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And I find it and you dont. Thats why this will never be settled. Once more for me its obviously human and alive, case closed. For you it turns human and alive at some point but you dont know when. I suggest we err on the side of life. This has nothing to do with religion or a soul. Its a viable and unique human life unless nature or a someone steps in to end it.Quote:
You're looking for justification to call a it human from the time where it is just a single cell.
And you find no place for what science has to say? If science sais it's a single cell (and common sense and perception confirm it) then it's not an human, not even an human being. For what i know the will-to-be-human is only human when he/she borns. In my legislation even the will-to-be are protected, against what i disagree notoriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
So your fine with sucking the brains out of an baby hours or even seconds before its born?Quote:
For what i know the will-to-be-human is only human when he/she borns.
Science says it's a human being, that it'll mature and eventually walk and talk like the rest of us, barring complications in the pregnancy. Unless my biology teachers lied to me, I dunno, maybe we really do come from the stork. Diaper and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
No, you're contradicting yourself. First you say it's an human being and then you say that it'll. Besides, almost all legislations that i know (this will include medical assistence in the investigation) call the embrion (fetus) a will-to-be human, not an human, but i think it would be best if we call it a person or will-to-be person.Quote:
Originally Posted by metatron
For me the "when is the fetus alive" is irrelevant. A fetus is not a human until it's born. Human in this case is a legal term and not a medical or biological. If we decide that a fetus is alive before it's born, then it should have all the rights and responsibilities a child have. Plain and simple.
The problem occur when a woman don't want to have it's fetus. Child care would have some difficulties to take it from her. Bottom line, it's unpractical to give fetus a "human" status......
I agree. You shouldnt be able to kill it and it should have to keep its womb clean. ~DQuote:
then it should have all the rights and responsibilities a child have. Plain and simple.
You are a human being (I hope), and you will understand how the English language works (again, I hope).Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Because legislators aren't the least bit political. ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Besides, almost all legislations that i know (this will include medical assistence in the investigation) call the embrion (fetus) a will-to-be human, not an human, but i think it would be best if we call it a person or will-to-be person.
[QUOTE=metatron]And perhaps you didn't undertand me? I was talking about semantics. You are or you'll be, not the two things at the time, the fetus has not a single human recognizable faction, at least not at the time it's protected, but i'll advance to the birth.Quote:
You are a human being (I hope), and you will understand how the English language works (again, I hope).
Not...it's because they research, take things for the doctrine, scientific works.Quote:
Because legislators aren't the least bit political. ~:rolleyes:
If the concept of humanity is to be centralised around practicality, or utilitarianism, then we may as well round up the aged, the disabled, the retarded, and give them all a new "status" under the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
How about we call them Morlocks, and let them live underground...
Why not use the existing names:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roark
Etiopians = Let them starve to death
Rwandans or Somalis = Let them get hacked to death
Chinese = Let them die as slave labor
Refugees to Australia = Attack them with commando's while international TV catch it
Roark, I think you should broaden your view a little bit more. There are far more humans, still breathing, that require more attention than fetus that are to be aborted. I think your post in reply to me where rather tardy.....
That's not true they've actually recognisable human factions on them, thus the law should protect them as humans. The fetus in some stages has not a single recognisable faction on it, that's why the great part of the legislations use the subterfuge "willtobe".Quote:
Originally Posted by Roark
check this out
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4121411.stm
in particular, look at weeks 6 and 14
And for the want of practicality, human life is expendable.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
And law trumps the beloved science, to boot.
:book:
That is one of the more brazen lies that you have stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
Did the SAS attack the people on the Norwegian ship that entered Australian waters?
No.
What did they do? Took over the ship and gave medial attention to those on board.
Should the Norwegian ship entered soverign waters? Maybe, maybe not.
Some state that the closest port when the people boarded was Indonesia, hence steaming on towards Australian waters was adding people smuggling. I disagree with that statement.
I do disagree with people who are queue jumpers or refugees skipping past viable countries to pick and choose their end destination. That isn't being a refugee, that is illegal entry.
Should the Indonesian government cracked down earlier on people smuggling... yes.
It was on prime time TV news all over Indonesia. Heavy armed forces with bullet proof wests boarding a ship with womens and children. This is one of the largest scandals and most jerky PR stunts made by Australian authorities. It has absolutely nothing to do with if they where illegals or not, neither if the Indonesian government should crack down on people smuggling or not. Australian armed forces made a real jack ass out of themselves. Deal with it...... :charge:Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Yeah Indonesia news is a great balanced media source...
Just as balanced as the Australian news, I would say... :duel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Yes i think that bmolsson went a little bit to far. In fact law's binded to custom and science, so it takes advantage of other fields definition. But the medical science cannot call the fetus an human, at least for what i know. In any case i'll like to know how the law in USA defines persons and from when they're considered persons or will-to-be persons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
...
last time i went i didnt find that to be true.
but that was 10 years ago
soulforged - read that link that i previously posted
First off did ANY of the SAS attack the people on board?Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
NO, so you made a hyperbolic statement that was untruthful. In short you outright lied when you said:/Quote:
Refugees to Australia = Attack them with commando's while international TV catch it
Second who would board a ship off Western Australia? I don't think it would be the artillery. So logically who has the water skills, equipment, boats and medical expertise to perform such an operation?
Put it in to perspective. We argue if a fetus should have human rights and full control over it's mothers body. At the same time thousands of children around the world starve to death, are abused, are sold as cattle.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
The moral among many are only to the neighbours daughter that lives a life in sin. The whole abortion discussion is more about punishing womens than to save lives. I don't see the pro-life debaters on the barricades for increased refugee recieving or increased support to eradication of starvation and poverty. Why should it be more important to save somebody yet to be born than somebody that is already born ? :help:
I saw it with my own eyes. And people don't have to die during an attack to classify it as an attack. In a similar civilian incident, the attackers would have been prosecuted for assult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Most country use the coast guard for that, not special forces. Tell me, the Thai fishing boat that was boarded and seized, which now has proven to be innocent, why didn't SAS do that boat as well ? Fishermen would be a larger threat than womans and children one might assume.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
So when police arrest someone it is an attack?Quote:
Australian SAS commando unit boarded today the Norwegian ship Tampa carrying 440 illegal immigrants after the ship's captain attempted to force his way into the Australian territorial waters.
The Norwegian container ship carries some 440 illegal immigrants from Afghanistan, rescued from a sinking Indonesian boat during their attempt to sneak into Australia. The Australian Army started providing medical and humanitarian assistance to the people on board of Tampa. Contrary to previous press stories, military doctors found that none of the illegal immigrants is in need of urgent medical treatment.
While the ship's Norwegian captain refuses to move his vessel back into international waters, Australia refuses to accept Afghanis, who virtually hijacked Tampa close to the shores of Java, on her way to Singapore.
Special forces were used on the Korean ship last year too.
Korean Ship Boarded by Australian Commandos
The size of the vessel and situation changes the level of the response.
What does this have to do with Abortion? 4th trimester maybe?
Azi
None of the refugees where arrested. And it was not the police. Nice try.... ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Yeah and getting medical aid is being attacked... nice lie.
You are making false statements.
The value of a human life in different ages as well as differnt locations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
I saw what I saw, despite your rosy picture of the Australian forces.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Well, as a donor to Oxfam and Worldvision for 8 or 9 years of my life, I'd certainly like to think that I give fair attention to those whom you consider to be human.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
I certainly give them more attention than the fetuses, a demography that I have devoted an entire 3 or 4 posts in a thread to...
You don't credit the status of a fetus until it has physically passed the cervix (as though something magical occurs at this point), and you're telling ME to broaden my view? Wow. GOLD!!!
The red herring about Australian commandos was beneath you.
Sorry. I've been flat-out with work.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson