America's irreplaceable ally

Nope you didnt post them as quotes from Truman at first but they appeared to be your own.
:book:
So are those the words of someone with a hatred of Jews
just to finish some of his quotes ... "let them all go to hell."
Or are you adding faulty eyesight to your faulty memory ?

Id like to see that statement in context.
Which one, one of them , which you describe as silly , he used several times in different situations .
I'll tell you what , if you type in Truman into your search engine you may find some information , I think there may be one or two sites on him as I believe he may have been slightly well known for some reason or other .
Or you could go to the bookstore and buy one of the many biographies that have been written .

Pakistan
Uzbekistan
Tajikistan
Afghanistan
Kyrgyzstan
Oman
Saudi-Arabia
Kuwait
Quatar
Bahrain
Egypt
Turkey

Of all these nations the only one that is reliable is Turkey. Yes I know the Americans didn't get to use the air bases during the Iraqi war but the cause was dodgy and under the false colours of an anti-terrorist crusade.

You lied, threatened, bullied and bribed nations and the reaction from your friends and allies was a hostile one. You seem to think that if you lay enough money on the table that you can buy friends. It doesn't work that way. Yes some nations will take your money and do your bidding because that's what mercenaries do!

If things got bad Turkey is the only one on that list who would be there as would Isreal.

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If things got bad Turkey is the only one on that list who would be there as would Isreal.

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Yea right. Turkey is just as much a fair weather friend as France.

Do you honestly believe that if there was any doubt about the outcome of a war that Turkey would really help the US?

Israel, Britain, Japan, and maybe Australia are our only true allies. Everyone else in the world would love to stab us in the back as the rest of the world has never really liked America. Sure they'll take our money and lives when their backs are to the walls, but I cannot honestly see France or Germany helping America in a time of need without significant financial persuasion.


Unfortunately Americans are very naive about our position in the world. They seem to forget that the majority of their ancestors are over here because Europe, Asia or South America didnt want them. They think that because the US helped in the World Wars and fought Communism in the cold war the rest of the world loves them - not true. There has always been a deep seeded resentment toward American prosperity.

This country took the rest of the worlds "trash" and turned it into a powerhouse like none before it, to the dismay of many.

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Originally Posted by caesar44

about the hatred -
in a single day there are hundreds of people who get killed by dictators (including arab dictators and palestinians against palestinians) and you beirut took the most convenient case - blame the jew !!! blame israel !!!

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I disagree. I did not take the most convenient case at all. I took the most difficult case. A case that has seen an entire people, the Palestinians, reduced to a less-than-human abberation, seen only as a death statistic on the news, a people who's supporters are yelled at, blacklisted, and decried as Jew hating anti-Semites, as "worse than Hitler", as supporters of terrorism, simply for supporting the human rights of the Palestinian people. There is not one other group of oppressed people on Earth who's supporters are instantly cited as being evil simply for supporting their right to live.

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Originally Posted by caesar44

no it is not interesting to blame englishmen about their doing in north ireland or to blame the turks about the kurds or to blame the chinese about tibet or to blame the syrians about the sunni or to blame russia about the chechenians (whatever) or or or or

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If you would care to start a thread concerning those matters I will be delighted to assist you in condemning all forms of oppression. Hell, I was supporting the Irish back when Bobby Sands was on a hunger strike in the Maze prison. I always support Tibet freedom at every opportunity, and I personally attacked the Soviet consulate in Montreal ~:cheers: with my friends, causing one hell of a mess and ruckus, after the Soviets shot down the Korean airliner. There were only five of us and at least a dozen cops showed up with siren's screaming. They freaked when they saw the mess we made of the place.

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Originally Posted by caesar44

now not one word about 1,200 jews who were murdered by the palestinians in the last 3 years - if not hatred then what is it ~:confused:

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You are more than welcome to peruse my previous posts and you will see many instances where I have not only condemned the Palestinians for targeting Israeli civilians (soldiers are fair game) but have also supported Israel's right to go after them and kill them.

You have cited me as taking the easy road by blaming Israel for its actions, perhaps you might focus on those who take the easier road and support Israel regardless of the transgression.

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I disagree. I did not take the most convenient case at all. I took the most difficult case. A case that has seen an entire people, the Palestinians, reduced to a less-than-human abberation, seen only as a death statistic on the news,

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BS. We are constantly shown pictures of wounded Palestinian children or Israeli tanks rolling through a Palestinian town with kids throwing rocks at them. I dont know of anyone who thinks of Palestinians as you have described. Now ill led and maybe a little stupid as a people . Thats another story.

