Printable View
Well I tried it but have to admit I am not convinced. Something is very wrong when 7 monks and 17 yari cav can route 43 naginata, 15 yari samurai and 17 nodachi. Two minutes later the same units and another 17 monks are routed by 19 monks!!!
........Orda
Orda,
If you are playing in SP custom battle, all bets are off because of the battlefield upgrades. Near the end of a battle, the unit characteristics can be very different from what they were when the battle started. Samurai Wars beta 5 is set up for valor 1 units at 8500 money which reduces the battlefield upgrades somewhat, but Samurai Wars beta 6 has +2 morale and 2x cost to all units so it plays at valor 0 at 10,000 money and this will increase the battlefield upgrade effect.
Even in MP which has no battlefield upgrades, the situation you describe can happen. I would expect the 7 monks and 17 yari cav to beat the 43 naginata, 15 yari samurai and 17 no-dachi. If the yari cav hit the no-dachi, they will rout them and the monks will rout the yari samurai. The naginata will then probably rout due to negative morale effects of seeing 2 friendly units rout and being flanked.
I would not expect 19 monks to beat 17 monks, 7 monks and 15 yari cav, but it could happen especially if the larger force was more fatigued. Even with equal fatigue the 17 monks would have to engage first, and then a flanking attack from the 15 yari cav before the 17 monks loose. Engaging in any other sequence will probably cause the larger force to loose because the 7 monks or the 15 yari cav wil loose to the 19 monks, and once again negative morale effects will impact the 17 monk unit. Also, the 19 monks will get a moral boost as soon as they rout a unit, and with small units whoever looses the first man or two is going to get a big negative morale effect because its magnitude is based on the percentage of casualties in a combat round.
Another possibility is for the 19 monks to go straight for the 17 monks. It's more risky, but it can work. If the 17 monks rout quickly which could happen due to statistical uncertainty in the individual combats, that would probably win it for the 19 monks. They would get a morale boost, and the 7 monks and 15 yari cav would get a morale penalty and possibly rout right away, and neither of those units is strong enough to beat the 19 monk unit anyway.
The morale level of Samurai Wars seems high enough to me based on watching MP replays. If you want higher morale you can play with more money, and buy equal valor for all the units.
Correction........
15 monks and 18 yari cav were engaged by 22 yari samurai, 21 nodachi and 44 naginata.
The numbers quoted above were as I saw them when the rout began.
It was MP at 10,000 koku on beta 6.
The 15 monks were hit frontally by the yari samurai and nodachi at the same time, the nodachi being faster than the yari's. The 18 yari cav then engaged but were simultaneously hit by 44 naginata. After some two to three seconds of h2h they routed ( after losing just one man ) the nodachi and yari samurai followed suit.
That cannot be right.
The monks should have done far less against the odds which were more than 2-1. Even the arrival of 18 cav should have made little or no difference since they were hit immediately by 44 naginata.
My 19 monks, later simply charged headlong into the three units described as I assumed all was lost
.....Orda
These are the numbers at the time of rout rather than at the time of engagement, but here is how they stack up. The monetary value of the 15 monks is 250. That's 15*(1000/60)=250. The monetary value of 22 yari sam is 73, and of 21 no-dachi is 87 which gives a total of 160. So, the 15 monks are worth more than those other two units combined. The monks are that good with 7 combat points compared to 3 for the no-dachi and 2 for the yari sam. Monks are 200% better than no-dachi and 250% better than yari sam in melee. Going by combat points, the monks are equivalent to 30 no-dachi and 37 yar sam, but actually 15 monks will probably beat 60 yari sam because of the morale difference. There is a -4 morale that kicks in at 80% decimation. That would be less than 12 men, but the monks haven't reached that point yet. All 3 units are going to be suffering the -8 morale penalry for 50% decimation, so the morale level is low which means other morale factors play a larger role than they did at the beginning of the battle. The no-dachi may appear to be relatively safe from rout, but they have very low defensive capability, and the monk has high offensive capability. For a monk striking at a no-dachi, chance to kill is 1.9% * 1.2 ** (5 - (-2)) = 6.8% which means the no-dachi will loose men fast and incur a morale penalty from those losses, the size of which I don't know, (It's related to the ratio of the number of men lost in a combat round compared to the number of men left in the unit.) which will add to the morale penalty they incur from the fact that they will be loosing to the monks. In contrast, the monks gain up to +6 morale bonus from the fact that they are winning the matchup.
Even if your idea is that the 22 yari sam and the 21 no-dachi shouldn't rout, they still can't beat the 15 monks in a straight up fight because they don't have enough combat power. The best you could hope for is that the 15 monks go for the yari sam which is in hold formation, and somehow the no-dachi can hit the monks in the flank before the yari sam rout. It's not very likely, and the monks aren't going to go for the yari sam unless the no-dachi are too far away to make that flanking attack.
The yari cav routing the larger naginata points up something that's different between MTW/VI and STW. In MTW/VI, units get a morale penalty of up to -8 for loosing and an additional morale penalty of -6 if it's loosing to cav. That's a possible -14 morale in a system where the rout point is -18. The intent of this was to give the cav an ability to rout infantry with it's charge, but failing that the cav would loose the melee. There is a -2 morale for 90% decimation which the 43 man naginata has, and a -3 morale for very tired which I would image the naginata also has near the end of a battle. The naginata start with 6 morale, and all those penalties add up to a possible -19 without the penalty for casualty ratio included. I've done straight up fights between 60 man yari cav charging 60 man naginata, and the yari cav loose eventhough the naginata is not an anti-cav unit. It's possible the naginata needs another +2 morale, and that's something to consider before Samurai Wars is brought up to v1.0. Also, yari sam might need +2 morale, but I don't think these decisions can be made only on how the units are performing at the end of a battle. Right now, the rock, paper, scissors is working better in Samurai Wars with the STW stats than it did in original STW.
The 19 monks beating 15 monks, 17 monks and 18 yari cav would not seem likely except morale is a big factor with small and possibly fatigued units. All you are going to have to do is rout one of those units, and, if the others are nearby, they could easliy run away. The 19 monks are capable of routing any one of those 3 units. STW was like this as well. If the morale were raised, the 19 monks wouldn't be able to win, but you would have a problem with units fighting too long in the first part of the battle. I don't see any solution for that since the morale penalties are not modable.
My recollection of STW was a naginata unit, though it was not capable of defeating monks, could at least hold for some time. This lot engaged, gave up and routed. There was no cav charge to consider, the cav had engaged the yari samurai and nodachi. At 800 koku the morale of the naginata was, or at least appeared to be, worse than either the yari samurai or nodachi, lesser units and far more depleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
I took 3 units of naginata in total and was very disappointed with their performance. So much so, I wonder what their role is. As an armoured unit they should be one of the least affected by missiles and their elite status should make them combat efficient but they seem reluctant to mix it with nodachi and monks cause an almost immediate rout. When backed by archers the Taisho and 4 nodachi reserves I expected them to at least hold for a while.
As it stands the monk appears to be a bit of an uber unit, whereas the naginata is a paper tiger ( IMO ) and only 200 koku less than monks
......Orda
If a 43 man naginata routed after loosing 1 man, there must be some additional situational factors affecting its morale. Without other morale factors, that unit wouldn't rout from the loss of 1 man.
In a Samurai Wars custom battle test, the warrior monk beats naginata in 70 to 75 seconds. The monk will typically loose 20 to 25 men while killing 40 to 45 at which point the naginata routs. In STW v1.12, this matchup is about the same, but I intend to conduct some online tests to see how close it is.
In Samurai Wars custom battle test, the yari cav is equal to the naginata. They are both down to 30 men in about 90 seconds, and are down to about 10 men at the 180 second mark. Either unit can win. This is about the same in STW v1.12, but I'll do some further online tests on this matchup as well just to make sure.
Samurai Wars beta 7 has been posted. Based on online battles and feedback, there are several adjustments:
1. Costs are all raised by a factor of 2, and morale raised by +2 on all units so it plays at 10k money with valor 0 units. This effectively makes ranged units such as teppo more expensive since they can't be used at lower valor than melee units.
2. Yari Samurai and yari ashigaru have their morale increased by +2. This will make them fight longer. They had a tendency to rout too soon in previous versions since you play without upgrades.
3. Naginata walk speed has been increased from 4 to 6 to lessen their fatigue and resultant loss of morale and fighting ability. They now walk at the same speed as yari samurai.
4. Naginata maximum turning rate has been increased to be the same as the other infantry types, so they should be very slightly better in melee combat.
5. Charge speed of infantry is now run speed + 2. The cavalry and special infantry unit types already had this.
I need some help plz. Ive downloaded the stw mod, I run it and it goes to a folder of its own,how do I get the thing into the right folder in VI? Or explain how I make it work plz.
This is looking good...I may have to get VI. How often is this mod played online?
lahll,
If you downloaded the 70 MB version of STWmod, that's a zip file, and, if you extracted the files to your main game folder and you are running WinXP, the files will go to a new folder created by WinXP under your main game folder. To recover from that navigate to that new folder with file explorer, select all teh files and folders in that folder and cut and paste it to the next folder up which is your main game folder. If the unzip went somewhere else ti it's own folder, do the same thing: cut and paste it all to your main game folder.
If you downloaded the 40 MB Samurai Wars Installer that CBR made, it should find your main MTW/VI game folder. I think you have an option during the install to manually enter a folder name if you notice that the installer hasn't found your main MTW/VI folder. The main MTW/VI folder is the one containing the Medieval_TW.exe file.
The current version of the Samurai Wars stat is 7b, and is contained in the Samurai Wars Installer. There will be a Samurai Wars 8b released today or tomorrow. This is a small zip file, and the best way to install it is to unzip to a temporary folder and then copy the contents of that folder to your main MTW/VI folder and overwrite when prompted.
Sasaki Kojiro,
I think more players are trying this recently. Orda reported seeing 2v2's and a 3v3 game using it this week. I haven't been able to promote Samurai Wars in the foyer as much as I wanted over the last several weeks, but we have been online with it a few times each week and each time new players install it and we play some games. We've been able to get two 4v4 games played with it last week. Everyone who has tried it so far has liked the gameplay. As tiime goes on more and more players are installing it, but ultimately the quality of the RTW patch is going to have an impact on how many players move on to RTW or stick around and play MTW/VI. However, I don't think the quality of the gameplay in RTW in terms of balance will ever approach that of Samurai Wars, and I'm not saying that just because I worked on Samurai Wars. Players are able to successfully use more combinations of unit types in Samurai Wars with its 14 unit type than they can in MTW/VI with its 100 unit types.
The gameplay of Samurai Wars approaches that of STW v1.12 with some slight differences since cav is naturally better in the MTW/VI engine, and this mod plays without upgrades which preserves the RPS. There is a gun type that is 50% stronger than the musket in STW v1.12, but this only about half as strong as the musket in WE/MI v1.02, and the NC and HC cav types can charge home on these guns so they have to be protected. We did try settnig the mod up for valor 1 units and allowing the honor sell back, but some of the old balance problems such as too many cheap guns showed themselves.
Samurai Wars 8b has three multiplayer cost adjustments (unit prices are 2x original STW costs). SA changed from 500 to 400, CA from 800 to 700 and the hatamoto from 500 to 400. Recent tests showed these units were underutilized. This new price is more in line with the honor 1 cost at which the SA and CA units were found to be useful in STW v1.12. CA was actually often used at honor 0, and has 10% more speed and 25% more accuracy than it had in STW v1.12 as compensation. Both of these units retain the combat and morale of the honor 2 STW v1.12 unit. SA armor was increased from 1 to 2 to maintain the CA/SA balance in a shootout in view of the CA's improved accuracy. This has virtually no affect on the SA/teppo balance,but will increase survivability in an SA/SA shootout. The ninja's star weapon range has been increased from 65 meters to 75 meters, but this unit needs to be more fully evaluated. The 8b also removes the kensai from multiplayer because we haven't been able to balance the unit in view of the fact that it gets 6 lives as the general. The hatamoto has been moved to the first position in the cavalry selection sceeen to indicate that it's primarily intended to be used as the general. This is still a beta and these new changes have to be thoroughly tested in multiplayer battles, but it's getting close to final now with these fine tuning adjustments. Overall gameplay and routing effects look good.
Awesome! Sounds like a good enough turnout to me, I'm used to shogun server after all. I'll pick up vi in a couple weeks when my arm heals enough to use a mouseQuote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
The cost of CA and the resulting lack of them on the battlefield was noticeable and the reduction in their cost is a smart move and one that will improve the gameplay even further, I am sure. The same could be said for SA who were also being 'left back in the barracks' due to Teppo being 200 koku less per unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
I immediately noticed the improvement to Naginata and I think they are now the 'real deal' Naginata of original STW ( brilliant!! )
I also played about a bit with armies and was pleasantly surprised with the choice available, even the lowly Ashigaru have a place, which is great to see.
So glad to see you have decided to cast out the Kensai. I can live with a small unit of Ninja as they added something to the game but Kensai ruined it IMO. The Hattamoto cav fits in nicely.
I look forward to trying out 8b.
......Orda
Ok, I got it installed, how-ever when I try to start a champaign it crashes to desk-top.
lahll,
You used the Samurai War Installer? I'll try it, but it works for CBR. Maybe another installed mod is interfering.
Here is a summary of all the changes in Samurai Wars 08b.
Samurai Wars 8b has three multiplayer cost adjustments (unit prices are 2x original STW costs). SA changed from 500 to 400, CA from 800 to 700 and the hatamoto from 500 to 400. Recent tests showed these units were underutilized. This new price is more in line with the honor 1 cost at which the SA and CA units were found to be useful in STW v1.12. CA was actually often used at honor 0, and has 10% more speed and 25% more accuracy than it had in STW v1.12 as compensation. Both of these units retain the combat and morale of the honor 2 STW v1.12 unit. SA armor was increased from 1 to 2 to maintain the CA/SA balance in a shootout in view of the CA's improved accuracy. This has virtually no affect on the SA/teppo balance, but will increase survivability in an SA/SA shootout. The ninja's star weapon range has been increased from 65 meters to 75 meters, but this unit needs to be more fully evaluated. The 8b also removes the kensai from multiplayer because we haven't been able to balance the unit in view of the fact that it gets 6 lives as the general. The hatamoto has been moved to the first position in the cavalry selection sceeen to indicate that it's primarily intended to be used as the general. This is still a beta and these new changes have to be thoroughly tested in multiplayer battles, but it's getting close to final now with these fine tuning adjustments.
STWmod does not work with non-english versions of MTW/VI. There was a set of italian language files produced, but they have to be updated. A set of files for each language could be produced and made available as patches to STWmod. They would have to be updated if Barocca does additional work on the unfinished names in STWmod. Alioven has offered to make the spanish language files. Right now I don't know the details on which files have to be translated.
There has been some feedback on Samurai Wars that certain ranged unis have too low morale. The units have the same morale level as honor 2 units in STW v1.12. The two spear units, YA and YS, did get +2 morale over STW v1.12 since they have to engage in melee and were breaking too soon. The Japanese teppo is 50% more effective in firepower, and this may be why the lower morale units seem more fragile, but 1 on 1 a 60 man cav archer can charge and kill a 60 man Japanese teppo in 3 ranks loosing about 16 men to 2 volleys. In a battle situation, there are also more complicated morale penalties such as being outnumbered that come into play, but we've seen players get over100 kills with a cav archer in battles on large maps before their accuracy was increased and cost lowered in version 08b. Average kills in team games are about 600+ with 960 man armies which is a lot of attrition, and an indication that overall morale is ok. We see ranged units routing when they get caught by cav or used too aggressively. Right now I'd like to get more feedback before raising morale on the low morale units.
I haven't played the mod extensively (not even remotely heh) but the 600+ kills you mention , do include kills and captures. In the few 2v2 and 3v3 I've played, I could place the kills more closely to the 400-550 range, with the higher end being reached when the game is following a slower pace. I suppose the difference between the morale in 10k VI and 10 sw is quite evident, some easy routing indeed, very hard to skirmish guns , although very easy for them to rout at times, even if no actual contact with enemy is made (ofcourse many factors come into play as you mentioned).Quote:
Average kills in team games are about 600+ with 960 man armies which is a lot of attrition, and an indication that overall morale is ok.
I did an italian localization for Barocca's STW beta 5 mod. I probably still have it. If some txt will change in this mod, tell me and I'll update the italian LOC files with the new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tera
Send me txts to vinsitor@yahoo.it
Good work M8!!!
I did it. I'll update all the old files and do the missing ones. Send me all on my mail :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
IMP!!! Glad to see you again M8! ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by ELITEofIMPERATOR
Our old forum was moved, the new one is un my sign (there is also the old alliance section).
Many of us are inactive with Rome and waiting for the patch, but we'll be glad to meet you on the STW-mod's battlefield, just like in the past ally!!! ~:grouphug:
RUHM UND EHRE ELITES!!!
That would be great Vinsitor! I've asked barocca to forward the files.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinsitor
my 1st impressions are very good :bow:
great job mizu.
A+ for the modders.
i am going to clean my armour and get back on my horse :charge:
rome was a sad episode for me. :dizzy2:
But i finally get to play shogun so life is all good again ~:cheers: thanks
Hi Puzz3D,
thanx for the great effort you put into this. It's appreciated very much.
Is barocca's model-pack (including the temples & castles) already available for the community? If so, where?
About the different languages, I posted this months ago in one of baroccas STWMod threads but couldn't find it. When you have a different language version than english it should be safe to copy and paste all files from the \loc\english folder into \loc\yourlanguage folder, thereby overwriting the original files of that folder. The result is a language-mixture between english and yourlanguage. Everything that was changed is in English, the rest in yourlanguage.
:bow:
R'as
I think all 3 language versions are being worked on now.
Barocca's model pack isnt available yet as it needed some changes to work online with players who doesnt have the model pack installed (would cause desync in online battles) Yuuki knows more about that.
CBR
Thx LuminusSun and Ra's. I have to say that LongJohn of CA did a vey
fine job of balancing original STW which Samurai Wars closely follows,
and Barocca did the massive work of making the STWmod for MTW/VI. CBR,
Krypta and Mitch put a lot of effort into developing the Samurai Wars
stat as well, and Krypta did a lot of the STW map conversions. Tosa has
made a conversion utility to bring the sounds and music from STW into
STWmod which enhances the atmosphere while playing. Barocca has made an
excellent Japanese model pack for the maps, but I have to investigate a
problem which makes it incompatible with regular MTW/VI maps.
There will be a Samurai Wars 09b, but I'd like to pick up the remaining
unit morale issues before releasing it. One thing that seems certain is
that YA will get +2 morale. Player feedback on other units that might
need adjustment is welcome, and I'd like to see replays demonstrating
the problem if possible.
One thing I'd like to point out is that YC is not a good unit to charge
guns. It's a very effective unit when used to flank or to counter other
cavalry. The NC is much more effective charging into guns, but the NC
requires protection from enemy YC. Since you don't use upgrades with
Samurai Wars at 10k and can't pump a YC to higher morale, a choice has
to be made between YC and NC depending on your battle plan. An NC + YC
would be a flexible cav combo whereas an NC + NC combo or a YC + YC
combo would emphasize either direct or indirect tactics respectiveley.
Samurai Wars gives up fexibility in tailoring units with upgrades to
gain more stable unit balance. If you really want to play with
upgrades, you can play with more than 10k, but it might be good to limit
them to weapon and armor only. The valor upgrade is extremely
expensive anyway at 70% of these relatively high base costs.
Thank you Barocca, Yuuki, CBR, Mitch, and Krypta.
I got into STW because of my infatuation with all things Japanese, and moved into MTW because Shoggie pretty much went into a coma online and I could only conquer Japan so many times before it became routine.
You have breathed new life into one of my favorite pastimes, and the whole community should applaud this incredible effort.
My wife never got online, and never cared for Medieval, but when she saw the campaign mod we started to fight over the computer, something that hasn't happend for a long time. I think I may have to buy her a computer just for her STW/VI campaigns.
It seems to work perfectly, its pretty, SP AND MP, many new factions, easy to install, doesn't seem to conflict with VI. Pretty much a perfect score. The American judge gives it a 10.0.
I've always had a lot of respect for you guys, but this raises you up even higher.
And it has brought some old vets back who were missing from the VI lobby, not to mention that several clans that have been, well, lets say clans that had issues with one another, they seem to have come together to support this.
Outstanding.
I look forward to the online fighting and to the new experiences in the campaign mode.
Thanks
ichi
ps I think the only way I might be able to help is if you need any maps. Let me know if you need anything like that, or maybe beta-testing the next version.
If you need any help in seeing how chain routs work, let me know. I always seem to manage a really big one! :) I just wish I was on at the time you guys play. Darn new work shift is keeping me away from you! ;(
I have install the STW mod(download all the stuff from Yuuki's sig), change the missiles stats, but still have incorrect version. Any clues ?
Well you can start checking if its properly installed. Do you see a new era to pick from when either hosting or setting up a custom battle? Do you have version conflict with regular games too when you have swapped to stwmod stats?
CBR
I didnt tried hosting, and i have version conflict with regular games too ....
I guess i 'll reinstall the whole stuff, again ...
What should i install ? just to be sure
Hm ok that means statswapping is working. So either outdated stats or the main installer didnt install into the right place. Please do check in either custom battle or in MP if you actually have the new stw era to pick from.
CBR