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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quick post as I am off on the work's Christmas lunch!!
I am at one with Kraxis I think. We must secure the bridgehead but we need to exercise a little caution while we regroup.
I will slightly disagree with Kraxis about German reaction to Allied bombing. There were instances of the population taking revenge on shot down airmen for example. Also, the post war reaction was coloured by the then political situation - the UK/USA were initially the occupying force, were also seen as co defenders against the Soviets during the Cold War etc. Also the west did pour resources into the rebuilding of Europe - the Marshall plan etc - so surely there was a great deal of not biting the hand that feeds you.:san_laugh:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
I will slightly disagree with Kraxis about German reaction to Allied bombing. There were instances of the population taking revenge on shot down airmen for example. Also, the post war reaction was coloured by the then political situation - the UK/USA were initially the occupying force, were also seen as co defenders against the Soviets during the Cold War etc. Also the west did pour resources into the rebuilding of Europe - the Marshall plan etc - so surely there was a great deal of not biting the hand that feeds you.:san_laugh:
Of course not... But just because one side does something bad doesn't mean that the other side suddenly looks good. It was mostly civilians who killed the aircrews, and who can blame them really? I mean from their point of view it was murder. But they did not kill fighter pilots or other prisoners they got their hands on. They had a directred hatred, which wasn't pointed at the Allies in general but the bombers.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
The details I do not agree with:
The 20,000 volounteers. Germany had few reserves left by then, men would not be allowed to just volounteer from their civil jobs (Total War now).
You think 20,000 are too much? Appr. Germany had a population of some 100 million, so ca. 50 million men. If you divide that to 100 birth years (1844, 1845 , ... 1943) then you have 500,000 men per year. If the military only recruited every second of them then they got 25,000 brand new recruits per month.
If memory serves the fighter pilots (and the crews of the subs) were mainly volunteers. There was a big propaganda going on to get young men to the fighters. Marseille, Galland, Priem, Kretschmer .... they were the idols of this generation. And it was much more adorable to become a fighter ass than to fight in the dirt of Russia. If I remember many of the historical volunteers came from other weapons (bombers, marine ....) so not all of them had to be new recruits.
Back to our story. The Nazi party is knocked and I would believe that many of the active members (at least the s,art ones) would be glad to find a place to disappear. Why not in the fighter squadrons. You go as Nazi9 and you come back as hero.
So I do not think that 20,000 volunteers is too much. But do not be afraid; that does not mean that Germany has 20,000 new pilots over night. The training camps would not have been able to train them and after all you need more than pilots.
The Germans would not change their stance in regards to the Allies. They would hate them for what they did, but surprisingly they haven't since held a true grudge for anything but the last few attacks (Dresden the most infamous). They would never jump into the other boat and dislike the Russians less, propaganda has kept the contempt, fear and anger pretty high. Besides the Germans were staunch... the bombing only made them rally around their leaders and themselves. If anything the bombing made them tougher and more liekly to resist the Allies (though you have factored that, you have it come from a fear prospect rather than from a sense of duty).
The opinion of the postwar Germans about the bombing is very difficult and a bit absurd. You should not judge the war Germans by that!
What was the stance of the Germans? The Entende nations put all the blame of WW1 on Germany (which Germans did not agree) and punished them by Versailles. The conditions of Versailles were very hard – Germany should never be able to become a power again. Although many Germans may have thought that WW2 was necessary they surely had no illusions that the Allies would give them the blame again and that they would try to punish Germany even harder.
Although it was not obvious in 1943 that Germany had lost the war people started to think what would be if ... ..
Because of propaganda and because of the terrible war crimes Germans did in Russia they could expect that the Soviets would have bloody revenge. So they feared Russia more than the western allies. Germany had not done much against GB (compared to other nations) and nothing against the US. Both were civilised nations like Germany. So maybe there could be a compromise.
Hamburg showed that the western allies were not only trying to fight the German army but also to kill as many Germans as possible. Hamburg was not an accident, it was well planed and the target was the population. So if Germany would surrender it was very likely that the Allies would try to kill the German population completely. It sounds strange but you know there were plans in this direction.
Another point: Stalingrad was a nightmare, but the Wolga is hundreds of km away. Hamburg is not. Millions of refugees run all over Germany and spread the news. So the thread from the bombers was much more real than the thread from the Russian tanks.
The German leaders would never consider their own bombings to be terrorbombing outright. The practice was to bomb when an enemy was on the verge of breaking, so a need for a costly citybattle was averted. In Britain it was a little different, here the Lufwaffe actiavely tried to hit the industry. Coventry was important in the this regard, and in London they targeted the docks with their large stores of supplies and such. To them the industry and other strategic targets were first, any loss of life (and thus a lowering of morale) was just a bonus so to say. The Allies was directly opposite, kill civilians, destroyed industry was just added benefit.
At the beginning. Yes. After the attack against Berlin Hitler announced and started terror attacks. Finally the V1 and V2 were only for revengeand so they were named. (Vergeltung)
Also they would not turn tail too and look to the east. They would still want a peace with the west. Whiel they did not have the pathological hatred of the Communists that Hitler had, they most certainly were Paternal Autocrats (played HOI you know what I mean). They didn't like the Russians and Communists either, thinking they were going to be wholly unreasonable and brutal. They would jsut have preferred to stay well away from war with the SU alltogether, but now it is the priority.
They would not care about communism. It was much easier to make peace with the Russians. If the Germans were able to beat the Red Army Stalin would probably have had to agree. The Germans could fight the Russians. That was the difference. There was little they could do against GB and the US. The bombing of London was ridiculous compared to the raids of the RAF. The submarine war was lost. So best case scenario would have been a victory in Italy.
I think a peace with Russia was more likely. A peace with the Western Allies was much easier after a peace with Stalin.
They would understand that the bombing was only a means to get a stronger bargainingchip, that the Allies would prosecute a strong war for as long as the war was on.
No. Bombing never helped to get peace. This is what the Germans understood: the Allies want a unconditional surrender and they want to kill as many Germans as possible. So guess what they will do if we capitulate?
The Allies attacked Hamburg after Hitler was gone, after the Germans had stopped the war of the Atlantic and the raids over Britain.
If they wanted to improve their chances they could have demonstrated their military strength in Italy.
We have now the situation that both sides want to have peace. However there is a lot of mistrust on both sides. And the Western Allies do not have a clear concept for the post war architecture. So they keep on bombing hoping that would solve their problem. And both sides think they can improve their position by military means. So right now I think there are little chances for peace. That does not mean that the door is closed for all times.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Not exactly. Rokossovsky is north, the Vatutin and in the south Konev.
Our sector is much smaler. Charkow is still occupied by the Germans!
How can you post this map. Can you teach me? Or can you post mine? I think it would be great if we all had the same picture!
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
Franconicus, could you email me those power point slides? my hotmail should be in my profile. Thanks.
Sure! I will send them on Monday or Tuesday.
Free delivery for Christmas:san_cool:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Thanks Franconicus!. Oh, and the only way I know of(yeah I'm a powerpoint novice) would be to take a screenshot of the slide and then host it using, say, imageshack
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
This is the past:
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie11zd.jpg
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie23gf.jpg
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie35rd.jpg
And this is present:
https://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie41hz.jpg
Hope everybody can see it!
Thanx discovery!
STALIN IS COMING!
August 9th. Zhukov and the leaders of the three Fronts meet to discuss the situation.
“Comrades! I just had a phone call from Stalin. He urges us to cross the Dnjepr and to take Kiev as fast as possible. He wants to have the town before he meets Churchill and Roosevelt. He will visit us next week to observe our progress. I’d like to discuss what plan we want to show him. But before we talk about strategy give me a status report.”
Rokossovsky: “General Zhukov! On Friday and Saturday there was heavy rain. On Sunday it stopped raining but it was still very cloudy. Today’s forecast is more sun shine and during the week it will become warmer. So we will have ideal weather for air operations.
