Fury of the Northmen Mod

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,12:55)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] I'm now quite busy with researching so I don't post much here, but believe me I'm there doing things.

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Don´t feel stressed EC. I just wanted to know if you need any assistance since most of the facs have been researched.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As for German faction(s), it all depends on the exact date we'd be looking at. The Empire of Charles the Great would no doubt be one faction that must be here.

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Well, his empire crumbled around 800AD so it would be possible to start the game, let´s say around 775BC since you can´t view any of your neighbours for the first decade or so before you build border forts, ports, ships etc. This will alow us to make a around 300 turns campaign and end it around 1066AD, preferably ort even up to 1100 AD.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] So this already gives 4 'frankish' factions, which as I believe is quite enough.

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I agree, that would be preferable and satisfactory.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] I'm now working on dividing the area from Brittany to Finland into provinces. I'm done with the west, up to Poland, plus I also placed there those Estonian and Finnish provinces. I'll post the link to what I'm working on, later, so everyone will see what I'm talking about.

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Sounds absolutely outstanding to me EC. Keep in mind though that you take a look at Wilpurri´s and Trax´ research, that´s beeen posted earlier in this thread, before doing anything radical, ok?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] And when will be the campaign(s) set? It's simply crucial for researching factions.

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Let´s settle for approximately 775-1100AD, since it doesn´t matter if we move it a decade or so. When this mod is finished Norse and I are actually thinking of making a 3 era game from around 550-1300AD so any info regarding other eras is important. For now we agreed upon the significance of releasing v1.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Gore @ April 19 2004,10:11)]Is this mod finished?

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Nope. Since Norse has a degree to study for and I´ve limited time I think it would be reasonable to plan a release in the summertime. But it also depends on how many people that help us out with time consuming things like faction research, text-file editing, graphics, map-making etc. As you can see, on earlier posts, our ranks are growing each week but at this point it´s best not to set a date since we all want this mod to portray the viking era in the best way possible rather than releasing something half-finished. Wouldn´t you agree?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,23:21)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,12:55)]I'll post the link to what I'm working on, later, so everyone will see what I'm talking about.

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here

Regards,
EC

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 20 2004,01:21)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,12:55)]I'll post the link to what I'm working on, later, so everyone will see what I'm talking about.

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here

Edit1: The question marks mark the provinces I think might be split or erased to give some room elsewhere. I personally'd like to see a separate province of Rugen, as its capital, Arkona, was a major religious center with a magnificent temple housing a statue of slavic diety Swietowit (the largest slavic diety statue that was ever created). It'd be cool to see Jomsborg in game as well, so I think maybe making Wolin a province, or at least splitting Pomerania in two (west and east) would be a good idea. I also don't think Estonia needs all those provinces there. As for the western europe, there aren't many provinces, but they should be made considerably wealthier compared to all those other tiny regions I believe, to keep the balance and do not overpower Frankish state(s).

Edit2: The regions with red crosses on them are not included, their capiatals are located outside the borders of this map, and thus it makes no sense to me to include them.

Regards,
EC

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I think you could go for the 3 province variant for Estonia
and give one free province to Livonians and use the second somewhere else(there are some too big provinces in france and Germany IMHO.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 19 2004,17:53)]

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Great work and suggestions EC.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] I think you could go for the 3 province variant for Estonia and give one free province to Livonians and use the second somewhere else(there are some too big provinces in france and Germany IMHO.

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Remember that we can also use minor faction provinces as rebels. Personally I´d like to see one more Finn-prov, Ile de France divided with Anjou and maybee a Frisia province. See my earlier post above.

Since we´re covering all the possible factions, planning provinces and researching everything at such a pace I think it´s time I´ll let you guys in on a little secret that Norse and I´ve been planning from the start of this mod:

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...gc-curtain.gif

There´s going to be 8 viking factions in this mod

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/jawdrop.gif

Yes, your eyes doesn´t fail you - 8. Three for Norway, three for Sweden and 2 for Denmark.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

Guys, this looks great Put in my opinion Savo-Karelia should stretch further south on the Karelian isthmus. Check the second map that i posted.

EDIT: The Livonian province is too small. I think two provinces should be livonian. Another way to go about it would be uniting the two Livonian provinces. Look at Trax' map of the baltic tribes.

