Bioshock non-gameplay discussion

Well, I don't care about rootkits that don't actually harm me or my computer(I don't think they want to steal my screenshots or my digital job appliances though I'd happily take any job offers they have :sweatdrop: ).

What makes me angry is that they want to dictate how often I can use something that I payed them money for, especially when the end of use does not necessarily mean I'm at fault(my HDD could fail twice a week forcing me to reinstall).

I remember I ran out of activations for Earth 2140 because I had two 512MB RAM sticks, activated, then put in another 512MB stick, activated, found out it wasn't worth it(the third stick was slower etc), took it out, had to activate it again. Well, this is mighty stupid, not even Win XP wanted me to reactivate because of a tiny RAM stick. IT's absolutely ridiculous and it's also the reason why I haven't downloaded a single song from a legal download site. I'm not paying them to limit me.:wall:

AFAIK Securom doesn't use rootkits, or at least hasn't used them in the past.

I'm stunned. I've heard the name SecuROM many times but never in a bad context. I thought it was one of those standard CD-on-startup checks. All this about limited activations and covertly installing software on the user's PC is completely new to me. Starforce and Steam are the only ones I've heard bad things about. I won't let either onto my PC.

As for this "activate your install" business ...! :rtwno:

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If you installed the demo, you have installed SecuROM's rootkit. Apparently it makes AVG anti-virus very unhappy

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Yes, it does. Or something in the demo does. AGV was yelling that it had found 23 instances of Trojan Horse Generic6 on my PC after I installed the demo. The PC was clean before that. The demo zip scanned as clean before I opened it, as did the unpacked installation files.


Oh well, my copy of the game is installing as I type. I've already installed the demo. Too late to change my mind if I wanted to.



Now that the game is out, I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to use spoiler tags where appropriate. Untagged spoilers can ruin a plot oriented game for others.

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Originally Posted by Crandaeolon

AFAIK Securom doesn't use rootkits, or at least hasn't used them in the past.

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The Bioshock version uses something that at least triggers rootkit varnings from several test programs. And some anti-virus programes (AVG atleast) go haywired about trojan varnings, so it's fairly certain to say that something is amiss.

Whatever reason, whoever came up with those limitations is one very biiig fool. I mean, had it worked prefectly, most normal costumers would feel the problem after a year or so... And that would reflect badly on 2K and horrendously on Securom, as it does now. The difference is that at that point the costumers are most likely really screwed over and certainly not willing to give the companies a second chance to redeem themself.

Bioshock is on hold here, until the matter has been resolved. Had it only been Securom (that atleast currently doesn't seem to give any issues that I need to bother about), but it's much more into it atm.

Edit: And SecuROM is currently on my computer thanks to that demo. :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

I'm stunned. I've heard the name SecuROM many times but never in a bad context. I thought it was one of those standard CD-on-startup checks. All this about limited activations and covertly installing software on the user's PC is completely new to me. Starforce and Steam are the only ones I've heard bad things about. I won't let either onto my PC.

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Same here.

Seems to be a popular game though, almost sold out in the local GameStop(no, didn't want to buy it, I know someone who works there).
I hope they get millions of calls from angry customers.~;p

I'm going to hold off buying it until more comes out about the copy protection. It's a pity because I was really excited about this game, but there comes a point at which it's not worth it for a game I can't control.

The "is it a rootkit or isn't it" debate is ongoing and robust. SecuROM swears up and down that it isn't, but they're a branch of Sony, and Sony has a long track record of doing horrible things to PCs and misrepresenting after the fact, so I don't think their word is worth anything.

Best analysis I've read so far:

It seems like you're saying the SecuROM is not a rootkit only because SecuROM does not intend to do anything evil. This is akin to saying it's all right if I use a nuclear warhead in my back yard as a microwave oven because I don't intend to use it for anything evil.

It's the potential for misuse that defines a rootkit, not the goodwill of the developers.

Any software that does not provide any uninstall utility is malware. The moment you attempt to take away my right to choose what is and isn't installed on my system, you've crossed the line between good intentions and bad. That's why I don't approve of SecuROM.

I installed the demo through Steam and found the rootkit but AVG anti-vir didn't pick up anything...

The issue is settled for this lemur. I've written Steam, requesting that they revoke my license and issue a refund. I also sent an email to all of the corporate contacts for 2K that I could glean from corporate reports and press releases (they don't seem to have a public directory, so I had to email where I could).

I've decided that using online activation for a game crosses the line. I could go into all of the reasons here, but I don't think it's necessary. I would have loved to play BioShock all the way through, but sometimes you just have to know when too much is too much.

I'll let you know how it goes; I don't expect this to be easy.

Nicely done Lemur, I hope you succeed.:2thumbsup:

If this would make big enough waves, I could already see some legislation here that requires them to write onto the package what sort of copy production is used. Maybe I should write to the appropriate consumer lobby groups.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

I installed the demo through Steam and found the rootkit but AVG anti-vir didn't pick up anything...

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Can be that AVG has patched it away now. It seems to be the install files that makes AVG react. At least is was for me. The demo works fine with the files quarantined and I'm not getting anything from the rootkit or the demo.

My second download was from Steam so unless they changed something in the demo, downloading through Steam doesn't make a difference, except possibly that the files are only in temp files and not in a chosen folder. And only the file scanner seems to pick it up. So if you downloaded it today, you might see AVG react to it tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

The issue is settled for this lemur. I've written Steam, requesting that they revoke my license and issue a refund. I also sent an email to all of the corporate contacts for 2K that I could glean from corporate reports and press releases (they don't seem to have a public directory, so I had to email where I could).

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Were there already 2 other Lemurs signed into the 2K forums? ~D

I've gone about 20 minutes past the point where the demo ended. Most of the beginning section is the same as the demo, except for a few changes which make your character less uber, those being:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No machine gun until later on; not found the flame power yet; fewer bullets fot the pistol.

From what I've seen in-game and in the manual it looks like my hopes for character customisation will be met. There's a lot of potential upgrades, and I doubt you'll be able to afford them all.

AVG? I'm not up on the lingo. I have Norton, and you're saying that if I run the demo, it'll pick up all sorts of mish mash and the demo might crash?

Bah.... I was planing on picking up the game at the mall this afternoon, but it looks like I'll pass on this one (and I didn't install the demo, luckily). I'll put up with activation DRM for software I really need, like Photoshop, but not for something relatively trivial like a game. Also, I sometimes like to go back and revisit games I've played in the past, and there's no guarantee that the activation server will still be around a few years from now. That's why I usually buy the boxed CD/DVD version of games even when there's an online purchase version.

I wish there was a way to let them know that they actually did just lose a customer over this kind of thing, but just posting on a forum and saying "I'm not buying it" doesn't carry much weight. And most stores won't give you a full refund, or let you exchange for another game, so that screws that avenue of protest.

Great way to ruin what looked like a good game. I'll spend my money on games like GalCiv2, from companies like Stardock that treat their legitimate customers like actual customers, instead of thieves.

Just read through most of the SecuRom thread at the 2K forums, there are a lot of people cheesed off about this (Lemur's is post #1034 ~D ). For a while, this thing was growing faster than I could read it. The activation servers went down apparently. ~:rolleyes: I'll be posting a "not getting my $50" post soon. Useless gesture, I'm sure.
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6628

Aside from the obvious DRM/rootkit issues, online activation is just a bad idea. What happens if Jack Thompson sues TakeTwo into oblivion? If we want to re-install 3 years from now for a memory-lane game, we're hosed.

PS - Apparently, the Steam version also has SecuRom, 2K didn't trust Steam's DRM method.

I have the demo through Steam. The eye-candy is exceptional, but not my kind of game.

So now I have the SecuRom weirdness in my rig? Is there a way to tell for sure and get rid of it?

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Originally Posted by drone

What happens if Jack Thompson sues TakeTwo into oblivion?

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You mean people are still taking that nutjob seriously? :gathering:

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Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

You mean people are still taking that nutjob seriously? :gathering:

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http://xboxer.tv/2007/08/jack_thomps..._set_on_b.html
Well, I don't know about seriously...

Personally, I don't think SecuRom is a rootkit. I operate on the literal definition of the term, which would mean it's "kit" that gives "root"-level access to a PC. I don't believe that SecurRom does that. However, crapware, shovelware, ect would still apply in my book. :no:

It sounds like the activation mess is Half-Life2 all over again and highlights why I try to steer well clear of games that require you to go online and beg permission just to play an offline, single-player game.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

The issue is settled for this lemur. I've written Steam, requesting that they revoke my license and issue a refund. I also sent an email to all of the corporate contacts for 2K that I could glean from corporate reports and press releases (they don't seem to have a public directory, so I had to email where I could).

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Good luck to you. :bow:

Ken Levine says they will remove the activation at some point, as well as nixing any rumors of a PS3 release.
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/24/le...-on-pc-issues/

One thing I have to call BS on:

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Levine admits there were "real screw-ups" and he "understands why people are pissed off" about the online copy protection verification for the game and it comes down to a classic victim of their own success story. They couldn't have planned the game would be such an insta-hit and they weren't prepared, so when all those people tried to verify their PC versions online during installation the server crashed.

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Couldn't have planned it would be a hit!?! It's been on everyone's radar for over a year! Surely they had some clue, and should have known about the HL2 release fiasco. :no:

They didn't feel like spending the money to have a decent server.

The reinstall limit has been raised to five now. Also, in theory, if you uninstall it gives you that install back again. Of course if you can't reinstall because, for example, your drive got fried then that is one installation which you won't see again.

As an anti-piracy measure I'm sure this system will prove utterly ineffective. However that is not the point. The idea of the online activation and SecuROM protection is merely to ensure early sales of the game. I'm sure that all concerned are fully aware that it will be cracked sooner or later.

The point of the limited number of installs allowed is designed to improve long term sales by damaging the second-hand and exchange markets. Simple as that really.

Of course the main issue for most is that, whether the protection is a rootkit or not, a pirated copy will have more utility than a legimate copy. This is clearly backwards, contrary to the whole idea of copy protection and highly insulting to the legitimate consumer.

Someday a producer will realize that and make money hand over fist.

Is anyone else out there playing the game? Would be a tad ironic if my wish to avoid reading spoilers in the line of duty was fulfilled by everyone else avoiding the game like the plague :tongueg:

Well I have the game and it is installed on my one and only gaming machine so any damage is already done and I am not overly concerned...

It still rocks are a game...

I have no doubt that the game is of the highest quality. I will not, however, buy it while this system of protection remains in place.

If a way of removing the protection turns up, either legitimately or illegitimately, I will buy and enjoy.

I've long since stopped buying games when they are first released, preferring to wait until patches and mods have been released. This only gives me more reason to wait.

I ended up buying the game, but I have a certain problem. The game actually makes me panic at times, reducing me to running away and wasting precious ammo in desperate bursts without any considerable effect, which makes playing the game an ordeal for me. I suppose this is a result of well created atmosphere on the game. I must admit, that already entering Rapture felt like taking a plunge into the unknown and after plunging into it I feel like I'm descending deeper and deeper into the unknown, without any knowledge of what direction to take to save me from it. Rapture isn't a place I want to explore, but a hell that I want to escape and the only way to escape it is seems to be to throw all my fears aside. But why does it have to be so hard?


PS. the game has already made me squeal once in terror. :shame:

I find it disgusting that the computer game industry seems to be the only one which allows publishers to so screw over paying customers by selling them a product without the right to actually own it, to have a physical product that is yours. All this business of activating a download, or registering my purchase makes a mockery of property rights, let alone installing unwanted programs onto computers of customers.

Lemur, good post on the 2k forums and I wish you luck in getting the refund. If only more people would do that (or not buy in the first place) it might make publishers stop and think. Or destroy pc gaming. I don't know, really.

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

Is anyone else out there playing the game? Would be a tad ironic if my wish to avoid reading spoilers in the line of duty was fulfilled by everyone else avoiding the game like the plague :tongueg:

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I'm playing it, just starting out though (so I appreciate the spoiler warnings!)

After my initial rant, I cooled off and found some more info about what's actually going on. Short version: it's not a rootkit. It does get flagged by RootkitRevealer, because that program flags all suspicious methods for hiding keys, and this is causing some confusion. Here's the geek-level info on all this, for anyone interested:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.p...7&cid=20349927

This may or may not make people feel better about what the company is doing. It's still kinda nasty, but far from rootkit nasty, and this isn't the first game I've played that stores hidden SecureRom keys.

The company is also saying that they'll remove the activation limits (all limits, not just increasing it to 5) after the initial release period when the game is hot. They're not committing to a date, but that seems reasonable. It answers the question of "what happens if your company is gone, 2 years from now and I want to play it again?". So there's an element of trust required here, but I think they've been burned pretty badly by the initial user response, so I'll give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

BTW, I did a manual "check for updates" in AVG before installing the game, which did pull in a new update, and the game installed without triggering any alarms. So maybe AVG now has this particular set of game files off the hot list. Or maybe I just got lucky, I dunno. I'm also surprised that I can play the game fairly smoothly with high effects settings on my 2-year old machine (although only at 1024x768).

Anyway, looking forward to some game discussion once I get a little further. Some spooky stuff going on around here, and I really like the 30's Deco theme. Reminds me of the Dr. Phibes movies.... I keep expecting Vincent Price to jump out from the next corner.