During the last days there was little activities of our air armies. Despite the rains our engineers managed to keep supply running. The railroads are fixed now. The front troops have now infantry and artillery. The lost tanks are replaced by new ones from the front reserve.
I gave the 70th Army order to attack Tschernihiw. There first group reached the German positions at the evening of August 5th. It attacked the German line immediately and managed to take the Germans by surprise. It broke through. It kept on pushing all night long, penetrated the town and managed to take the road bridge. The Germans tried to blast it but there is only little damage.
Next day we tried to bring reinforcements cross the river and repair the bridge so that it can carry tanks too. During the whole day the bridge and both sides were under constant fire. The Germans have a lot of artillery. The Germany also attacked with infantry and there were severe losses on both sides. In the evening of August 6th the first tanks crossed the bridge. The next two day we tried to enlarge the bridgehead, but in vane. The Germans, the 47th Tank Corps of the 9th Army, are very strong. We think that they have 50,000 men in or near the town. They have a lot of artillery but did not use tanks so far. They fight our tanks with ATGs and mines. Currently we have POWs of the 6th Infantry Division and the 245 and 904 Assault Tank Det 904.
70th Army destroyed 11 Assault Tanks. It lost 6,000 men and 28 tanks. The current combat strength is 90000 men, 1660 guns, 97 tanks.
The Germans have still most of the northern part of the town as well as the railroad bridge and the some houses at the southern bank. We will start a new attack today and hope that the air force can give us enough support to break the German resistance. But I doubt that we are strong enough to take the town quickly. Germans are strong and they are willing to give us a fight now.
60th and 2nd Tank Army are ready to attack. They are rested and have enough fuel, ammo and fuel to start an attack. However our stock is still small. Together the have 130,000 men, 2,000 guns and 580 tanks.”
Vatutin: “1st Ukrainian reached the Kiev front too. Our spearhead is the 38th and 40th with 140,000 men, 2,800 guns and 390 tanks. Behind them there are two Guard Armies, the 6th and the 7th with 160,000 men, 3200 guns, 42 SPG and 139 MLRs. The reserve is formed by the 69th and 1st Tank Army, 90,000 men, 1,300 guns and 630 tanks. All these armies are well equipped and ready to attack.”
“Excellent! Konev, what is the 2nd Ukrainian doing?”
“We finally reached the Dnjepr too. 5th Guard Army and 5th Guard Tank Army are ready to strike. They have 130,000 men, 1800 guns, 800 tanks, 26 SPGs and 92 MRLs.”
“Brilliant! So everything is ready for the big strike! Before I fix our strategy I want to hear your proposals.”
Rokossovsky: “All of our troops are ready to attack Kiev, which is definitely the key to success in this campaign. So let us stick to our plan. Let me cross the Dnjepr in the north and Konev in the south of Kiev. We will cut off the town while Vatutin starts a frontal attack. If the Germans will not run away we will own this town within two weeks!”
Vatutin does not agree:”Rokossovsky, we have three fronts here with more than half a million men concentrated in a small area. We do not need them all to attack one single town. And we should disperse our troops. So this is my proposal. Let Rokossovsky’s 60th and 2nd Army turn northwards and cross the Desna right in the middle between Kiev and Tschernihiw. The German position will not be very strong there. Then they can cross the Dnjepr too and even support the Tschernihiw battle. And the German will have to remove troops from the Kiev front.
Additionally let Konev turn south. Let him cross the river north of Tscherkassy and the attack this town from both sides. In the meanwhile I will attack Kiev frontal. I have enough men, guns and tanks for a successful fight in the town. And once Rokossovsky and Konev are on the right bank of the Dnjepr the battle will be won.”
Rokossovsky replies: “No, that is far too dangerous. We may not splinter our forces. Did you think what would happen if we cross the river so far in the north and you are attacked by the German Tank Armies?”
Vatutin: “Sure! I would stand until you are in their back!”
Zhukov asks Konev: “What do you think?”
“I think Vatutin is right. But his plan is not ambitious enough and he forgets one thing. Our flanks are vulnerable. Belarusian front and mine have a flank of more than 250km each. The enemy must be foolish if he does not see. So this is my proposal. Let Belarus turn north, cross the Desna, the Dnjepr and the Prypjat. Let them take Tschernihiw. Then they can turn south to help Vatutin or they can turn east to meat Popow’s Bryansk Front. In the meantime I will cross the Dnjepr and take Tscherkassy as Vatutin propose. But then I will turn south and cross the Bug as soon as possible. I will operate in the rear of the German Heeresgruppe Süd. While their right wing collapses Vatutin will take Kiew and the Germans are lost.”
Rokossovsky: “Didn’t you say that our flanks are vulnerable. What you want to do is suicide!”
Konev: “Wait a second. If you take Tschernihiw this would help to secure our north flank. But of course I know we have to do something to make them stronger. So listen! First, order 3rd Ukrainian Front to attack Charkow. This would shorten my flank, ease supply and pin additional German forces. Then my flank four armies will move south to the line Charkov, Polatawa, Tscherkassy. Again this will ease supply and raise pressure on the German troops, especially the 1st Tank Army and the 6th Army. Then transfer the 1st GdTk Corps and the 20th Tk Corps from Bryansk Front to our corridor. Of we use them as a strategic reserve they can stabilize both flanks.”
Zhukov: “This is really a very interesting plan. But isn’t it too ambitious. I doubt that our air force will be able to support all of these operations. And if we take the two corps away from Bryansk Front they would loose all their offensive capabilities.”
Konev: “So what? Belarus operating at their open left flank, 1st Ukrainian taking Kiev and 2nd Ukrainian running in their rear and advancing to the sea, that should be enough offensive even for Stalin. But we can change the plan. Leave the two tank corps where they are but order Popow to advance to Gomel.”
Zhukov shakes his head: “Thank you for your ideas. I will think about it and tell you our strategy this evening. Please do not forget Stalin. I want you to prepare detailled information about combat strength and all intelligence information.”
What will Zhukov order?
1. The Rokossovsky Plan: Make a concentric attack on Kiev?
2. Vatutin’s Plan: Let Rokossovsky cross the Desna between Kiev and Tschernihiw and let Konew cross the Dnjepr between Tscherkassy and Kiev. Then let them take Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy and turn to Kiev. In the meantime Vatutin will attack the town from the east side.
3. Konev’s plan: Let Rokossovsky turn north and cross the rivers. Let Vatutin take Kiev. Let Konev cross the Dnjepr between Kiev and Tscherkassy. Then let him advance as fast as possible south to cross the Bug and finally reach the sea.
3a. Order the 3rd Ukrainian to attack Charkov. Call for reinforcements from Bryansk Front.
3b. Order Bryansk and 3rd Ukrainian to attack.
3c. Let both stay where they are. Let us first kill defeat the German tank armies. Then it is time for the other fronts to join.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
1) Decisive strength at the decisive point
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I think I would go for 1 as well. This is as much about politics as it is about military achievement. Stalin sees Kiev as key for political pressure on the Allies, so let's concentrate on getting across the Dnjepr and taking Kiev.
My main concern is the southern flank of the drive to Kiev. It looks a bit open. There appears to be no german troops there - a big gap between the 13th and the 7th - but that might not be the case. Perhaps we should get the 2nd and 3rd Ukranian to investigate and, if there is a gap, exploit it to pull troops from Kiev. However, keeping the troops as concentrated as possible is critical, as there has still to be a major battle with the Germans.:san_grin:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Thanks for the maps Franc! I believe Stalin wont accept any other plan then number 1).So number 1 it is.:san_wink:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Do I hear one voice? Must be the Christmas mood :san_laugh:
Let's see if Kraxis agrees :san_undecided:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Do I hear one voice? Must be the Christmas mood :san_laugh:
:
Three wise men just before Christmas....spooky!!!:san_laugh:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
:san_wink: Kraxis is too late. So he has to accept the desicion :san_grin:
THE SILENCE IS OVER
July 29th: German government starts a propaganda campaign regarding crimes of the government of Adolf Hitler.
August 6th: Italian workers strike at Torino and Milano.
August 9th: German 17th Army starts operation ‘Kriemhild’, the clearance of the Kuban bridgehead.
August 10th: Stalin visits the front at Kursk. He says: “Victory is close! Days of fascism are numbered. They are retreating everywhere. Now there is no time to hesitate and worry about victims! Now it is time to act and win the war” He insists that 1st Ukrainian penetrates the city until August 20th. He will meet Churchill and Roosevelt at Stalingrad on September 1st. Then Kiev has to be liberated.
August 10th and 11th:
Fighting all along the front line hits its first peak. The Soviet armies start their operations to liberate Kiev. German troops start a counter operation at the northern sector. Hundreds of airplanes on both sides try to support their ground forces and there are dog fights everywhere.
At Tschernihiw the 70th Army tries to enlarge the bridgehead. The operation is stopped by German infantry. German Stukas (StG2) attack the artillery positions of the 70th Army. The situation becomes critical when infantry of the German 46th Tank Corps cross the Desna at the seam of the 70th Army and the 65th Army and threatens the rear of the 70th. They can be stopped by artillery fire and reserves of the 70th Army. 47th Tank Corps suddenly attacks the Russians in the town. It brakes through the Russian lines and pushes into the artillery positions. A brave counter attack of the 65th Army manages to stop the Germans and rescues the rest of the 70th Army.
North of Kiev the 60th Army attacks the German 23rd Corps on the other side of the Desna. Il2 and level bombers support the operation. The 60th Army manages to cross the river and built a makeshift bridge. 2nd Tank Army prepares to cross too. 23rd Corps withdraws.
East of Kiev 40th and 38th Army bombard the defensive position of the 31st Corps. Soviet level bombers join. The city of Kiev is bombed too.
South of Kiev the 5th Guard Army crosses the Dnjepr. They get strong support by the air armies. The German 13th Corps is forced to retreat. 5th Guard Tank Army waits for there operation. They are attacked by the Sturzkampfgeschwader 2 ‘Immelmann’. Hauptmann Rudel and his comrades destroy 20 Soviet tanks.
The armies of the 2nd Ukrainian which form the southern front advance south. Their target is the line Tscherkassy, Poltawa, Charkow. Their recon detachments spot German units near Tscherkassy and Poltawa.
The Red Air Armies’ focus is the support of the river crossing operations and the bombing of Kiev. The bombers are attacked by German interceptors of the JG51 and 52 during their approach and departure. The German bomber squadrons KG4 and KG51 bomb the railroad system in and near Konotop. KG1 and KG3 attack roads and installations in the rear.
Zhukov discusses the situation with his staff at Vatutin’s HQ near Kiev.
“Excellent news, Gentlemen! Stalin is gone and the battle finally started. From the prisoners we took during the last days we have a much better picture of the German positions. Look, the 9th Army is here, north of Kiev on the other side of Desna. The area of Kiev is occupied by the 2nd Army. 4th Tank Army is still missing. Probably it is south of Kiev.
Our offensive against Kiev goes very well. Congratulation to Belarus and 2nd Ukrainian for the crossings of the Desna and Dnjepr. Well done! We are in the ‘Gothenwall’. Now we have to bring our tank armies across the river and push through the German defence. Vatutin is ready for the frontal attack, too. I guess, it won’t take long until we take Kiev.
Belarusian Front has some problems at Tschernihiw. We must keep an eye on it!”
Rokossovsky adds: “We may not underrate the German operation in the north. 70th and 65th Army may not be able to hold it for long. 70th is crippled and 65th enfeebled. We have to send reinforcements. Belarusian cannot continue to raid against Kiev and defend his northern flank. We need some help. I ask Vatutin to send me the 1st Tank army and the 69th army. Then we can repel the Germans.”
Vatutin: “We should not touch our reserves before the battle started. I have to make a frontal attack. God knows how big the casualties will be. I do not want to get stuck because we diversified our reserve. Why don’t we call the air force to solve this little problem?”
