Golden Horde!

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Hmm... I've never had problems with Halberdiers' morale... I mean even if I did, exactly who am I supposed to replace them with?

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Good question - if Halberdiers are that bad, then what units are best for flanking pinned cavalry units? Forget Swiss Halberdiers, if you don't happen to control Switzerland, they're not an option.

Personally I favour CFK, dismounted from either CK or crusading order Knights, but if those are not available I make do with the significantly cheaper Militia Sergeants. Faster and better in the desert as well (I also seem to remember that they have better morale?).

:bow:

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Originally posted by Asai Nagamasa
Faster and better in the desert as well (I also seem to remember that they have better morale?).

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IIRC they have also 0 morale, its just that they have much less armor and fatigue accumulates much slower on them (fatigue affects morale).

:bow:

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what units are best for flanking pinned cavalry units?

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The more important question is, what are you going to pin them with in the first place?

Eeerm... spears?

Chivalric Sergeants, Saracen Infantry,Feudal Sergeants (and Fyrdmen and Italian Infantry for the English and Italians respectively) are some of the best and readily available spearmen at your disposal. All spears have a large anti cavalry defence bonus. Polearms such as JHI, Halbs and CFK have a larger anti cavalry attack bonus. The trick is getting this to work in harmony and not wasting your expensive units by duelling it out on the field. This is especially important for those long drawn out battles where you have fatigue and enemy reinforcements to consider.

Spears fight best if simply placed in lines about 3 or 4 ranks deep (I tend to go deeper depending on how many units I have in a given battle - and to make their formation a bit tougher) on hold formation.

The trick is not to actually attack but leave the spears in place and let them do their work. Once the enemy becomes engaged with the spears, flanking units can be brought in to make short work of their opponents. This has a few advantages:

- Spears are usually cheaper than other units such as CFK or JHI and take fewer losses in this situation/role.

- The spears defend your missile units (and cavalry) from harm.

- This frees up your flanking units to do what they do best: destroying and breaking the enemy, which means they are not actually duelling with the enemy and can be pulled out once the enemy rout and directed at another target.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by gollum

IIRC they have also 0 morale, its just that they have much less armor and fatigue accumulates much slower on them (fatigue affects morale).

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Are we talking desert only now, or do you suggest that fatigue is caused by armor even in non-desert climates?

Personally I have no worries about sacrificing my halbs against flanking cavalry. MS are faster and make for better flankers, granted, but halbs are flank cover, not flankers. Better than MS for that role, but not versatile at all. Depends on what kind of battle you want wether you go MS or halb.

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Originally posted by Bondovic
Are we talking desert only now, or do you suggest that fatigue is caused by armor even in non-desert climates?

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Fatigue is caused indeed by armor in any terrain type, but at different rates. Desert rates are faster while in other terrains slower. However in any case after 25 minutes (or was it 20?) of battle all units drop to 2 bars (from 4) and return to that after having lost some. This impacts even more, in terms of fatigue induced morale penalties, heavily armored units with low morale in very long battles, like halberdiers against the horde.

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Depends on what kind of battle you want wether you go MS or halb.

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:bow:

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Originally posted by Vantek
:S this sounds absolutely impossible!! Pics?

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Sorry for the late reply Vantek, but because you didnt quote me i missed the question. Its actually very easy, and although i have not the game installed at the moment to make example screenshots i'll try to describe and demonstrate diagramatically with a plan (top down) perspective:

cav cav

sp sp

arb arb arb

As the enemy approaches you can engage him and rotate the spears for a few degrees either way (just prior or just after engagement); this will make them "turn" the enemy in such a way that they'll expose their flank to your arbalesters.

If you are afraid that the rotation will make your spear units vulnerable to rear charges in turn, you can use them in pairs, like so:

cav cav

spsp

arb arb

and do reverse rotations with each spear so that they protect their partners back while exposing the enemy's rear/flank to arbalester fire.

This formation works with decent/good morale spears against heavy cavalry heavy enemies and particularly well against the horde, especially in those instances that a lot of Mongol heavy cavalry enters the scene at once. Obviously its a bad idea against sword heavy armies as your spears will be routed.

Although it works in flat ground too, it works even better if the ground slopes in your favor, say from the top of the page towadrs the bottom in the above diagrams.

Buildings or clusters of building or forests can aid such a deployment as you can anchor the end of your battle line (that make it easier to guard against flanking or picking up your line progressively from there), or even deploy a bit behind them if you are facing heavy cavalry armies with sword and bow armies; this will slow down the enemy in order to reach you giving your bows and swords a fighting chance. If no such features are available you might want to choose a slope that is adjacent to the side edge of the map, and so this will provide a natural guard against flanking from that direction.

:bow:

PS The gap between spears in the first diagram is about the width of 2 full units, while the arbalesters should be space staggered with the spears and with a clear view to the gaps that form between them. Naturally you may want to seek to actively engage the incoming cavalry with your spears, seeking to protect the arbs and pin them in place, and let the bolts do the killing. Also dont neglect to have some distance between the arbs and the spears, if too close the heavy cavalry willpartially engage the missiles and if too far the arbs wont get enough punch and clear shot to deal lots of casualties as they should.

That's absolutely crazy. I cannot imagine how it's possible to use that in the middle of an actual chaotic battle...

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Chivalric Sergeants, Saracen Infantry,Feudal Sergeants (and Fyrdmen and Italian Infantry for the English and Italians respectively) are some of the best and readily available spearmen at your disposal.

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I guess what I have been getting at this whole time is how everyone is saying Halberdiers are expensive and have poor morale, yet the only reasonable alternative - Chivalric Sergeants - have similar cost, have the exact same morale, and all in all similar melee performance.

Whenever I've used spearmen I have been disappointed. Spearmen might last a little longer in melee, but they also lack killing power completely. I already find MTW battles often a bit too long, so out of two rouhgly equal options, I will go for the one that die faster but kill faster.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

That's absolutely crazy. I cannot imagine how it's possible to use that in the middle of an actual chaotic battle...

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It's simply enough in fact. In essence changing your army's facing causes the AI to change it's approach, this in turn causes them to expose their flanks.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

I guess what I have been getting at this whole time is how everyone is saying Halberdiers are expensive and have poor morale, yet the only reasonable alternative - Chivalric Sergeants - have similar cost, have the exact same morale, and all in all similar melee performance.

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OK some stats are needed:


Polearms

JHI:

Elite
Charge 4
Attack 5
Defense 3
Armour 3
Morale 8
AP
Anti Cav Attack 3
Anti Cav Defence 1
(Disciplined)
60 men


Halb:

Non elite
Charge 2
Attack 1
Defense 6
Armour 5
Morale 0
AP
Anti Cav Attack 3
Anti Cav Defence 1
60 men


Billmen:

Non elite
Charge 2
Attack 2
Defense 4
Armour 3
Morale 2
AP
Anti Cav Attack 3
Anti Cav Defence 1
60 men


CFK:

Elite
Charge 2
Attack 4
Defense 6
Armour 5
Morale 8
AP
Anti Cav Attack 3
Anti Cav Defence 1
20-40 men


Spears

Chivalric Sergeants/Saracen Infantry

Non elite
Charge 5
Attack -1
Defense 3
Armour 3
Morale 0
non AP
Anti Cav Attack 1
Anti Cav Defence 4
Large Shield
100 men

My memory is fuzzy on the stats for shields, but CS/SI get the full bonus from their large shields which should aquate to 2 points of armour and 2 points of defence at least. (I think the large shield gives 2 points and the small shield 1. The shield modifier value is then used to halve these on some units where the shield is only cosmetic and the unit already has enough armour anyway.)

This, combined with the larger unit size, makes CS/SI much better defenders than halberdiers, but weaker attackers.

The real downside to Halberdiers though is their morale and speed. They, along with CFK, are a full 2 points slower than CS/SI, walking/running/charging. CFK, even in smaller units, can be forgiven this as they have insanely high morale, elite status and an attack bonus of 4. Halberdiers' morale is such that by the time they've finished running (slowly) around in their armour they will be exhausted enough to rout. Exhaustion morale modifiers are serious for a unit that has no morale to start with:

"Very Tired" = -3 Morale
"Exhausted" = -6 Morale
"Completely Exhausted" = -8 Morale

To conclude, halberdiers would be better with 2 points take off their defence and amour and added to their morale. I would have taken another point from their defence and transferred it to attack also. This would have balanced them out into a worthwhile unit. As they are, Halberdiers are not really fitting their true role (anti cavalry polearms / shock troops) - in terms of raw stats they are far too defensively oriented which is their achilles heel.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Whenever I've used spearmen I have been disappointed. Spearmen might last a little longer in melee, but they also lack killing power completely. I already find MTW battles often a bit too long, so out of two rouhgly equal options, I will go for the one that die faster but kill faster.

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The whole idea of spearmen is that they lack killing power but make up for this in defensive capability. It is better to have 4 units of CS and one unit of Halberdiers on stand by, than having 4 units of halberdiers. This way the Halbs can make flank and rear attacks instead of doing all the fighting - to the point of exhaustion.

It's all down to personal choice of course.

:bow:

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Originally posted by Vantek
That's absolutely crazy. I cannot imagine how it's possible to use that in the middle of an actual chaotic battle...

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Its actually easy and can be done routinely - the spears screen your arbalesters when there is too much H.cavalry charging at once and the arbs do the killing. Add some armor piercing units to the plot when all enemy cavalry is engaged and there is no danger for you to be counterflanked and you are up for great results.

If you do not leave space in between the spears your arbs cannot be brought to bear on the engaged enemy - then it becomes a battle of attrition that the HC of the Horde may win. The gaps in the formation allow the arbs to get rid of them quickly and safely. Its either that or throw in ap units that can kill off the Hcavalry, however his costs casualties and has the added risk of exposing your ap units to counterflanking in mass Hcavalry charges.

I've used this formation a great number of times - its not the only way to play but one of the ways to play against the horde (or others). If willing, just try it out andsee if it may work for you.

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Chivalric Sergeants - have similar cost, have the exact same morale, and all in all similar melee performance.

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Cost and morale yes, performance no - CS, are spears and halbds no, CS get a +1/+4 rank bonus for every fighting rank and deny the charge, while at the same time they have decent enough armor to withstand bombardments and enhance their defence. Halbs do not cancel the charge but have great defence (6) low ap attack (1) and the anticavalry bonus of +3/+1.

In any case CS are faster than Halberdiers and receive less fatigue (and so morale) punishment in long battles. I'd go with Billmen, Varangians and upgraded Milititia Seargents if i were you that run faster and can play the flanker better than the slow halberdier.

Against the Horde i'd go for Feudal Seargents that have morale=2 and less armor and so can cope better with fatigue. Its good actually to have one CS (or armored spear) and 2-3 Feudal Seargents.

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Whenever I've used spearmen I have been disappointed. Spearmen might last a little longer in melee, but they also lack killing power completely.

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That's because they are pining units as it has been mentioned, for armor piercing units to do the killing. No one said that you shouldn't bring armor piercing units, just that a combo of pinners and ap flankers might work better than vanilla halberds alone. If you ignore spears you are risking your ap units to be routed off the field by cavalry charges that the Horde does aplenty.

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I already find MTW battles often a bit too long, so out of two rouhgly equal options, I will go for the one that die faster but kill faster.

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Again, you are assuming that someone suggested spears as cavalry killers, but they have been suggested and acknowledged as cavalry pinners. The duration of the battles is down to the maps, that are larger than the optimal maps of STW around which the battle engine was designed and also due to how many stacks a faction can support.

In 60 man units these can be many - play with 120men units and you'll find that the average battle duration shortens because stacks cost more in maintenance and factions can maintain less of them around.

:bow:

The previous post says it all.
Only things to add are IMHO:

- you of course need to take into account the morale bonus granted by your general. If you have a 4 stars generals, halberdiers should be able to be used as flanker thanks to the +2 morale bonus. With a 0 morale bonus, they will probably start wavering as soon as they have a horse units on their flank ...
- CS have a poor morale to but are not be used in the same way. You just make a nice and tidy wall and wait for the enemy to charge. If done properly (trickier if you are the attacker), they should not get a morale penalty for having their flank threatened.

Personnally, I do not think that halberdiers are a bad unit, they are just not flankers. I usually leave them a bit behind my spearmen and when those have been engaged, I move the halberdiers in the small space between the spear units, once they halbs get in contact with the engaged horses they will slaughter them. A bit slower and far less spectacular than a charge from the rear but it minimise the risk that the halbs will be charged head on or flanked. Of course I am far from being the most adventurous player ever so that it might seem a bit too dull and safe to some other players. Fair enough:laugh4:

I in fact think that vanilla Halberds are bad units - i guess the concept is that they were kind of MTW Naginata, however with Heavy Cavalry being as strong as it is, they would have work much better if they were a scaling down of Chivalric Knights in stats, ie units that make up for their slow speed and high fatigue rate, by good morale and attack. As they are they can win battles of attrition, since they have low attack and high defence, however fighting for long and hard is also not their forte due to the tones of armor and low base morale.

its true of course that upgrades and a good general can make up for these but when you have provinces that can churn out highly upgraded troops i'd still go for Militia Seargents. Its down of course to style and all styles are good.

:bow:

Jxrc raises a good point that flankers do indeed have to expose their own flanks, which makes Halbs with their low morale poor flankers.

:bow:

The slow speed of vanilla Halberdiers just makes them frustrating to use, and pretty much worthless in attacks. In defense, especially against the Horde, they can be useful as arrow sponges, and may be useful if you can camp them in woods and lure in the heavy cav. In the open, they will likely get crushed.

Award for Best Performance by vanilla Halbs in a MTW campaign - In my Swiss campaign, fighting against the Hungarians on defense. Pretty chaotic, the enemy flanked and my 1 unit of dog-slow Halbs got left behind when the line rotated. I sent them to engage some small infantry unit (maybe militia sergeants, can't remember) and the Hungarians sent a unit of Szekely to help out. The Halbs routed the MS, took the arrows and a charge from the Szekely, and routed them as well after decimating them. All this happened miles away from the main battle and my general. I think the unit ended up with about 20 men left, but stood firm. I was amazed, and have never managed to get any unit of Halbs to come close to this ever after. I can only imagine I built this unit in the province with the Cathedral.

Since everyone seems to disagree with me, I guess I must wrong. I will try out CS next time. I have always assumed that they're not worth it, I guess it must have been the basic human thinking mistake that caused me to see proof to this where none existed.

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its true of course that upgrades and a good general can make up for these but when you have provinces that can churn out highly upgraded troops i'd still go for Militia Seargents.

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Militia Sergeants, out of all units? That is a peculiar choice. When you have provinces that can churn out highly upgraded troops, isn't that exactly the reason why NOT use Militia Sergeants? If you need true flankers, why not just use the heavy cavalry of your faction? If you need some on-foot killing power, why not the stronger elite CMAA? If you need something to kill heavy cavalry, won't indeed Halberdiers do a better job?

Halbs in woods with a couple church upgrades. A decent general is a bonus. If you're loosing defensive battles against the horde with them, you're wrong. Very little fancy footwork is required. They're cheap units; use 'em up.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Halbs in woods with a couple church upgrades. A decent general is a bonus. If you're loosing defensive battles against the horde with them, you're wrong. Very little fancy footwork is required. They're cheap units; use 'em up.

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Sensible approach indeed but almost any infantry unit fighting in woods will defeat the Horde. Perhaps not missiles vanilla spearmen and peasants but pretty much anything else. My favorite units to fight mongols in the woods would be huscarls or swabian swordmen but almost anything (halbs, FMAA, CMAA, vikings, CS, FS, MS etc.) will do the trick.

Believe it or not Woodsmen are quite good in the woods...

Ok I'll get my coat.

:eeeek:

Militia Sergeants get the AP attack, but they don't get the polearm +3/+1 bonus against cavalry. I would tend to go with something a little more hard-hitting as my flankers.

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Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa

Believe it or not Woodsmen are quite good in the woods...

Ok I'll get my coat.

:eeeek:

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:laugh4:

Just had a battle where I saw how Billmen own MHC so hard it's not even funny. It takes like 10 seconds to halve a unit after head-on impact holding moderate high ground.
Halberdiers have just 1 less attack, and 2 more defense and armour each. I just don't understand the need for spearmen after this. You don't need to pin a cavalry unit when you have Halberdiers. You crush it head-on. Why bother with holding the line when you can just directly decimate?

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Just had a battle where I saw how Billmen own MHC so hard it's not even funny. It takes like 10 seconds to halve a unit after head-on impact holding moderate high ground.
Halberdiers have just 1 less attack, and 2 more defense and armour each.

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Halberdiers also have 2 less morale and are two points slower. I believe you are underestimating the importance of morale in your assessment. Also that 1 point extra attack bonus makes all the difference (their attack bonus is doubled). Billmen are simply superior.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

I just don't understand the need for spearmen after this. You don't need to pin a cavalry unit when you have Halberdiers. You crush it head-on. Why bother with holding the line when you can just directly decimate?

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Each to their own...

:bow:

Battles with the Horde usually take forever to fight. So any unit that is susceptible to morale issues is iffy. In a custom battle, charging a unit of Halbies into a charging unit of MHC leads to the Halbies winning, IIRC. But take that same unit of Halberdiers, walk them around a bunch to get them into position, have them peppered by the Mongol Warriors/Horse Archers, repel a couple of charges from MHC and lose half their unit, then you have a problem. Fatigue + losses from missiles + casualties = start of chain rout. They are also too slow to retire from the field properly, so your replacement rates suffer. Meanwhile, the Horde has 6 stacks of reinforcements lined up waiting to have a go.

Staying power is a lot more important than kills. If you can guarantee that your halberdiers are going to be in woods, they work great (spears lose a lot of bonuses in the trees). But if the only patch of forest is in the middle or sides of the map, it's a long, slow slog for the tin cans against the GH.

Staying power is used to let the Arbalesters empty their quivers, right? I guess this indeed comes down to playstyle then... First of all I hate long drawn-out battles and avoid them in the first place, and secondly, perhaps as a result of that I often find myself incapable of using Arbalesters on less than mountainous terrain.

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So any unit that is susceptible to morale issues is iffy.

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Well... Once again, which unit do you have in mind that doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Staying power is used to let the Arbalesters empty their quivers, right?

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Not necessarily, though it's nice. You need units that can hold the line, not take too many casualties, and can recover from fatigue. They need to be able to stand in for at least 2-3 waves. The Arbalests will work through their quivers regardless, as long as they get protection.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

I guess this indeed comes down to playstyle then... First of all I hate long drawn-out battles and avoid them in the first place, and secondly, perhaps as a result of that I often find myself incapable of using Arbalesters on less than mountainous terrain.

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This is true, if you find something that matches your play style and works, great. I find myself incapable of controlling large numbers of archers, and can't use HA to save my life. So I get around it by using different tactics.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Well... Once again, which unit do you have in mind that doesn't?

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Chivalric or Feudal(w/ armor upgrades) Sergeants or Armoured Spearmen on the lines. It's not sexy, but they will retain their numbers and energy levels longer, thus maintaining morale.

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Not necessarily

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Hang on... then what else could we be holding the line for if it's not necessarily arbalesters?

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The Arbalests will work through their quivers regardless

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If the line is broken and Arbalesters get charged into, they won't...

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Hang on... then what else could we be holding the line for if it's not necessarily arbalesters?

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Flankers.

And who are they?

A lot of questions...

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Staying power is used to let the Arbalesters empty their quivers, right? I guess this indeed comes down to playstyle then... First of all I hate long drawn-out battles and avoid them in the first place, and secondly, perhaps as a result of that I often find myself incapable of using Arbalesters on less than mountainous terrain.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "staying power". Staying power could be defined in many ways. Any unit with decent stats has decent staying power, but units with good morale would also have better staying power than those with lower morale. Several other factors affect this however...

Taking Chivalric Sergeants/Saracen Infantry for example. They have 0 morale but make up for this in their defensive capability and armour (also it's assumed they they would be lead by a decent general). Feudal Sergeants have 2 points morale, 1 point more attack but 2 points less armour and 4 points less defence. This means that despite having better morale and attack, they break sooner once they come under fire from the Mongol Horse Archers and start taking heavy losses. So in a nutshell, despite the lower morale, CS/SI are stronger due to other factors.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Well... Once again, which unit do you have in mind that doesn't?

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Any unit that has a decent morale and balanced stats. A unit that doesn't tire or die too easily.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

Hang on... then what else could we be holding the line for if it's not necessarily arbalesters?

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Holding the line is part of both defensive and offensive strategies, but mostly defensive. Spears protect your missile troops and those troops you've brought along for a specific pupose such as any flanking troops, sword infantry, cavalry or artillery units from enemy cavalry. As the mongol forces tend to be made up of about 85% cavalry, it is obvious as to why spears are important. Spears also protect each others' flanks and if used correctly form a solid wall (or a chessboard layout if you prefer) that the enemy must face. This removes the morale penalty for unprotected flanks. The flanking units, sword infantry and polearms work around this and can be brought in at the right time, to different parts of the battleline to break the enemy.

Also Saracen/Chivalric Sergeants can kill Heavy Cavalry, but they do it slowly. If you have a battle like line this:

--CK-CK-CK-----------------RK*----
CFK---ARB---ARB---ARB---HALB-HALB
CS----CS----CS----CS----CS----CS
________________^MHC
^
NAP----MHC---MHC----MHC----MHA
MHA--MHA--MHA--MHA--MHA--MHA
MHC-----MW---MW--MHC-----MHC*

You would let the CS deal with that one MHC that has charged the centre of your lines. If you were to bring the Halbs in on their flanks they would be sitting ducks. Once the bulk of the MHC meets your battle lines, you can then deploy the flanking units without fear of them being flanked themselves.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

If the line is broken and Arbalesters get charged into, they won't...

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The whole idea is that the lines don't get broken and that the MHC do not reach the Arbalests. If you deploy swords/axes/polarms head on against cavalry they will duel it out and take heavy losses. Spears in held formation, can absorb charge after charge and don't tire as easily (because they stand still). Also as swords/axes/polarms need to fight freely in "engage at will" mode, they will bunch up and expose your missile troops to enemy cavalry and are themselves vulnerable to enemy cavalry charges. Your missiles will then have to go it alone without the protection of a line of e.g. CS or Saracens keeping them safe.

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Originally Posted by Vantek

And who are they?

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Flankers are any units with good attack, very good charge, decent morale (though not always) and usually AP though not always. Flankers tend to have poor defence and once they start duelling they will start to lose. Flankers can be cavalry, infantry or hybrid archers. The trick with flankers is to send them in at the right time (i.e. when the enemy are already starting to break or the unit has been worn down by your archers/arbalesters).

:bow: