The Will of the Senate - out of character thread III

My Consular term was divided in two distinct parts. The first half took one or two weeks, as had been normal up to that point. In the second half, the Macedonians attacked, and there were 3-4 battles per turn and it took forever. I suspect the latter kind will be the norm from now on.

Strangely enough, I found the second half easier to play. Load savegame, click battle, send savegame. Takes 15 minutes. Then you're off doing other things, only having to occasionally check the org (like you wouldn't be doing that anyway). If anything is onerous, it's having to sit down and play through a few turns in one sitting. The second half was the easiest campaign I ever played. Didn't have to put in much concentrated effort, literally had days to make decisions, and I could send tiny armies against huge enemy stacks and count on heroic victories without putting in any effort. What more could you ask for? :laugh4:

The only problem is that it makes senate sessions, and especially senate elections, very sparse. So, I wouldn't be against reducing the term length. That's from a senate point of view; as far as the consul is concerned, I, at least, had no problems.

I did not find my reign particularly difficult, but I didn't have anywhere near as many battles as FLYdude or DDW. Also, I get something of a kick out of all of the detail required by these things and I can find enough free time to devote to it for a couple weeks at a time to get it done. However, I fully understand that others don't have the desire or the ability to do the same. I have no problems with making it a 10 turn (2.5 year) Consulship, but I am still concerned that this isn't long enough for more than limited objectives and campaigning. Thus, I would like to request a change in the rules if we do this. I would like to suggest that we shortern the terms, but allow anyone to serve up to 2 terms in any 15 year period, including consecutive. Effectively, this is no different from our current system (5 year term + 10 year ban). However, this would allow people to do shorter, more dispersed single terms as well as serving a 5 year term like we have now. Just do well enough to get yourself re-elected and you've got the normal length Consulship if you want it.

I like Tincow's idea.

If anyone is curious where my comments in the Deliberations came from, the Lex Julia specifically laid out the punishments for adulty. Yeah, it's a good 250 years after our current game, but it's probably a good guide for what the mid-Republic thought as well.

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123. The consequences of adultery (Paul, Opinions 2.26.1-8, 10-12, 14-17. L)
2.26
(1) In the second chapter of the lex Julia concerning adultery, either an adoptive or a natural father is permitted to kill with his own hands an adulterer caught in the act with his daughter in his own house or in that of his son-in-law, no matter what his rank may be.

(2) If a son under paternal power, who is the father, should surprise his daughter in the act of adultery, while it is inferred from the words of the law that he cannot kill her, still, he ought to be permitted to do so.

(3) Again, it is provided in the fifth chapter of the lex Julia that it is permitted to detain an adulterer who has been caught in the act for twenty hours, calling neighbours to witness.

(4) A husband cannot kill anyone taken in adultery except persons who are infamous, and those who sell their bodies for gain, as well as slaves. His wife, however, is excepted, and he is forbidden to kill her.

(5) It has been decided that a husband who kills his wife when caught with an adulterer should be punished more leniently, for the reason that he committed the act through impatience caused by just suffering.

(6) After having killed the adulterer, the husband should at once dismiss his wife, and publicly declare within the next three days with what adulterer, and in what place he found his wife.

(7) A husband who surprises his wife in adultery can only kill the adulterer when he catches him in his own house.

(8) It has been decided that a husband who does not at once dismiss his wife whom he has taken in adultery can be prosecuted as a pimp.

(10) It should be noted that two adulterers can be accused at the same time with the wife, but more than that number cannot be.

(11) It has been decided that adultery cannot be committed with women who have charge of any business or shop. [20]

(12) Anyone who has sexual relations with a free male without his consent shall be punished with death.

(14) It has been held that women convicted of adultery shall be punished with the loss of half of their dowry and the third of their goods, and by relegation to an island. The adulterer, however, shall be deprived of half his property, and shall also be punished by relegation to an island; provided the parties are exiled to different islands.

(15) It has been decided that the penalty for incest, which in case of a man is deportation to an island, shall not be inflicted upon the woman; that is to say when she has not been convicted under the lex Julia concerning adultery.

(16) Sexual intercourse with female slaves, unless they are deteriorated in value or an attempt is made against their mistress through them, is not considered an injury.

(17) In a case of adultery a postponement cannot be granted.