Rokossovsky: “You know that the air force is already overextended. They have to support the river crossings, the frontal assault and to protect our flanks and the supply. They cannot fulfil every task. They suffered severe casualties during the last day and if we overtax them they will soon be exhausted.”
Konev: “Rokossovsky is right. We have to protect our flanks. And please do not forget the south! We spotted some German units there but we still do not know what is going on there. So this is what we should do: Send the 1st Tank Army north to repel the German attack. Send the 69th south to reinforce our armies there. Let the 3rd Ukrainian attack Charkow now. Charkow is almost cut off. We should easily take the town. This will help us in the south. And let the air force concentrate on Kiev and on the supply!”
Vatutin: “No! That would be a big mistake! Do not dissolve the reserve. If we follow your plan we all our forces would be engaged. We would have nothing to react!”
Konew: “Well, we could ask Stavka to send us new armies. If we transfer the 1st GdTk Corps and the 20th Tk Corps from Bryansk Front and get 35th Guard from Stavka reserve we could build a strong task force which we could place south of Konotop.”
Zhukov sighs: “Stalin will not be happy if we demand more troops! This would also mean to use all of our reserves at Kiev.”
What are your judgement?
I. The Soviet generals are underrating the German operation at our northern wing. We should call back the armies which are currently crossing the Desna and the Dnjepr.
II. No, they are right! The Soviets are strong enough to repel any German attack. We have to take Kiev!
1. Rokossovsky’s plan: Transfer two armies from 1st Ukrainian to support your right wing.
2. Vatutin’s plan: Keep your reserve and let the air force handle the German attack.
3. Konev’s plan: Transfer one army to the north and one to the south. Let 3rd Ukrainian start their operation to Charkow.
a) Ask Stavka for more armies.
b) No we have more than enough!
https://img358.imageshack.us/img358/...handout9mh.jpg
I wish you a peaceful christmas :san_wink:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
The Russian way...
II
3b
It is obvious the Germans will do something, or else they wouldn't have sent 47th in this early. It would never have been able to do anything more than local achievements alone in its secotr (too far from the decisive point), clearly it is a start of something bigger.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I think Kraxis is right.I choose 3b also. The Germans seem to be way too static on their defence. Btw when do we get to play the Germans again?:san_wink:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
The Russian way...
I (ehhh what does this do?)
2nd Tank Army and 5th Guard Tank Army won't cross the rivers; 60th Army and 5th Guard Army will come back. That means Belarusian Front and 2nd Ukrainian stop attacking Kiev.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Oh in that case I reverse the first...
The Russians haev never been good at stopping their own attacks when they went well. They would protect the attacks but not halt them completely.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
I think Kraxis is right.I choose 3b also. The Germans seem to be way too static on their defence.
You are really fast today. But do you chose I or II?:san_huh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Btw when do we get to play the Germans again?:san_wink:
You have to stay with the Russians until I do not know what to with the Germans. :san_grin:
By the way, in Kraxis play you made Hitler win the war. Now do the same for Stalin :san_tongue:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I take the option II.~:) There is no turning back at this point now. But i would still like to express my worries.Soon we are starting an frontal assault on Kiev and we are making those bridgeheads on both sides also.If i think myself as an German commander i would infact let the Russians cross the rivers and becouse the bridgeheads will be hard to defend and supply those can be turned into deathtraps.If the German center at Kiev can stop our center(Which i think is highly possible). A gathered Assault on our flank can lead to an biggest encirclement in the whole war.We have to remeber that our armies are between two major rivers.If i would worry about our flank it would be the Southern flank.:bow:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Unity is strength. Now in the middle of the roaring cannons you make quick and consistant decisions. Congrat! Hope they are right too :san_laugh:
kage, you sound just like Model. I strongly support the plan - but I have strong worries just in case we will fail :san_grin:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I have a day off work and the main battle begins.
I am in broad agreement with everybody. I to have concerns about the southern flank - not a lot of information. However we must remember that the German line is stretched from what it was due to the large salient created. So press on, but be aware of what might happen. Also, remember, the political objective is Kiev and crossing the Dnjepr.
Christmas greetings to everybody - are we having a holiday, or do we have to sneak off to the computer occasionally!!:san_laugh:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I did not want to post another one this year. But due to your quick response here is the next one.
I do not think thatthere will be another one this year. So relax and enjoy your holiday. Of course I would be pleased if the discussion goes on.
By the way: you not only can chose 1, 2, ... you can also make own proposals.
So mery christmas :san_smiley:
STRIKE AND COUTERSTRIKE
August 12th. Zhukov decided in favour of Konev’s proposal. The coming days will show if he was right.
The struggle with Kiev is getting bigger and bigger.
The 60th Army completely transferred to the right bank of the Desna. Although the German 23rd Corp tries to repel it they can even expand the bridgehead and reach the Dnjepr. A first push across this river failed but 60th will try it again this night. 2nd Tank Army will start to cross the river Desna tomorrow. All operations are strongly supported and shielded by the Russian air force.
In the south the 5th Guard Army finishes to cross over the Dnjepr. Although they are attacked from the 13th Corp in the north and 52nd in the south they manage to stand up. This bridgehead is supported by strong air units too. More troops are crossing the river. The 5th Guard Tank Army is supposed to cross tomorrow. German aircrafts make massive raids against both armies and the bridge. German Stukas attacks the 5th Guard Tank Army all day long. During night level bombers attacks both banks and damaged the pontoon bridge. The bridgehead is under constant fire of the German artillery.
1st Ukrainian finally starts the frontal attack. Two days of bombardment destroyed the barb wire barricades, demolished the mines and demolished the positions of the defenders. The defenders, one Hungarian and two Romanian divisions struggle hard against the Russian assault. They are supported by strong artillery fire. Especially the Nebelwerfer tear holes in the rows of the Soviet assault groups. In the afternoon the Soviets break in. An immediate counter strike of German reserve clears the situation. At night the artilleries of both sides fire on the enemy’s position again. Tomorrow 40th and 38th Army will continue to attack.
Soviet air force tries to support these operations as good as possible. Ground support planes attack the German artillery positions while level bombers attack the city. The German concentrates a lot of AAA at the Kiev area, casualties are high.
In the north the German tank forces continue their advance. 70th Army and 65th Army can not stop the German tanks. German Luftwaffe constantly attacks the Russian armies. After high casualties they have to withdraw eastwards. During night the 1st Tank Army arrives and is ready to step in tomorrow.
In the south our armies reach the German positions at Tscherkassy and Poltawa. The Germans repel an attack at Poltawa. The Russian army, which does not have the order to take Poltawa, retreats. 69th Army is marching south to strengthen the southern flank. Air patrols spot German troops with tanks moving in Tscherkassy. They probably get ready for an attack towards Kiev.
The German bombers interrupt the railroads round Konotop. The Soviet fighters are not able to stop the Germans attacking our convoys. Many planes are shot down on both sides. At the moment it is impossible to get adequate supply.
A German fighter manages to shoot down seven Soviet planes during three sorties at one day. Due to the painting on his plane his Soviet opponents call him ‘Black Devil’. They try to avoid crossing his path.
3rd Ukrainian starts the operations to conquer Charkow. Malinowsky’s troops reach the gates of the town.
Konev looks at the daily reports. The 5th Guard Army is doing a good job. The crossing of the Dnjepr was much easier than expected. Rokossovsky is still on the other side. If he orders the 5th Guard to advance they may be the first to reach Kiev and to take the town. Stalin would be pleased.
On the other side it might be better to wait for the 5th Guard Tank army. With the combined force of the two Guard armies success is certain. But that means that the 5th has to stay in the narrow bridgehead for two more days. And the Germans try everything to weaken this army. Bombing and artillery bombardment causes already casualties.
