Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
I feel that Duke Malcolm listed many measures that could fit under the category of "social stability".
What is a more suitable approach? Equality doesn't seem to be working, what is next? There are many thousands of people immigrating to the UK that have no trouble in integrating. Perhaps ensuring that we maximise people prepared to integrate whilst politely but firmly not admitting those that are known to cause severe difficulties would be a much more sensible method of ensuring social stability.
People can see what the UK is like very easily. Virtually all can visit if they want. Why come here and then decide what they want is what they left?
If a guest is present at a party is causing a fuss, they are asked to leave. The party does not focus on them until they are happy to the exclusion of everyone else.
~:smoking:
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Where does it come from? It doesn't appear to be based on where the person is from, their age or skin colour.
It is probably something to do with their values are quite different from those typically found in the UK: we let our women do what they want, relationships are not forced on couples, speech is free as are the majority of people's actions. Other religions are not as prescriptive, and so have little trouble adapting.
~:smoking:
in Turkey :
We let women do what they want, relationships are not forced on couples, freedom of speech is better compared to the past. And we are a 95-percent majority of Muslim community.
Remove your glasses.
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Turkey: one country. Known to be one of the most "Western" of Middle East states. Currently trying to gain EU membership. Currently trying to digest the massive tome that are the insane number of laws the EU is forcing Turkey to agree to (yeah, I'm a Eurosceptic).
Freedom of speech is better... yeah, hardly a great record is it? The EU had to get firm recently over arresting one person I seem to recall.
Your point is... Turkish integrate well? If that's it, great! As I said, anyone that integrates is welcome (just try to to fight with the Greeks, OK?)
Can you say the same about Iranians, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Iraqis?
Walking down Edgeware Road in London the only ones that catch my eye are the poor women dressed head to toe in black cloth. Fashion victim? Die hard Goth? No, another Muslim women - although if they're lucky they're allowed to be by themselves!!! :fainting: Now, I don't even see why it's required, as many Muslims just wear a headscarf, which is far more tollerable.
~:smoking:
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Turkey is a lot better than most other Muslim-Majority countries, possibly because of the greater liberal-minded European influence, and, while there are not many turkish immigrants here, the few that are integrate well and adopt the new society and mainly run kebab shops. The reluctance to integrate seems to come from the society whence the immigrants came, the more enforced and ingrained in their mind the more archaic parts of Islam are, then the less they integrate.
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Turkey: one country. Known to be one of the most "Western" of Middle East states. Currently trying to gain EU membership. Currently trying to digest the massive tome that are the insane number of laws the EU is forcing Turkey to agree to (yeah, I'm a Eurosceptic).
Freedom of speech is better... yeah, hardly a great record is it? The EU had to get firm recently over arresting one person I seem to recall.
Your point is... Turkish integrate well? If that's it, great! As I said, anyone that integrates is welcome (just try to to fight with the Greeks, OK?)
Can you say the same about Iranians, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Iraqis?
Walking down Edgeware Road in London the only ones that catch my eye are the poor women dressed head to toe in black cloth. Fashion victim? Die hard Goth? No, another Muslim women - although if they're lucky they're allowed to be by themselves!!! :fainting: Now, I don't even see why it's required, as many Muslims just wear a headscarf, which is far more tollerable.
~:smoking:
With the exception of Saudi Arabia and Iran, most governments in the middle east are secular dictatorships...Might as well quit trying to point the finger at Islam at every freakin' possibility...
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
But in many other Middle-eastern countries the society is quite devout, and follows the Kuran considerably for the societal rules. It is not the government enforcement but the societal indoctrination of Islam, and in particular those parts incompatible with more liberal European ways...
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
"Instead of sticking with successful efforts, you think that millions of taxpayers' sterling should be spent on helping a minority of immigrants integrate where most other immigrants are fine? I hope that your views do not represent those of "
I feel that Duke Malcolm listed many measures that could fit under the category of "social stability".
If the effort where successful then why the religious/cultural tension exist/buidling between these communities (certain European and Islamic immigrants)?
Errh...I don't try to represent any goverment but stating my opinnions, but you sure make it sounds like your views represent "Her Majesty's Government".
If a guest is present at a party is causing a fuss, they are asked to leave. The party does not focus on them until they are happy to the exclusion of everyone else.
If only they are guest... but they are immigrants, they are here to stay.
What is a more suitable approach? Equality doesn't seem to be working, what is next? There are many thousands of people immigrating to the UK that have no trouble in integrating. Perhaps ensuring that we maximise people prepared to integrate whilst politely but firmly not admitting those that are known to cause severe difficulties would be a much more sensible method of ensuring social stability.
Thats what most country do, but in any way if your are to accept these immigrants, you are responsible.
Again I would like to state my opinnion...I do not think implemment any specific religious laws is a good idea because it would only start accussations of special threatment and favourtism between groups. Neutral laws that helps protect all groups from any sentitive issues would be more desirable in the long run.
"IF" for some reason should a European goverment decides to implement religious law to help bridge the gap between communities...it would be better to, IMHO, review the content of the law before reacting. If every effort made by the goverment to help improving Islamic immigrants relation is viewed as "We are bowing to Islamic minority", will the relation between these communities ever improve, how long will it take to escalate into something undesirable?
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
"Instead of sticking with successful efforts, you think that millions of taxpayers' sterling should be spent on helping a minority of immigrants integrate where most other immigrants are fine? I hope that your views do not represent those of "
I feel that Duke Malcolm listed many measures that could fit under the category of "social stability".
If the effort where successful then why the religious/cultural tension exist/buidling between these communities (certain European and Islamic immigrants)?
Errh...I don't try to represent any goverment but stating my opinnions, but you sure make it sounds like your views represent "Her Majesty's Government".
I do not knowingly represent Her Majesty's Government nor the Scottish Executive. If their views are the same then it is entirely co-incidental.
The measures in place work well for the majority. It is only a minority, albeit a mostly Muslim minority, which is reluctant to integrate and causes tension.
Quote:
Again I would like to state my opinnion...I do not think implemment any specific religious laws is a good idea because it would only start accussations of special threatment and favourtism between groups. Neutral laws that helps protect all groups from any sentitive issues would be more desirable in the long run.
"IF" for some reason should a European goverment decides to implement religious law to help bridge the gap between communities...it would be better to, IMHO, review the content of the law before reacting. If every effort made by the goverment to help improving Islamic immigrants relation is viewed as "We are bowing to Islamic minority", will the relation between these communities ever improve, how long will it take to escalate into something undesirable?
But if it the main supporter of the law is the Islamic minority then it is bowing to the will of the Islamic minority. In the case with the recent Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill, many people opposed it, both athiest and religious, christians, comedians, freedom-fighters, liberals, conservatives. The main backer of the bill was the Muslim minority. Will this ease tensions? No, not if whenever we might criticise religions we face prosecution. It will increase tensions because people will face the threat of prosecution if they criticise Islam and if Muslims criticise Christianity they might face the same, although not many police constables would investigate the Muslims for it...
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
I do not knowingly represent Her Majesty's Government nor the Scottish Executive. If their views are the same then it is entirely co-incidental.
The measures in place work well for the majority. It is only a minority, albeit a mostly Muslim minority, which is reluctant to integrate and causes tension.
So they should be held with full responsibility whenever a situation arise and reviewing past effort for a better approach to help ease tension is not less desirable?
But if it the main supporter of the law is the Islamic minority then it is bowing to the will of the Islamic minority. In the case with the recent Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill, many people opposed it, both athiest and religious, christians, comedians, freedom-fighters, liberals, conservatives. The main backer of the bill was the Muslim minority. Will this ease tensions? No, not if whenever we might criticise religions we face prosecution. It will increase tensions because people will face the threat of prosecution if they criticise Islam and if Muslims criticise Christianity they might face the same, although not many police constables would investigate the Muslims for it...
If the bill is pass with support, it will ease tension. But the bill is rejected with only muslim minority backing it, so wheres the "Bow to muslim minority" sentiment coming from?
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Quote:
If only they are guest... but they are immigrants, they are here to stay.
Yes, my point basically. Why are they here to stay if they patently don't want to be in the country as it is. They should be guests with their right to remain reviewed, rather than once they are in be allowed to demand several changes.
If efforts are not successful, why should the onus be on the government to help an extremely small non-native minority? If you don't like it, then feel free to leave. I hear Pakistan has banned the type of protests that have been in Trafalgar Square...
I wish that we had a system closer to that of the USA: learn the language, swear allegiance to the Queen and fit in, work hard, and don't cause trouble. We've got enough lazy useless natives causing trouble without importing other countries' waste.
There are many groups in the UK that feel strongly on issues. Laws are not changed merely as they are extremely vocal. Why should the for Muslims?
And considering that in the UK the Monarch is the "defender of the faith" i.e. we are still a Christian country if anything laws should be to protect the Christians (oh, I'm agnostic by the way).
~:smoking:
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
I do not knowingly represent Her Majesty's Government nor the Scottish Executive. If their views are the same then it is entirely co-incidental.
The measures in place work well for the majority. It is only a minority, albeit a mostly Muslim minority, which is reluctant to integrate and causes tension.
So they should be held with full responsibility whenever a situation arise and reviewing past effort for a better approach to help ease tension is not less desirable?
What? I don't understand what you are trying to saying here.
Quote:
But if it the main supporter of the law is the Islamic minority then it is bowing to the will of the Islamic minority. In the case with the recent Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill, many people opposed it, both athiest and religious, christians, comedians, freedom-fighters, liberals, conservatives. The main backer of the bill was the Muslim minority. Will this ease tensions? No, not if whenever we might criticise religions we face prosecution. It will increase tensions because people will face the threat of prosecution if they criticise Islam and if Muslims criticise Christianity they might face the same, although not many police constables would investigate the Muslims for it...
If the bill is pass with support, it will ease tension. But the bill is rejected with only muslim minority backing it, so wheres the "Bow to muslim minority" sentiment coming from?
Either you did not read what you quoted or perhaps do not grasp the British Parliamentary System. The Bill was voted down (or amended, I can't remember) by the House of Lords, and the House of Commons voted for the Bill. The former House does not have to follow the party line since the peers' seats are secure -- they judge laws mainly on how they compare constitutionally, with human rights, with existing laws and with their own principles as well as taking some party advice. The latter House, whilst the MPs primary allegiance should be their constituents, most follow the party line to secure good favour with the Constituency Party and the Parliamentary Party and the Cheif Whip. The Labour (government) party line was to vote for the bill, but every other party voted against the bill. The will of the House of Commons does not reflect the will of the people, rather the will of the party with the largest majority, because the MPs follow party line. The First Lord of the Treasury just has to kow-tow to the Muslim wish, as he has done, and the party line is set as he wants it, so the House of Commons passes the Bill. The House of Lords is much weaker than the House of Commons and often just provides amendments (but occassionally votes bills down for good) so it can be ignored. Hence the passing of the Bill follows nothing but the will of the First Lord of the Treasury who may have bow to Islamic pressures...
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
So the bill was passed even with objections? ...Never the less I think(IMO) it may work well to prevent people from mocking each other beliefs and stir unwanted sentiment, for a start. Still it will help ease tension in its own way, if a person decides to go against the law and try to start "stiring things" (muslims, christian or whoever) he is going to get it from the law.
Like I say, other than introducing laws, other efforts to bring "muslim immigrant community" together with the rest, (which seems to be "the trouble") need more effort then just passing laws and building mosque.
And considering that in the UK the Monarch is the "defender of the faith" i.e. we are still a Christian country if anything laws should be to protect the Christians (oh, I'm agnostic by the way).
I don't see why a law that may be beneficial to social stability can be seen as a reason for "bowing to muslim minority" sentiments.
Why the different treatment and stero typing the said minority when there are similiar native so to speak to be "lazy" and "Useless". Why accept them into the country in the first place?
Anyway I am agnostic too. (not that the infomation is of any relevence to the disccusion.)
anyway... Reqoute
Edit: Ammendments on the original qoute
I do not knowingly represent Her Majesty's Government nor the Scottish Executive. If their views are the same then it is entirely co-incidental.
The measures in place work well for the majority. It is only a minority, albeit a mostly Muslim minority, which is reluctant to integrate and causes tension.
So they(muslim immigrants) should be held with full responsibility whenever a situation(riots, out right accusations etc.) arise and reviewing past effort for a better approach to help ease tension is less desirable?
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Now, I don't have much to add to the topic and I'm not particular fond of the European nationalism on a small boost lately due to the stupidity that is the Middle East govs, but, really, why can't I mock another person's beliefs?
That's the very basis of Freedom of Speech, no? Laws aren't supposed to force people to be nice to each other, just that they don't beat each other to death, or steal their stuff.
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
I think we should be allowed to mock within reason... insulting might be going a bit far (might).
Blasphemy is a stupid thing to codify in law... why?
Because there are plenty of religions that following what they normally do will be blashpemous to another and vice a versa.
Also why have a special set of laws for religion? What about the secular component of peoples lives?
I really don't think one set of ideas is automatically more worthy then another just because it has the title religion added to it (nor do I think that anti-religion is any better because of that tag)...
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
If every individual have self control, mature, socialy responsible and the right mindset, such laws wouldnn't be needed. The law is there to prevent people or groups who "may" have the "intention to stir emotions" and create further tension between "groups/communities".
Such laws had already been present in some multi-cultural nations for decades, of course there are also constant effort have been made to educate its people regarding such issues.
Lack of sensitvity from press or any incidents related to religious/racial groups can easily be exploited by religious extremist/nationlist/racist groups to further escalate the situation into a regional (if not gobal) incident, as we have seen in the recents months. Further more, in a situation where Islamic terrorist is still threatening social stability all over the world, social cohesive must be maintain. IMO such law is still meaningless if there is no constant effort made by the goverment to help minorities (who are conviently subjected to such issues by the majority) to "become part of the majority".
Especially when the notion of "Freedom of Speech" varies from the moral and intellectual understandings of individuals, it has been used too often as an excuse to further complicate the situation (stiring emotion in the process) everytime should such situation arise, usually lacking in spirit of the notion and idea.
We don't have go into detail regarding this topic, just visit the recent "Freedom of Speech" related topics in forums and newspapers to get a clearer picture.
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Further more, in a situation where Islamic terrorist is still threatening social stability all over the world, social cohesive must be maintain.
Wrong. Freedom must be maintained above all else, it is the oxygen of social life.
Re: Islamic Law comming to a European Nation near you.
Freedom is always curtailed, it is just that in many cases we are unaware as the bars have gone into our minds and so none are required.
I am not free to walk down the street naked just because I want to. I can't play loud music just because I want to. I can't even paint what I want on my own property, or give my money to whoever I want. In my job I am even further constrained in what I can and can not say, wear, and leave.
In fact, my total freedoms are limited to a large extent, but I don't mind; indeed I view it as normal.
Extremes that bend social conventions to too great an extent are liable to be labelled with a mental disorder, which in extremis can lead to the person being detained against their wishes as they are viewed as being a danger to themselves (extreme and unusual I concede).
~:smoking:
