Napoleonic Mod

Before I jump to the specific challenges let me take a French army corps that participated in the battle of Waterloo (mother of all battles IMHO&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif and try to model it using the method outlines above. The corps in questions is the second corps of the French army commanded by General Reille. The order of battle (OOB) for that particular corps is given below:

II Corps
General Reille (Corps Commander)

Corps Artillery Reserve
12 pounder heavy artillery battery
6-pdr foot artillery battery
6-pdr horse artillery battery

Corps commander and the corps reserve artillery is to be modeled as an army in MTW

5th Infantry Division
Division Commander : General Bachelu
1st Brigade (Husson)
3rd Line Regiment(2 Bns),
61st Line Regiment (2 Bns)
2nd Brigade (Campi)
72nd Line Regiment (2 Bns),
108th Line Regiment (3 Bns)
Divisional commander, the individual battalions and the divisional artillery is to be modeled as an army in MTW. 9 units of 60 musketeers each for the 9 battalions. No divisional artillery here. Div commander should be associated with the first battalion of the first regiment in the first brigade. Brigade commanders could not be modeled.


6th Division
Division Commander : Prince Jerome
1st Brigade
1st Light (3 Bns)
2nd Light (4 Bns)
2nd Brigade
1st Line (3 Bns)
2nd Line (3 Bns)
Divisional commander, the individual battalions and the divisional artillery is to be modeled as an army in MTW. 13 units of 60 musketeers each for the 13 battalions. No divisional artillery here. Div commander should be associated with the first battalion of the first regiment in the first brigade. Brigade commanders could not be modeled.




9th Division
Division Commander : General Foy
1st Brigade (Gauthier)
92nd Line (2 Bns),
93rd Line (3 Bns)
2nd Brigade (Lamin)
100th Line (3 Bns),
4th Light (3 Bns)

Divisional commander, the individual battalions and the divisional artillery is to be modeled as an army in MTW. 11 units of 60 musketeers each for the 11 battalions. No divisional artillery here. Div commander should be associated with the first battalion of the first regiment in the first brigade. Brigade commanders could not be modeled.


2nd Cav Division
Division Commander : General Pire
1st Brigade (Hubert)
1st Chasseurs,
6th Chasseurs
2nd Brigade (Wathiez)
5th Lancers,
6th Lancers
Divisional commander and the individual regiments are to be modeled as an army in MTW. 4 units of 60 mounted men each for the 4 regiments. No divisional artillery here. Div commander should be associated with the first regiment in the first brigade. Brigade commanders could not be modeled.

-Cuirassier

Battle Sounds for testing

Let us know what you think.

Thanks

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

The new units and the sounds are absolutely terrific LK. I love my Carabiniers a Cheval and Cuirassiers.

I have an old machine (Pentium 3, 455 MHz). MTW would not let me use any other resolution than 800 x 600. Do you have any clue as to why?

Best Regards,
Cuirassier

The challenges of using MTW engine for a Napoleonic Mod:
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In the following I shall list some of the challenges that would be encountered by any modder to adapt the MTW engine for Napoleonic battles.
I have (partial) solutions for some of the challenges. For others I don’t. I would be thankful to get some inputs from other modders.

Challenge #1: How to make infantry form square when being charged by cavalry? The square formation should be nearly impervious to a cavalry charge but should be vulnerable to volley fire from deployed infantry and should be very vulnerable to artillery.


Challenge # 2: How model light infantry being deadly in woods, forests, broken terrain and built-up areas? A unit of light infantry in skirmish formation in the terrain types mentioned above should receive extra morale and sharpshooting bonuses.


Challenge # 3: How make infantry form attack columns? This formation should reduce the firepower by 60% but should greatly increase the morale and the melee strength of the attackers.


Challenge # 4: How to model artillery that moved on the battlefield?


Challenge # 5: How to model large Napoleonic era battles under the limitations of the MTW engine? A battle like Waterloo had approximately 70000 combatants per side and there were 3 sides / factions (The French, Anglo-Dutch-German and the Prussians).


