I couldn't agree more. For having observed thugs while I was at school, I seriously doubt they're even able to understand that destroying their own quarters is worsening their reputation, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
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I couldn't agree more. For having observed thugs while I was at school, I seriously doubt they're even able to understand that destroying their own quarters is worsening their reputation, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Don't you think that you're acting a little gringo here. Sure they're causing disasters, but are they treated with the same respect of all other frenchs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
SoulForged, a lot of 'white French' live in these cities, and they don't get a better treatment. Yet 90% of the people rioting are blacks or arabs
Being treated poorly may give them an incentive to act violently, but it sure doesn't give them rational or legal bounds to act violently. They are clearly in the wrong, and the violence is caused by them only. We have no legal basis at all when people are no longer held accountable for their actions.
Causing disasters is a bit way to gain respect. This isn't new, Paris has basicly been a warzone for years. They don't deserve any respect, as they are just a bunch of criminals. They don't behave like the other french, too many people are mixing up cause and effect. There is absolutely no more reason for these riots occuring then this trash being the hyena's of mankind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
This thread is gradually filling up with fascist crap that does not even merit consideration. Count me out from here on.~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I bet that you're a lawyer no? Well I'll try to respond as a sogiologist: Sure there's no basis for being violent. But if all your rights are denied, and they're treated poorly, and you don't have rational institucionalized methods to get your demands and make them effective, there's only one thing that can work, violence. I dislike violence, but it's one of the finest methods to achieve goals in this world. It's a shame that the spirit of the Revolution is now lost in France. Law is there to be an instrument for society and respond to them, not to always put a limit, and keep them on their sits, watching their rights being smashed. I'll tell you what, if I wes them I'll surely do the same.Quote:
Being treated poorly may give them an incentive to act violently, but it sure doesn't give them rational or legal bounds to act violently. They are clearly in the wrong, and the violence is caused by them only. We have no legal basis at all when people are no longer held accountable for their actions.
Coming from a city were this happens day after day, and understanding that nobody deserves poor treatment, and that the human being must be respected as an individual before the society itself, then I think I can talk about this. Here we learned to tolerate this kind of groups, why, because they've reasonable requests, they demand what they deserve, at least in it's great majority. Surely a first world country will learn to deal with this with reason and understandment, before using arms.
Tell me where you're and I go with you...:eeeek:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Wait for me! And we can all take a boat to Utopia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Au revoir. Look at the bright side, won't be long untill we have a thread of our own wouldn't that be the bomb. Ca commence mia muca.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
look ....just shoot the bastards.
http://www.news.com.au/story/print/0...162023,00.htmlQuote:
Riots continue unabated
By Elisabeth Pineau in Paris
07-11-2005
From: Reuters
GANGS of youths torched 1300 vehicles in the 10th consecutive night of violence in Paris's poor suburbs and major French towns, despite the deployment of thousands of extra police.
Cars were burned out in the historic centre of Paris for the first time yesterday. In the normally quiet Normandy town of Evreux, a shopping mall, 50 vehicles, a post office and two schools went up in flames.
Authorities have so far found no way beyond appeals and more police to address a problem with complex social, economic and racial causes.
Evreux mayor Jean-Louis Debre, a confidant of President Jacques Chirac and speaker of the lower house of parliament, said:
"To those responsible for the violence, I want to say: Be serious ... If you want to live in a fairer, more fraternal society, this is not how to go about it."
The deaths 10 days ago of two youths apparently fleeing police ignited pent up frustrations among young men, many of them Muslims of North and black African origin, at racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the police.
"Many youths have never seen their parents work and couldn't hold down a job if they got one," said Claude Chevallier, manager of a burned-out carpet depot in the rundown Paris suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois.
But authorities now say the rolling nightly riots are being organised via the Internet and mobile phones, and have pointed the finger at drug traffickers and Islamist militants.
Seven police helicopters buzzed over the Paris region through the night, filming disturbances and directing mobile squads to incidents. Police made 349 arrests.
The number of incidents in the Paris region was similar to the night before, but in the provinces it was up sharply.
The violence has tarnished France's image overseas, forcing Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin to cancel a trip to Canada, while Russia and the United States have warned their citizens to avoid Paris's troubled suburbs.
Mr Villepin has combined a call for an end to the riots with dialogue with community leaders, youngsters and local officials, and has promised an action plan for 750 tough neighbourhoods.
"I'll make proposals as early as this week," the weekly Journal du Dimanche quoted him as saying.
But it remained unclear what could stop the violence, though some Opposition parties have suggested a symbolic measure - the resignation of Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.
Accused of stoking passions by calling troublemakers "scum", Mr Sarkozy has ignored calls to quit. A survey indicated his public image was holding up, even if many disapproved of his strong language.
Mr Villepin also has ambitions to be the right wing's presidential candidate in 2007 and has tried to position himself as a much more consensual figure than Mr Sarkozy; the effect on the crisis on his ratings is still unclear.
With no end in sight to the nights of wailing sirens, acrid smoke, stone-throwing and destruction, residents from all ethnic backgrounds are tiring of the unrest.
"My kids can't sleep at night," said a mother named Samia in Aulnay-sous-Bois. "They hear explosions, they see fires and they think they're in a war. When the slightest thing happens, they get anxious and say 'Mama, what's going on?'"
Just hope it doesn't get as violent as the '92 LA riots... so far the number of people beaten to death by rioters isn't as high.
I'd be curious to know whether you live in a rich quarter or nearby a poor surburb. You have to see things for yourself before making utopian points.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Pray, tell me what rights they're being denied? The right to employment? The ones who want to work, to be socially integrated are being penalised because of those thugs who give an infamous reputation to specific areas and cultures. Now, should we force employers to recruit people from certain areas, cultures and religions? That would be a breach of freedom and basic rights, since it would be akin to institutionalising discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Most of the rioters, if not all, are lazy and unwilling to work at school even when given proper opportunities. Better not take that example of 40 people in a classroom because I know from personal experience that being only 25 doesn't make them more hardworking.
Treated poorly? Lack of respect? This certainly is true for their elders, those who have fled Algeria after the war. They have been humiliated and exploited, but did they think it granted them the right to riot? No, while it would have been perfectly understandable if they did. The ones in the streets are regularly ambushing firemen and doctors, they're burning cars and smashing bus stops, removing road signs, terrorising their neighbours, ruining their neighbourhoods and stealing just for the fun of it. Even their "thuggish accent" is repulsive (please don't tell me it's a normal way of talking, unless you're having serious elocution problems). Do you sincerely think that those who demand respect so fiercely act appropriately?
This is all very true. Okay, I've had my little rant about people torching my city, now I'm back to my normal reasonable self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvs
I've said it before in this thread, it's a chicken and egg debate. Yes, France didn't deliver to her immigrants, neither the state nor her citizens ever accepted them as their brothers. So much for our ideal of fraternity.
But you have got to make people respect you also.
It's not that hard. Or well it probably is, but it can be done. The Chinese, Portuguese, Italians, Jews, Poles, Romanians, Vietnamese and Lebanese all managed. All of these groups number in the hundreds of thousands, and are a great contribution to our society.
There are millions of Arabs even who've accepted our society and do very well. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of this all is the discrediting of them.
No, they're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
But then [rant back on] most other French don't hate homosexuals and Jews, don't verbally and sexually assault women who don't subscribe to their dress codes, don't despise France in general and don't have perennial demands for 'respect' to top it off.
It's not Argentina here, it's not about being able to make a living in an economy that has been ravaged in the last few years. I'm sure most of the rioters could be appeased with the promise of the newest cell phones and Euro 300 Nikes so they don't have to go out stealing them anymore. [/rant mode]
Oh well, I should leave this thread too perhaps. I'm in no mood for reasonable, worthwhile contributions.
Agreed. Right now, those who really suffered from France's policy are also suffering because of these rioting bastards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvs
Incorrect, one only needs to look at how France became a Republic in the first place or USA to see that being treated poorly is reason for an act of rebellion and change of state. What the rioters have to understand is if they don't win the should be held accountable for their actions. And even if they do 'win' the criminal element of the riots should be held accountable by the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
France also has to learn to make the rioters accountable for their actions. And the French/French Government have to be made accountable for theirs. Any false promises should be made accountable for.
thats a lot of accountability ~;)
Yes, so much so that they will have to outsource to London for the Accountants. ~;) ~D
The whole idea of "criminal" and "illegal" seriously comes into question in these sort of times. Rioters tend to believe the state structure they're living under is illegitimate in at least some ways. In response that same state structure declares their actions "illegal" and sends in it's coercive forces (police and military) to put down these "illegal" actions. The crux of the issue is that those rebelling, revolting, rioting, etc tend to deny that state's legitimacy to make determinations of legal and illegal. When discussion, news coverage, or whatever else attempts to force such actions into such a paradigm the only serious result is to ignore the reason such action is being taking and to reinforce the dominance of the state structure that is being challenged. People trying to be "unbiased" should take note.
That is erronous reasoning. As I said, the government's actions may provide incentive for people to act some way, but it is another to say that they caused the actions that the people took. The person taking an action is solely the cause of that action. And, I neither agree with the actions the American revolutionaries nor the French revolutionaries took. Yet, I do not know if this "promise" is metaphorical or an actual promise expressly made by the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Mainly metaphorical, in the words of Meneldil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
It's rather some historical ideology, you know, the Revolution, the Republic, the Human Rights and all that stuff.
But then, this is the very soul of France. That our equality and fraternity in practice do not extend to all is a most painful conclusion.
Alas, we've tried to take on the world once before and failed back then too. Things do tend to go horribly wrong when we extend our arms to the world.
DANG! This is still going on! I thought they'd of ran out of steam by now. This getting ridiculous. If pepper balls and bean bag guns are not working. Have the Riot police go in there with some 870s and ar15s and clean up!(well thats what they would use here...I don't know what french police armories have) Give them ONE last chance if they refuse send em' in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar010
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "Let's create a few thousand martyrs!" If 2 kids getting themselves killed running from the police caused this what do you think police attacking crowds of civilians with automatic weapons would cause? The French left would certinly take to the streets in solidarty, and not only Chirac's governemnt but the current version French state would be in serious jepoardy.
What choice do they have? Let the rioting continue, and it will become worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
Heck they probably would just have to shoot over their heads and the crowds would run away. And If not they would only have to shoot a few out of each crowd to send the rest running.
OT and pretty pointless but whatever
ar15s are semi auto
870s are pump action
Think about katrina if they shot the first few looters, once every one else found out they'd have stopped
The looters in NO weren't having a race riot though. Here, methinks they attack out of hatred rather than out of opportunity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie
Quote:
The Gendarmerie Mobile
It is divided into legions, similarly as the Gendarmerie Départementale.
Its main responsibilities are
crowd and riot control
security of public buildings
all policing tasks that require large amounts of personnel (Vigipirate counterterrorism patrols, searches in the countryside...).
It has specialized units:
the group of security of intervention of the Gendarmerie Nationale (GSIGN), consisting of:
the intervention group of the Gendarmerie Nationale (GIGN), an elite counterterrorism and hostage rescue unit,
the parachutist squadron of the Gendarmerie Nationale (EPIGN),
a detachment to the security group of the President of the Republic, whose responsibility is to ensure the safety of the President and of its family and guests.
In addition, it has armored units:
17 squadrons equipped with armored personnel carriers, throughout the French territory;
the armored group at Versailles-Satory, consisting of 3 squadrons of armored personnel carriers and 1 squadron of light tanks with 90mm cannons.
Such units may intervene abroad in varied cases such as a hostage crisis or the support of peacekeeping operations.
The tasks of the gendarmes mobiles tasks are similar to those of the police units known as Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité (CRS), for which they are often mistaken. Easy ways to distinguish them include:
the uniform of the CRS is blue, the gendarmes mobiles are clad in black;
the CRS wear a big red CRS patch; the gendarmes have stylicized grenades.
Quote:
The Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité (often abbreviated to CRS) are the riot control forces and general reserve of the French National Police.
In French, the whole force is correctly called les CRS (fem.pl.). In French slang, un CRS (masc.) may also mean "a CRS man". CRS vehicles and uniforms are recognizable by CRS logos.
The CRS were created in 1944 and reorganized in 1948. The task for which they are best known in popular culture is crowd and riot control and re-establishment of order. Their occasional abuse of force has led to recurring criticisms from demonstrators.
A famous slogan from the students revolts of May 1968 was "CRS = SS". More pleasantly, their initials could be subverted, for example in Car rempli de singes ("Coach full of monkeys").
Other missions include:
motorway police in urban areas
rescue operations during the summer on beaches (some CRS officers are trained in beach security).
The CRS and the gendarmes mobiles are often mistaken for each other (their missions are very similar). Ways to distinguish them are:
the uniform of the CRS is blue (albeit dark blue generally), the gendarmes mobiles are clad in black;
the CRS wear a big red CRS patch; the gendarmes have stylicized grenades.
Louis , Meneldil and LDVS .
Were any of your parents rioting in Paris or elsewhere in France in '68 ?
Did the police clampdown back then work or make it worse ?
What about the riots during the pogrom a few years earlier did the police make that better or worse ?
Its nothing new is it . Your national celebration day commemorates a riot does it not .~;)
Treated poorly? Lack of respect? This certainly is true for their elders, those who have fled Algeria after the war. They have been humiliated and exploited, but did they think it granted them the right to riot? No, while it would have been perfectly understandable if they did.
Oh but they did riot didn't they Ldvs . ~:rolleyes:
:bow: ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
I agree with you, rioters are just damaging the reputation of other arabs. When i was in germany i saw something similiar, Iraqis there were generally doing trouble and egyptians and lebanese were getting lumped in for no particular reason besides being arab.
Btw most arab rioters are algerians? I could probably understand why people don't like them much.
What a wonderful set of opinions by most people in here!!!
(reproduced in my own words)
- "It's too late for a descent solution. Let's shoot them all and get rid of them. Sent the army in, guns blazing. Heck, these are not human beings, just scum, they don't deserve to live."
- "Perhaps instead of shooting them we should sent them to labour camps. Yeah, they'll be useful to society there." (as if immigrants with a job aren't already working their asses off for a ludicrous salary, at most cases)
- "No, we'd rather drive the lot of them out of the country. They' re not really humans you know, just scum, so they won't mind being tossed around like rag dolls."
So it is death, incarceration or exile for them, according to you, isn't it? A triptych, like an older one i seem to remember... liberte, egalite, fraternite wasn't it?...
I was expecting to come across nationalistic, right-wing and fascist opinions in these forums and especially in threads like this one but i never expected them to be the majority.
Bourgois are so trapped into the safety of their own wage-slavery and so frightened for their precious posession. They are running around like frantic chickens, screaming "please bring in the police, the army, the neo-nazis, whomever. We don't mind if all freedom melts under military boots, we're just so afraid someone might burn our car."
Immigrants have been harshly used by the capitalist economical machine as a cheap labour force for ages now. They have been repeatedly beaten and abused and often ruthlessly shot at by oh-so-eager-to-keep-order cops. This is not a fact for France alone but for any country in the whole world, including the one i live in (Greece), of course.
After the local working classes in most western countries got incorporated into the system via better salaries and several deals of mutual consensus between their representatives and the state, immigrants were celebrated as the new poor wage-slaves by employers and actually boosted capitalist economy a great deal through endless work-hours. The bourgois became bosses themselves to the new "slaves".
After all this, how do you expect immigrants to be gratefull of the "hospitality" they received, especially when they come from a totally different culture which makes them feel even more alienated? Life in such conditions is also quite likely to cause some of them to become criminals. And i'm not saying that a person is not responsible for their actions. However, one acts according to his personality and personality is carved through countless events and experiences and these are closely related to the society one lives in.
Therefore, the entire society is co-responsible for one's actions. Saying that someone is solely responsible for his actions throughout his life is a very good alibi for people who don't wish to have a part of the responsibility of what goes wrong in the society.