Very nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

One minor point, could you rename the south Estonian province to
Ugandi, I think it was more important then Sakala and the province castle (Tarbatu or Tartu) would also be located there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 21 2004,06:06)]Wilpuri, I know that Savo-Karelia stretched further south on your map, but on that other map of Russian states you posted, Novgorod occupied the territory you're now arguing about. Tha map is a kind of compromise, as in different times, the provinces had different shapes. The same goes for Poland for example, the shape of it would be different in 800 and different in 1000.

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The map i posted concerning the Staraya-Ladoga area is from PRESENT times, just to show you guys where the city/town itself was. The second I posted is pretty much the Karelian province or it's sphere of influence. Isn't Staraya Ladoga going to get it's own province?

What is the name of the province between Ugandi and Semgalia?

I tought that Livonia is the small province between Curonia and the sea. The big one between Ugandi and Semgalia could be
Latgalia(?) perhaps?

Sorry. I am still not leaving you alone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Are these two areas one and the same province despite being divided by the sea?
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/.../11346/map.jpg

Wilpuri, Trax and EC
I'm really impressed by your contributions the last week. Your information and work will undoubtedly prove to be invaluable for the mod. I now consider you to be part of the dev team(well, if you want to) and you have more than earned the right to have your say and influence how the game will eventually be.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]It'd be the best if Norseman or PseRamesses also expressed their opinions about it.

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I'm sorry I haven't given you more feedback, I've been really busy, and will probably be so for at least another 1 1/2 month.

As for the map and regions, I had a plan when I first started this mod. The idea was that France and Germany, and possibly a 3rd Frankish and a polish faction, should have their capitals in large inland regions without borders. That is, no troop movements(attacks...) can take place across their borders. These factions will own coastal regions from the start, but then can't aid these regions if attacked(...by vikings). Reasons for making it this way are:
1) To simulate the fact that Vassals were appointed to protect their land for the king, and that the King were often not able to help his Vassal if he was attacked. A good example of this is Normandy in 910.
2) Vikings relied totally on their ships when expanding, attacking only regions accessible from the sea. In mainland Europe they, with few exceptions, didn't engage in large scale war. For this reason I don't think a Viking faction player should be able to conquer central inland regions, except as historically in Eastern Europe/Baltics and England.
3) The borderless capital regions serve as safe havens for the Frankish factions. In other words, they won't get wiped out easily(historically they were there throughout the whole of our timeframe) and can provide financial backing for the coastal regions, making them harder to take.

If we decide to follow this plan, we get a few more regions along the coast, like one for Staraya Ladoga(spelling?) which I've often seen mentioned as one of the important towns for vikings. We can for example merge HESSE, TURINGIA and LUSATIA-MESSEN, and maybe also ILE DE FRANCE and CHAMPAGNE. If you guys don't like this plan though, I won't be stubborn about it.

Keep in mind that the number of regions in England, Ireland and Scandinavia is not definitely set either. We must make a plan for each of them(Ireland and England left) and then review them all as one map, before we make any final decisions.

We must also discuss the Idea about using sea-regions as rivers inland. If we can make it work technically, the only drawback I can see about it is that these will be usable for all factions. But then again the Vikings will be the only factions with early access to ships.

BTW, I have just started on making the tech-tree file, and have some ideas when it comes to castles. It needs testing first though, and we should concentrate our efforts on finishing the map first.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Yes, it's one and the same province.

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Well in that case it would be good idea to simply add the smaller part to Curonia, otherwise it just feels strange to me.


About making Frankish nations stronger, there should be some way to represent the income they get from out of the map areas.

Welcome aboard gang - my fellow dev teamsters ;)

What I´d like at this stage, as Norse pointed out, is a bit more flexibel and loosly formed discussion on provinces and factions. We have to weigh province against province, region against region in the end anyway and the more facts and intel we gather until that point in time is crucial to the final decision. As Norse mentioned he´s pretty much occupied for another 1 1/2 month. That´s why I´m trying out so many different solutions to the strat map, since I don´t feel pressured to produce the final one yesterday. In the end I´m gonna give you all a couple of option to choose from.

I didn´t want to spam the whole thread by answering and quoting you each so from the top of my head here´s my thoughts.

