Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
Cause i can make a descision and then act on it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
Cause i can make a descision and then act on it.
free will is actually a very troubling subject, both philosophically and physically. it's quite off-topic, but you may not want to hitch any trains of thought to free will. it can get messy.
But how do you know it´s really your decision? You could be like the king of the small planet in Le Petit Prince, who ordered the sun to rise just when it was about to rise anyway. Would it still be "your" decision if it was a subconscious part of your mind that made it?Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
okay i guess you cant know if we have free will, but i still believe we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
Okay and i have thought more on the definitions of faith/belief
belief-something that you hold to be true in your mind.
faith-when you believe with you mind, body, and soul.
Im not exactly sure about the body part, but faith certainly com from the mind and soul.
Question: If you are unsure about the body part and as the soul is part of the mind. The difference between belief and faith narrows substantially, to be virtually the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
the faithful (i'm generalizing i know) don't see the mind and the soul as being the same thing. you might want to define "soul" before continuing.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwitt
Yes the soul is different than the mind. when you die it is said the only thing that live is your soul. I can tell the difference between the soul and mind, but it is a very hard thing to explain. Maybe Pindar could help me out on this one..
What is faith, belief, soul or mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
These are difficult questions and I think there are a host of definitions out there.
I am not an authority on definitions as I am in truth not a native English speaker.
I have opinions though.
Soul and mind: Would a better distinction be soul and spirit?
As to belief and faith*: Belief would be an opinion as to the truth of a given claim and faith is belief in the absence of supporting evidence.
*It is funny that in Norwegian there is no distinction between faith and belief because both translate to the same word: Tro.
Called forth as if by the Witch of Endor herself: I am summoned. :skull:Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
Soul and mind are typically seen as different. Soul refers to a metaphysical claim. It is individualized being that is not tied to or dependant on the material world. Depending on the Christian sect, there are positions that believe the soul pre-exists embodiment and survives after physical decay. It is taken to be the most intimate part of the self. Mind refers to thought or more specifically to reasoning ability. A new born baby would be seen as having a soul, but whose mind is in development. A loon also has a soul, but has lost the ability to control his mind.
Yeah, Pindar thats exactly how I see it.
This is sounding very "supernatural" to me.
I see the "soul" as something created by the mind. When you say you feel something in your soul, you are actually feeling it in your "mind". As we know all feeling is translated by the brain, i.e. "mind" from electrical signals it has received from the nerves.
Therefore the "soul" is a construct of the "mind" in a living person.
After death, the soul separating from the body is in the realm of the "supernatural" and can not be proved either way.
Of course! The soul is by defintition 'supernatural': it is beyond the natural arena. That is why I stated: "Soul refers to a metaphysical claim"Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwitt
Yep. Which I why I do not believe in it. However, KoA believes in "God" becauses he feels it in his soul. Therefore he believes in his "Supernatural" soul and his belief is based on this. As I said, what you feel is actually in your mind not some "supernatural" thing. A belief in "God" is actually a further construct of the "mind".
Once you are dead then it is game over man. No more lives, no continues, and no save points.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just click "up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, B, A, Start"?
Got to be almost fifteen years and I still remember that!
Hmmm. I found a new siggy.
In english those mean the exact same thing i think.Quote:
Soul and mind: Would a better distinction be soul and spirit?
In faith and belief neither need any "facts". They are both opinions, but faith is a much stronger opinion, as it is linked with a metaphysical claim, the soul.Quote:
As to belief and faith*: Belief would be an opinion as to the truth of a given claim and faith is belief in the absence of supporting evidence.
If you no standard, then that suicide bomber thinks he is 'right' and you and everyone else are 'wrong', no ifs or buts.Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
The law is the standard, that's why religion is obsolete.
Animals are 'living' things too, that's all I can say.Quote:
actually i meant to say i dont know. Thats what i said the fisrt time, you twisted my point and even got me confused. I dont know if animals go to heaven and its really not a concern of mine.
Again, animals are 'living' things too.Quote:
The can't pray and have faith thats for sure, They are not nearly intellectual enough. As for going to heaven again i dont really know or care.
You said 'man can tell the difference between right and wrong' and it's what separates us from animals.Quote:
murder is wrong.
loving your neighbor is right.
on the death penalty i dont know. I dont claim to be God were I can say whats right or wrong.
Your bible is a constant, and that's a problem.
Haha.Quote:
Alright when i pray to god. I thank him for what he has done, ask for forgivnece etc. A dog can't do that or even understand the concept. So yes the mind, body and soul are all related.
they might already have a soul, but again i dont know. Surely if they had a developed brain then they could pray and have a faith.
Dogs with developed brains who pray have a 'faith' and a 'soul' and they go to heaven.... :dizzy2:
Then all dogs go to hell then since they have no faith :embarassed:
That's the real destructive EGO: not just the individual first before the whole humanity, but that only human species matters but not his surroundings. ~:eek:
Aha! I removed all the food and suddenly your 'free will to eat' disappears. Surprise, surprise! ~:)Quote:
alright i could sing, i could go pee, i could build a sand castle, etc... the list goes on and on.
No. I'll put it this way: your dna forced you to eat that pizza and toast by making it smell and taste good in your head/brain.Quote:
so you admit i have free will to do it.
The choices have already been made before you were born....Quote:
yes my choice was which one i could eat.
But you have no urge to eat it. The dna forced you to eat that pizza (free will?). But you will force yourself to eat that shoe to prove me wrong (free will?).Quote:
I cant digest it, but i could still eat it.
i´d tough i could post here the best description of "heaven" i ever heard..
from "Calvin and Hobbes" (sorry i couldn´t locate the actual strip)
Calvin: Hobbes, what do you think happens to us when we die?
Hobbes: I think we play saxophone for an all-girl cabaret in New Orleans.
Calvin: So you believe in heaven?
Hobbes: Call it what you like.
.......i don´t think there´s anything after we die....but if that description was correct i wouldn´t mind ~D
Makes one think of soulmates. It's all about sex......
I have studied the faith that Pindar is a member of and one thing that I remember sticking out and that I found interesting was the notion of soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
If I am not entirely mistaken, there is a difference between a soul and a spirit according to the faith in question.
A soul is the combination of body and spirit, the entirety of a being if you will. A soul without its spirit is just a body. A soul without its body is just a spirit. It is the combination of consciousness and flesh. It is the godly being.
This is of course a part of an intricate view of “what is this all about” where the purpose is to become eternal souls, a state where the spirit and body will never again separate, finally becoming the perfect being.
Maybe Pindar could clarify?You misunderstand.Quote:
In faith and belief neither need any "facts". They are both opinions, but faith is a much stronger opinion, as it is linked with a metaphysical claim, the soul.
In belief I make the assumption that the claim can be investigated; it makes truth claims in the physical realm.
Another word for this belief is world view.
Belief is flexible and change based upon maturity and new insight.
Faith on the other hand makes truth claims on the supernatural or metaphysics as we have used as the term in this thread.
There is no way we can find supporting (hand fast) evidence for this truth claim. Hence, the leap of faith.
I am aware of the religious notion of spiritual verification; the spirit speaks to spirit claim.
Faith can be lost or found but always makes an appeal to emotion.
Belief is an appeal to reason.
This is my current view (belief), but I am an open-minded person and can be swayed if convincing enough.
Every religion is at odds with the other and even members of the same religion have slightly different faiths. Sure he thinks hes right and i think im right, simple as that.Quote:
If you no standard, then that suicide bomber thinks he is 'right' and you and everyone else are 'wrong', no ifs or buts.
The law is the standard, that's why religion is obsolete.
yes they are, but as for going to heaven i dont know if the go.Quote:
Animals are 'living' things too, that's all I can say.
yes they are living, but they certainly aren't smart enough to have a faith, as the mind is invovled in faith as well as the soul.Quote:
Again, animals are 'living' things too.
well, we dont know the ultimate truth, but we can make moral judgement and try to do what we see as the right thing. Animals cant do this.Quote:
You said 'man can tell the difference between right and wrong' and it's what separates us from animals.
no it's not.Quote:
Your bible is a constant, and that's a problem.
going to hell or heaven would depend if dogs have a soul. They cant pray(do anything with the mind part of faith), so it would depend on their soul. They would be excused for not having much of a faith cause like babies they cant have one. Thus going to heaven depends on dogs having souls and i dont know if they have one.Quote:
Haha.
Dogs with developed brains who pray have a 'faith' and a 'soul' and they go to heaven.... :dizzy2:
Then all dogs go to hell then since they have no faith :embarassed:
Whats destrucitve. Christianity teaches us to put God first, thus putting doing good before the individual. Of course Christians are human, so just like anybody else we are selfish, but that doesnt change the goal.Quote:
That's the real destructive EGO: not just the individual first before the whole humanity, but that only human species matters but not his surroundings. ~:eek:
no i could have eaten the sand, but anyways yes there are obsitcales to free will. I cant jump up forty feet even though i want too, but just because somehting has limitations doesnt mean it doesnt exist.Quote:
Aha! I removed all the food and suddenly your 'free will to eat' disappears. Surprise, surprise! ~:)
I said i had to choices and it was up to me to make one.Quote:
No. I'll put it this way: your dna forced you to eat that pizza and toast by making it smell and taste good in your head/brain.
AH! A calvanist! ~;)Quote:
The choices have already been made before you were born....
wouldnt it be my free will to prove you worng?Quote:
But you have no urge to eat it. The dna forced you to eat that pizza (free will?). But you will force yourself to eat that shoe to prove me wrong (free will?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
That is basically right. Mormonism takes the Resurrected Christ as the exemplar. The joining of spirit and element (the flesh) is a soul. The eternal joining of these two states is a necessary condition to achieve a fullness of joy. This is not a traditional view however.