Here are the cav battles (CavBattles02.zip). Judge it for yourself whether all cav is invincible ...
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Here are the cav battles (CavBattles02.zip). Judge it for yourself whether all cav is invincible ...
Baz,
The reason is so that one particular army "cannot" beat all other armies. If it could, then everyone would use just that army. There is nothing stopping players from setting up games that are balanced except their own inability to agree.
Fast,
Why shouldn't cav be able to disengage? The cav doesn't penetrate and become emeshed in a spear unit. You're right that you can't kill the cav with the spear unless the cav stays there and fights. However, the cav can't just run around and flank the spear because the spear can turn fast enough to always face the cav. Try a polearm unit if you want something that kills cav faster. I do think the cost of spears is a little too high now since they suffer pushbacks and the cav was made less expensive.
Puz I'm srry but I have to disagree with that comment to baz. In STW we had a similar situation, I used the same army countless battles and I know there were more players who did that. With that army it was possible to counter ALL other armies. I'm not saying it was easy countering a monkrush but it was very well possible. Still I didn't see everyone pick that same army.
plz dont show me battles where u can see all cav can be beaten. the fact remains, if u dont expect all cav and the wielder of teh all cav army is skilled enuf not to "just throw them in" than ur doomed.
as ever its hard to agree on something here, so teh dislikers better wait till a new version.
well puuz,
i disagree with u as well
in stw (and in mtw) i use normaly my balanced army and i win most of times, true youss....and still many other dont use such setup??? hell why
the most guys are not able control a balamced army, ist just to much effort to move special units on several points to face the counter unit....they like to use a easy controlable army....thats the mainpoint
take all the replays and show me some nice moves, u wont find many....
koc
hm
WHY?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
What prevents you to expect all cav? What prevents you to prepare for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
So, it turns out that you need skill to win with an all cav army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Look Magy, you have countless options to play the game in a way you want. If you are afraid of unit selection then you can agree with your opponent to pick the same army; if you do not like heavy cavs then play desert battles; if you want 6+ morale then play with the "all units v3" rule, etc. I do not think that this game would be "wasted", IMHO it all depends on your attitude: whether you want fun or whether you want to bend the game to fit your preconceptions. If you want fun then you will find fun. If you want to bend the game to fit your mind then you will be frustrated (if not frustrated already). If I were you I would pick fun instead of frustration http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/flirt.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Cheetah
youssof_Toda,
MTW doesn't have one army that can counter all other armies. If you try to stick with the same army all the time in MTW, you're opponent will simply pick a counterarmy. CA has rejected the idea that the so called balanced army should counter all other armies. STW had imbalances too, and wasn't as great as it's being made out to be. One of the things that MTW has going for it is that the rush doesn't work as well as it did in STW.
You can play at low enough florins so that players can't choose all elite units to get away from the all cav and such armies, but then you have low morale also. The way around this is with LongJohn's idea of equal valor units. The only thing that's not optiimzed with the equal valor idea is what florin level to simulate. It's not clear that 5k is the correct amount, but it's close to that or possibly just under 5k. Games at valor 3 have these benefits:
1) +6 morale so units fight longer, and maneuver and unit matchups are more important. Spears are helped greatly by this +6 morale.
2) can only buy a few elite knights so other units come into play that we don't see much of now. If you buy several mounted knights, you have to choose weak infantry.
3) ability of cav to rout by flanking is reduced. Actually, all morale penalties are effectively reduced, and contact is more often needed to rout a unit.
4) ranged units become cheaper relative to non-ranged units because the valor upgrade cost less. I even used horse archers successfully in a couple of games.
5) battlefield valor upgrades on cav drops out as a factor because they start at v3
6) you can adopt wider formations because units can be used more independently, but routing it still present so you can't completely disgard morale support issues.
7) if +6 morale is too much, then it's easy to simulate +4 with all valor 2.
8) can't say faction balance is improved. It may actually be worse, but only a few battles have been fought so it's not clear.
im game for a try ..
played a valour 3 game earlier, couldn't tell much from it but hopefully will play more in future http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
hmmm koc, whats wrong with my horsearcher armies? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
why not implement a checkbox where u can play with teh same army as your opponent
sigh, its all so useless. well i passed the point of frustration, its more the sadness. games are so boring.
but ah well, a wolf goes where teh sheeps go... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif
Well I'm not here to tell what the game has to be like I simply tell what I see. As for rushing: the heavy cav rush army in MTW is a far greater threat than any other rush army I encountered in STW. The only rush I would fear in STW was that of AMP.
My only real criteria for mp is: did the gameplay get better? We can go into every mathematical detail which is necesarry if you are trying to implement changes but in the end I prefer to look at the overall picture. My personal oppinion and that of most players I see regularly (thus I'm only talking about the players with whom I regularly play I'm not stating this is the oppinion of all players) is a strict NO.
youssof_Toda,
Well the all cav rush in MTW can be beaten easier than the all monk rush in STW.
dont agree, monk rush was easy due to guns cav rush properly executed is not easy to stop Play amp a few games and let us know the outcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Swoosh,
AMP just stated in this thread that anyone can stop all cav. Cheetah posted a replay where he stopped AMP's all cav and Cheetah's technique could be improved. I've stopped AMP's all cav myself and seen other people stop it. I think the gameplay in MTW is an improvement over STW. STW was an infantry rush game.
A monkrush was easy to evade. You sended ur arch cav forward to rain arrows on the enemy and you let ur h2h units and musk run to the nearest hill and sat on top of it, you could move to one flank of the enemy while avoiding the other, etc., etc. The problem with the all cav rush army is its speed.
I know how to rush in STW I didn't do anything else for over 200 games. The key was to hit the enemy center with ur center and you had to flank quickly. All you had to do as an oponent was making sure that ur center wasn't oposed to the enemy's center. If that happened it would take the rest of the monkrush army too much time to flank and the rest would already be running off.
The big diff with the monk rush is that the all cav army is much faster than a non-all cav army. Try to evade all cav with footsoldiers it wont work. That's the main problem outmanouvering isn't possible cuz you will always be slower if you don't have an all cav army urself.
Yes he may have beaten amps all cav army but he was probably anticipating the attack from an all cav army You cant go through every game taking an anti cav army , whats the point.
well according to our records Koc and AMp tested together lately all cav and both came to somehow the same opinion, it sucks. maybe we should use it all more often so we can convince the few who keep defending all cav can be beaten ez enuf, ennuf not to chance it.
well i have my copy of neverwinternights now... a good game to get my attention away from this mess.
MTW with teh system and the units s it is now have taken away the ebauty of the game.
instead of 4 max we must play with 2max 3v and restart every game to get it playable.
its a mess and sofar it aint gonna chance.
i hope potential buyers read this and buy a copy of never winter nights instead.
You like neverwinter nights? I thought it was a step backward instead of a step forward from baldurs gate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
All you need is 4 spears..throw in a few halbs too and you should have more than enough to do it. Its the formation that is a problem as you need a defensive square formation to stop it.
One thing the all cav army doesnt have is time. If he wants to win he needs to rush as soon as possible to surprise his opponent. That means he wont get much support from his allies(except some cav perhaps)..it also means that if the target get cav support from his allies, the all cav army is in trouble as he might get flanked.
But ofc you need skilled allies to send help quickly if needed. And you need to know what to do if facing all cav.
The all cav army is no doubt a dangerous army and I dont like seeing 16 heavy cav in one army, especially with the expensive spears we have right now. But it can be defeated if you know what to do without buying a silly anticav army.
CBR
I would say players who dont like the lancer line or cav idea limit their games to 4 or 5 cav a side, makes it nice and easy to eliminate the problem. Its not difficult to call a game 5 cav rule or something like that.
i consider 12 cavd and 4 inf (shooters) as well as all cav armies.
somethimes in multies i see more cavknights then there was in the whole medieval crusade. figurly spoken.
so u must take 4 spears each game to be sure u match the rock scissors papers well... well i never see 4 spears being welcome in a victorious army
perhaps a solution could be to do a tourney without any limits, a godo thing for a poll....
You could do that but that will still make turkish and egyptian medium horses weak as they rely more on quantity than quality, so you need rules like 5 cav max for western factions and perhaps 8 cav max for muslim..or something like that. And the Spanish faction will still have a big advantage from their Lancers.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
V3 games gives the muslims the ability to use lots of medium cav and forces the spanish to buy less quality foot if he wants Lancers so thats what I prefer.
CBR
youssof_Toda,
Yes, you're right. The initiative is with the cav army because of it's speed. Monks were about the same speed as other inf in STW, so you didn't have the speed advantage that cav have in MTW. If you take one of these infantry based anti-cav armies, you have to adopt a defensive posture. You can advance straight ahead at the cav if you have some way of protecting your flanks. The deterent to people always taking a cav army is these anti-cav infantry based armies. As good as AMP is with all cav, he doesn't take it all the time because he'd have to face the anti-cav army all the time.
There is no question that lancers are mathematically unbalanced. Monks were mathematically unbalance also. There are lots of units in MTW that are not balanced as well as they could be, and, unless everyone plays with the same units, you can't have a fair game.
hm
Indeed, since we were testing all cav armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif But if you watch the replay you will see that I started in line, pretending "to know nothing", and only after the start did I switch into a semi-box formation (i.e. it was not a proper box). But, you are correct, I have expected the rush, which is obvious from my army setup as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Why not? If you fear the cav rush then take your anti cav army, if not then take a well-balanced-army. BTW, you have a decent chance even with a WBA. Of course, a sword/cav heavy army can beat a WBA (I guess, that is what Magy was thinking about when he said that 4 spears are not welcome) but a sword/cav heavy army can be defeated by an allcav army. Obviously, army selection is more important than it was in STW/MI. I understand that some may not like this, but MTW and STW/MI are different games.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
since unit match ups are more important now, in theorry someone can loose his rock scissor paper game more than he compensate with skill.
Well, they are spanish, they are nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
Even if i have to face them i like it. Great problems has to be solved with great solutions, so it is nice try to beat them.
(btw, if someone know how to do it pls explain... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif )
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif
I just don't see the problem. I took out Cran's all Spanish cav army with my standard army in a 1v1 test where he used long lines and the click behind technique, and I didn't use a silly box formation. Of course, if the cav player completely surrounds you with his units, then you have to place units facing in all directions.
That most likely hasn't been yer standard army for long, Yuuki... IIRC it had 4 knights, 4 arbs, 4 militia sergeants and 4 swiss halberdiers... (correct me if I'm wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif)
I was surprised myself at how quickly my center was chopped up. In that situation the cheesy doubleclick charge couldn't have worked. Perhaps the result would have been different if i had used them "tac-teecs" err duh, is that something to eat...?
And about the doubleclick behind lines... I believe knights _do_ get their charge bonus quite often with it because they often break into an "impestuous" charge.
All in all, looks like the future is in polearms... or near future at least. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
Cran,
You're not quite right on the army, and it has always been my standard German army. I did play the French for a long time, and they don't have swiss halbs. So in that sense, it hasn't been my standard army. I played Italians before that, and I had a spear based army with them that defeated all cav.
If I believed the so called experts then the long lines and double click behind beats everything, cav is overpowered, arbs are too strong, lancers are unbeatable, Byz inf is unbeatable, hangunners are not unbalanced, the game is 2D, the morale circles are too big, fatigue is too much, routing enemies give your units a morale penalty, it takes no skill to play and the game is boring.