Challenge # 6: How to build the orders of battles for the Napoleonic era battles under the limitations of the MTW engine? It would be nice if we could give specific names to individual 60 man units like : 1 Battalion 13th Legere, 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, 2 Battalion 2nd Grenadiers etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Cuirassier66 @ April 02 2003,15:51)]The new units and the sounds are absolutely terrific LK. I love my Carabiniers a Cheval and Cuirassiers.

I have an old machine (Pentium 3, 455 MHz). MTW would not let me use any other resolution than 800 x 600. Do you have any clue as to why?

Best Regards,
Sivakumar

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Sounds like you need to update your vid card drivers mate...

[QUOTE]Challenge # 5: How to model large Napoleonic era battles under the limitations of the MTW engine? A battle like Waterloo had approximately 70000 combatants per side and there were 3 sides / factions (The French, Anglo-Dutch-German and the Prussians).


my solution to this (as with many battles i have recreated) is to accurratly represent the units present at the battles, i.e 70000, would become 3000 and the forces in the 70000 would be given a percent value and then the same percent value would be used to create the units on the mtw battle field, thus keeping the accuracy but in smaller numbers.

Or smaller senarios can be created , such as the siege of le hay sainte .

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Thanks Kyodai

I was thinking along those lines myself. Refer to my earlier posts on the army organization and OOB.

I suggested that each 60 man unit reprsent a battalion with 600 muskets. Even with this 10:1 scaling we might run into a problem.

The French had around 70000, the Anglo-Dutch-German had around 70000 and the Prussians appeared later in the flank with another 60000 or so. With 10:1 rule that makes around 20000 figures to animate.

Would the MTW system be able to handle that?

-Cuirassier

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Cuirassier66 @ April 03 2003,11:48)]Thanks Kyodai

I was thinking along those lines myself. Refer to my earlier posts on the army organization and OOB.

I suggested that each 60 man unit reprsent a battalion with 600 muskets. Even with this 10:1 scaling we might run into a problem.

The French had around 70000, the Anglo-Dutch-German had around 70000 and the Prussians appeared later in the flank with another 60000 or so. With 10:1 rule that makes around 20000 figures to animate.

Would the MTW system be able to handle that?

-Cuirassier

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It is possible to reduce the size of the sprites
and that would give you other options.
I have yet to hear anybodies views on this.
I have mentioned it before but no takers yet.
Why? Is it that mad an idea?
I have a sample, they would be in
scale with the houses and tents
at the size I refer to

btw 20000 figures is not a problem
for mtw.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Stormer, hei

Glad to see your enthusiasm. But we just have this little business of unfinished units (like a paltry 30 more units), the means to make the infantry form square etc etc.

Once we are done with the units and their behaviour, we have to do some battle maps , leader portraits and battle sounds and commands.

Then we have to start on the campaign maps with different graphics for the buildings of the period.

We are at the units making phase right now. So you see, we have a wee bit more to do before the mod is out.

So keep checking.

LK, your idea of scaling down the sprites to 60% of the current size would be worth a try I think.

Cuirassier

Yeah, the new cavalry units, rocks
Just seeing the French Cuirassiers charging knee-to-knee right into that thin red line is amazing.

THANK YOU

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Stormer @ April 03 2003,15:01)]ok keep it up sounds good

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Be thankful Lord 66 answered the question
before I did. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

I have compiled a list of the units that need to be made. I am thinking of the 1815 Waterloo campaign to begin with. So this would give us three factions : French, Anglo-Dutch-German and Prussian.

Here it goes :

French Units:
*************

Infantry
*******

1* Old Guard Grenadiers
2* Old Guard Chasseurs
3* Middle Guard Infantry
4* Young Guard Infantry
5* Line Infantry – Elite. A good example would be the 57th of the Line, "The Terrible 57th"
6* Line Infantry – Veteran. Almost all of the French line infantry could be classified as veteran.
7* Light Infantry – Elite. A good example would be the 13th Light.
8* Light Infantry – Veteran. Almost all of the French light infantry could be classified as veteran.

Cavalry
******
9* Grenadiers a Cheval de la Garde
10* Empress’ Own Dragoons
11* Chasseurs a Cheval de la Garde
12* Lanciers de la Garde
13* Carabiniers a Cheval
14* Cuirassiers
15* Line Dragoons
16* Hussars
17* Chasseurs a Cheval
18* Line Lancers

Artillery
******
19* Guard 12 pounder heavy foot battery. Guard artillery batteries should have higher mobility than line guns due to the fact that the guard guns had more horses per team and were better trained.
20* Guard 6 pounder horse battery (Volante). Guard artillery batteries should have higher mobility than line guns due to the fact that the guard guns had more horses per team and were better trained.
21* Line 12 pounder heavy foot battery.
22* Line 6 pounder foot battery.
23* Line 6 pounder horse artillery battery. One way to distinguish foot and horse batteries could be to let the figures accompanying horse guns be mounted.

So all in all 23 units to do and animate for the French. LK has already done 6,8,9,11,13,14 and 17.

-Cuirassier

Here are some of the new portraits.
First British:
Collingwood
http://www.finupdivers.com/mtw/british/admiral04.jpg
Nelson
http://www.finupdivers.com/mtw/british/admiral05.jpg
Wellington - now we finally know, what Welly looks like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif (Must be a picture showing him in his younger days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif )
http://www.finupdivers.com/mtw/british/general04.jpg
Russian:
Kutusov
http://www.finupdivers.com/mtw/russian/general07.jpg
Barclay de Tolly
http://www.finupdivers.com/mtw/russian/general09.jpg
Bagration
http://www.finupdivers.com/mtw/russian/general25.jpg

I now have finished 26 russian and 11 british portraits.

If anyone who reads this would have pictures of colored portraits of any kind of Officers from the Napoleonic period (1790-1820) please send them to me. Size and quality don't matter because I can do a lot in Photoshop.

All the ones I have I'm sure will be built in some future download Lord Krazy is working on.

Best wishes
Hal

PS: Quality is poor because I had them converted to .jpg's a bit hasty - Original .tga's a far better.

Hal, I found this site, http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian.../787/Napoleon/ and it has alot of Portaits that you might be able to use. Check it out. LOS http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...leon/index.jpg

@Lord of Storms

Thanks for your help - I have this one already - loaded it down for offline use.

Actually some of my austrian portraits are from this site. But unfortunately very few are colored - it would be a big pain to color them by myself so before I start with this I want to be sure that there a no colored ones available.

I'm as well looking for the not so famous leaders - its easy to find portraits of the few famous ones. But I found it quite hard to research regimental commanders and "2nd rank" leaders.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Best wishes
Hal

Those are fantastic portraits hal

I have a book with quite a few French and Russian portraits in it (its for the battle of Borodino) most of the commanders from the battle. I will see if I can scan them for you. Unfortunatly most are Black and white but a few are colour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ April 05 2003,12:19)]Those are fantastic portraits hal

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Nice to hear you like them.

As for the portraits in your book - try to just get me the colored ones - I already have loads of black and white ones.

Best wishes
Hal

PS: I'm also interested in womens and members of clerus's portraits from the Nap period.

Doh My scanner is not working

Anyway i have had a bit of a search on the net (trying to make up for a broken scanner) and have found 1 or 2 sites that may be helpful/

http://www.napoleonguide.com/napgal_index.htm -Has pics of Napoleon from the begining to the end of the wars.

http://www.lombardmaps.com/napoleon.htm -Has a few pics of Napoleons Generals

http://www.napoleonguide.com/asitemap.htm - Each biography of Napoleons Enemy's and Marshalls has a portrait with it.


Sorry again that I can;t scan in the portraits I have at home. Hope that those sites help.

I realy wish i could do more for this Mod, but I have no modding skill.

found this also on Nap. period flags, has a large selection of all the colors used in the Nap.period by various countries and units, thought someone might find it useful www.warflags.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ April 05 2003,12:59)]Doh My scanner is not working

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What a pity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ April 05 2003,12:59)]Anyway i have had a bit of a search on the net (trying to make up for a broken scanner) and have found 1 or 2 sites that may be helpful/

http://www.napoleonguide.com/napgal_index.htm -Has pics of Napoleon from the begining to the end of the wars.

http://www.lombardmaps.com/napoleon.htm -Has a few pics of Napoleons Generals

http://www.napoleonguide.com/asitemap.htm - Each biography of Napoleons Enemy's and Marshalls has a portrait with it.

Sorry again that I can;t scan in the portraits I have at home. Hope that those sites help.

I realy wish i could do more for this Mod, but I have no modding skill.

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YOU CAN

Just keep on researching. Try to use creative search terms. If you know the names of a certain person (ie Mack, Wurmser, Bellegarde, etc. - you can take them from Orders of Battles, which can be found easily via google or here: http://www.histofig.com/ - do not go for the well known like the french marshals - I already have all of them) search for the person.

You could also search for pages about the history and military history of involved nations and countries or for military regiments veterans associations - they sometimes have portraits of regimental commanders.

You could as well try to research painters active in the Napoleonic period and then search for their paintings.

I.e. I was looking for "Goya" and on the 8th Google results page I found the name of a General portrayed by Goya. But the link was dead. So I started a search with the generals name and "Goya" and found this AMAZING site: http://www.artehistoria.com/frames.....tm?http

The have ALL the paintings by Goya which means loads of portraits to use for Generals, Emissaries, Princesses and Bishops.

Everything you find you can send to: webmaster@finupdivers.com

The sites I already have:
www.napoleonseries.org
www.1789-1815.com
www.ehmke-art.de/de/main.html
www.histunif.com
members.xoom.virgilio.it/murat/
www.grosser-generalstab.de

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Lord Of Storms @ April 05 2003,13:16)]found this also on Nap. period flags, has a large selection of all the colors used in the Nap.period by various countries and units, thought someone might find it useful www.warflags.com

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif

"Ich weiss nicht was soll es bedeuten...." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Best wishes
Hal

here is the exact url http://www.warflag.com/napflags/html/flags.htm and I was just at the site it has all the colors (Flags) used by the countries and units of the Napoleonic wars...

Prussian Line infantry colors circa 1806 http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flags/pr1806_1.gif

http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flags/pr1808_gn.gif 1st East Prussian Grenadier Battalion
Staff colour: White
2nd East Prussian Grenadier battalion
Staff colour: Black
West Prussian Grenadier Battalion
Staff colour: White
Silesian Grenadier Battalion
Staff colour: White
Pommeranian Grenadier Battalion
Staff colour: White
Lieb Grenadier Battalion
Staff colour: Black

Just a small "s" - and what a difference http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

We will probably make good use of them

Today was a very successful day: I made good business in my shop and found loads of spanish and british portraits - and you found the flags. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

Did you have a look at LK's art test? I liked it

Hi to all,

I have been working on creating historical battles for the Napoleonic mod that the lords, Wellington and other are making.
The main problem I am facing is the scale. The map that is used in in MTW is a little small to account for the battles (Marengo for example). Does anyone know if it is possible to increase the size of the battles map (beside choosing it in the map editor) ?
Also the napoleon campaigns are constituted of many battles and some help is needed…Anyone interested in making maps?
If so, post a reply

Thanks

Lord Le Bob

Welcome LeBob,

why not reduce scale. Due to the limitations of the MTW enginde we will not be able to place as many troops as took part in the real battles.

Also when mapmaking we will not be allowed to place to many buildings.

So may be a reduction of scale of the landscape will create something like an original relation unit sizes/ landscape dimensions?

best wishes
Hal

LeBob,welcome

Please see my earlier posts on the Nap Mod Thread.

I have suggested that we keep the current map scale but use some abstractions for the troop numbers.

In a nutshell: a 60 man musketeer unit represents a battalion of 600 infantry soldiers. A unit of 40 horsemen represents a cavalry regiment of 400 soldiers. In short a ratio of 10:1.

I have several maps of Nap battles. Especially of the Waterloo campaign. Ask away if you need me to scan anything.

-Cuirassier.
(You may want to post this in the Nap Mod Thread&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

I'd just like to say thanks for a great mod.

hi,

I have decided how i can help this mod (if you will let me)

I can make battle maps for you of many of the major battles. I have numerous books on the battles of the Napoleonic wars to use as reference.
I can;t promise the Maps will be brilliant, and i will scale them down to roughly 10:1 as Curassier sugested.

Are there any battle in particular you would like me to do?
I have plenty of good references for the early battle agains Austria (Marengo, Aspern-Essling) and against russia (Borodino).