And what about the news of German tanks at Tscherkassy. Maybe it is not true. Konev knows that rumours and wrong messages belong to every operation. But if there is a strong tank unit at his left flank this may cause a lot of trouble. Maybe he should fix this problem first. And if he took Tscherkassy he would control a strategic bridge. However, this could take some time. And probably Rokossovsky will win the race to Kiev.
1. We must leave the bridgehead before the German Luftwaffe tears us limb from limb. Order the 5th Guard Army to break through in western direction while the 5th Guard Tank army crosses the river.
2. There are German tanks near Tscherkassy. We have to eliminate them before we attack Kiev. Order the 5th Guard Army to advance south along the bank of Dnjepr and attack Tscherkassy. Order the 5th Guard Tank Army to turn south, too, to march along the left bank and attack Tscherkassy from the other side.
3. We should not start the decisive operation before we have all our forces crossed the river. Order the 5th Guard Army to wait until the 5th Guard Tank is at the right bank.
https://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie61yu.jpg
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
For me - a version of 2. Expand the bridgehead, pushing south and west, while getting the 5th Guard tank over the river as well. To push for Kiev full on while still so stretched is foolhardy. Like I have said before, I worry about the southern flank - I want to know what is there. Hurry up the 3rd Ukrainian as well.
Merry Christmas to every body and a Happy New Year - let battle recommence in early January.:san_smiley:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
I also pick the option number 2. Merry christmas and happy new year fellow arm chair generals!:medievalcheers:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
The tanks are just a rumor. Go with 1, and charge foward.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
It seems odd really... The Germans are using what appears to be two Corps in the north and what I guess to be another two in the south. They can't possibly be enough to cut off this many Russian forces.
UNLESS!!!! Unless they are the 'forgotten' armoured SS troops. We haven't heard of them since the great pullback.
So the problem is that we don't know what is down there. If they are just some generic panzer formations it is not likely they can do enough damage, and it could even be a great benefit that they are not in the way of the attack. But if they are the three strong SS divisions plus whatever, then it could turn into a major disaster.
What to do... what to do...
Well, there was a notion that the SS forces were going to Italy and Germany.
I chance it and say #1.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
UNLESS!!!! Unless they are the 'forgotten' armoured SS troops. We haven't heard of them since the great pullback.
#1.
I thought they had been spread around the other armoured units - Manstein would need to dilute this Hitlerite powerbase. but I still wonder about the southern flank.:san_smiley:
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
I thought they had been spread around the other armoured units - Manstein would need to dilute this Hitlerite powerbase. but I still wonder about the southern flank.:san_smiley:
That was part of my reasoning for #1, but it is too uncertain. Sending some to Italy would be a way to spread them out. But remember loyal Sepp Dietrich, he had a strong will (and that was pretty much it for him) and a good deal of loyalty in his men. I'm sure he could have kept them together.
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Re: Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR
On the subject of the SS-reading through the previous segment I believe the SS isn't there. They will remain together
Quote:
Gestapo and SD will be suspended. The SS will convert to a military organization. All members get a military training by the Wehrmacht and will be integrated in new SS divisions. Most of the grades will come from the Wehrmacht. The SS divisions will be integrated completely in the Wehrmacht organization.
. Many went to 'probhation companies' now Franconicus said that
Quote:
The captured were pardoned. They are now in so called probation companies and have the chance to redeem them. Half of them is on the way to Naples, the rest is on the transport to Kiev.
If that means probhation companies then you have a group of 3500 SS troops who may not even be together. But if that means total SS Divisions(I have doubts to that) then you have a bigger problem. But we also have this little tidbit
Quote:
Berger is now leading the transformation of all other SS formations to combat units. In six weeks the first units will be sent to the front.
-That's July 14. This segment is dated Aug. 12 that is about 4 weeks. So the Russians have 2 weeks to operate before any signifigantly powerful SS units show up.
So I'm with Kraxis-#1, I don't believe we're facing enough to create a serious threat of encirclement-but if good Franconicus would be willing to give us a general idea of what's in the area. (Germans a short list of corps-panzer/infantry/motorized Russians a list of armies- Guard/Regular Tank/Infantry)