Red Flood

yes, I disagree with AggonyDuck in the matter of Gibraltar - I don't think a Spanish war entry is necessary. For example the Swedish military access for 2entire German divisions didn't force the Swedish to break their neutrality, even though that was at a time when Britain was stronger than it was in middle 1940 which is the current time of the Interactive. Spain can always make an official statement of "disliking the incursion" and not take part in any military action after that to show their neutrality. The thing is, if Britain declares war on Spain over the military access, and can't reach Spain with military actions, Spain will not need to make any defensive actions that could confirm and strengthen the appearance of a hostile attitude, and if they keep claiming their neutrality, and it's admitted and confirmed by German statements, then the British will be the ones to look bad if they keep claiming Spain is at war.

Gibraltar would be really useful to hold. The British high-priority convoys were after all some of the most important key convoys in the war in North Africa, for instance a huge convoy of tanks for operation crusader. The longer supply routes will not hurt oil and food supplies, but will give the British a slower reaction time to shortages of military supplies such as equipment and reinforcements. Gibraltar is also a convenient stop for convoys going around Africa. Also there's the prospect of severely damaging or sinking plenty of British ships - if we're lucky we'll even be able to take over some of the ships almost intact. There's also the prospect of being able to get submarines into the Mediterranean, and the prospect of covering the Italian fleet's flank so it can effectively put an end to British control in North Africa and the rest of the Mediterranean - perhaps with the result that the Italian fleet in return can be convinced to send some capital ships to help dealing with the British home fleet later on. After British control over the Mediterranean is lost there's also the prospect of going into the Middle east and be able to get within reach of British bases in India. Most of the advantages of holding Gibraltar aren't lost even if the British invade the Canaries in response to losing Gibraltar. Doing so will give them diplomatical problems. Since the Canaries are much further south, it'll still keep the German submarine route into the Mediterranean open. Not likely, but possibly, German air bases in Morocco could be used to bombard British positions in those islands, maybe enabling the destruction of further British fleet units. The British empire will in a matter of between a few months and a year and a half be cut off into two parts - one in South east Asia, and one in Britain. The result would be that the British will either have to give up India and the last remnants of their empire outside Britain (which would perhaps make many British more open to accepting peace if they get promises of keeping their colonies in return, or at the very least lead to a British fleet concentrated around their homelands in defense and without much possibilities for offensive anywhere), or keep sending men and equipment convoys there over extremely long supply routes, which are ideal for the German submarines to harass.

If getting Gibraltar is as easy as it sounds, then why didn't the Germans do it? Why did they choose against it?

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

If getting Gibraltar is as easy as it sounds, then why didn't the Germans do it? Why did they choose against it?

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They wanted to, but Hitler, being his usual self, demanded that Franco enters the war, rather than give right of passage. Secondly, it was a different grand strategy ... Germany chose to take the air war path, forcing Britain to surrender not by hitting it's exposed and vulnerable Empire, but rather, the Home Islands, as it turned out, that was a mistake (not in itself, but rather, the choice of a terror bombing campaign, as opposed to the airbase bomabardment that they preferred earlier in the battle). And, finally, Hitler's insistance on Barbarossa robbed the proposed invasion of resources.

So, the world has to be thankful that Hitler was an idiot, or else we'd either be speaking German, dying in labour camps ... or dying of radiation (in the case of US citizens).

Yes, Hitler demanded France to enter the war, something that Franco obviously couldn't accept, so in response to Hitler's suggestion he made demands impossible to meet: around 500k tons of grain, complete supply of fuel and equipment for the Spanish army. Hitler seems to have gotten angry with Franco on a personal level too and was very reluctant about meeting him again after the discussion, which took place in late October 1940.

Chapter 6 – The ‘Auswärtiges Amt’
Berlin, June 20th, 1940

At last time has come for the meeting at the Auswärtige Amt. A secretary leads Ramcke straight to the office of Secretary of State Ernst Freiherr von Weizsäcker. There, a man at the age of about 60 is waiting for him. He is in plain clothes, but the pin at his jacket shows that he is member of the SS.
“Oberstleutnant Ramcke, you asked for information about the Mediterranean Sea sates?” His right hand invites Ramcke to take a seat.
Ramcke sits down: “Yes, Secretary of State! I am writing an expose about the Mediterranean Sea for the RLM and I could use some information about the political situation there. I thought that the Auswärtige Amt could ...”
“Could give you this information. Well, I will try to do my best to give you an overview. First of all, let me tell you that the situation is complex, especially at the Balkans. Do not expect to learn every aspect in one meeting. It took me years to understand the basics. Additionally, the situation is changing rapidly. The German victory over the allied armies blew the old order away.
Let me start with Italy, our ally in the Mediterranean Sea. Mussolini did not want to get involved into the war. On the other side he could not stay aside. Therefore he created the state `non-belligerent`. This means, as you may know, that Italy supported us without being actively involved in the war. Our victory made Mussolini change his mind. I guess he realized that he had to enter war soon or he would get nothing of the prey. Therefore Italy declared war at 10th of June.
Spain - Franco is in a similar situation as Mussolini. He owns Germany a lot, last but not least a lot of money - and he would like to get Gibraltar and a big part of the French colonies. He knows that he can get it only if he enters the war on our side. Yet he is hesitating. He is waiting for the right moment when he can join us without risk and disadvantages. Spain declared itself as `non-belligerent` at 12th of June.
Portugal – You may know that Portugal and England have a long friendship. However, the German victory over France had its effect on this friendship, too. Our ambassador had a long meeting with Salazar. Salazar realizes that the European order will be rearranged with elimination of England. Portugal seems to be trying to leave the English sphere of interest. Salazar suggested an alliance with Spain. This could either be the first step to get into the German sphere of interest or an attempt to keep independent. Salazar assured Franco, that Portugal would stay neutral in case the Spanish attack Gibraltar.
Now let us talk about Southeast Europe. As I said before the situation there is complex. All countries there have either claims on territories of their neighbors or have to fear those claims. Now that France and England lost their influence there most of these countries are looking for a new protector to enforce their claims or to protect their territory against any claims.
Hungary – claims territory in Romania and hopes that Germany will support it.
Bulgaria – same situation as Hungary. They want to get territory from the Romanians, too. Additionally they try to get access to the isthmus.
Romania – needs protection against the territorial claims of Russia, Bulgaria and Hungary. What makes this country so interesting is the oil production. Germany depends on this oil and has to secure the supply. On the other hand the Russians would love to get access o the oil fields, too.
Yugoslavia – The country has different ethnic groups with different interest. It is threatened by Italy that wants to control the Adriatic Sea and the whole Mediterranean Sea. Unlike the other countries Yugoslavia tries to find support in Moscow. Yugoslavia may be willing to subordinate under German leadership. However, it will not co-operate with the Italians.
Greece – Like Yugoslavia Greece is threatened by the Italian lust for expansion. It is allied with England. However, Greece tries to avoid any conflict with Germany. They hope that Germany can prevent Italy from an invasion.
Turkey – Turkey has an alliance with Britain, too. When the war started, they stayed `non-belligerent`. After the German victory Turkey tries to get closer to Germany. I had a meeting with the ambassador Gerede two days ago. We will sign a trade agreement in July that will break the English trade monopoly. Turkey is threatened by the Soviet Union. The Russians pretend to have claims on the northern part of Turkey and they want to get control over the isthmus. Bulgaria is also a threat. Additionally England would use any chance to get control over the isthmus, too.
Britain is not strong enough to support its allies on the Balkans. However, it tries to build a front against Germany there. It advises Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey to make a military pact and to co-ordinate the defense. Until now these efforts had no success.
The German increase of power influences even regions outside of Europe. For example Afghanistan; Minister Abdul Majid Khan offered us his support. He told us that his government could activate the tribes in Northern India and so hinder Indian troops from shipping to Europe. In return he asked for military equipment and a guarantee against Russia. He also said that Afghanistan and its allies, the nations of Iran, Iraq and Turkey are willing to co-ordinate their policy with Berlin. The Iraqi Prime Minister Rashid Ali el Ghailani also showed his interest in a German-Arabian co-operation.”
Ramcke would like to discuss some issues in detail, but Weizsäcker breaks the meeting off:
“Oberstleutnant, I think this is all I can give you at the moment. Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop would like to meet you, too.”
The two men leave Weizsäcker’s office and go to the bureau of the Foreign Minister. They have to wait a quarter of an hour until they can enter.
“Oberstleutnant Ramcke! Welcome at the Foreign Office! I hope that von Weizsäcker could give you the information you need!”
“Yes, Minister, he could! Thank you very much for your kindness and cooperativeness!”
“Surely we would have been able to support you more if we knew more about your mission.”
Ramcke hesitates for a moment. His mission is secret; however, Ribbentrop is member of the government. He decides to answer evasive:

“The RLM is just trying to get an overview over the political situation of the Mediterranean Sea. As you know the Italians are supposed to start their operations soon and we wonder how we can support them.”
“You are member of the Fallschirmjäger, I see. This formation, though still very new, has an excellent reputation.”
“Thank you, Minister. I think the boys did very good jobs so far. I have to admit, however, that I just joined them and that I have no share in their success.”
Ribbentrop invites Ramcke and Weizsäcker to sit down. The secretary serves coffee and soft drinks.
After she had left the room, Ribbentrop starts talking again:

“I assume that von Weizsäcker pointed the dramatic overthrow caused by our victory over France to you. Our Führer has outmaneuvered all our enemies and now we can rearrange Europe, to put it bluntly, the world. You can imagine that our Office has a million things to do now. We will be the architects of this new world order, all countries that had been following France or Britain are now coming to us. Yes, Oberstleutnant, times are changing!”
He looks at Ramcke as if he expects a reply. Ramcke does not know what to say, so he remains silent.
“Of course, the pact with Stalin was and is the basis for our success. What an ingenious move of the Führer, to ally with our biggest enemy to defeat the western world! I can tell you, that it was not simple to get this agreement. Stalin is suspicious and so is Hitler. I had to arbitrate and I finally made the impossible, an alliance between Hitler and the Bolshevists. Adolf Hitler appertains a place in the gallery of the most outstanding leaders in history that is sure. Where did we start seven years ago, and where are we now?
Additionally, I have to admit that I long for the moment when the bumptious and snotty English will lay in the dirt and beg for mercy. Usually Hitler has a very good feeling for other nations and cultures. However, Hitler has a soft spot for the English. He always thought to get a partnership with them and I am afraid he still thinks the same way. God knows that I tried everything, I argued, I offered them many advantages, I begged and I threatened, those Tommies were far too fancied to cooperate. I tell you, there will be no cooperation. There will be either them or us. We have to crack the British Empire like we did with France.
I know that France has been our main enemy all the time. However, I think now that we taught them a lesson; there may be a chance to cooperate. France realized that it cannot fight Germany in the long run. They will see that they have to arrange with Germany and they will find out that this can be beneficial for them, too. The armistice agreement has not been signed. What I am telling you now is still strictly confidential. Northern France, the Western coast and Paris will remain occupied. Southern France will not remain occupied. It will have the status `non-belligerent`, that means that they will not declare war but support us. The occupied and unoccupied country will have to produce for the German war industry and supply us with food. The French will keep their colonies and their fleet, at least until the final peace agreement.”
Ramcke looks surprised.
“I see that you find this agreement unusual, don’t you? Well, this is another example for the genius of the Führer. The French do everything to keep their colonies – they are so vain – and they need the fleet to defend it. Would we insist in getting the fleet – the fighting would go on. Additionally, I have to say that I am glad that the Führer refused to take the French fleet. Why? Look at the situation right now. There are four France: first of all the occupied territory. Then there is the unoccupied France with the new French government – our puppet. Then there are the colonies. They are tied to the new government loosely. If we do not take care, they could declare themselves independent or even ally with the English. We have to prevent that. As we cannot occupy the colonies we can threaten that we would occupy the rest of France if the colonies fall apart. Then, finally, there is the navy. Some ships already set sails for English harbors. The armistice agreement shows that the Germans will not take the fleet away. France needs the fleet to keep the colonies. Therefore, most of the commanders will not change sides and stay in our indirect control. Furthermore, if the British should try to occupy French colonies – and I am sure they will do this sooner or later – they will have to fight the French navy and it will become more and more likely that France will step into the war on our side.
Therefore we will have to avoid everything that makes the colonies or the French fleet change sides. I would even go one step further. I know that Hitler wants to take big parts of the French homeland and colonies away and give it to Germany or its allies. Therefore many French think that it is silly to defend their colonies against the English only to give them later to the Germans. I say: if the French help us to fight the British, let the British pay the bill. Divide the empire, give parts to the Italians, the Spanish and keep the biggest share for Germany. The French could work off their debt.
Marshal Petain is the right one to sign this agreement and to form a new government. He is a national heroe and the French trust him. In the long run Pierre Laval is our man. He is supporting a close German-French friendship and a natioanlistic government.
Oberstleutnant Ramcke, do I have to explain to you the option this kind of cooperation would give to us? Especially in the Mediterranean Theatre?”
Ramcke shakes his head.
“This morning I was in the Reichskanzlei and I said: ‘My Führer, we have to defeat the British with all strength, right now. They are weak now and are only hiding on their islands. However, they are waiting for their American friends to help them. Sooner or later the Americans will join the war. They are still dwarfs. It will take three or four years, but then they will be giants. The world is full of nations that are not willing to tolerate the domanance of the Anglo-American any longer. We have to build a continental block. We have to make a pact including Italy, Japan, Russia and maybe France.’ Yes, I said, including the Russians. I know Hitler does not like them. However, I said: ‘My Führer, please take a closer look at the Soviet Union. It has changed since Stalin took power. He has arrested and killed millions, most of the old Bolshevist leaders are dead. Stalin has also killed hundred thousands of Jews. Stalin is not a Bolshevist, he is a Nationalist, maybe even more a Nationalsozialist than a Communist. Additionally you have to agree that the Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact did help us a lot. Germany depends on import. Our industrial production would have collapsed within months under the British blockade. The Soviets helped us a lot, not only by delivering us most of the resources we needed. Additionally the agreement opened the trade lines to Sweden, Finland and Romania. No, no, no, without the Russian friendlyness we would not have been able to invade France. Additionally, the pact made it possible to move all our troops to the west. We owe this pact a lot, we owe it our success in the west.
Now that we control our sphere of interest, the Russians will soon take their part. However, we had not negotiated the interests on the Balkans. We had no time and additionally the Italian interests were touched here. We have to negotiate and find an agreement how to divide the Balkans. Maybe we can convince the Russians to attack the English. Maybe we can build a Eurasian block.”
The Foreign Minister makes a break. Ramcke uses this to ask a question: “Foreign Minister, you mentioned Japan.”
“Yes. Japan is another clever move of the Führer. We only need Japan to contain America. The US will never be so crazy to get in trouble with Germany and Japan. They will either make peace or mess with Japan. Japan will probably not stand a war with the US. That does not matter. The main thing is that it keeps the US busy.
The main problem of Japan is China. They started the war long time ago and now they can neither win it nor end it. Once we managed to find an agreement with Russia and the Russians and Japanese settle their differences China will fall immediately.
I tell you: the answer to all problems is a Eurasian Block. It will easily defeat the maritime powers!”
After finishing his speech Ribbentrop stands up to show that the audience is over. Ramcke thanks him and says goodbye.

Where to turn to now?

To Spain.:bow:

Yes Spain. After that I think Romania, USSR and Italy are the most interesting places to visit.

Italy.

Ussr.

I am writing my fingers to the bone and that is all you have to say?:sweatdrop:

A most interesting development ... the idea of forming an alliance with the USSR is not something that occured to me.

Anyway, I say Spain, the non-agression treaty will hold. And we can always mention the idea to Hitler as an outline for a later plan, it would need time to grow and convince. Later on, Russia, most definately.

Great post, by the way.

First of all - great post Franc - the pot is really begining to boil.
I think our hero should head for Italy. They are the lead partner in the Axis in the Med and anything we do must involve them and must have their support. Besides some diplomatic smoothing, we can assess the strengths and weaknesses of the Italian armed forces. Best of all would be to obtain an audience with El Duce - I am sure we can appeal to his vanity and enmesh him in our plans. We need our planes in Sicily, Sardina and Southern Italy to achieve anything, otherwise we are tilting at windmills at long distance.
So - off to Rome for some good pasta and mixing with the Italian Elite.:2thumbsup:

I apologize Franc:embarassed: . But I would like to change my vote to Italy, I love their food. And their resources might be useful too, but that is just a bonus.

Spain

I agree that Gibraltar should be our first target, however I think we should first secure the oil fields in romania before moving on to target Egypt.

It is Spain - Italy 4 : 3.

Let's go for Spain. I assume the main issue is Gibraltar.

Here are some googles for you:

1) Try to get as mach data about Gibraltar as you can, esp. geography, fortifications, harbor, airfield, power plant, water supply
2) Rate the strategic importance
3) What has do be done to neutralize the garrison?
4) Check all options for an attack:
- the street
- over the mountains (mountain infantry)
- air borne
- air strikes
- naval attack
- amphibious assault
- hidden operation

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Okay Gibraltar fanatics, better start researching then. ~;)

Gibraltar can be summed up as a huge lump of rock with a long military history, mainly of failed seiges. Its' strategic importance is that it is the gateway to the Med at the western end and he who controls it, controls access to the med.

It is well fortified with an enormous honeycombe of tunnels which are virtualy bomb proof. It was well supplied with a good supply of water.

To attack it we can rule out amphibious attacks - the Royal Navy rule that out and airbourne - you cant parachute into the town and the airfield sits below the guns of the fortress. If you wished to assault it, it would have to be a full on, well supported infantry assault with loads of artillery, air and engineer support. It would be costly and there would be no element of surprise as the troops would have to come through Spain. In 1940 Spain's railways were shot, so the troops would come by road. All of this also surposes that Spain would allow it. As this would pull Spain into the war on the side of the axis and their economy is in ruins after the Civil War it is not likely that Franco would welcome the idea with open arms - precisely the reason it did not happen in the real WW2.

However, if we are wed to attacking Gibraltar - can I propose an alternative. We petition Franco for the long term leasing of 1 or 2 airfields, about 100 miles away from Gib. We pay for these with grain etc. We then establish a strong force of divebombers, torpedo planes and fighters there, as well as a squadron of Fw 200 condors. This force will effectively neutralise Gib as a base, and provide a strong recon force with the Condors to recon the western approaches to the Med. The british will find it difficult to attack the airfields as this would drag Spain into the war, so they will be forced into withdrawing. They may opt to cature the Canaries as an alternative base, but again, this would be to our political benefit. With the Gib defences smashed, our U Boats would have free access to the Med, so we can attack the Royal Navy more freely.

This option seems infinitly more desirable than a costly assault on the fortress with a host of potentially damaging political consequences. 200 planes could achieve easily what 50 - 100,000 troops would struggle to achieve.:2thumbsup:

I like your option. Especially, because the bombers could be stationed at Vichy controlled northafrica too.

I am sorry to force you into a detailed discussion. Please remember that you may have to present your proposal after two weeks to Göring (who does not like you much) and Hitler. Hitler will ask questions and he will make some proposal and you will have to answer or you are fired (best case scenario!!)

Info on Gibraltar is somewhat scarce, given that it was not the site of any major battles. It's strategic importance makes it often mentioned, but not in detail.

Although, from what images I have seen, the place is, like King Kurt said, a big rock turned into a fortress. Airborne landings are out of the question, there is no space. Tanks would be of little use, and we do not have a navy. So, it has to be infantry, aided by artillery and aircraft. We have an advantage in these two areas over the Brits, and have to use it, if we are to do anything.

Given the limitations of space and the fortifications, there can be no real tactics. It will have to be a shelling by artillery, then airstrikes, then wave after wave of infantry. Legio's suggestion earlier in this thread would minimize casualties in the initial stages, but once the fighting moves past that point, it will be a slugging match. Although, there is always the possibility of use of chemical weaponry ... I know Germany had some, and if used, could conveniently clean out the corridors and bunkers ... perhaps even force the Brits to surrender, all the while keeping our losses to a minimum.

Alright, Gibraltar is a fortress. Let's see were it has its soft spot. You have to be creative. Following the German plans is not enough, as Germany lost the war.

The Brits do not have any plane. They have a garrison of some thousands with a couple of guns and aaa. Their strongest force is the RN, which can be used as artillery and air defence. One question is how the Germans can neutralize it. Once the RN is gone, the situation is different.

Sabotage: would it be an option to poison the water supply?

Airborne: Is there a chance to get some paras on the top of the hill. They could lead the artillery bombardment and fire with some grenade launchers and machine guns.

What about divers?

Maybe you get some idea by looking at the breakthrough of the Maginot or the seizure of Sewastopol.

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Airborne: Is there a chance to get some paras on the top of the hill. They could lead the artillery bombardment and fire with some grenade launchers and machine guns.

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It is possible, however, such high precision jumping is likely to be problematic, especially if the Germans don't jump with weapons. The hilltop is flat enough to allow for paras to land, and should be easy enough to hold. However, it would mean long hours without any support other than artillery.

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

What about divers?

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The Italian strategy could be used, ride the divers in on one of the Italian torpedo thingies (like the ones used from WWI and which also featured in the WWII attack on Alexandria, IIRC), then lay mines on the ships and get out again. This could possibly be an introductory movement, under the cover of night, before the beginning of the main offensive. If succesful, many Brits will be busy fighting the fires and assessing the damage, outside their fort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Maybe you get some idea by looking at the breakthrough of the Maginot or the seizure of Sewastopol.

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The Maginot line was never really broken. We cannot avoid Gibraltar, so the Maginot line solution is out of the question (unless you mean setting up a dummy force, but I do not see how that would be useful, as we need to take Gibraltar). Sevastopol is perhaps the most similar situation, however, we are not dealing with Soviet soldiers, and the mentality of the British is quite different from the self-sacrifice of the Soviets. Officers will not keep their men in line by shooting them, thus, they are easier to break. Secondly, the area is much smaller, which poses a difficulty, but there is no Black Sea fleet, and there are fewer defenders. Since aircraft proved decisive in that battle, it is likely to do so at Gibraltar as well (assuming we actually manage to get to attacking Gibraltar).

Sevastopol held out for ages and was beseiged by an Army group - 4 Corps, 100s of planes and the biggest collection of artillery the Germans ever collected. And the General in charge was Manestein. Gibraltar is easier to defend than Sevastopol and the time to get the troops in place will mean that the garrison will be reinforced. As for British resolve - look how long Tobruk held out and that was just a colllection of houses around a port. Gib with about 6,000 Austrailians would hang on for ever and realy make the attackers pay.
FJ on the mountain top? - Technically possible - just - but who releves them? - No heavy weapons, No supply - just contain them and wait for them to run out of ammo.
All this analysis underlines why my approach is more feasable - the strategic outcome of the loss of Gibraltar is a strategic loss for the English - not so much a strategic gain for us. Our strategic gains - romanian and middle east oil - are else where.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

All this analysis underlines why my approach is more feasable - the strategic outcome of the loss of Gibraltar is a strategic loss for the English - not so much a strategic gain for us. Our strategic gains - romanian and middle east oil - are else where.:2thumbsup:

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With Gibraltar held by the Brits, the African campaign would be exceptionally difficult.

The paratroopers would be better used to take Malta, robbing the Royal Navy of a base in the middle of the Mediterranean. Also, it would be a good staging point for troops being sent to Africa. A much better and less risky use of the Fallschimjaeger than wasting them on the fortress that is Gibraltar.

However, without Gibraltar, no victory in the Mediterranean will be permanent, as the allies will be able to reinforce the area, and if the British Home Fleet arrives, you could say that we have kicked the proverbial bucket.

At the moment, Gibraltar does not have 6000 Aussies there, but if we do not make a move immediately, there just might be 6000 Aussies there by the time we get moving. Speed is of the essence, not in taking Gibraltar, but in besieging it. Once it is under siege, the port is exposed to our artillery, making any attempt to reinforce the fortress risky ... or suicidal.

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Originally Posted by Keba

With Gibraltar held by the Brits, the African campaign would be exceptionally difficult.

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This isn't the case, Gibraltar has little effect on the campaign in Northeastafrica. But Gibraltar is on the other hand an exceptional base in operations in the Western Mediterranean and the Atlantic.

But lets not fool ourself in thinking that control of Gibraltar is a decisive factor in the Northafrican campaign. It is the control of the Suez Canal that really is decisive in this campaign. With the loss of it the Brits really lose their best avenue of fighting in the Mediterranean.


About Gibraltar, we really shouldn't know about 10th Light Flotilla. AFAIK its existance was kept top secret and I'm not sure if we actually have any way to actually get the information of their existance.

Gibraltar does have a very limited water supply and is entirely reliant on rainwater. So basically if you could drop some sort of chemical weapons in the rainwater catchment, which is open by the way, you could easily ruin a good part of the british watersupply. (but using chemical weapons is like opening a can of worms)

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

(but using chemical weapons is like opening a can of worms)

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Meh, we're playing Germany ... using chemical weaponry would be the least of the Reich's crimes. Besides ... noboy needs to know. Like anyone will really care, aside from those who are already our enemies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keba

Meh, we're playing Germany ... using chemical weaponry would be the least of the Reich's crimes. Besides ... noboy needs to know. Like anyone will really care, aside from those who are already our enemies.

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The Third reich were reluctant to use chemical weapons - as was everybody in WW2. As most armies had some form of gas mask etc. the military impact was reduced and the consequences - retaliation with chemical weapons, having to operate in chemical warfare gear etc - meant that things would have to be very desparate to use them. There was allegations of use of chemical weapons by the Germans at Sebastapol, but they were never proved.

If you consider the Gib position - if you poison the water supply, then you might gain a small military advantage - but the water supply was built to provide for the civilians as well as the military and the civilians were evacuated during the war. Far easier to neutralise the base by air attacks than to loose loads of troops in an assault or stir up the hornet's nest of a chemical attack.:2thumbsup:

I dont understand why even compare the defense of Sevastopol to defenses of Gibraltar? Soviets had a Brigade,three regiments and 19 independent Battalions of Marine Corps of the Black Sea Fleet,total of 106,000 men.150 field and coast guns and 82 aircraft.82 pillboxes with naval guns, 220 machine-gun earth-and-timber emplacements and pillboxes, 33 km of tank ditches, 56 km of wire entanglements and 9,600 mines.
When British had mere two battalions: 2nd The Kings Regiment and 2nd Somerset Light Infantry on the Rock.Artillery 1 regiment,3rd Heavy Regiment, Royal Artillery (previously "Gibraltar Coast Defenses" and later redesignated 3rd Coast Regiment) controlled 4th, 26th, and 27th Batteries with 8 x 9.2-inch guns, 7 x 6-inch guns, and 6 x twin 6-pounders.
10th AA Regiment withtwo AA batteries, the 9th and 19th, defended Gibraltar from air attack with 4 x 3-inch, 4 x 3.7-inch, and 2 x 40mm guns.
Also there was no fighters at all in Gibraltar.So they only had air-defence fire against air attacks.
So in short two battalions of infantry supported by coastal artillery regiment(no mortars,for close support) and one AA regiment.
These forces were nothing compared to defenses of Sevastopol.

I would like to suggest a double Operation. First attack Malta with mixture of Italian and German forces and then after lets say in 6 hours strike Gibraltar with German landforces.This way we would get the British fleet starting to move out from Gibraltar so it would be easy picking.Also we would cut of its retreat after the Malta has been taken.By shutting Gibraltar with our own artillery and Airforces.If this gets any support i will start creating more detailed plan.:bow:

The comparison with Sevastopol is valid in that it shows the level of force required when you have to assault a fortress which can not be nulified by manouver. I know Gib's garrison is smaller, but I was not suggesting attacking it with an Army of 4 Corps. The point is that a ground attack means moving a large amount of troops through Spain - a country whose infrastructure is recovering from a 4 year long civil war and whose railway is a different gauge - so that will take time - even if Franco allows it. And don't forget that the Germans will have to move these troops across Vichy France as well - and technically we are still at war with them!! In that time, the Garrison will be reinforced as the English rule the waves. The quick and more likely answer is the movement of the appropiate airforce squadrons to Spain.

At this point of the war, the neutralisation of Gib is something that would be handy, but is not vital to our long term strategic aims. Gib and Malta were important for the North Africa campaign - but that isn't happening yet.Sadly we must wait for the Italians to mess up big time before that happens.
This is a marathon, not a sprint - we must look to our long term aims - Romanian and Middle East oil.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

The comparison with Sevastopol is valid in that it shows the level of force required when you have to assault a fortress which can not be nulified by manouver. I know Gib's garrison is smaller, but I was not suggesting attacking it with an Army of 4 Corps. The point is that a ground attack means moving a large amount of troops through Spain - a country whose infrastructure is recovering from a 4 year long civil war and whose railway is a different gauge - so that will take time - even if Franco allows it. And don't forget that the Germans will have to move these troops across Vichy France as well - and technically we are still at war with them!! In that time, the Garrison will be reinforced as the English rule the waves. The quick and more likely answer is the movement of the appropiate airforce squadrons to Spain.

At this point of the war, the neutralisation of Gib is something that would be handy, but is not vital to our long term strategic aims. Gib and Malta were important for the North Africa campaign - but that isn't happening yet.Sadly we must wait for the Italians to mess up big time before that happens.
This is a marathon, not a sprint - we must look to our long term aims - Romanian and Middle East oil.:2thumbsup:

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You also have to remember at this point British were mostly concerned about defending England.Arming up home guard to fight against possible invasion.Britains land forces are at rock bottom at the moment.About Airsquadrons.Ofcourse we need Airsquadrons and atleast 5 divisions to take Gibraltar and protect the attack forces flanks.But Airsquadrons have never taken anything by themselves.
There were lots of more heavily manned and heavily fortified defence areas on ground during Operation Barbarossa then Gibraltar.And with combined arms aproach,just like in plan of Operation Felix those can be cleared of any resistance.
About the Strategig importance of Gibraltar.Why did Germans made the plan of taking it,if it was of no importance?
I dont understand the meaning of securing of Romanian oilfields.At this point we are in good relations with Romania and the Ribbentrop pact is fully operative with Soviet Union.That is supplying us with the raw materials we need.Bessarabia was to go for Soviet Union,but Romania is in our sphere of influence.
The fact is at this moment we are in command of Continental Europe with our allies and we dont have the force to invade England.So what better strategy do you have then to isolate England from its Colonies by taking her Strategig locations from West to East starting from Gibraltar and ending at Suez?~;)

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

I would like to suggest a double Operation. First attack Malta with mixture of Italian and German forces and then after lets say in 6 hours strike Gibraltar with German landforces.This way we would get the British fleet starting to move out from Gibraltar so it would be easy picking.Also we would cut of its retreat after the Malta has been taken.By shutting Gibraltar with our own artillery and Airforces.If this gets any support i will start creating more detailed plan.:bow:

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This might actually work, except that it would perhaps be better if we took Malta with paratroopers. It would be a good testing ground if we intend to alter the standard doctrines (namely, the annoying jump-without-weapons one, but that's just me). It would also be good for gathering experience for the inevitable showdown with actual Brit forces. The paras could be the first wave, followed by the Italian troops.

However, our problem is the Mediterranean fleet in Alexandria. It is very powerful, and not that far from Malta itself. It could be a problem if they were sent instead of the Gibraltar squadron. Perhaps if we convince the Command in Alexandria that Malta is a diversion and that our actual plan is to invade, say, Palestine, forcing the Brits to retain their Mediterranean fleet near port, and further forcing them to send the Gibraltar squadron to aid the besieged island. With success, we could trap all those ships in the Mediterranean.

In North Africa, once we are past El-Alamein, we should have no problems, the locals are probably going to be quite happy to help us out against the British opressors.