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Just a note on the trial - Braden requested to me sometime back that he decide the verdict but then lay out options for punishment that the Senate vote on. I agreed - it may not be the role we are used to a judge taking, but it is probably better from a dramatic point of view. Think of it a bit like Kenneth Starr reporting on the Clintons to US Congress and the Congress deciding what to do about it.

On the length of office, given the experiences of past First Consuls, I think DDW may be right and we should be flexible - so people can stand for half a term or a full term; alone or with a pro-Consul. Whatever is convenient for the player concerned. I like TinCow's idea of no more than 5 years in any 15 year interval.

Sounds good to me :2thumbsup:

Seems like there may be bad news for Manius in store. Well, Kydonia could really use a good governor. Oh wait, Manius is a horribly bad governor...errr...Melite ?

This however does not address the laws concerning traitors :book: :

A steep cliff of the southern summit of the Capitoline Hill, overlooking the Roman Forum, the Tarpeian Rock (rupes Tarpeia) was used during the Roman Republic as an execution site. Murderers and traitors, if convicted by the quaestores parricidii, were flung from the cliff to their deaths.

Perhaps a bit harsch ?

I like the suggested Consul rules. The more flexible the better for any potential nominees. Will we be making it official with a vote come mid-term?

Yes, I think we can go ahead and hold a full election this term as well as proposing this change in legislation. We can justify the election before the legislation passes by saying that the co-Consul died and thus a replacement is needed. I doubt the legislation will fail since we're all so far in favor of it, so from then on it will be perfectly legal.

FlyDude, I really liked that last battle - would have been great from a game & RP standpoint if you had actually withdrawn when the weather turned nasty.

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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

FlyDude, I really liked that last battle - would have been great from a game & RP standpoint if you had actually withdrawn when the weather turned nasty.

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Oh man, it would have been awesome. Retreated from the city, not capture it. Lots to talk about! But hell, I loved the battle anyways. Very nicely narrated and all.

I know! But I wasn't actually paying attention to the weather during the battle. I noticed the change but didn't think much of it as usual. Only as I was writing the report did I notice that it was really dark and ominous, and remembered the stuff about the curse, especially regarding Bylazora. Ah well, I'll just have to keep a closer eye on omens in the future.

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

I know! But I wasn't actually paying attention to the weather during the battle. I noticed the change but didn't think much of it as usual. Only as I was writing the report did I notice that it was really dark and ominous, and remembered the stuff about the curse, especially regarding Bylazora. Ah well, I'll just have to keep a closer eye on omens in the future.

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Ah, that totally makes sense. No biggie, you can always leave the city as you came, not a garrison or anything. That could still make some RP sense right...? Maybe it's not worth it though, if we could use the city.

...

I just want to annouce my resignment from this incredible PBEM. I just don't feel like giving it it's right, and in fact, I can't.. Too many things to do nowadays, and with the ongoing bad politic situation in the world, one just doesn't have the spirit.. With sorrow I say it: Good bye.

Regards.

How unfortunate. I hope your spirits will improve in time. There's not a lot I can do about the ghastly politics of our age, I regret, but we can hope.

This leaves me in a bit of a fix however, and so I will hand the avatar of Publius Pansa over to Lucjan, if he so desires. I hope you understand, x-dANGEr, that the show must go on. Should you desire to return at a later point he will be returned to you. All that's needed now is econ21 and Lucjan's approval.

Erh...I'm honored by the thought..but I've gotten really attached to Servius, being an avid RPer and all, I have a tendency to stick with characters to the end. :embarassed: Sorry but I'll have to pass on Publius Pansa.

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

...

I just want to annouce my resignment from this incredible PBEM. I just don't feel like giving it it's right, and in fact, I can't.. Too many things to do nowadays, and with the ongoing bad politic situation in the world, one just doesn't have the spirit.. With sorrow I say it: Good bye.

Regards.

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Sorry to see you go x-D, but I hope you will be back soon.

In other news, I'll take Publius Pansa if thats OK, and he'll make a much more logical co-consul than Cornelius Saturninus as well.

Okay, that's all settled than. Do you want to take over as co-consul later or do we hold elections ?

For your entertainment :
I and my brother have just been trying to kickstart another car with a dead battery. Evidently, my brother had never been explained that the black cable is always minus. You'd be amazed how quickly your startcables melt and the amount of smoke (and the smell !) this generates. Then, to my total embaressment, I had to go and borrow another set of starting cables from my neighbour who had been watching the two stooges at work. It's going to be one of those kinda days :laugh4:

Sounds like a similar problem I had. I thought my battery had died so had somebody at work try to help me jump the battery, we tried three times and the car wouldn't start. Turns out my battery was fine, and after that probably supercharged. The issue was a stuck fuel injector, all I had to do was hit the gas when I turned the key and it unstuck itself. :oops:

I'm sorry to see you leave too, x-dANGEr: you were a good contributor on the role-playing side and an impressive battlefield commander. :bow:

Mount Suribachi can take Publius Pansa. Mount never really had time to get used to Saturninus and Pansa is a natural pro-Consul (I think many of us assumed he would be First Consul under x-dANGEr).

On the issue of what happens in terms of an election at the coming mid-term, I would like DDW and Mount Suribachi to agree by PM with each other what they would like to be done and then announce it here. As far as I am concerned, we voted for DDW on the understanding that he may give up his powers to a pro-consul at his discretion for a period. I deliberately kept Amulius Coruncanius's name off the ballot box because I did not want to deal with how to divide authority between two players. So, I personally don't see why the death of Amulius Coruncanius and the substitution of Publius Pansa changes anything. But if DDW and Mount feel differently, then they can propose what they think best.

EDIT - There was a horror story here, I've since deleted it. :-p mwuahaha

Uhhhh, sounds more confusing:dizzy:

TBH, right now we need every LH senator at the front line anyway. I'm happy to leave things the way they are.

A "provincial" system is an interesting idea and maybe workable, given that this PBM has showed it is possible to delegate fighting specific battles to other players and still keep the show on the road. But formalising it and implementing it would be tricky and is probably something best left to a future PBM. However, Senators in this PBM are encouraged to lobby for specific assignments and commands etc. It's probably easier to let the First Consul's deal with these on an ad hoc basis rather than an a whole new layer of complexity to the PBM rules.

Urg... I just realized that doing elections every 10 turns will require full updates of the Library every 10 turns as well. While not that big a time difference, since the turns are taking twice as long as before, it will effectively double the number of screenshots in the Biographies. I hope people will forgive the load times.

Ok, then lets set the whole provincial idea off to the side for now. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

I'll go back and edit that out so it doesn't scare people! :oops: lol

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Urg... I just realized that doing elections every 10 turns will require full updates of the Library every 10 turns as well. While not that big a time difference, since the turns are taking twice as long as before, it will effectively double the number of screenshots in the Biographies. I hope people will forgive the load times.

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Just pump up your internet cache a bit higher.

Good news! have now posted my judgement and punishment options.

I have to admit that the judgement isn't as long as the origional draft, but as that was lost due to a computer crash I've done my best to re-capture its essence.

Please note that you can vote for any or ALL of the options available.

Since it's clear that I am going to assault Comata, if I may ask in advance what to do with the settlement once it is taken? Do I occupy, enslave, or exterminate? Thanks.

Mount Suribachi is asleep now, so if you want to fight now, you can download the savegame and then upload it after the battle and inform Mount Suribachi.

My standing order to all generals :
If a town numbers more as 5000, enslave the population, unless it's one of our towns that we liberate of course :laugh4:

Savegame :
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/258-spr-1.zip

I think we've generally used a rule (as the Romans) of no-enslavement/extermination especially of "civilized" cities (Greek, Roman) etc unless there's a good RP reason for doing so. Eg Illyria stabbing us in the back, thus incurring some good old fashioned Roman vengeful wrath ~:)

I see things differrently. I've just finished reading Ceasar's Gaul campaigns (De Bello Gallico) and enslavement was the order of the day, regularly enslaving tens of thousands of people, or even entire tribes. An estimate of the number of slaves taken during this ten year campaign numbers around one million. Rome numbered around ten slaves for each citizen/freeman. There actually was ecessive slave taking in the Greece campaigns, as the civilized slaves were very valuable. The generals financed their careers and campaigns by enslaving the people they conquered.
Extermination is very extreme and rare in Roman history (no profit in it, see). I think it only happened on or two times, most notably of course Carthage.
Finally, I prefer it in game terms, as it is hard to subdue a conquered city numbering over 5000. Enslaving half the population will give us time to build stuff and generally reduce unrest.