The Official KoD thread *SPOILERS*

Guys, what about Herid Fel? What about VANDENE! She died so suddenly, that shocked me to the bones. Vandene to me seemed unstoppable, its just that her character made me think that she would never end. That chapter really made me sit up. "A present from Aldeas"

I think Rand will survive the last battle, but I also think he will die shortly afterwards, probably in hiding. Avienda, Min and Elayne will all outlive him, remember mins viewing of three women in black mourning clothes attending Rands funeral.

And poor old Aiel guy. It was so bad when Perrin took him down, why? because the Aiel guy let him. The Aiel guy just let Perrin kill him so that he didn't have to kill Perrin. Remember, he hesitates when Faile calls out to Perrin, and thats long enough for Perrins hammer to smash him.

Taim is most definately a Darkfriend. Its basically confirmed in the earlier books, and if his special 'students' in his palace aren't darkfriends as well, I'll eat my hat. Taim says: "Remember the old saying: Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

If you remember in the book Lord of Chaos, those are the exact words of the instruction the DO gives to the forsaken. And ALL the ashaman laugh, every last one of them. I think that Logain mentiones that the only people who wear the Dragon who aren't Taims personal 'students' are those Rand has raised, and Logain, probably because Taim couldn't get away with not raising someone so skilled in the power as Logain. The Dreadlords aren't hiding in the blight or anything, they're biding their time in the Black Tower...

A very good read. 3000 pages eh, well it had better be that long if he's going to limit the books. Tairmon Gaidon has so much potential. Why? Because RJ has written 11 books. He's had so much time to develop the culture and the background of the world, and when the world rides to Tairmon Gaidon, all those cultures will ride together. How awesome could it be.....

Now listen to this theory. I subscribe 100% to this one.

Remember when Rand takes Caemlyn from Rahvin. Some time after that in the Royal Palace, Taim is brought to him, and Taim brings with him a gift to try to prove his allegiance. He brings one of the Seals on the DO's prison. When Rand has it in his hand, Lews Therin almost takes over completely, and then you have the scene with Rand holding the seal above his head, everyone else in the room trying to hold his arms in place, screaming: BREAK THE SEALS, BREAK THE SEALS.

Maybe Lews Therin isn't mad at all, maybe the things he does which seem completely mad are actually the way to go. Remember, Lews was not mad when he died.

Herid Fel gets killed because of his discussions with Rand. Herid Fel finds out something important, and dies for it. Just before he dies, he sends Rand a note, saying don't bring min because she's too pretty, he must speak with him. Its something about clearing away the rubble before you can rebuild.

The Seals on the DO's prison are weakening, but the weaker the get, the more the world gets screwed. Remember that Arangar and Osangar are the names of duelling knives covered in poison, a game that became popular in the buildup to the War of Shadow in the AoL, when the bore existed, but the DO hadn't revealed himself yet. That was the DO touching the world. Think of the arsons in Caemlyn. Elayne is surprised that the arson attacks do not diminish with the end of the siege. Personally I think the DO is doing more than making the world shift and the dead walk, he's changing the way men think too. People who are more inclined towards bad deeds are committing them. How long before people are duelling in the streets with poisoned daggers? Rand can't wait for the last battle, or humanity may no longer be strong enough to resist.

Have you ever thought about what will happen at the Las Battle to the DO's prison. Its assumed that the bore will not be resealed, but completely fixed, restored to the way it was when the creator made it. How the hell is Rand supposed to do that? He's not the creator, he can't make the prison as well as the creator did, so how will it work? Now this is where the really clever theory kicks in.

Remember the description of the boring into the darkones prison in the AoL. Well the theory goes something like this: The people in the university (i.e. Lanfear, thought they had detected a new source of power, one that both men and women could use. That power was the True Power, the power of the Dark One. The bore is a weave of the one power, woven by the people of that university of the AoL. Nobody knew at the time how it happened, except that afterwards there is a massive war, Aes Sedai (both men and women) on both sides, and the Dark One touching the world. Massive Saangreal are built to fight the Dark One, but Lews Therin comes up with a daring plan to seal the DO's prison. The female Aes Sedai object, saying that the plan is foolish, and they should use the two statue Saangreal to fight the DO. The female Aes Sedai boycotte the plan, and Lews Therin gives up his plan, as he thinks he will need women in circles to place the seals on the DO's prison.

The Saangreal get lost in terrain now occupied by the Shadow, and Lews Therin decides to carry out his plan without the women, resulting with the taint, and the 7 seals as we know them.

That much comes straight from the history, its not theory at all. The only theory in there which isn't confirmed is that the bore is in fact not a 'hole' in the DO's prison, but in fact a weave of the one power that allows the DO to touch the world.

This is the nifty bit: The Seals are the rubble, which must be cleared away before you can rebuild. Rand will start the last battle, not the Dark One. Rand will smash the seals, and they will battle to undo the weave which is the bore. They will succeed of course, but how?

I think this theory has hit the nail on the head, and to be honest, I can't wait :evilgrin:

cool theory - woot @ you finally getting caught up - lol

and I mean, yeah Herid Fel was important, yeah we saw Vandene for a bit, and Faile's almost Aiel lover... but none of those were MAIN characters - ya kno?

The damage to Rand is the most severe, apparently permanent, things we've seen happen to a main character. Shocking and very cool imo. I agree wholeheartedly with Taim and Co. being Darkfriends. Personally I think Taim is a new Chosen, the first raised from this age... I think there is one more too - but I'm not sure who.

Well about the seals. One of more reasonable theories is that seals are preventing the wheel from resealing DO prison. While they exist Wheel can not fully close the bore.

And about the DO touching the world. DO had less influence during the fall of Aol (lasted about 100 years I think) which was before War of Shadow. War of Shadow erupted when DO followers attempted to largen the Bore.

From Beginning of WoP to the Breaking strenght of DO grew.
And so is now.
It should already be at AoL (before WoP) level.

Rand will break the seals in order to have a lear acess to the bore. Now how will he seal it (will Creator intervene, which I doubt) I don't know.

hmm, thats why I quite like the theory that the bore is a weave rather than an actual hole in anything. If that weave is sliced, then the prison is restored, to exactly as it was before it was bored into.

I also think that if a main character dies, it will probably be Egwene

Well I would like a lot of things but they aint going to happen. If you break the seals you simply restore the bore to it's state before the sealing(tough it is possible that the shock of them breaking either seals it (if they block the Wheel from closing it an DO is using them in order not to spend his force in keeping the bore open) ir it can rip it more apparat (if it is as many belive in Ranland that only seals keep DO from overrunning the world)).

Egwene?
I don't think so. She is too much into that crap all power to women for RJ to allow it.

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Well I would like a lot of things but they aint going to happen. If you break the seals you simply restore the bore to it's state before the sealing(tough it is possible that the shock of them breaking either seals it (if they block the Wheel from closing it an DO is using them in order not to spend his force in keeping the bore open) ir it can rip it more apparat (if it is as many belive in Ranland that only seals keep DO from overrunning the world)).

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What do you mean by that? I'm almost sure that Rand will break the seals...

Or that they are already broken... some think the three waves of reality flickering which were felt was the DO flexing and breaking the last three seals.

Oh and I'm also shure that he will break them. But I don't think that after he breaks them bore would close because of some weave thing.

Yeah and I know about that theory also. But problem is that it has been foreshadowed a couple times (Fell note, Egvene's dream) that Rand will break seals and begin TG.

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Oh and I'm also shure that he will break them. But I don't think that after he breaks them bore would close because of some weave thing.

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I never said that. I said that the bore is a weave. To seal the bore Rand has to slice the weave. The seals are on top of that weave.

I'm not saying its a simple matter of breaking the seals. That would be kinda crap....

ah that's what you meant.
Well, nice theory but it kinda lacks evidence. We know Merion drilled the pattern, then the bore was the weave. But that weave was broken when DO unleashed TP on it and from that moment Do had control over it.

Think about it as a gate to the place where Titans are imprisoned as on Greek mythology. You need insider (someone from real world) help to break out (or in, the matter of perspective). Merion was needed to open the gate which only mortals (insiders) can do, but once the gate was at least partially open DO could hold it open. But door has it's sel healing (closing ) mehanisyms. Remember why Wheel spawns ta'veren? They are spun to correct pattern. Our three ta'veren would need to be present at SG and a distraction should be made so that Do lessens it's grip on the entrance and alow Wheel plus pull from three ta'veren to heal the gap.

This is just my thoughts this moment.
I am shure what will happen will be either something simple and something rarely someone expected.

So, with all this talk 'bout the books, maybe we should add some connection to the mod... I was wondering what parts of the book you think we can use in the mod. Here is a lsit of things I can think of right now:
* Increased fire rate for the bands crossbows
* Razors for domani nobles
* Seanchan use more crossbows then archers
* Seanchan use a mix of homeland and protectorate troops

More?

Also, I would like quotes you like from the book. Not to long mind....

More horse archers. Deffinetly for Domani, the Borderlands etc. Then the best ones should get a unique horse archer unit (Saladeans).
And lancer/archers...

-I don't know what size you are planning on making each unit, but the band of the Red Hand's units are split into banners. 1 banner of horse = 1500 horse. (see the big white book and KoD ) 1 banner of foot = 3,000 men.

The seanchan use the same standards that Mat uses. They are more organized though, already having banner generals, lieutenant generals, and captain generals set up to command the armies. The other nations in Randland don't follow any type of organization other than every noble tries to get as many men as he/she can.

-The range on the two rivers bows should be longer than anyone else has.

-The taraboners that are in the Seanchan army seem totally loyal to the Seanchan. When General Galgan is getting reports about Ituralde's attack, at first they think that the conscripts they've signed had turned coat on them, but they find that it was Ituralde who had disguised his men. The Taraboners are very loyal to the Seanchan and even like them. Taraboner units in the Seanchan army or Taraboner generals in the Seanchan army should be very loyal.

-Amadician generals and Altaran generals in the Seanchan army don't seem as loyal. The Children, led by Galad, rebel against the Seanchan. Those men captured by the Seanchan when the fortress of light was taken are being worked like animals and they would flee and fight the Seanchan if they could. Beslan (Tylin's son) leads an uprising in Ebou Dar to allow the Seafolk Windfinders to escape and to allow Mat to escape. Also, the group of 10,000 men who attack Mat are Altarans. They are trying to kill the daughter of the nine moons. So I get the impression that the Amadicians and Altarans under Seanchan rule don't have the same loyalty that the Taraboners do. Although in other spots it is mentioned that the local conscripts fight with honor for the Seanchan.

-Mercenaries seem to be in abundance. Elayne mentions at least 6 different companies under her employ (3 turned on her and 3 remained loyal), and implies that there are a great many more. Arymilla has just as many under her own employ. She mentions she doesn't care that she is losing men, because the men she loses are mercenaries, not any of her own men. I would make mercenaries widely available, and have more than just 2 or 3 types of units. I would have at least 3 mercenary units available to recruit in each province and in the larger provinces/more populated provinces I'd have more than 3.

-Andor makes the best steel. Every local trader claims their weapons are either homemade or from Andor steel. Perhaps Andor should start with 1 upgrade to their weapons?

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Originally Posted by cdaulepp

-The range on the two rivers bows should be longer than anyone else has.

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Not by much. They were on a hill when they were firing on the Aiel, who would be able to fire almost as long and faster with their shorter composite bows (which have always been better than selfbows).

Well yes and no. Two rivers archers only fire when they can aim and hit that target. Theri actual range is even longer. They nealy never fire in arcs.
And also they punch trough armour at ranges normal archers can't hit a target.

Disloyalty seems to be the trait for entire Altaran nation, as it is to Murandians. IF it can be made, Muranians an Altarans should have serious disloyalty issue, making their ocupation a werry dificult action.

And it would be shame if in demo I wouldnto see the quote "When Nial smiles, he's goin for the throat" or something like that.

good points about the mercenaries and the andorian steel cdaulepp =]

and to Steppe Merc - I did a breakdown on suggested missile stats before - you're right that in our world, composite bows are always better than any kind of self bow - but Jordan doesn't seem to apply those rules to his world - the Two Rivers bows are better than the Aiel bows in his world... at least in range and power... whether this is purposeful or a misunderstanding I'm not sure... but given his military background - I've got to assume that he just intentionally has a different design perhaps in mind for his Aiel bows that isn't as effective as that which was found in the Earth steppes

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Originally Posted by SMZ

good points about the mercenaries and the andorian steel cdaulepp =]

and to Steppe Merc - I did a breakdown on suggested missile stats before - you're right that in our world, composite bows are always better than any kind of self bow - but Jordan doesn't seem to apply those rules to his world - the Two Rivers bows are better than the Aiel bows in his world... at least in range and power... whether this is purposeful or a misunderstanding I'm not sure... but given his military background - I've got to assume that he just intentionally has a different design perhaps in mind for his Aiel bows that isn't as effective as that which was found in the Earth steppes

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I don't think it was an error on RJ's part. The reason the Aiel composite bows have a shorter range is because they are not made to full scale like a Two Rivers Bow.

The Aiel carry three or more spears, a small shield, a horn bow, one or more daggers, and arrows. Wearing a full size bow on your back, extra spears, and a quiver with arrows, while trying to fight with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other would be terribly inhibitive. I always imagined the Aiel composite bows were smaller, scaled down versions of a full bow. I thought that was what caused them to have a shorter distance.

cdaulepp

they are smaller - but so were the bows of Earth's nomads - they were using the bows from horseback after all...

it's just in the composition of the bow - composite bows are much better than self bows - by layering different materials you get a lot more potential energy - thus composite bows outshoot even the famed long bows, despite being smaller, faster and easier to use

ppl used what they had - in the western parts of europe there was plenty of wood - so to get a better bow - you made a bigger one

in the east - there wasn't an abundance of wood - so they figured out an even better way to make a bow using horn and animal sinew

that's why yew bows were famed - because yew wood, just in the way it grows, is kinda a natural composite... but still - you can see that a piece of horn that gets bent will release more energy than a piece of wood that gets bent, when they both snap back

I'm sure RJ's gotta know all that - so like I say, I'm guessing the Aiel bows aren't quite made the same way that ppl make composite bows in our world.

EDIT: To make an analogy: Somebody hitting you with a huge bag of feathers is going to hurt more than a little bag. But getting hit with a baseball hurts even more. The long bow is like increasing the size of the bag of feathers... the composite bow, is like finding something better to hit people with.

Is there a possibility to add false dragons to spawn once in time as rebels?

Yes it is though they'd just be rebels... No special flag or anything

yes that's what I wanted a rebel general who can chanel.

Hmm, sounds fine by me, just one thing though, from what i've seen, i think you want to stick as close to the books as possible?

I may have misunderstood though, but if that is so, then, having false dragons spawn is probably a bad idea, i seem to remember something being said about the pattern not allowing any more false dragons to proclaim themselves once Rand has done so.

so if you want to stick with the booksthen, having false dragons spawning with rebel armies probably isn't a good idea, if you can consider deviating a bit from what the books say, then i say, go for it.

Actually, we'll be able to have it both ways. One of the choices we made was to have two eras. The first, The Flame of Tar Valon Era, will take place while there is still a Malkier, and the Forsaken are locked away, the Seanchan are a myth and the White Tower is the lands foremost power. In this era, false dragons could pop up.

The second era is titled, The Dragon's Fang Era. This Era begins with the Seanchan Invasion, so The People of the Dragon will be active, and no false dragons will be popping up. Good point tho - thnx for mentioning it. =]

Right, i had forgotten that you were doing two different eras, no problem then.

The possibility of a False Dragon appearing in the Early era of the mod would definately spice things up :2thumbsup: It sounds like a bit of a challenge to implement though. It wouldn't seem right to have them like bandits or something, cropping up in the wilds every few years. Maybe through scripting?

I don't know if it's possible to implement this, but one thing that would be really cool would be to simulate False Dragon's significantly increasing their support when they win battles. It seems to me from the history in the books that if a FD declares himself but is then immediately crushed, he is forgotten by history, but if he consistently succeeds in battle he starts rapidly gaining support as more and more people are persuaded that he's the Real Deal. They would start out as a relatively minor danger, but if ignored or not taken seriously you might end up with somebody like Guaire Amalasan, with hundreds of thousands of followers sweeping over entire nations. Ideally having them trying to capture Tear would be really great.

That's probably too sophisticated to feasibly implement, but just throwing out some ideas.

One other small question I'm not clear on: Will the Shadow feature and/or be playable in the Early Era, or are you concentrating on the interaction between the human nations?

Antagonist

The Shadow will be featured in both eras...

Well in Early era, will their be Two Rivers longbowmen? Don't they only start to moblize after Rand?

As for composite bows, I do think that Jordan has made a mistake, either through choice or ignorance. So I guess the longbow should have a longer range, since you want to be true to the books or whatever. But please don't screw over the Northern and Western (seems these guys like horsebows the most) recurved horse bows, and especially the Aiel bows (infantry composite is always longer, and has better range and penetration).
Longbows also tend to rely more on the weight of the arrow rather than the compression of the bow for pentration (and longbows were slower to fire and took more to draw to the ear).

One question. Which year does the first era start?

About longbows, I don't think the wierdness is with the Aeil, I think its in the Two Rivers, the "black yew" they use is, I think actually different to real yew. It sounds like the trees have evolved over 3,000 years. Don't forget crossbows have greater range and power anyway, Mat says that at one point.

About the seals, Rand has to break them because I suspect that otherwise more taint could get leached onto Saidan. Also I don't really see how things could get that much worse.

Just a thought, would it be possible to script the emergance of a Malkiri Horde, with the sole purpose of fighting the Shadow?

We have talked about making The Golden Crane a playable faction in the late era.

As for when the early era will start, we do not have a absolute number for that yet, but it might be somewhere around 100 yeares before the aiel war. The late will start with the fall of cairhien.