Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)

Do you read instruction manuals before assembling? (I do)

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Do you read instruction manuals before assembling? (I do)

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Yeah, my wife gets really irritated about that as well...

Saw a clip tonight that Dubya is saying he will personally lead an investigation into the handling of this response. In his dreams! This one is going to be going before an independent commission. I don't think anyone is going to allow Mr. WMD/Abu Ghraib/Rove protector to investigate his own response. This is no different than NASA's disasters or 9/11. If his people actually did perform well he should want an outside investigation. That is how you actually are vindicated, by independents.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

My wife now understands why I take no chances when such situations are looming. I tell her we are getting out early rather than waiting for the rush, what is coming with us (including which particular weapons) and how I'm going to react to certain situations. She always thought I was a wee bit paranoid. She's a believer now.

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My wife gets mad at me for having 5 different ways to get out of Dallas and 3 different routes to visit her parents in near Kansas City, and then the 6 different routes I use to go to work. She wont let me take my alternate routes to Killeen to visit my brother and his family.

Sometimes I am just to damn security conscience for my own good,

Worth taking a look at -- there's a partial list of FEMA's interference with early recovery efforts. The site is partisan, but everything is linked and documented, so there's good data to be had.

I really don't see how the Executive Branch can avoid giving Michael Brown his walking papers ... for a start. Let's getting rid of Michael Brown as credibility minimum wage.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

First, the current system doesn't work, period.

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Yeah, that's fine to say- and it most definitely needs some changing, but I don't see where we can legitimately call for political crucifixions of people who were following the system that was in place.

As a side, I think it's worth noting that I never supported Homeland Security being made into a cabinet Dept. I, and many other on the right, were concerned that it would become a beaurocratic nightmare- I believe it was Democrats that demanded it be made so. I believe it was also the 9/11 Commission that mandated FEMA and other agencies be shifted under the control of this new Department. Now, our legislators are talking about seperating FEMA again- I wish they'd make up their minds.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

As a side, I think it's worth noting that I never supported Homeland Security being made into a cabinet Dept. I, and many other on the right, were concerned that it would become a beaurocratic nightmare- I believe it was Democrats that demanded it be made so.

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You really ought to back up a claim like that with a linky. I did some searching and found absolutely nothing to back it up -- but perhaps your Google skills are superior to mine. All I could find was a clip from an old NY Times piece:

"The stripes on [Senator Robert Byrd's] jacket appeared to be trembling as much from indignation as from the infirmities of his 84 years as the senator held out his palm, and the power of parliamentary rules, before the onrushing bulldozer of the proposed Homeland Security Department. 'Have we all completely taken leave of our senses?' he said... [The President] 'is shouting, 'Pass the bill, pass the bill!... If ever there was a time for the Senate to throw a bucket of cold water on an overheated legislative process that is spinning out of control,' he said, 'it is now. Now!' ... All but single-handedly, Mr. Byrd has slowed the Homeland Security juggernaut by implicitly threatening a filibuster, almost certainly forcing the Senate to postpone debate until after the August recess... The Senate was virtually empty when he finished, but a sizable crowd of visitors in the gallery broke into applause."

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Yeah, that's fine to say- and it most definitely needs some changing, but I don't see where we can legitimately call for political crucifixions of people who were following the system that was in place.

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Crucifixions are in order. People should be held accountable. They showed no leadership in leadership positions. I don't believe that everyone else should suffer while poor leadership performance is swept under the rug as if it was a minor infraction. In this case, the appointees hid behind their bureaucracies and misled the people, and those in the disaster zones. I don't want another Brown to be willing to accept a job like this if he can't manage it. It is a major responsibility.

The system is far from perfect, but it doesn't have to be this bad. The biggest problem other than the system itself was a lack of URGENCY by the President, by Chertoff, and by Brown (probably also by Blanco.) I've heard Rumsfeld was also involved in less than stellar fashion. Until very direct heat was applied, nothing was happening as it should have.

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Originally Posted by Lemurmania

You really ought to back up a claim like that with a linky. I did some searching and found absolutely nothing to back it up -- but perhaps your Google skills are superior to mine.

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Perhaps. ~;)

It is, admittedly, tough to find the "as it happened" news articles on it. I still remember the TV stories- it was just a few years ago. The White House argued that it was unecessary to create a new cabinet dept, but we being hammered by Democrats on it. Clearly, coming out against "homeland security" was a loser, so eventually Bush turned around and supported it in what was likely election politics.
Democratic opposition to it revolved mainly around union special interests. They didn't want the president to have hiring/firing power without going thru union channels... talk about being beholden to special interests. :dizzy2:

Anyhow, this link from factcheck.org outlines the whole mess pretty well- Kerry tried to campaign on his support for the Dept and Bush's initial opposition. There are plenty more links that talk about Bush's initial opposition to the Dept, but like I said, the "as it happened" articles seem to have vanished.

As a further aside, myself and others were also opposed to the creation of a new Nation Intelligence Director. Honestly, when will people realize that adding layer upon layer of government beaurocracy almost never makes things more efficient?

Address the problems. We need cool heads, not knee-jerk overreactions. 9/11 brought many of the latter, and, sadly, I think Katrina will too.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

The state should have had an all out effort to bring in buses and control the roads to make evacuation possible. Problem is, you can't do it well on the fly with so few hours.

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Now you're talking. If Blanco had commandeered those school buses on Saturday, many would have been in NO on Sunday and they would have been able to operate relatively easy because most of the private cars had left by Sunday afternoon. And of course there would have been problems, small riots, bus crashes, as well as lots of minor cock-ups because in emergency situations most people concentrate on secundary details. But if you want to leave 'no child behind', that is what you have to do. Just think of the Chinese who evacuated a million people in 24 hours for that hurricane the day before yesterday, most of them probably on bikes and on foot.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Just think of the Chinese who evacuated a million people in 24 hours for that hurricane the day before yesterday, most of them probably on bikes and on foot.

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You realize we also evacuated about a million in 24 hours before Katrina, over 350,000 from New Orleans? It is not how many you evacuate, but how many that are left behind that is the issue. New Orleans wouldn't have remained a large issue, except that the waters could not drain (instead filling) and access was such a large problem.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

You realize we also evacuated about a million in 24 hours before Katrina, over 350,000 from New Orleans?

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The painful fact is they were not evacuated, they evacuated themselves. And I think it is not the number of people staying (or left) behind that counts; what counts is what is being done for them.

You are one of the most knowledgeable, hands-on people in this forum and I read all your stuff with great interest, but it seems you, too, have somehow been bitten by the anti-government bug. I look for the old American can-do mentality and all we see these days coming from America is a can't-do mentality. I fear that the result of this whole episode may be a further down-grading of U.S. government tasks and organisations because heck, what can the government do for us anyway?

We may never agree on what could have been accomplished in New Orleans over that fateful weekend, Red Harvest, and part of the reason is out differing outlook. You tend to think of what is possible given the circumstances on, say, Friday 26th. I think in terms of what could have been possible if people in NO and elsewhere in the U.S. had had a different view of government, its purpose and its responsibilities. Underfunding is not the solution to disaster management. Nor is big government. The solution is to get your priorities right. The Dutch failed miserably in 1953 when part of the country flooded. It took a humongous and very costly effort on the part of the entire nation to build better coastal defenses. We had to bleed socially (displacement) and financially (higer taxes) for it, but it was for the common good. I am not sure we could repeat that now. The sense of common purpose has eroded in this nation, too.

The other bit that mystifies me, is the missing (or at least, unreported) grass-roots initiatives. Most of the time in these disaster stories, you hear about how some guy/group of guys sees a snag, and takes matters into their own hands, bypassing beauracracy and solving a problem. Why did that not happen here?

For example: several somebodies must have known where the keys to all those busses were. Why didn't one of them take it upon himself to get that ball rolling? I'm not pointing a finger here, just wondering why such an obvious solution evaded everyone's attention. Just bad luck? Murphey's Law writ large?

About FEMA and it's director: It looks increasingly like they/he need to do less operational stuff - where they just get in the way, and MUCH more coordinatiion stuff. Call in the military (with its easily travelled chain-of-commend) early, and provide logistic & comm support as needed.

No links...just my opinion.

I think we can find the truth in the difference between Mississippi and Loiusiana. Mississippi did all right, while LA did terrible. Since Bush was the President for both of them, the main difference must be in the local (where the mayor did not implement the evacuation plan) and state (where the governor wrung her hands for 24 hours before making a decision).

I think it is foolish to use this as an example as why to rely on government more. It was government (FEMA), with its miles of red tape and books of regulations and restrictions (always supported by liberals who want to regulate everything), that was the cause of a great deal of delays in the relief effort. Expanding gov't and adding more agencies to get in each other's way and empower beauracrats to impose arbitrary rules on the citizens will most certainly not help.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think it is foolish to use this as an example as why to rely on government more.

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Quite. It is no use relying on a government that has no funds and no sense of purpose. The Cubans have a collective sense of purpose and a government that answers their needs in times such as these. They evacuated 1.3 million people in 24 hours before hurricane Ivan (category 5) hit in 2004. No deaths, no looting, and Fidel Castro toured the stricken areas hours after the storm had passed. Castro has a lot to answer for, but he would have long been dead and his system buried if the Cuban government wouldn't look after its people properly in such difficult circumstances. If a dictator can take care of his people this way, why can't a democratically elected government?

For one, a dictator can force his people to move, and move fast. The mayor of NO issued a mandatory evacuation, but didn't even use the buses to transport people out.

Crazed Rabbit

Well there won't be any hearings on the House of Representatives side. Not public ones anyway. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and House Speaker Dennis Hastert (both Republicans, if you didn't know) announced that hearings were cancelled and instead called for a "House-Senate" panel to conduct a "congressional review" of the matter. That's a far cry from public hearings. DeLay then went on to blame local authorities entirely for the problems; and he didn't stop there. He then added that Alabama and Mississippi did a much better job of responding quickly than Louisiana. Alabama and Mississippi have Republican governors. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/...ess/index.html) So it appears that the blame is going straight for the Democrats at the local level with great care being taken to make sure Republicans at the local level are immune from criticism. How nice. So much for non-partisanship, eh? At least they still plan on having public hearings in the Senate. But considering what the House of Representatives Republicans just pulled; I won't hold my breath.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

DeLay then went on to blame local authorities entirely for the problems; and he didn't stop there. He then added that Alabama and Mississippi did a much better job of responding quickly than Louisiana.

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So, did they?

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

So, did they?

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Depends on who you ask, GOP political leaders or the residents. The Mississippians I've seen on TV weren't that happy. Many are just now getting food and water. Fortunately, their situation wasn't quite as dire.

You've got a different situation anyway. The devastated regions of those states are not trapped underwater in conditions that necessarily require evacuation (some yes, most, no.) If you weighed similar areas I'll bet you will find there isn't a lot of difference.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

The other bit that mystifies me, is the missing (or at least, unreported) grass-roots initiatives.

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People have to know that there is a problem before you see such an initiative. With only about a day for outside areas to respond, the call for help has to go out early. I heard buses were actually stopped from going in at some point (according to tourists who had chartered a bus out and were instead trapped.)

After the storm the Feds/State had control of the only access, and were saying that help was on the way. We, like the residents of New Orleans could not know it was a lie until too late.
I personally would have filled my truck with water and some baby formula to drive in, but we were told that such efforts were being blocked.

A public call for help in this country will have everyone and his brother lined up. That wasn't done, in fact it was discouraged. We were told, "Send money." Like that's gonna help.

The GOP will be attacking Nagin until hell freezes over, but he was the one that finally completely tore away the veil. When he went off, the whole country realized that there were only a few hundred guard troops in New Orleans, and no support evident.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think we can find the truth in the difference between Mississippi and Loiusiana. Mississippi did all right, while LA did terrible. Since Bush was the President for both of them, the main difference must be in the local (where the mayor did not implement the evacuation plan) and state (where the governor wrung her hands for 24 hours before making a decision).

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Bogus. Not supported by the timelines I've seen and the changing path of the hurricane (which was originally to strike much farther East, then shifted West to New Orleans. Also ignores the truth that New Orleans faced a problem far different from the rest of the area, that of becoming a fishbowl.

The truth is that it is a national responsibility to help out our countrymen in need. This effort deserves a big fat F. Even Mississippians are getting slow response from the Feds and they too are complaining about a lack of water, etc. They too in many areas have yet to see any organized help.

This keeps getting better.... Remember all the news anchors in NO after the floods screaming about how people in the shelters weren't getting supplied?

Apparently, the Red Cross was positioned with food and water, but the state Homeland Security Department wouldn't allow them in.

From RedCross.org

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Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?

* Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

* The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

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Xiahou,

You forgot to mention that MEMA, Mississippi's Emergency Management Agency was having some of the same problems. There were some Mississippi politicians complaining about that.

Blanco doesn't seem to get it fully, but it is hard to tell what is controlling things now as the Feds and the state are both looking to point at each other. Bigger issue today is that Blanco is holding off on authorizing forced evacuation. Of course, Honore says that the Guard won't be doing it either. ~:rolleyes: Everyone is passing the ball to Nagin's small force to do this. Seems pretty simple to me, this is a security, fire, public health issue. All officers on the ground should be authorized to force compliance with the evacuation order, and the city should be cleared in a systematic manner.

The "no pets" rule has been a serious impediment to voluntary evacuation to those not under water. It made sense when transport was the limiting factor, but now that it is not, it is time to coax the rest out. Having a bunch of dogs about is not safe either.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

They aren't allowing pets? I'd rather take my chances in a flooded city than leave my dog and two cats to die.

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Many would disagree with you. However, in the end, it's a plainly stupid decision to create a position where some, like you, would not evacuate because of a restriction that no longer has any use. The possibilities of stray dogs similar to human looters right now in New Orleans because of the forced "non-pets" rules is not a necessary risk anymore. There is no urgency in terms of limited space now that the resources are mobilized and gathering. It's just a blatant administrative failure that the gov - of all levels - fails to bring them to use in a timely and effective manner.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Xiahou,

You forgot to mention that MEMA, Mississippi's Emergency Management Agency was having some of the same problems. There were some Mississippi politicians complaining about that.

Blanco doesn't seem to get it fully, but it is hard to tell what is controlling things now as the Feds and the state are both looking to point at each other. Bigger issue today is that Blanco is holding off on authorizing forced evacuation. Of course, Honore says that the Guard won't be doing it either. ~:rolleyes: Everyone is passing the ball to Nagin's small force to do this. Seems pretty simple to me, this is a security, fire, public health issue. All officers on the ground should be authorized to force compliance with the evacuation order, and the city should be cleared in a systematic manner.

The "no pets" rule has been a serious impediment to voluntary evacuation to those not under water. It made sense when transport was the limiting factor, but now that it is not, it is time to coax the rest out. Having a bunch of dogs about is not safe either.

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Honore said his troops won't be doing it because that would be law enforcement. His troops are not just Guard units now. Since the force is mixed, he's being very careful not to violate the Posse Comitatus Act which prohibits the use of the federal military for law enforcement actions unless authorized by Congress (to put it in simple terms, it's actually more complicated; but...); since Congress has not authorized it, Honore is bound by law and cannot use any federal troops or any Guard troops under federal authority that haven't been released back to the state.

As for the state Homeland Security Department mentioned by Xiahou, I believe it is under the control of the feds not the state. It is the state organization of the federal department; not a separate state-run department of Homeland Security for Louisiana. ~;) I could be wrong, though. Unless Redleg says I'm wrong, in which case I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right.

And while we're on the subject of FEMA (we weren't but I'm not going to play the Bush game of trying to blame everyone but the feds and have it parroted here by the party faithful)...

It isn't just Brown who is a political appointee at FEMA with no previous emergency experience. Brown's chief of staff at FEMA (the guy who would take over if Brown were fired), Patrick Rhode, was previously an event planner for Bush's presidential and gubernatorial campaigns - no emergency management experience at all (presumably the disaster of not having enough napkins on the tables at a $1000/plate fundraiser counts as emergency management). And under him, the deputy chief of staff, Scott Morris, was a marketing director at a software company and then worked for an Austin, Texas media company where he produced TV campaign commercials for Bush's presidential campaigns. Daniel Craig, Director of the Recovery Division was previously executive director of a regional office for the Chamber of Commerce, a lobbyist for a rural electric co-op, a political advisor and a campaign fund raiser. David Maurstad, the acting Director of Mitigation was previously a regional FEMA director - since Oct., 2001. Before that he was Lt. Governor of Nebraska, a member of the Nebraska legislature, a member of the Beatrice Nebraska school board and mayor of the apparently disaster-prone small town of Beatrice, Nebraska. Kind of makes you feel all warm and tingly inside knowing that competent people were in charge of the decision-making process which tells the professionals and career employees where to go and what to do, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

As for the state Homeland Security Department mentioned by Xiahou, I believe it is under the control of the feds not the state. It is the state organization of the federal department; not a separate state-run department of Homeland Security for Louisiana. ~;) I could be wrong, though. Unless Redleg says I'm wrong, in which case I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right

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Nope, wrong. It's totally under the control of Louisiana. http://www.loep.state.la.us/

The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (LHLS & EP); formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness (LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the Louisiana Military Department. In 1976 LHLS & EP via the Louisiana government reorganization, was moved to the Department of Public Safety (DPS). In 1990 LHLS & EP was transferred again to the Military Department. In 2003 the Agency name was changed to the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, reflecting the additional responsibilities to the State and her citizens.

As I said, I thought it possible that I was wrong.

I noticed in looking through that site, that the department is part of the Military department of Louisiana. It is run by the Louisiana Adjutant General, who is also the head of the Louisiana National Guard. He lives and works... in New Orleans out of the Jackson Barracks. I wonder how much effect that had on the C&C in New Orleans, on the Guard response? If the command and control for the Louisiana Guard was located in New Orleans, that must have created some problems.

An informative article on this from the Wall Street Journal.

A few very relevant tidbits:

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In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.

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A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.

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In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.

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The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.

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Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.

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In short, an enormous failure to implement the detailed plan which would have saved many people, and a failure to learn from the past.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

As for the state Homeland Security Department mentioned by Xiahou, I believe it is under the control of the feds not the state. It is the state organization of the federal department; not a separate state-run department of Homeland Security for Louisiana. ~;) I could be wrong, though. Unless Redleg says I'm wrong, in which case I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right.

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LOL - seems to me someone has a problem with being told they are incorrect.

:help:

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Originally Posted by Redleg

LOL - seems to me someone has a problem with being told they are incorrect.

:help:

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Well, what do we have here? Could it be someone editing out part of a post and then making a personal attack over the edited portion?

You really need to grow up, Redleg; or seek psychiatric care before you hurt yourself. There are 12 year old posters in these forums who act more adult than you do.