Illegal Immgrants Protest

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So if they are not registering then what is this BS some people are on about with them claiming welfare ? not that an ITIN will get you welfare ?

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Just to point out, there are laws in the United States along the lines of: "if you come into emergency rooms with emergency, then you will be served no matter you're a Martian or American, or an anonymous guy with beards, whatever."

The law has its purpose--very clear, in fact--but it has been used "differently" from what it was originally intended.

Also, you don't need an ID card to buy small stuff with cash, like groceries or the local McDonalds. But then they would be paying taxes while buying stuff, so that's okay for me.

And there are also many complications, and Mexican lobbyist groups at work. Those I do not know so much detail about, probably the Don can help.

But I really have no special hatred for them like some of us around here do. I guess I'm just not patriotic enough for them. Then again, I have never found any external artificial BS worth screaming, rioting, burning flags, killing, and dying over.

Just to point out, there are laws in the United States along the lines of: "if you come into emergency rooms with emergency, then you will be served no matter you're a Martian or American, or an anonymous guy with beards, whatever."

But isn't there something in this new legislation that makes it an offense to treat illegals ?

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Being a legal immigrant myself, I find it hard to get here in the first place (registered for immigration while I was like, four years old--came here a teenager), but worth it.

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The waiting times is the least of these hypothetical immigrants' problems.

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First of all, limited legal immigration is America's decision. America has the sovereignty to decide who's coming in and who's not, at least for a long while to come. And I could see it as perfectly justified.

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Quite obvious, a state inherently has sovereignty. I was not challenging that fact. There is futility in putting a country's sovereignty over people's right to a better life.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

The government of Peru educates soon-to-be migrates on the benefits of the US welfare system.
Now that is really interesting :inquisitive:
She told me everything she learned she learned from the embassy and customs counselors in Peru.

Wow Peru has an embassy in Peru .....bollox , you get the same information in any country ....by going to the US embassy and speaking to the US immigration councilors .
Or you can go online to the US government and get all the information that that government gives people who wish to emigrate .


You miss the point entirely amigo. They arent legal now, they dont pay federal taxes,
Really ????then what the hell is an ITIN number for ? It certainly isn't for claiming welfare is it .

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No, genius, Peru has a F***** ambassador team in the united states that migrates can call and use their national ID number to speak with someone who will give them information if they need help with something. I dialed the number for her on my phone, you can get this information on their federal website, and you still miss the point -- the point being that the entire ordeal is being hastened and made less complicated through the help of their homeland, so essentially it would be like my government making a travel brochure telling me how to go to Canada and live for free off its taxpayers.

Oh, I could find out on my own how to live for free in Canada off its taxpayers, but it would be all the easier to get it done if I got a little push from uncle sam.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What part of 'undocumented' are you having troubles with? They only get ITIN numbers if they are actually recorded in the system (legal immigrants or illegal immigrants that got a pass on the last round of amnesty).
What part of the Dept of the Treasury rules concerning ITIN numbers are you having trouble with ?
Immigarant status ....legal , illegal , or amnestied ...has absolutely no bearing on the issue of ITIN numbers .
Whassup Don , don't you know any illegals that actually declare their income ?

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Do you seriously think every employer registers every employee and pays taxes on them? Do you have any earthly idea how easy it is for me to start a small business, and then go find some blokes who will let me pay them under the table, give them no benefits, and they wont sue me for workers comp or treating them like crap because they happen to be illegal, and dont want to draw the authorities attention to them? Its even easier to contract out to one of the "businesses" and reap the fruits of the labor because now you are indirectly involved, and if anyone gets busted its gonna be the other guy? The Justice Department may finew wal-mart half a million dollars, but they dont spend to much effort going after Garys Concrete Sawing, and if they do the fine is a bitch slap, which can be averted sometimes by declaring commercial bankruptcy and starting a new business all over again.

Departments of Human services dont report to the INS. If a woman goes into a DHS office with a hungry baby, they are going to be fed and taken care of on a local level, with funding provided by the county, state and grants from the federal government. Illegals pay state and city taxes in the form of sales tax, although there are plenty of those even they skirt. But they dont pay federal or social security, and by god thats what people are pissed about.

This is not rocket science, we are poised to break the human services system in america, and we will have to choose between the young and the old, and I dont really want to do that.

No, genius, Peru has a F***** ambassador team in the united states that migrates can call and use their national ID number to speak with someone who will give them information if they need help with something. I dialed the number for her on my phone, you can get this information on their federal website, and you still miss the point -- the point being that the entire ordeal is being hastened and made less complicated through the help of their homeland, so essentially it would be like my government making a travel brochure telling me how to go to Canada and live for free off its taxpayers.

Well then why not ask your government about moving to another country , they will tell you everything you need to know , and when you are in that country you can ask your embassy in case you have forgotten anything .
I miss the point ????what point ....that governments supply their citizens with information if they ask for it (apart from some repressive regimes) .

Do you seriously think every employer registers every employee and pays taxes on them? Do you have any earthly idea how easy it is for me to start a small business, and then go find some blokes who will let me pay them under the table, give them no benefits, and they wont sue me for workers comp or treating them like crap because they happen to be illegal, and dont want to draw the authorities attention to them?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
No dump .....I have no idea how easy it is .

Tribes - MRD is saying their government is showing them how to break the law in another country. This isn't about asking your government for help in legally moving to another country.

Given what LatAm adminstrations tend to be like, there's actually a perverse kind of very logical consistency in that.

So you're saying there's a Latin American conspiracy?::inquisitive:

To what end?

Should we be concerned? Should we attempt to combat their fiendish plan? Should we attempt to control our borders from the corrupting influence of illegal activity? Do we have the right?

Gee, what do Latin American countries do in situations like our?

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Originally Posted by The Black Ship

So you're saying there's a Latin American conspiracy?::inquisitive:

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Conspiracy, schmonspiracy. Nah. Just that given LatAm governements tend to be bywords for corruption and graft, and the states virtually incapable of enforcing even a portion of their own laws, it actually seems rather logical of them to use illegal emigration as a way to vent excess population. Actually instructing them in ways of circumventing the legislation of the target country (should that be a fact and not just a nationalist hyperbole) seems like a very logical follow-up.

Mind you, I wouldn't put it past them to regard it as a sort of tit-for-tat payback for the assorted oh-so-beneficial "trade agreements" and suchlike the Big Brother of the North keeps force-feeding them and which AFAIK don't exactly help reduce the number of unhappy people wanting to emigrate...

A sort of "you deal with them then" idea, you know ? Just a thought.

Tribes - MRD is saying their government is showing them how to break the law in another country.
If that is what he is trying to say then he is wrong , they are not telling them how to break the law , they are telling them what they can legally obtain and how to obtain it . and guess what , the embassy is legally obliged to provide the information .
So if that is what MRD is saying it is just a load of hype .

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Conspiracy, schmonspiracy. Nah. Just that given LatAm governements tend to be bywords for corruption and graft, and the states virtually incapable of enforcing even a portion of their own laws, it actually seems rather logical of them to use illegal emigration as a way to vent excess population. Actually instructing them in ways of circumventing the legislation of the target country (should that be a fact and not just a nationalist hyperbole) seems like a very logical follow-up.

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As Tribesman said they've a duty to show the actual composition of national and international law. Beyond that I can assure you that there's no conspiracy, and it doesn't seem so logical to do so when you consider that every man that escapes his nation will be a hand less to do a certain job and add to the internal product. Is not a good policy, unless you want to get rid of people who commit crimes, but then again such people will often avoid authorities.

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Mind you, I wouldn't put it past them to regard it as a sort of tit-for-tat payback for the assorted oh-so-beneficial "trade agreements" and suchlike the Big Brother of the North keeps force-feeding them and which AFAIK don't exactly help reduce the number of unhappy people wanting to emigrate...

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At least there's someone that agrees with me in that the trade agreements are not exactly equitative.:2thumbsup:

75 percent of CAFTA imports and 99% of CAFTA agricultural imports already enter the United States duty free, so yes Soulforged I'll agree the current trade situation in CAFTA countries is inequitable.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Tribes - MRD is saying their government is showing them how to break the law in another country.
If that is what he is trying to say then he is wrong , they are not telling them how to break the law , they are telling them what they can legally obtain and how to obtain it . and guess what , the embassy is legally obliged to provide the information .
So if that is what MRD is saying it is just a load of hype .

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My girlfriend was a legal migrant worker, she was taxed, and even if she werent the embassy and the channels of information from home would provide information to help. So no, I'm not necessarily saying the governments of south america are showing them how to break the law, because they are using the dont ask dont tell policy.

While you may not think theres anything wrong with it, Tribe, and perhaps the only reason I do is because I live here, the idea of a nation encouraging its population to go to another country -- however the means -- and telling them how great they will be taken care of is wrong. I think if high schools in America encouraged kids to move to France because France has more user-friendly unemployment laws, people of France would likely get ticked since the people of France are the ones who bear the taxation burden.

She wanted to have kids, man. When I said we weren't financially ready for kids, she told me that it was okay because medicaid and foodstamps would help, and went on about this friend and that friend who did it. It's bad enough having Americans thinking that way, but when immigrants have that mentaility the moment they show up we take this thing to an entire new level.

So major , what is the issue then ?
She had information that she was entitled to get , just like anyone can get information that they are entitled to .

It's bad enough having Americans thinking that way, but when immigrants have that mentaility the moment they show up we take this thing to an entire new level.
Ah I see , its bad enough if Americans know their laws and entitlements , but its even worse if people who move to America know their laws and entitlements .
So in that case any immigrant in Ireland should certainly not be told about child benefit payments , they certainly shouldn't be told about tax credits and most definately shouldn't be told about anything else concerning the laws of the land that they are living in and their obligations and entitlements .:no: Actually since it is apperantly bad enough if the natives know perhaps it is an idea to make sure that no one knows the laws of the land .:dizzy2:

Yeah, dude, going to a country to live off The backs of others is uber mensch. I mean what was I thinking, I love raise other peoples kids!!!!1111

Yeah, dude, going to a country to live off The backs of others is uber mensch. I mean what was I thinking, I love raise other peoples kids!!!!1111
Well clearly you were not thinking , thats the problem , you take a serious issue and just come out with meaningless crap .
Don't worry though , it is quite common when it comes to immigration issues .
People spout meaningless crap about immigration all the time . This bill and the protests for and against it are prime examples .

I would appreciate if criticism of other people's posts would adhere to certain "standards".

I noted that "bullshit" and "crap" - "enhanced" by the use of various adjectives - has again become increasingly popular lately.

Certainly most patrons are able to express their disagreement in more appropriate ways?

I would appreciate if criticism of other people's posts would adhere to certain "standards".

OK . Is this any better .
Implying that a government by fulfilling its legal obligations to its citizens is somehow wrong is misguiged baseless rubbish that has absolutely no bearing on the subject and shows a lack of thought about the issue .
Ignoring the fact that in the same situation any government does the same shows the lack of thought that was put into the comment .
Complaining that people are willing to claim what they are entitled to shows that people don't like people getting their entitlements .

Lol the fact that you use the word "citizen" followed by the word "entitled" shows perhaps you dont understand the argument.

I dont mind if people come over, as long as they sign in. I dont mind if people use the welfare system for what its intended, as long as they sign in. I can deal with the fact that welfare abuses occur and it can cause an entitlement mentailty to be passed from generation to generation, as long as the people doing it are taxpaying americans.

So, what is it you dont understand? The millions of illegals? The workers being paid illegally and not paying taxes on their income? The people who will not declare citizenship until they are almost to retirement age, and then get a social security number and social security checks each month? Do you not understand that you can do things like vote and get a welfare debit card without showing a state or federal issued ID card? Do you not understand that we are just asking people to sign in, get citizenship or legal migrant worker status? Do you not understand the hypocrisy of people who enter illegally, work illegally, and milk the welfare system while not contributing a tax base, then taking to the streets to enjoy their freedom to assemble and whine about rights?

It will continue to happen as long as we let it. Turning a blind eye will encourage others, until the entitlement programs are so heavily burdened our taxes will either be raised significantly or the entitlement programs will be phased out altogether, screwing the people who paid into it their entire lives and ruining what could have been a somewhat functioning system.

Whining about who America stole its land from, about american injustices, about all the other stuff the government spends money on -- all that is a diversion and largely irrelevant to the argument, let alone irrelevant to working stiffs who have little or no control what their country did/is doing.

Lol the fact that you use the word "citizen" followed by the word "entitled" shows perhaps you dont understand the argument.

Since the point you raised was about the Peruvian government giving its citizens information that they were entitled to (information that your government also gives them) .
It shows that your post was just another red-herring rant .
So heed your own advice ... all that is a diversion and largely irrelevant to the argument