*Regarding adding a prov in France I feel it´s a good idea.
*Taking away important Polish/ German and French provinces to be able to place more petty provs in the Baltics isn´t a sound idea.
*The Staraya-Ladoga/ Novgorod conflict is really not a prob since there will be ample of space to place them both. Take a look at my map on page 5 in this thread and you´ll see I´m right. S.L was hugely important in the viking-world so I belive it´s a must to present that region correctly.
*Regarding the divided-prov in the bay of Riga I think it´s better to let it stretch around the bay, If we decide to keep it. I know that the correct historical representation was on both sides of the bay but as EC said earlier on other prov conflicts in time, it´s a compromize.
*Regarding 6 Russian provs I think, if you take a look at the map on p5, should be more like 8 since I (personally) would like to fit Kiev into the lower south-east corner.
*Regarding unconquarable inland-provs I concur with Norse for the reason that this wasn´t meant to be a domination type of mod - just a more accurate presentation of the viking era. On the other hand EC has a point: What If....
That´s also an important aspect of the very reason we play this great game, right? I think we should think this Q over. What we´d really like to se in the mod and how to go about making it so.

Anyway, if you guys like to use the official FotN avatar as your sig when posting on the forum I´ll PM you the link to it.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 23 2004,02:32)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I also made some flags already, will post a link later.
here
Well, only three now, but that's better that nothing. I have difficulty finding what should be the flags for Baltic peoples (I only have flag for Lithuanians).

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Great work EC
Norse has made a huge amount of Norvegian shields that looks very promising. The main problem is that very few records, if none, have been found from the timeframe of the mod. What we can do is to improvise with the following guidelines.

1. The dominating families usually had some banner, crest or symbol even if it´s from a later era we can still use it.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexflags/sweden.html

2. It´s common that different regions within a country has a banner or province crest. This can also be used.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexfla...nic_order.html

3. Take a look at each country´s arm. Ex. Sweden has many different symbols like three crowns from one family, a wheat bundle from another, lions from yet another family etc etc. Each of theese symbols derives from significant families and we can improvise from that.
http://www.ngw.nl/

So do feel free to improvise and please do post thoughts suggestions etc in this thread or PM Norse if you have personal Q´s.

Faction shields and colours

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Norse has made a huge amount of Norvegian shields that looks very promising.

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Just to set the record strait, I didn't make them, and they are only simple gif images of Norwegian regional shields. I think they can serve us well as inspiration, because many of them use the same type of symbols that Vikings are believed to have used; animals/plants familiar to them from their homelands and simple geometric figures inspired by nature, like the sun, waves etc.

I have found two symbols that apparantly is known to have been used:
1) The black crow(obviously) seems to have been a common battleflag
2) The Norse faction that eventually united Norway is believed to have used a yellow ring on red. These colours lead to the colours on the royal Coat of Arms from 1100; a yellow lion on red.

I'll send you the gifs if you're interested EC.

PseR, how about using some of these for the Swedish factions as well? IMO most of those regional shields of Sweden looks too modern, more like 13-1400 knightly Coat of Arms. Among the gifs there is for instance a couple of bear symbols. I thought maybe one of them could suit a swedish faction well. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
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I also made some flags already, will post a link later.

here

Well, only three now, but that's better that nothing.

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EC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif , those flags look really great, but before you make more I think maybe we all should have a serious discussion on what factions actually should be in the mod and what colours they will have. Then we won't risk doing things twice.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
I also don't know whether to make new flag for the Germans (black eagle on yellow background, and not like it is in MTW - the other way round),

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Problem is already solved http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif Re Berengarion made new factionshields for HRE in his Millenium Mod: Black eagle on Yellow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Following all this work guys i think you do great so far,keep it up...

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Hmm... There is very little I can do to help you with any historical finnish flags/emblems, but I have a few ideas which are at least possible.

The Karelian emblem:
A figure of a goddess found in several caves in rock paintings around Karelia:
http://www.nba.fi/NATMUS/MUSEUM/Opetus/kalliom2.gif

The Häme flag/emblem:
The bear and the Elk were very important animals and there was a bear cult still alive in the beginning of the last century. So may be a simple, black on white bear paw would be good for the Häme faction.

Varsinaissuomi:
Some simple form/symbol of a boat, with or without sail (if with sail, very similar to viking ships), since trade was very important, and contacts to the west and Åland/Ahvenanmaa were quite strong, esp. Åland. (potential province? certainly important trade-wise).

graphist looking for job atm if you need any help

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ April 23 2004,12:25)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] PseR, how about using some of these for the Swedish factions as well? IMO most of those regional shields of Sweden looks too modern, more like 13-1400 knightly Coat of Arms. Among the gifs there is for instance a couple of bear symbols. I thought maybe one of them could suit a swedish faction well. Just my opinion.

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Well, the three major families that I think we should use as factions (Västgötar, Östgötar and Upsvear or Svear) in the mod had banners/ crests that I know how they looked in the 11th and 12th century but having a darn hard time finding pre-existing ones on the net.

Take a look at this link as an example:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexflags/sweden.html

The banner of Sweden contains three lions, representing three kingdoms. Thoose three kingdoms where the ones mentioned above.
Take a look at The House of Folkunga (Östgötar). It contains one of the lions and the colors are blue, yellow and white. The very same colors used by king Canut in the 12th century since he derived from the Folkunga dynasty. This is how I try to narrow down the possibilities of a crest containing this or that color, this or that symbol etc to reach a point where I can say that theese colors are likely to have been representing this faction. This way we get a palette of colors and/ or symbols for a faction/ family that we can create a shield from. Long explanation but you understand how I´m thinking heh?

Norse, back to your proposition. I´ve actually gone through the shields with that exact goal in mind. It still amazes me how we think alike :D

I don´t know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif
Oak tree maybe, totally fictional, but it was a holy tree for ancient Estonians.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 24 2004,18:33)]I don´t know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif
Oak tree maybe, totally fictional, but it was a holy tree for ancient Estonians.

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Your guess is probably better than ours Trax. I think your cult-idea is sound and probable. What shield where used later on by the Estonians? Could you extract something from there? Like colors, symbols etc.

Latest faction update:

* 3 Norwegian
* 3 Swedish
* 2 Danish
* 6 English
* 2 Irish (if possible)
* West Franks
* Dutch Dutchy, would be nice to have something more in this area than just the Franks.
* East Franks
* 2 additional German tribes
* Polish
* Russians plus a number of petty states more or less under Russian rule at some point. Q: make them kingdoms or just specified rebels?
*Finns
*Estonians
*Lettland/ Livonian/ Lithuanian representation not settled but I belive the info we got on theese are the info in the thread. This adds up to 28 so we only have room for a couple of more facs in the Baltic/ Russian area.

The big X right now IMO is; How to divide the area around Russia, Lettland, Livonia and Lithuania? Trax and Wilpurri´s research on this has proven unvaluable this far and some more research on early Russian city states still needs to be done before we can pin down this area defenitely. Any more suggestions or thoughts?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 25 2004,16:04)]Well, I think, how about to merge Samogitia with Lithuania and Rugen with Veletia maybe? Then there could be Staraya Ladoga and something else.

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I think that Rugen was an important stronghold and it would be great to keep it and I don´t feel that it would be proper to merge Samo with Lith either. In the end we might have to steal a prov or two from elsewhere like England. I´m really beginning to realize that a 40-45 province England is quite unrealistic. Originally we just wanted to keep all the original provs from VI but it seems that it won´t be doable in the long run.

Where can I see these?

EDIT: About the division into cultures, I feel that The Baltic + Russian states could be one culture, Then British + Central European Catholics could be one culture and the vikings could form the third culture.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 01 2004,05:32)]1. According to the list above, the map is the most important thing that first needs to be done. If so, I think someone should draw the provinces of Great Britain, and then we could put all the regions together, discuss them all once more, and start making the campmap. Obviously, sea regions have to be done as well. Then having the map done, we could move further to step 2 (from the list above) and get the things going.

2. I have made some more flags for:
- The Franks (Charlemagne)
- The Normans (following the pattern of the banner of Duke William of Normandy a.k.a. William the Conqueror)
- The Germans/HRE (black eagle on yellow background)
- The Hame
- The Karelians
- The Suomi
- The Estonians
- The Lotharingians
(Can post a link to pics if anyone's interested.)

3. Soon I'll start making other shields/flag images.

4. Going back to Scandinavian factions once again, I'd like to know what were their names (it'd be easier to find some suitable symbols for them). What I know now is that the three Swedish factions are (if not, somebody please correct me):
- The House of Erik
- The House of Sverker (Svea faction?)
- The House of Folkunga (Gotland faction?)

5. I have no idea what should be the names for Danish, and Norwegian factions.

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1. As I told you before I´m making the map and it will be finished in due time. In order to fit as many regions into England, close to the ones used in VI, I´m currently enlarging certain parts of England. The problem is, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that we have to tilt the map some 15 degrees and stretch it around 25-30%. This makes the map look wrong. This is the main reason why I´m still working on it. As you know Norse will be very occupied with his degree for another 4-5 weeks and I don´t have unlimited time to do this faster than I´m doing at the moment, sorry.
Just be patient.

2. Ofcourse we´d like to see them ;)

3. Great

4. I don´t think we should focus on families but rather regions in Sweden since there where three main regions represented by different families within each region for the powerstruggle from time to time as yo can see from the kings-list below. The three different factions should be: Västgötar, Östgötar and Svear.

Kingdom of Uppsala, from roughly the 8th century on...
Sigurd
Ragnar Lodbrok................................. ? -794
Bjorn I Ironside...............................794-804
Eric Bjornsson.................................804-808
Eric Raefillsson...............................808-815
Bjorn II....................................c. 829-c. 845
Anund..........................................fl. c. 845
Olaf...........................................fl. c. 850
Eric Emundsson, Weather-Hat.................... ? -882
Ring...........................................fl. c. 936
Eric...........................................fl. c. 950?
Emund I........................................ ? -c. 970
Kingdom of Sweden from about this time...
Eric VIII the Victorious....................c. 970-994
Olaf Skottkonung...............................994-1023
Anund Jacob...................................1023-1050
Emund II the Old..............................1050-1060

STENKIL FAMILY
Stenkil.......................................1060-1066
Eric Stenkilsson..............................1066-1067
Eric..........................................1066-1067
Halstan.......................................1067-c.1070
Anund (Usurper, Yngling dynasty)................c. 1070
Haakon the Red (Usurper, unknown dynasty)..c. 1070-1079
Inge I the Elder..............................1079-1084
Halstan (restored)............................1079-1084

SVENDING (Sverker hereafter)
Blood-Sven....................................1084-1087

STENKIL
Inge I the Elder (restored)...................1087-1110
Erik Årsäll...................................1087-1088
Philip........................................1110-1118
Inge II the Younger...........................1110-1125

KNAPHOVDE
Ragnvald (in the north).......................1125-1126

SKIOLDING
Magnus Nielssen, the Strong (in the west).....1125-1134

SVERKER
Sverker I the Elder (in the east, then all)...1125-1156

JEDWAERDING (Erik hereafter)
Eric IX Jedwaerdsson, the Saint...............1150-1160

SKIOLDUNG
Magnus Henriksson.............................1160-1161

SVERKER
Charles I.....................................1161-1167
Kol...........................................1167-c.1170
Burislev......................................1167-c.1170

ERIK
Cnut I........................................1167-1196

SVERKER
Sverker II....................................1196-1208
ERIK
Eric X........................................1208-1216
John I........................................1216-1222
ERIK
Eric XI.......................................1222-1229

JOHANSSON
Cnut II.......................................1229-1234
ERIK
Eric XI (restored)............................1234-1250

FOLKUNGA
Waldemar......................................1250-1275
Magnus I......................................1275-1290
Birger........................................1290-1319
Magnus II.....................................1319-1363
Eric XII......................................1356-1359
Haakon........................................1362-1363

As you can see all fa,ilies you suggested are from later period and at the end of our mods time-frame. I´ve kings-list for each faction/ region from roughly 7-750 and onwards.

5.Norse has all the info on the Danish and Norwegian factions so feel free to drop him a mail.

Got some interesting stuff regarding the Lithuanians from Vikinghorde:

The lithuanians were pagans, even in late period. Jogaila accepted christianity in 1386 and christianity then finally came to Lithuania. Grand Duke Gediminas (1236-63) was allso a pagan who became christian, but did not convert the population. It was first when Jogaila became king of poland, that christianity came. You can read something here:

http://www.randburg.com/li/general/general_7.html
http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001....ry.html
http://www.scantours.com/lithuania_history.htm

Yesterday, on 1st of May, many nations including Estonia joined EU and they planted one million trees to comemorate this moment. The reporter said that it was an old tradition in Estonia that stretched back to the stone-age where tree-cults where common. It seems all through history the Estonians has had a special relationship to the trees. So, Trax, you we´re not so far from the truth with your tree theory. EC, nice work on thoose shields.

They look great, EC Well done