Flawed argument as getting to these guy's families is the best way to discourage others. Of course that means being exceptionally cruel.
Printable View
Flawed argument as getting to these guy's families is the best way to discourage others. Of course that means being exceptionally cruel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Yep. It was at the top of google news this morning.
Wikileaks Afghanistan: Taliban 'hunting down informants'
How can he sleep at night?Quote:
The Taliban has issued a warning to Afghans whose names might appear on the leaked Afghanistan war logs as informers for the Nato-led coalition.
In an interview with Channel 4 News, Zabihullah Mujahid, a Taliban spokesman, said they were studying and investigating the report, adding “If they are US spies, then we know how to punish them.”
The warning came as the US military's top officer, Admiral Mike Mullen said that Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks, may already have blood on his hands following the leak of 92,000 classified documents relating to the war in Afghanistan by his website.
Of course they wiill, and they will make a point out of doing it. Can they outdo slowly burning someone? Hanging a 5 year old kid? An acid bath? Horetore also has a point though, a very very important one I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Not entirely true. I know a Dutch soldier who was there, and he spoke of the horrors, and the gangs of civilians from rag-tag militia, fighting each other, and killing women and children. Even stories of orphans being rescued from the rag-tag militia, who would have raped and killed them, because they from on the 'otherside'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
It isn't a total war game where soldiers are clearly marked and "innocent civilians" are no where to be seen. War is a dirty business.
We should have send construction workers instead of soldiers, it's a construction mission after all, and guns don't build schools.
Uhm, yes, like they will have to use a bullet and that will set them back a year financially.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Informant doesn't sound like random road worker to me though, it sounds like someone close to the Taliban who knows more than someone who puts tar onto the ground and tries to stay away from the Taliban.
And that would make them higher priority targets for the Taliban as these people might know about Taliban hideouts etc., quite unlike your common road worker.
Would you volunteer to go as a construction worker without the soldiers being there as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
Don't call it a construction mission then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
The 'construction' does not mean erecting buildings. It means building a country. That is, to establish law and order, democracy, a civil society, peace, human rights, and the necessary infrastructure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
When trying to establish law and order, one does not send in lawyers. When trying to buil a civil society, one does not send random civilians. When trying to establish human rights, one does not send in rightwing voters.
And one does not send in construction workers for a construction mission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
Actually what they should have done is nuke the place from the safety of the USA declared the war over on telly and everyone could get on with watching Big Brother
Modern Warfare ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
In addition to what Louis already pointed out - actual construction is being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
True, but ocnstruction implies that there is a foundation to build on, for example Germany or Japan after WW2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Afghanistan is a swamp. Build in a swamp and the structure sinks slowly beneath the surface without any evidence that it once was there.
~:smoking:
German foundations : http://www.google.com/images?client=...=&oq=&gs_rfai=Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Japanese foundations: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&c...=&oq=&gs_rfai=
No. They pretty much started from scratch.
".....but the fourth castle."Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
-- M. Python
No, but you have to have guns in order to get schools built. Ignorance, poverty and desolation is what the Taliban needs in order to project itself as a viable governing body. They fear nothing more than people, especially females, who can read, write and make their own decisions. The Taliban and HAqqani attacking workers has a lot less to do with them "working for infidels" than it does with trying to stop improvements in people's qaulity of life.
It's got sod all to do with buildings, but the mentality of the people. In Japan and germany the people immediately worked like ants to rebuild their society. They all knew what they were aiming for and hence reconstruction was possible. Bpth had very similar aspirations to the Allies - the Japanese had modelled many aspects of their culture on the British for example (clearly not all). Aid and expertise was quickly welcomed and resistance was limited at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Afghanistan is a place based on Tribes and violence which we are trying to change almost every aspect of without even asking if they want it! The ones that do accept it in the same way anyone accepts vast sums of money which they can trim or employ members of their family - all they have to do is pay the Westerners lip service at the odd meal.
Killing informants might be morally wrong to us, but the locals would still rather be alive.
~:smoking:
Yes the taliban might "fear" these readers and writers, and like all societies before them faced with this problem they'll round them up and kill them if need be. Probably after the first few the rest will get the message.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
Own decisions? The village / clan leader makes the decisions. That's the way it always has been. Taliban or not this would continue.
~:smoking:
The system of elders is already falling apart in more densely populated area. Elders often also own the water karezes and the property where the school, market, etc is. Build people wells and they don't need the elders any more.
In cities, little of what you said regarding clans applies.
Deferring decisions to clan leaders is almost wholly rejected by university students.
Can you not make your own decisions even though you have others representing you in city and state government? Believe me, there are plenty of elders who don't want female education, water wells that circumvent their water monopoly, or paved roads, as it will bust up their little frat party.
Afghanistan is a place based on Tribes and violence which we are trying to change almost every aspect of without even asking if they want it
While I agree that people take money and provide lip service for the sake of a golden egg, from my day to day (literally) dealings with people in Afghanistan, we don't have to ask because they are telling us and asking us. PRTs and ADTs don't just show up and build stuff. There is most certainly a "gotta get mine" attitude of getting while the getting is good. If it means more schools, more people who can run a proper farm and less kids dying from stupid hygiene snafus -- I could care less the means of getting there
I'm not defending the Afghani way of all power in the hands of a few, but that's the reality of it. Educated Afghans are more likely to leave the country than stay and fix it. Hell, so would I.
Cities are small and dispersed. The number of wars lost with a "hold the cities" approach is rather long. So would this one if not for constant support bolstering the area.
If the idea is the best result for the money, then don't start with Afghanistan. India has vast numbers requiring health and infrastructure that could be bolstered. The levels of waste in Afghanistan are far too high. I don't pay taxes to possibly sort of maybe help sort out a country 1/2 way round the globe when there are areas of London where kids carry knives routinely.
~:smoking:
What? As it has been said, actual construction is being done. What's wrong with having security in such a dangerous part of the world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq
By the way, give credit when you quote a founding father.
National politics, we officialy don't do combat missions, Uruzgan obviously was one but they kept selling it otherwise so Skull does have a reason to complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Taliban “hunting down informants”: And you all go for it…
Do you really think the war is lost? That the Taliban can do want they want to whom they want?
I give credit to the Taliban this: their PR is excellent. And thanks to people like some here, they spread the idea of their invincibility and their power even if they never de facto won a war.
“How can he sleep at night?” You can see how when you read: “may already have blood”…
Dramatisation is an art in Propaganda war.
As far I know these documents are not high secret, but the first level secret. So I doubt you would have the name of the 2nd in command of the 9th Taliban Military Zone who is in fact a Secret Agent informing NATO…
I read a second document concerning the French: The first document was showing a possibility of war crime at maximum and bloody blunder at minimum in French troops shooting in a bus full of children (The Guardian : "French convoy shoots 8 children on bus" 02/10/2008).
Thanks to Wikileak we now know it was 2 mini buses, which integrated themselves in the military convoy against all rules, ignored the visual signals from the Troops so the French soldiers shoot in the air then at the ground and a ricochet injured 1 child.
We learn that one helicopter was hot down by missile, missile apparently sent few years ago by the US during the Soviet War. Fact that our media didn’t mentioned but hardly a surprise for who follow the conflict and had even a little knowledge of the Russian War thanks to Osprey books.
“So, what did you learn from the documents that wasn't available elsewhere? How many have you read so far?”
That is the point. Operation Hard Wake UP conducted by the 13 RDP (French Special Forces Regiment) and Gendarmerie was publicised by the French Army itself (even the Special Forces are officially not in Afghanistan as the French are supposed only train the Local Army and Police…. Right…).
I am sorry but I see in these attacks only a massive artillery barrage (smoke and explosive) against Wikileak on alleged moral grounds (he gives the name of the future victims) but fortunately and hopefully baseless just an attempt to have the site close.
Now, these attitude and comments are playing in the Taliban hands.
It gives them nice tools to discourage any collaboration with the Allies Forces as we (Allies) will give the names and they will be killed.
Taliban commanders are seeing this with glee… I would if I would be one of them. Like in Vietnam, the defeat of my enemy will come when I will succeed to convince him he lost.
And comments like the ones I read here tell me they are not far to reach this level.
As noticed but Andres and previously point out, these documents were sold to 3 major media. Not available to every body. So the Taliban won’t be able to see the names if there are some…
I believe they're freely available on the Wikileaks website; if that's true than they're available to everyone. "Secret" is the second highest level of classification in the U.S. government. "A few years ago" is ~1989 at the latest; Stinger's don't have a shelf-life of 20 years.
That's just a quick scan of your post.
"Stinger's don't have a shelf-life of 20 years" Yeap, probably why only one succeed by chance or luck depending your side.
"I believe they're freely available on the Wikileaks website" Not what I read on the news
So I haven't followed this story all this closely, but I do have one serious question.
The WikiLeaks guy.... on the surface, he's claiming he's leaking all of this information because he expects intelligence and military organizations to practice full, unfettered disclosure any information, no matter how sensitive, at all times, and its his right to disclose when they choose not to.
If that's true, why isn't he posting any information on Taliban or Pakastani plans? When you leak secret information from only one side, it sort of makes you complacent with the other side, no?
Seriously... if the guy wants to "walk the walk" to hisbu%!sh@^ storyehr, talk, he should publish some material the Taliban has tried to conceal and find damaging. Until he does, I think there's a strong case to be made that he's working for the Taliban.
And to really prove he's a man of his convictions, he should provide his local address & personal phone number on his website, let the rest of the world get some 'free speech' opportunities.
That's sort of true but sort of not as well. There are many, many classifications that are better protected than "classified" or "top secret." A lot of them are subject- or project-specific, and you need to be "read" into them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
As a broad category? Sure, "secret" is a step up from "confidential." But the "second highest level of classification"? Only from a very narrow, specific perspective.
PFC Manning, Mr. Assange, and those that published this information will have blood on their hands. They're pretty cavalier about putting U.S. soldiers and our allies at risk. Perhaps the various countries that host WikiLeaks' servers can provide these informers and their entire families with refugee status now that their lives are in jeopardy. :no:Quote:
Anyone who clings to the historically untrue--and thoroughly immoral--doctrine that 'violence never solves anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The Ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more disputes in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.
- Robert Heinlein
And NATO has not? But it's okay, the NATO only kills evil terrorists that want to destroy our freedom (or what's left of it) and they kill innocent soldiers and that is sooo sad because they have done nothing wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Where did you come from? Between you and the blonde haired guy from Scandanavia, I've had my fill out outlandish comments for the month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq