Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
As far as carthaginian citizen infantry goes, it was always of low quality.
Why so? Links? If you read Polybius you'll find that they excelled in the 2 campaigns I mentioned earlier. In more detail,
Against the romans, in that battle of the 1st punic war, they stood their own and got nearly 0 casualties:
"those [romans] who had managed to force a passage through the elephants and collect in the rear of those beasts, encounted the Carthaginian phalanx quite fresh and in good order and were cut to pieces.
It resulted that in this battle the Carthaginians lost about eight hundred of the mercenaries, who had faced the Roman left wing, while of the Romans there were saved but about two thousand"
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olybius/1*.html
While in the campaign against the rebellion of Mercs + moreLybians +Numidians, they fought greatly... mercs who were no n00bs at all:
"Some of these [mercenary] troops were Iberians, some Celts, some Ligurians, and some from the Balearic islands; there were a good many Greek half-breeds, mostly deserters and slaves, but the largest portion consisted of Libyans.
...
being convinced in their arrogance, owing to their success in Sicily against the Roman legions, that not only the Carthaginians, but any other people in the world would not readily face them in arms.
...
Mathos [Lybian rebel general], having so far carried out his purpose, at once sent envoys to the Libyan towns urging them to strike a blow for liberty and imploring their support and practical assistance. Nearly all the Libyans had agreed to join in the revolt against Carthage and willingly contributed troops and supplies.
...
The Carthaginians, in consequence, seeing that he [Hanno] was mismanaging matters, again appointed Hamilcar Barca to the command and dispatched him to the war on hand, giving him seventy elephants, all the additional mercenaries they had been able to collect, and the deserters from the enemy, besides their burgher forces, horse and foot, so that in all he had about ten thousand men.
...
Spendius [roman rebel gen], on learning what had happened, put his two forces in movement to meet in the plain and render mutual assistance to each other, those from the town near the bridge being not less than ten thousand in number and those from Utica over fifteen thousand. When they got in sight of each other, thinking that they had caught the Carthaginians in a trap between them, they exhorted each other with loud shouts and engaged the enemy...About six thousand Libyans and mercenaries fell and nearly two thousand were made prisoners.
...
He [Hamilcar] next traversed the rest of the country, winning over some towns and taking others by assault.
...
Spendius, after effecting a junction with the Libyans, descended into the plain and attacked the Carthaginians. The battle was a stubborn one, but ended in the victory of Hamilcar. Autaritus and Spendius escaped, but with the loss of about ten thousand killed and four thousand prisoners.
...
A short time afterwards, collecting a picked force of mercenaries and Libyans to the number of about fifty thousand and including Zarzas the Libyan and those under his command, tried again their former plan of marching in the open parallel to the enemy and keeping a watch on Hamilcar...Autaritus, Zarzas and Spendius decided to give themselves up to the enemy and discuss terms with Hamilcar [after he outmanouvered and trapped them]... The Libyans, when they learnt of their officers' arrest, thought they had been betrayed, as they were ignorant of the treaty, and rushed to arms, but Hamilcar, surrounding them (more than forty thousand) with his elephants and the rest of his forces, cut them all to pieces. This occurred near the place called the Saw; it got this name from its resemblance to the tool so called.
...[the Lybians were still more and were sieging Carthage, when Hamilcar arrived to besiege the besieged]
They appointed a committee of thirty senators and dispatched them to Hamilcar accompanied by Hanno, the general who had previously retired from command, but now resumed it, and by all their remaining citizens of military age, whom they had armed as a sort of forlorn hope...When they were each ready to attack, they drew up their armies confronting each other and at a preconcerted signal closed. The Carthaginians gained the victory, most of the Libyans falling in the battle, while the rest escaped to a certain city and soon afterwards surrendered, but Mathos himself was taken by the enemy."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olybius/1*.html
As you see urnamma, carthaginian citizens fought exemplarly against an OVERWHELMING outnumbering enemy who, according to Polybius, numbered up to 100.000 in total.... Hamilcar had 10.000 to start, many among them exactly 'mere' carthaginian citizens. And no, I'm not talking of the 'Sacred Band' units who were highly trained in academy-religious temples (thus also highly moralised), with the best weapons-armour available and suposedly extinct by these times ... or were they?
