns beyond the starting turn if they so choose. The Abbreviated Tabletop Battle will be run by Zim or anyone he chooses. AI Battles will be custom battles in the TW engine in which the AI will control all units on both sides. AI battles will be umpired by Zim or anyone he choose. The umpire will determine all settings to be used in the battle, including the map and the precise composition of the armies. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire must attempt to have the battle replicate the in-game state of affairs to the best of his ability. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire will determine the results, including, but not limited to, units to be disbanded as casualties, avatars to be killed off as casualties, and changes in the control of provinces. Console commands may be used to implement the results.

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I think that we may have to rework how we choose exactly what style of battle we fight. In LotR, I count a total of six battles being fought, if we divide the Battle of the Basileis into three separate engagements. Four were tabletop and two were MP. As the umpire for all of the tabletop battles (even though I had help thanks to Zim and TinCow), I was pretty blown out by the end of the PBM.

Now, we do have, by my reckoning, four players that have experience umpiring battles: Myself, Zim, TinCow, and econ21. That *should* be enough to cover everything. But in the case of, say, a Franconia/Austria Civil War that doesn't utilize the "everybody load up and throw it in" mechanic, there might be a string of battles at once. If they're all tabletop, that could seriously slow things down and kill the umpires. Naturally, every player is going to want to fight the full-on tabletop, but sometimes I think that shouldn't happen.

Instead, I propose the following:

If the engagement isn't MP, then there is a vote to determine the exact style, as before. However, it is divided three ways:

- 33% of the vote goes to the participants.
- 33% goes to the entire player base.
- 33% goes to the GM.

In my opinion, this would give a fairer representation to the relative weight of the player base and perhaps work to streamline things.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I am still wondering about unit recruitment in a civil war though. This goes back to my view about tabletop battles which is that it is the pre-battle army strength rather than the battle itself which determines the outcome. What we seem to have now is that the Chancellor can decide to pick which priority recruitments to make - so having the Chancellor on your side in the war seems crucial. I might be ok with that [1] but I just want to check that is intended.

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Yes, having the Chancellor be your ally is crucial during a Civil War and it was intentionally created that way. The way I saw it in LotR (and still do) a properly prepared civil war involves political campaigning to put yourself into a position where you can then seize whatever you want with military power. For the same reason, it is also important to stockpile military units when you can get them so that if an enemy comes after you while a hostile Chancellor is in power, you can still survive. I like this kind of system very much, because it forces people to use politics (and thus IC moves) in order to win civil wars. This seems realistic to me and focuses the game towards domestic interaction rather than attacking the AI.

The end of LotR was a direct result of such a situation. Zim was a heavy backer of Ignoramus, who was the son of the previous Emperor, but had not inherited the throne due to game mechanics. Zim and Ignoramus made sure that Zim got elected as Chancellor, and then Zim used his time to build up massive armies for Ignoramus. When the final war started, this resulted in Ignoramus having such a large force at his disposal that he was essentially invulnerable unless all his foes united against him from the start. They did not do this, and thus Ignoramus was the victor... all because he made sure to get an ally elected as Chancellor and that Chancellor specifically used his powers to boost Ignoramus.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Yes, having the Chancellor be your ally is crucial during a Civil War and it was intentionally created that way. ...

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Ok, that's very illuminating. I am a little worried that creating a very powerful strategy like this might distort the game. Now people have seen Ignoramus do it so successfully, there may be a scramble to repeat the trick and make civil war the focus of the game from the outset. I'm not sure that is wise given the problems we have implementing PvP mechanics (not to mention my personal tilt towards cooperative rather than competitive play). I wonder if we should muddy the waters a bit so that "get a Chancellor, then declare civil war" is not guaranteed to be so effective next time? One possibility would be to introduce some kind of "loyalty test" mechanic with units - so that some units may defect or desert from an army. The likelihood of such attrition could depend on the political balance of power. That might make the Chancellor's mega army less likely to conquer all, if he lacks political support.

I guess one basic question to ask is why do we want civil wars in the game? We did not allow for them in the WotS and KotR rules and only really used them to make the bring the game to a conclusion. A good reason for allowing for civil wars is to deal with massive divisive conflicts that get so heated, they can only be resolved by war. The English Civil War and the American Civil War are examples of such things. An additional reason would be for allowing for more minor disputes etc between nobles, but I am not convinced that is the way to go (hence the duelling idea). If we just want civil wars to be "big", we could require some political prerequisite - e.g. only Dukes or higher can declare civil war. That also might be a good way of allowing for some but not all lesser disputes. Personally, I think the competition between players is more fun when done via politicking and jockeying for influence rather than engaging in open warfare.

While talking of declaring war, what are the rules about declaring wars on (edit) civil foreign powers? I see the King can do - is it only the King? Or can the Senate vote for a war?

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Originally Posted by econ21

Ok, that's very illuminating. I am a little worried that creating a very powerful strategy like this might distort the game. Now people have seen Ignoramus do it so successfully, there may be a scramble to repeat the trick and make civil war the focus of the game from the outset. I'm not sure that is wise given the problems we have implementing PvP mechanics (not to mention my personal tilt towards cooperative rather than competitive play). I wonder if we should muddy the waters a bit so that "get a Chancellor, then declare civil war" is not guaranteed to be so effective next time? One possibility would be to introduce some kind of "loyalty test" mechanic with units - so that some units may defect or desert from an army. The likelihood of such attrition could depend on the political balance of power. That might make the Chancellor's mega army less likely to conquer all, if he lacks political support.

I guess one basic question to ask is why do we want civil wars in the game? We did not allow for them in the WotS and KotR rules and only really used them to make the bring the game to a conclusion. A good reason for allowing for civil wars is to deal with massive divisive conflicts that get so heated, they can only be resolved by war. The English Civil War and the American Civil War are examples of such things. An additional reason would be for allowing for more minor disputes etc between nobles, but I am not convinced that is the way to go (hence the duelling idea). If we just want civil wars to be "big", we could require some political prerequisite - e.g. only Dukes or higher can declare civil war. That also might be a good way of allowing for some but not all lesser disputes. Personally, I think the competition between players is more fun when done via politicking and jockeying for influence rather than engaging in open warfare.

While talking of declaring war, what are the rules about declaring wars on civil powers? I see the King can do - is it only the King? Or can the Senate vote for a war?

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I think the chancellor is a little too important in civil wars. While he certainly should be a factor, it seemed like having him on your side was all that mattered. I'm also rather concerned that the results of endgame PVP in KotR and LotR were so obvious in hindsight, rather than closely contested matches. Obviously there's no reason that can't happen some of the time, but if it keeps happening it may indicate a problem.

To answer your question about Civil Wars, we want them for the same reason we want duels. It's odd to not have the option when it makes sense that such things could happen. I like your idea for restrict people's ability to declare though. Perhaps counts can only start civil wars in order to break away from the Houses, either to join another House or to start a new one.

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Originally Posted by Cecil XIX

I think the chancellor is a little too important in civil wars. While he certainly should be a factor, it seemed like having him on your side was all that mattered. I'm also rather concerned that the results of endgame PVP in KotR and LotR were so obvious in hindsight, rather than closely contested matches. Obviously there's no reason that can't happen some of the time, but if it keeps happening it may indicate a problem.

To answer your question about Civil Wars, we want them for the same reason we want duels. It's odd to not have the option when it makes sense that such things could happen. I like your idea for restrict people's ability to declare though. Perhaps counts can only start civil wars in order to break away from the Houses, either to join another House or to start a new one.

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Which is what I saw as an inherent problem of the civil war system as of now, and it was my opinion that we some how balance this, possibly through a militia or mercenary recruitment, for those who had civil war declared upon them - possibly 2 militia of the highest quality from each settlement under the declared's control, be it a House, the Duke himself, or any of his underlings.

Those changes seem reasonable. I hadn't really expected many rules disputes to happen, I think about that one...

2 Dukes to call an emergency session makes sense.

Impeachment does indeed require an emergency session.

A garrison is any units inside of a settlement, at least for the purposes of the rules.

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Originally Posted by econ21

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On other matters, a few minor points on the rules:

3 (d) Wills and inheritance: insert Wills must be deposited with Zim before the character's death to be considered valid.
Ducal succession was an issue in KotR and personally I don't like players making key decisions after their avatar is dead. Do we explicitly allow Dukes to resign? If not, I think we should.

3 )(f) Rules disputes : maybe state that Zim's ruling can over turn that of the King/Prince/Chancellor? this is to avoid a player who really abuses this power in an OOC way. Also, I am leery of giving the Chancellor sole power over the disputes involving the King/Prince. Wouldn't a council of Dukes plus the Chancellor be better?

3(f) Emergency sessions I am leery about allowing Dukes to call these. They really slow the game down and I would rather not let one partisan player do this. Maybe require a second Duke to agree? Two Dukes shouting stop sounds like an emergency - one not so much.

On impeachment, presumably it requires an emergency session, if it is to be done out of full session?

5 (b) army ownership: what's a garrison? any pre-existing stack in a settlement? or just free upkeep militia?

French terminology - now we have selected our faction, does that mean we should change some terminology to fit the context? e.g. do we need titles for some of our concepts, e.g. should it be Senate or Parliament or Assembly or what? What are our 4 Houses going to be called and which provinces will be in which? My preference is for something regional, roughly corresponding to east, west, north, south, but I don't know the details.

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I think befriending the Chancellor or making careful use of prioritized units before a Civil War should give some advantages. I should note my case in LOTR was somewhat exaggerated. Nobody seemed to pay attention to my gross overspending and recruitment of troops in the middle of the Empire where they weren't needed (or if they did noone objected) and noone but Rossahh called in any prioritized units, which would have made things tougher.

I'm not sure about artificially buffing the defending side... maybe due to civil unrest units can't be recruited in provinces involved in a Civil War? This would have the side benefit of punishing anyone engaged in a long war, and mean that once it began, the advantage of having a Chancellor friend decrease greatly.

GH I fear that might be getting too complicated. I'd like the deciding phase for battles to go quickly, especially since a day or so of voting could easily take longer than many of the pvp battle methods (excepting tabletop of course). It is something to think about though...

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Originally Posted by Zim

I'm not sure about artificially buffing the defending side... maybe due to civil unrest units can't be recruited in provinces involved in a Civil War? This would have the side benefit of punishing anyone engaged in a long war, and mean that once it began, the advantage of having a Chancellor friend decrease greatly.

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That sounds like a fair compromise, and actually stresses House alliances more, who can give units from their lands, where they can still be recruited. It can also setup another House, such as those who prepared the whole thing, to suddenly be backstabbed and lose another Houses support who had been supplying them with troops.

I just don;t want our civil wars to all be "coups"

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Originally Posted by Zim

I'm not sure about artificially buffing the defending side... maybe due to civil unrest units can't be recruited in provinces involved in a Civil War? This would have the side benefit of punishing anyone engaged in a long war, and mean that once it began, the advantage of having a Chancellor friend decrease greatly.

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From what I understood from TC, the issue is not so much what the Chancellor does during the civil war - although that is an issue - but what he has done before. You recruit a big army and then declare civil war, not declare first and then recruit. If anything, freezing recruitment during the civil war could aggravate that, not address it as it makes permanent the initial advantage. (If the attackers were very unpopular, an emergency diet could impeach the Chancellor and the defenders could then use their own Chancellor to start recruiting troops). It would also seem wholly ahistoric - in the ECW, ACW etc, the starting armies were rather pitiful in size and quality. It was during the war that the sides recruited and trained masses to their side.

One step might be to say that Civil Wars are always "events" in which the gamemaster has the right to intervene by conjuring up and moving forces as he sees fit. That would remove the need to have complex rules to cover a tricky area, but by puts a lot of responsibility/pressure on Zim (and potentially turns it into a game of who has Zim's ear).

But I still like the "desert-deflect" mechanic I suggested. The idea would be that, whenever a noble joins a civil war, each of their units are subject to a "loyalty" test, which would be harder if the noble's side lacks political support. It would not be to artificially buff the defending side, but to allow for the fact that not all troops could be relied upon to fight against their brothers - especially if the cause was unpopular. (I am thinking of Russia in 1917 and also in the failed "coup" against Gorbachev amongst countless other examples here). The tricky part would be to gauge the degree of political support. What I would suggest is a secret ballot made at the start of the hostility where people voted for side A, B or abstained. The results would modify the loyalty test. This ballot would be a one shot affair, so it would be in civil warrior's interests to build up the popularity before the war - a good thing, IMO, because it would encourage "big" divisive civil wars as opposed to small coup like grabs for power. It would be secret so that people can declare their true sympathies, even if at the start of the war they are remaining neutral (or even playing a double game).

The test could be something simple - e.g. roll a D6.

0 or less defect
1 desert
2 desert
4+ pass

Modifiers could be:

If you have 75% or more support: +2
If you have 50% or more support: +1
If your opponent has 40% or more support: -1
If your opponent has 60% or more support: -2

Note these are percentages of all votes cast - including neutrals.

So in a balanced civil war, both sides would lose 1/3 of their starting units to desertion - making initially massing of a force a bit less effective. Defection would only occur when your opponent has considerable political support. Desertion would not be a problem if a strong majority rally around you.

This mechanic could either be formally in the rules or just one option open to the gamesmaster when running the civil war event. My preference would be for the former, so people can make informed plays and not be tempted to work behind the scenes to influence game mechanics, but adherents of KISS would prefer the latter.