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1C
2C
3A
4B
I think now would be a good time to resume our long-term strategy discussion. We've won a minor victory, but If we try to sink the British one battleship at a time, the war will be over before we are finished. Does anyone have an idea about what the British strategy is, based on their actions during our last engagement?
You only know that Furious is an odd ship. She is a Large Light Cruiser, almost as big as some battleships, weighing in at 22,000 tons fully loaded. And that her original armament was to be two 18 inch guns. You also know that her capacity won't be great.
Well it seems like the British want to lead a large portion of our force out into empty water and then trap it, even if they have to take initial heavy losses. Since they have the advantage in terms of numbers they can afford to trade a couple of ships for the chance to encircle, trap, and annihilate us.
Then again their recent failure could convince them to try something different, or they could decide that two battleships is a small price to pay for a near encirclement of much of our heavy surface forces.
I believe historically the Ark Royal was in the Med at this time. Do we have any indication if that's still the case, given that we're causing more trouble than we did in real life? If I were the RN team I'd be trying to get it to the North Sea, just like we've been trying to influence the use of the U-boat fleet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
I like the idea of attaching a Zep or two for air defence and spotting next time we aim for a fleet engagement.
Given the rate of crew replacement and repair times I'd like to go for a roughly 50:50 mix of 1 C and D - this should be enough to get all the ships fully manned by the time they are repaired.
Considering the British strategy - do they need to do anything other than contain us to win? Unless we actively pose a threat to them they have no real motivation to risk battle with us, so the onus remains on us to provoke them, but on our terms. Though it may be the opposing team wants glory and will therefore be aggressive.
Indeed, but it is still there. As you the British commadner has no direct control over deployment over the forces outside the Grand Fleet, but like you he might use influence to gain special favours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius Clemens
how is the AA coverage of our naval bases and zep hangers?
Some comments:
1) Kraxis, you are really fast. One lazy weekend and I missed the whole battle!
2) Hail to our submarines!!
3) Don't worry about the carrier. This is not WW2, it is still WW1. They can be a pain for our Zeps but I do not think they can bother our ships.
Answers:
1) Manpowersituation. B: Pull them from the non-finished sailors from the trainingunits. We will be some weeks in the harbor and the ships will train them as good as possible!
2) Ships and repairs.
B: The sailings need two weeks and the docks four. Giving the docks priority could mean three weeks for all - perfect!
3) Warsituation.
A: Lead the 9 battleships of the reserve force on maneuvers and gunnerypractice. They never got any training while you fought your battle.
4) Zeppeliners.
A: Let them rest for four days and ten send them out once more. Full search.
The English are furious. They will make a mistake! We just have to wait and see. (Maybe a cup of tea or two!:laugh4: )
Quick post - no time. We should regroup over the next couple of weeks. Don't take crew from the light forces - they are too vital - if necessary use crew from ships under repair. Keep the Zeps on patrol - knowledge is power. Restart training - we can't overtrain.
2nd of March
Yesterday contained a lot of decisions for you, but you felt that you needed to deal with your problems fast, and as such you quickly ordered the proper replacements from the secondary forces. The first sailors arrived this morning. Their grizzled looks and powerful demeanor made it obvious they were engineers. While you don't know how they will do their morale, and that of the rest of the fleet is superb. Fewer than normal troubles are reported from the brothels and bars, everybody being quite happy.
While you would love to get the ships out faster, you know that the resources would be pulled from another place, and that it wouldn't be likely that any ships would be repaired faster. So you decided to just let the ships be repaired in time.
The unengaged forces from last battle were still in need of much needed maneuvers and gunnery practice, so you decided to take them out to do what you had intended to do last time.
While the crews of the other ships are satisfied and proud these ships are filled with crewmen spoiling for a fight, determined to do their best. Pride swelled in your heart when you boarded Kaiser and saw the sailors standing rank and strong and their officers crisply saluting you.
At midday you began to set out at the head of the line, but before you did you sent instruction to the zepperliner commander, Colonel von Brasch, that his forces are to rest mainly and only patrol the Heligolan Bight for British forces.
At evening you enter the traininggrounds and gunneryrange. You start out by practicing the Gefechtkertswendung, used so well at Jutland thrice. On the first turn the ships only just manage it, showing their rusty abilities. But by the third turn the ships fall into line easily.
This maneuver is only practical when the entire formation needs to turn 180 degrees quickly, and you realize that it might still be rather rigid. You end up improving on it by having every second ship turn opposite of the others, effectively creating two lines. This presents more guns on the turn and more targets for the enemy to fire at, and of course would be more confusing for the enemy. Afterwards the two lines could then act independantly or join up again. You practice the two forms during the night and both eventually turn out to be handled quite well. As you thought, the crews merely needed a recap of their previously trained abilities.
The entire day of the 3rd you practice gunnery, especially accuracy. While good your gunners tend to lose their targets after achieving hits, their straddles being too loose, at least compared to what you saw from the British battleships. So you focus on that for the next day. On that day you recieve a message from the zeppeliner V23 that it has spotted a British line of ships, unkown composition and size, though it estimates perhaps as many as 10 heavy ships and as few as five, sailing slowly across the Bight, clearly strutting their stuff. The zeppeliner stays with them until nightfall, itself almost immediately spotted due to the lack of clouds now that the air comes from the south.
The same day a torpedoboat steams up at you with a report from Intelligence about the British ships.
The spies across Britain has noted a lot of ships going into drydock, or being tied down for fairly long work. Three ships are at the London docks, two in drydock and in the north, between Firth of Forth and Scapa Flow another five ships are docked or in drydock. While in Scapa Flow the spies have detected barges with equipment and special crews for repairs on moveable ships. They also report that Scapa Flow reverberates with heavy gunfire once more.
On the 5th, after resuplying ammo you begin to train loading heavily, and then firing while performing battlemaneuvers, including the two defensive maneuvers. You think they might become important later.
On the morning of the 6th of March the zeppeliner V86 on the way to its patrol area that it has spotted an airship headed for you, about 20 nautical miles northeast of you. The enemy airship flees on a northeasterly direction. The zeppelinr captain is certain that it has spotted you given his own clear view of your smokecolumns, but he is also pretty certain that it doesn't know how big a force you have.
The zeppeliner Z22 has kept a watch on the British group at a great distance, and it does look like it might be moving again, but because of the lack of clouds he is heading away.
Now is a critical time once more. You have nine battleships, eager and proud, and also welldrilled from the last few days. But they are not your most powerful ships. But these guys might need a victory as well.
Directly east of your position in the Heligoland Gap, the only secure break in the minefields.
Unfortunately the rest of the fleet is completely unready to be called out. At best two light cruisers and five torpedoboats can reach you in time.
So what will you do?
1) The zeppeliners.
A: Have V86 do it's utmost to chase down the enemy airship, but have Z22 keep it's distance from the British forces. Let them believe V86 is the only zeppeliner out there.
B: Don't bother with deception. Send Z22 in closer, but the almost clear air might result in it getting shot down.
C: Halt V86, and keep it close (will be in a very good position for spotting later as well as being in a good position to chase the enemy airship off if it returns from another angle).
2) The surface force. You have 9 battleships, 8 light cruisers and 16 torpedoboats.
A: Continue with your practice. The British will not attack an unknown force.
B: Break out! The enemy won't suspect that, and even if he does you have a good chance of getting out of the Gap before he get there, letting you cross his 'T'.
C: Speed to the Gap but stay on the inside covering it with your line. But unfortunately the southern wind will play in favour of the British in terms of spotting (your smoke), but the low winter sun will help you as it too is to the south. Of course that only matters if they come at you.
1.B
2.B
We are outnumbered and the only way we are going to win is if we take chances. But if things go wrong then we should withdraw.
audacity above all :charge:
Come on Kraxis. that is very unlikely. Usually sailors destroy bars after a victory. If they are really quiet, this is an alarm sign :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
What do the other think about the strength of the Tommies?
We should engage, but on our terms so C - the other Zep is shadowing the English and close air support will help with spotting and keep the English airship away - and B. However, we must be cautious - these are our best ships and we have not yet come across the better English ships - the QEs and the R class.
The reports of all the damaged English ships shows the sucess of the operation - but I think it is overstated - I don't think we damaged that many ships. So, if this operation damages some more, then we are working towards parity. Our oponents are being too gung ho - we must exploit this.
i am worried by the weakening of the light forces by moving the crews - we must keep a close watch on this.~:cheers:
Mind you I haven't made my mind up just yet about what to do,but it just feels like a trap to me (I know I'm allways to cautious but hey we're in a group and there should always be someone pointing out the risks). So we should have an escape plan of some sort.
Agreed. I don't think the British are too enthusiastic about the conclusion to our last encounter. Sure, we fled the field, but they lost far more than we did. Unles their intelligence is inaccurate (unlikely) or they think we are cowards, they should not send a weak group to our waters. We need to know how powerful this British group is and whether there are any others nearby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr White
1C (seems like the best of both options)
2C
I agree with Ludens 1.c) and 2.c).We need to know what we are up against.
1 C
2 B
Let's hope for the best. These are not our best ships! Maybe they can win anyway.
Concerning the mine field: How big is it, how big is the gap, can we lay some more mines, how can we lure the English into the mines, how can we escape in case we have to?
Not at all. It isn't as if they have been quiet, just not as troublesome as before. Sullen drunk sailors tend to be more easily provoked than happy drunk sailors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
The minefield is in fact British, but they have by now laid so many mines that they themselves consider it dangerous. Besides they have previously lost ships to their own mines, so it is a big no-no for them.
The Gap is not a set thing, it moves about, but it is mainly to the east of the island of Heligoland. Your sweepers keep a stretch of water clean, about 2km wide. The British know just as well as you where it is mostly, but they can't afford to try to block it as it moves about.
1. C
If we are heading for another engagement (as it looks like we are), we'll need it for spotting.
2. B
I'd rather not risk getting such a large portion of our force bottled up inside the minefields. We need to keep our smaller fleet more concentrated than the enemy's larger fleet. Besides, we may or may not be outnumbered - we only know the enemy has between 5 and 10 heavies. If they have fewer, this may be a chance to chalk up another minor victory. If they have more, at least we should be able to inflict some damage as we escape.
Concerning the question of the British strategy, I find it interesting that in the first engagement they were quite spread out - some ships escorting a convoy, some in harbor, others sailing around in small to medium-sized groups, presumably on patrol. They may have been trying to lure us out in order to surround us, but they may have been simply trying to cover all their bases. Either way, their losses may have convinced them to concentrate their forces a little more.
However, with so many of their ships damaged, the force in Heligoland Bight is unlikely to receive large numbers of reinforcements quickly. That's yet another reason why we should make a break for it quickly.
Kommodus is right - we should give our enemy some thought. I think their strategy was to lure us out and surround us - if we had been more adventurious that was what would have happened. The big question to my mind is where are the English's best ships - the clash last week was with the "2nd division forces" - where are the QEs and R class and the better battlecruisers like the Lion. Maybe these are the forces training at Scapa Flow - are they training towards a more specific task? - or did they expect us to put a smaller force out to intercept the convoy and were unfortunate to run into the whole fleet. This all shows that currently we should broadly keep our forces together and remain cautious and wear down the English piecemeal. When we have come close to parity then we strike at the Channel ports with the King Kurt cunning plan!!~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
1C
2C
2C because staying inside the gap makes it difficult for the British to use flanking manouvers. If we lie long enough inside the gap we have some room to push forward slightly before presenting our broadsides to them, giving us an ability to counter our lack of range, plus we have a very good chance of a successful retreat even if we take much damage during the engagement. The engagement will thus be on our terms not theirs. In conclusion - a good chance to hurt them without losing too much on our own. But - and this is quite important - how many days have past since the last engagement? How many of our damaged ships have been repaired? Enemy spies on land should know how many ships we have in repair docks by now and possibly also how long it'll take to repair them. If we take too much damage today we might end up with too much of our fleet damaged to be able to counter a larger British attack. But we have to take some risks or we'll achieve nothing before the war ends, so an engagement on our terms although it could lead to problems, is something I have to favor.
The disadvantage in wind has to be compensated though, which is why we need to choose 1C to have some counter-measures against the enemy airship. I think we should however bring some more zeppeliners closer to have some more in case the enemy brings more airships to the place, but we shouldn't bring so many that the recon is compromised.
1)c
2)c
I agree legio 2c it is if i can change it
1)c
2)c
We Need Better Intel!
1) C: V86 will be needed to keep an eye on the movement of British forces. I suggest bringing one more Zeppelin into the area in case the British launching more airships to spy on us, though keep its profile low so the British won't realize the number of our Zeppelins. Z22 should also keep its distance at a respectable range. Be sure to have at least some of the rest of the Zeppelins ready for use in short notice.
2) The British, I assume, is enraged at our past victory and will be concentrating their forces on revenge and careful-but-aggressive attacks (or some grand plans?). I don't fully understand the choices but it seems to me that C is the compromise between the careless A and the overly cautious B, which might affect the eager sailors' morale -- after all, they come all this far, have been sharpening their teeth for the last few days, only to run from an unknown enemy? I presume C is the choice for us to prepare for battle, but also for maneuvers away from the British force if they prove to be overwhelmingly large, right?
Have the (a little impoverished) secondary forces ready for rescue operation, too, in case the up-and-coming possible engagement with this unknown force turns out to be a disaster. They can be sacrificed if it would save our major force.
Let us summarize:
- A part of the RN is sunk or damaged.
- Another part is out again. This gives us the chance to do more harm to them; by the way we will only play with our second class chips.
- So after the battle the RN propably has a shortage of active ships.
- We should use this in case our first class force is ready for another strike. We could start our operation with the Brummer. He could try to break through to the Atlantic. The Brits will surely try to catch it. So they have to send a couple of ships. This will reduce their reaction forces once more. Then we could strike. Attack the channel!!:2thumbsup:
I don't like the idea of trying to hide behind the minefield - it puts us at a severe tactical disadvantage - our manouvering abiliity is severely hindered as we will be almost static, our smoke will hinder our firing, the English will have the tactical upperhand giving them the choice of weither to attack or not and the possibility of concentrating on part of our line, if we are realatively static that will help the English shooting - faster ships are harder to hit - and finally the light forces will not be able to operate effectively as a screen. The gap is only 2 km - in naval terms that is like trying to fit a battalion in a phone box - we need room to move - the mines give us a safe haven, so with the Zep in close attendance we will be able to keep track of what is happening and repeat the sucess of our first engagement - a swift bloody nose then withdraw.~:cheers:
I am bit confused about what we are actually going to do. I thought option C means to head towards the gap, but do not enter it unless the British turn out to be too powerful for us. That means the British will have an easier time spotting us, but will have to look into the sun to hit us. We cannot afford to be caught in the open by a stronger force, but we also need to take opportunities when they present themselves. In this case, I think the British are trying for battle, so we should place ourselves in a position where we can easily extract from battle if things go wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kurt
Anyway, I do think we should get the two light cruisers and the destroyers here. At worst, they will provide something foir the British to shoot at while our Battleships make a run for it, at best they will make the British think more reinforcements are coming up.
C means you will cover the 'only' vector the British might have through the minefield. The Gap is quite narrow in terms of battlelines, so if the British find themselves inside it and you plugging their exit with a crossed 'T'... Well I leave you to your imagination.
The little force will be running for you right away, but it will be a seperate command. Let's call it Cover Squadron.
And Franconicus... shhh... I had plans.
See, the reason I object to 2) C is because the British might not attack us. We don't even know for sure if they outnumber us. However, if both sides reach the gap but stand off, then our options suddenly become very limited. Even if they end up having a smaller force, we won't be able to attack effectively through the gap - it would be like a TW bridge battle. That leaves half of our heavy forces essentially trapped, bottled up inside the minefields. This is great for the British, as they would have managed to split our fleet in two. They can just leave their ships in position until they bring up more of their much larger fleet.
I wouldn't assume the British are spoiling for a fight yet. They may be angered by the bloody nose we just gave them, but they also may be sobered and more cautious, wary of engagements in which they are unsure of victory, just as we are.
I will have to deal with the situations as they come... Since this very complex I am a bit under pressure. But not to worry, the broard plans are fanning out for both sides.
Though I'm beginning to understand the mentality of both sides now. I will have to cater to that
Besides, I passed my last exam for this semester today. YAY!:2thumbsup: But tomorrow morning I'm going on a cultural trip to Canazei in the Dolomites. I'm going to study the bavious of the elusive Homo Sapiens as it for no apparent reason goes up and down mountainsides. Of course I'm going to experiment a little with that myself.