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There is not one other group of oppressed people on Earth who's supporters are instantly cited as being evil simply for supporting their right to live.

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So the Plaestinans are called evil because they support their right to live or is it because they believe its their their right even their duty to murder Jews?

PJ, I might consider adding Japan to my list, it's hard to say as they have no standing army, so it's hard to say what they'd do with it.

But you can't leave Canada off. I made that mistake, and it was unfair. They may not have supported us in Iraq, but we've come too far, fought too many battles together, to just write them off as a fair weather friend.

I may have been a little harsh in my use of the term 'fair weather friend' to describe other NATO members last night, and you might be too, but I think the 'ally' days are surely over. More akin to 'friendly rivals'.

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But you can't leave Canada off. I made that mistake, and it was unfair. They may not have supported us in Iraq, but we've come too far, fought too many battles together, to just write them off as a fair weather friend.

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And lets face it, they dont have very much fair weather up there. ~D

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Israel, Britain, Japan, and maybe Australia are our only true allies. Everyone else in the world would love to stab us in the back as the rest of the world has never really liked America.

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There are not sufficient adjectives in the English language to describe the many levels at which that statement is not only blisteringly wrong, blatantly wrong, historicaly wrong, but just simply... wrong.

Never mind WWI, where we showed up three years before you. Never mind WWII where we showed up two years before you. Never mind Korea where we fought side by side. Never mind the day after 9/11 when thousands of stranded Americans were welcomed in Canadian's homes and treated like family. Never mind the incredible sympathy and empathy we felt for you after 9/11. Never mind the memorial gatherings across our country in honour of those killed. Never mind the sea of American flags that flew across Canada the day after. Never mind our troops fighting right beside you in Afghanistan. Never mind any of that. Because it's infinitely easier to hide in the corner and say everybody hates me.

My God in Heaven...

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

BS. We are constantly shown pictures of wounded Palestinian children or Israeli tanks rolling through a Palestinian town with kids throwing rocks at them. I dont know of anyone who thinks of Palestinians as you have described. Now ill led and maybe a little stupid as a people . Thats another story.

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Yes, we do see those pictures and it is about time for the truth to be seen by all. For decades all of this was hidden from view, and anyone who dared expose it was screamed at, blacklisted, and called an anti-semite in hopes of scaring them into silence. Those tactics are still being used but we are fighting them. And winning! :knight:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

So the Plaestinans are called evil because they support their right to live or is it because they believe its their their right even their duty to murder Jews?

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Well, since far more Palestinians have died at the hands of Jews, Israelis I should say perhaps, than Jews at the hands of Palestinians, I would say your question/statement holds as much water as a sieve.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Israel, Britain, Japan, and maybe Australia are our only true allies. Everyone else in the world would love to stab us in the back as the rest of the world has never really liked America. Sure they'll take our money and lives when their backs are to the walls, but I cannot honestly see France or Germany helping America in a time of need without significant financial persuasion.

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I think Canada, Australia and Britain are definitly true allies. I suggest you read more about Japan (Sony's chairman for instance) view on the USA before I would state that they are a true ally.

As for Israel, it may be a true ally it may be doing it out of pure necessity.

As for Australia maybe being an ally, Australia has backed up the US far more then most other countries.

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Well, since far more Palestinians have died at the hands of Jews, Israelis I should say perhaps, than Jews at the hands of Palestinians, I would say your question/statement holds as much water as a sieve.

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I see the side that suffers the most casualties is the most moral.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

and maybe Australia are our only true allies.

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Maybe? Maybe? FFS we've been involved in every major war America has been involved in, justified or not, and we're still only at maybe. We've diverted resources to Iraq to you, when they are desperately needed in our own region.

We may not be able to contribute many personel, but then again we are a relatively small country population wise. In terms of per-person, I think Australia contributes plenty.

Excuse me if I don't support your (personal, not American) causes again, the way you (personal again) treat your countries allies is well out of order.

dgb, I appreciate Australia.

In fact, I'd be willing to make it the 51st state, since you guys have been so cool. ~:)

We will give you Canberra and the ACT as the 51st state and some cash as well. ~:cool:

ACT?

~:confused:

Come on now.. Maine, the Ozarks & Tasmania are one people, waiting to be reunited.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

I see the side that suffers the most casualties is the most moral.

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Casualties do not equate with morality. I was merely saying that more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than Israelis killed by Palestinians.

Since morality figures so heavilly in this matter, and since killing innocent people is immoral, then it is fair to point out who is killing the most innocent people.

The answer is Israel.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

ACT?

~:confused:

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Australian Capital Territory

It's where our capital is. It's sorta close to the border of Victoria and New South Wales, so it was viewed as an acceptible compromise of where the nations capital should be.

It's also quite small, and the city is boring unless you are a politician. Nice design and some nice architechtrue, but I wouldn't want to live there...

Ah. Sounds like cardboard. ~D

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Since morality figures so heavilly in this matter, and since killing innocent people is immoral, then it is fair to point out who is killing the most innocent people.

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Not on a percentage basis. Also the Palestinian deaths are acciddents or shall we say colateral damage for the most part while the Israeli ones are intentionaly targeted at civilians. I for the life of me cannot see how any reasonable person could back the Palestinains in this matter. But thats just me. Again if anyone did this to the US we would wipe them off the planet.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Not on a percentage basis.

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Did you factor in the GNP as well? What about interst rates?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Also the Palestinian deaths are acciddents or shall we say colateral damage for the most part...

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Sure... fire a Hellfire into an open market and the twenty five killed and fifty five injured are, how did you say it, accidents?

How about this one - the suicide bomber on the bus was only after the driver. the other dozen people killed were, wait for it...

Accidents.

Wow, it's like Moral Magic. ~:eek:

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Did you factor in the GNP as well? What about interst rates?

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Im talking of innocents vs legitinate targets.

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Sure... fire a Hellfire into an open market and the twenty five killed and fifty five injured are, how did you say it, accidents?

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Why are they firing this rocket? Did they just decide to go kill some innocent Palestinians or were they reacting to some terrorist acts? The problem begins and ends with the terrorism. Believe anything else and your in a dream world.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Also the Palestinian deaths are acciddents or shall we say colateral damage for the most part

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I don't htink you can say they are collateral damage. Collateral damage in my view is the unavoidable losses, due to the nature of war and conflict. Collateral damage is bad, nobody likes it, but it is clearly unavoidable. What Beirut is reffering to is not collateral damage. It is a cold, cynical judgement, that it is worth a number of civilian lives to kill a terrorist.

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It is a cold, cynical judgement, that it is worth a number of civilian lives to kill a terrorist.

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I guess the allied bombing in of German and Japanese cities in WW2 wasnt the same? Thats always the rational when attacking a target in an urban enviorment.

Yeah but Gawain, to DGB's point, we didn't go firebomb Dresden just to go get one guy. Don't get me wrong, I still haven't figured out the timeline, so I'm not weighing in on this latest round, but you can't claim we were moral because we freed Europe in one breath, and in the next claim because we freed Europe from Germany, we must have been moral.

No offense, but your logic is getting a little cyclical.

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but you can't claim we were moral because we freed Europe in one breath, and in the next claim because we freed Europe from Germany, we must have been moral..

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I dont think thats quite what you wanted to say but I never claimed we were moral when we bombed those cities. I asked a question. It has always been my stance that they were immoral for doing so.

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Yeah but Gawain, to DGB's point, we didn't go firebomb Dresden just to go get one guy.

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Thats the point. At least the Israelis have a legitimate target in most case. You think killing hudreds of thousands indiscriminatly is any better than what the Israelis do? It is truly a dark day in our history. But again these dessions have to be made anytime civilians get in harms way. Also you seem to forget that these terrorists surround themselves with human shields for just such a reason. They know they cant win the fighting war so their only hope is propoganda. Thats why they have so many more deaths. Theirs is a culture of death. To die for Palestine is to have a place in heaven. It doesnt matter if have to kill 20 or 30 innocent women and children to get there. In fact thats the only way you can kill yourself and still get to paradise. How convinient. I guess thats a loophole in Muslim law.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Yes, we do see those pictures and it is about time for the truth to be seen by all. For decades all of this was hidden from view, and anyone who dared expose it was screamed at, blacklisted, and called an anti-semite in hopes of scaring them into silence. Those tactics are still being used but we are fighting them. And winning! :knight:



Well, since far more Palestinians have died at the hands of Jews, Israelis I should say perhaps, than Jews at the hands of Palestinians, I would say your question/statement holds as much water as a sieve.

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so in your opinion , in a conflict , the side who have more casualties is always the right side - that is a good theory ...... if so the americans were the bad side in the war against the nazis ! and against japan hhmmmmm good thinking beirut now sharon should tell IDF soldiers to get killed to allow the canadians to love israel ......... you should realise that after more then 2,000 years of persecutions the jews took in consideration that some people wont like us - don't worry they are going to manage that

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Yea right. Turkey is just as much a fair weather friend as France.

Do you honestly believe that if there was any doubt about the outcome of a war that Turkey would really help the US?

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Yes! It is one of the few countries outside of NATO that can be relied upon.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Israel, Britain, Japan, and maybe Australia are our only true allies. Everyone else in the world would love to stab us in the back as the rest of the world has never really liked America. Sure they'll take our money and lives when their backs are to the walls, but I cannot honestly see France or Germany helping America in a time of need without significant financial persuasion.

Unfortunately Americans are very naive about our position in the world. They seem to forget that the majority of their ancestors are over here because Europe, Asia or South America didnt want them. They think that because the US helped in the World Wars and fought Communism in the cold war the rest of the world loves them - not true. There has always been a deep seeded resentment toward American prosperity.

This country took the rest of the worlds "trash" and turned it into a powerhouse like none before it, to the dismay of many.

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History did not start on September 11, 2001 and it isn't going to end there. You seem to think that your true friends and allies were revealed by your by who would support you in the Iraq adventure. Your friends and allies supported you in your declared aim to destroy terrorism. Iraq had nothing to do with that and was in fact a major setback in the war on terror.

And as for taking your money, well France, Germany, and Canada don't take your money, and Turkey didn't take the bribe you offered them did they? And yet these are the nations you are so upset at. You don't want allies, you want yes men and spearcarriers! I can tell you right now that those sorts tend to vanish when the real trouble starts. Iraq wasn't real trouble by any stretch of the imagination and to use it as a benchmark for who your friends are is an exercise in foolishness.

France fought side by side with you in the first gulf war. How exactly is that a stab in the back? Germany, Turkey and Canada sent soldiers to Afghanistan when you asked for them. Oh yes the betrayals keep coming fast and furious don't they? Canada accepted all flights carrying Americans into Canada after the 911 incident knowing full well that the reason you didn't want them was because they might crash into a skyscraper. Do you really think some terrorist nutjob wouldn't have crashed his plane into a Canadian skyscraper instead? We certainly had no such illusions, and we took them anyway! And by the way. Those were your citizens and by implication your responsibility, not ours. But when Americans were in trouble we took action just like we did during the Iranian hostage crisis. What treacherous villains we are!

I hope Vanuata and Moldavia live up to your expectations as our replacements when they take their place at the kings table!

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Originally Posted by caesar44

so in your opinion , in a conflict , the side who have more casualties is always the right side - that is a good theory ...... if so the americans were the bad side in the war against the nazis ! and against japan hhmmmmm good thinking beirut

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Read post #137.

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Originally Posted by caesar44

now sharon should tell IDF soldiers to get killed to allow the canadians to love israel .........

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I'm sure that's not necessary. Getting out of Palestine and stopping the tortures and killings and bulldozings and theft of land and water would be more then enough thank you. ~;)

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Originally Posted by caesar44

you should realise that after more then 2,000 years of persecutions the jews took in consideration that some people wont like us - don't worry they are going to manage that

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I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying here.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Im talking of innocents vs legitinate targets.

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As mentioned before, Israel has killed more innocent Palestinians than Palestinians have killed innocent Israelis. IDF soldiers are fair game.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Why are they firing this rocket? Did they just decide to go kill some innocent Palestinians or were they reacting to some terrorist acts? The problem begins and ends with the terrorism. Believe anything else and your in a dream world.

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Why did they fire the rocket? Sometimes the reason is pretty specious. Something happens in Lebanon or the West bank or on the moon and a day later Hellfires are hitting an open market in Gaza. Sometimes, when you're mad, you hit what you can, not what you have to.

The problem begins with the brutal occupation of Palestine and ends with terrorism. Both are equally immoral.

My dream world, just so you know, is full of booze & broads - not bombs and bullets. :bow: