Russia's new approach to dealing with "extremists"

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Tribesman: The UK is holding those suspects. Russia wants them. UK says no. Suspects stay. Story over(?).

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Well if you would like a different outcome to the story it would involve going through the correct channels , putting forward a thorough case for their extradition , and guarantees that the treatment and trials of the suspects would be in compliance with Britains international treaty obligations .
If the Russian government cannot do something as simple as that then it has no case at all and absolutely no legitimate cause for complaint .

For an alternative scenario for you to contemplate . If the Russian government had a citizen who was accused of a crime in Britain or France , or any other country you could think of , and that country presented evidence and summons and extradition papers to the Kremlin , if they provided guarantees of an open and fair trial , correct treatment of the suspects and all the rest of the rigmarole .
Would the suspect be extradited ?:no:
And not for the rather fanciful reason that you stated.....This is why Russia is unwilling to extradite Russian citizens to the UK; it is believed that the UK will just take harbor them too.


I still cannot comprehend your assertion that a country complying with its international obligations is worse than spreading radioactive crap around a major city .
Was it some sort of typographical error ?

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Oh ? ...why not ? Historical precedence on the whole suggests that reagions that really want to go off on their own should let allowed to; trying to hang onto them by force only results in ugly bloody messes, and I don't really think anyone other than a serious empire aficiando can argue that's a better outcome.

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Hey Watchman , you only say that because you are biased about semi-autonomous regions and their gaining of independance from Russia:2thumbsup:

Well, yeah, there's that too. But I'm generally all for letting separatists go their happy way if they now really want to (sort of like if a couple can't stand each other, they should divorce and move apart) rather than trying to prevent them by force, since that only ever results in mind-boggling bloodshed.

QED Chechenya, but there's no particular shortage of cases I think. The French could tell you something about that.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Well, yeah, there's that too. But I'm generally all for letting separatists go their happy way if they now really want to (sort of like if a couple can't stand each other, they should divorce and move apart) rather than trying to prevent them by force, since that only ever results in mind-boggling bloodshed.

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Is there a way of letting regions go when they resolutely wish to remain within the union? There are quite a few areas the British government would like to be rid of - Gibraltar, Falklands, Montserrat, Northern Ireland... Falkland Islanders reportedly now have a higher income pc than mainland Britishers, which begs the question of how staggeringly much we are subsidising them by.

I doubt it's more than the subsidies the EU forks over to your farmers. ~;p I don't actually know, is there a state legislation in existence that actually would allow one to cut loose a bit of teritory it doesn't want anymore ? Far as I've ever heard the closest anyone's ever gotten is giving or selling a plot of real estate to some other state...

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Is there a way of letting regions go when they resolutely wish to remain within the union? There are quite a few areas the British government would like to be rid of - Gibraltar, Falklands, Montserrat, Northern Ireland... Falkland Islanders reportedly now have a higher income pc than mainland Britishers, which begs the question of how staggeringly much we are subsidising them by.

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Gibralter is still a very useful place to own.
Falklands might have oil, so again are very useful
N. Ireland is probably a place that most people in the mainland would wish would sink with all hands beneath the waves.

~:smoking:

I'm going to drop the other arguments for now because I'm tired of them. They need a break anyway.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Oh ? :thinking: ...why not ?

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Well, let's appease everyone then. Don't want to provoke them into violence, do we?

We can start all over again and have about five-hundred or so little Russian principalities all squabbling to wrest bits of land from each other and be bait for stronger foreign powers which had the presence of mind to not to take up your foreign policy. We can then go to the US and let the NAs have their bits and have the Mexicans have their bits...but not before they go with us to South America and chop that place into even more pieces so we can have communism here and democracy, and sprinkle some socialism here... oh darn, they're fighting. :sweatdrop: [/emotionless sarcasm]

I don't think that any leader would look at an oil-rich province that tends to produce rebels and terrorists and say "Oh, you can go and do whatever, just please don't go around attacking neighboring provinces again.".

Hmm

I have just read about the most 'interesting' theory about the assassination.

Alexandr Prakhanov of 'Zawtra' - a Russian nationalist newspaper suggested that
it was Litwienko himself who commited suicide in this spectacular way and used Polonium because the element is named after Poland which is a part of the 'axis of evil' conspiring to undermine the Holy Russia...:laugh4:

I have just read a big text in 'Gazeta Wyborcza' about the assassination and possible explanations.

There is most intiguing one - the faction struggle in Russia to KEEP PUTIN, to MAKE him stay.
It makes sense because the various factions are interested in having the same 'tzar', someone they know and someone who WOULDN'T start the new fight for spoils of power.
They want to avoid the fight after Yeltsin left the 'throne', they want to have the same 'master' someone who wouldn't change the existing status quo.



Another thing is the 'culture of the assassination' which seems to exist. That is pretty obvious - the ex-KGB agents form most of the factions behind the throne in Russia.
It is interesting for example that the agents who killed ex-president of Chechenya in Quatar using a bomb and were captured were actually WELCOMED as heroes in Russia.
And it happened despite the agreement that they will spent their time in a Russian jail - the only reason they were allowed to come back to Moscow...
Hard to find a better example of the contempt the Russian authorities show to the responsibility for such 'achievements'.:thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

I don't think that any leader would look at an oil-rich province that tends to produce rebels and terrorists and say "Oh, you can go and do whatever, just please don't go around attacking neighboring provinces again.".

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Funny.

Let's look at Chechenya as the example you obviously are using.

It declared independence in 1991 as many other ex-soviet states, unlike the majority, thought it wasn't a republic, but autonomus region.
However it still was more or less accepted till the first Chechen War which was started after the anti-Dudayev rebels backed by 'unidentified' tanks and aircrafts were more or less beaten.
When the RF lost the war it de facto recognised Chechen independence.
Later we have economical blokade on the state and the (only) free elections when Maskhadov is chosen.
The new government struggles with large unemployement, the embargo and too ambitious warlords such as Basayev or Kadyrov.
We have clearly unstable government, but clearly not anti-Russian.
Of course later we have the Dagestan raid led by Basayev and the terrorist attacks on the blocks in Russian cities.
Only the Dagestan raid for sure originated from Chechenya, but lets assume that also the terrorist attacks did.
What happens now ? Maskhadov offers help and condemns Basayev and Puting attacks the state and begins the great hunt for ... Maskhadov ( targeting moderate leaders clearly was the priority - the radicals lived for much longer and some still do as ... Russian allies - e.g. Kadyrov).

In general we have the situation similar to the one in the Irish State after the Treaty, but this time the unlike the UK Russian Federation attacks the state refusing to speak with anyone and targeting mainly the legal government and moderate leders.
Since the people who are willing to talk are treated the same as the extremists there is only one solution - either complete conquest, possibly genocidal campaign (as it happens in reality) or even more shameful defeat for the Russian federal army (still possible).

Now why ?

1. Oil - pipelines from Caspian Sea happen to be in Chechenya.
2. Imperial pride - the Russians still live the illusion that they are empire (with the size of economy like in the Netherlands and based on selling resources and weaponry)...
3. Revenge - first war was lost in spectacular way after the army was defeated (the attack in Budionnovsk wasn't the reson),
4. Building the image of the strong leader for the new 'tzar'.
Hmm actually if Puting really will leave in 2008 what can we expect ? Another war to improve the image of the future 'heir' ?

'Bandits and terrorists' are just an excuse - analising the history of the conflict, the targets and the way it was handled clearly shows it was to re-build the image of the 'strong state', but it is just the image... a MAKE UP, a mask - hardly anything more...

Who will pay for this ? Russian people, as before, from the XVth century, but this time since the links of the internatonal trade, the worldwide economy etc is so strong we will pay for that too and this is no laughing matter...

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Hmm

I have just read about the most 'interesting' theory about the assassination.

Alexandr Prakhanov of 'Zawtra' - a Russian nationalist newspaper suggested that
it was Litwienko himself who commited suicide in this spectacular way and used Polonium because the element is named after Poland which is a part of the 'axis of evil' conspiring to undermine the Holy Russia...:laugh4:

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I thought of that as well, just didn't figure in the Polish angle :inquisitive: . It is curious that he converted to Islam on his deathbed; evidently out of sympathy for the Chetchens. How strong was his conviction to their cause? If the FSB/whatever wants you dead, they can think of much quieter/non-radioactive ways of doing it. What ever happened to the good old days of using cyanide?

Read a rather frightening article yesterday, Poetin as a totalitarian leader is scary, but a Russia where he isn't in control is even scarier. Article said that Poetin may very well be the next victim of the organised crime in Russia, the real people behind all this Polloniumspamming(supposedly), and that we can expect similar attacks on people that are harming Russia's business. A country as big as Russia ruled be the mob, now that is creepy.

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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

I agree with Rory, and this is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about the Russians being responsible for the assassination. Why would they choose a horrendously obscure method which absolutely screams 'sinister KGB conspiracy!', when they could easily do it in a much less suspicious way.

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Maybe because it sends a message to other like minded dissidents to shut up and to hell with the diplomatic consequences, if there really are any.

If it's not Putin, then he has a rogue element problem that is trying to put the blame on him. Oh those inscrutable Soviets.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Read a rather frightening article yesterday, Poetin as a totalitarian leader is scary, but a Russia where he isn't in control is even scarier. Article said that Poetin may very well be the next victim of the organised crime in Russia, the real people behind all this Polloniumspamming(supposedly), and that we can expect similar attacks on people that are harming Russia's business. A country as big as Russia ruled be the mob, now that is creepy.

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Actually, to some degree it is ruled by a mob.

According to the latest Russian research 78 % of the elite in Russia is either directly from KGB or FSB or has very strong links.
You have a clear example of unofficial links between the men in government and in other areas.
Criminal language and not only language is very popular too - for sure dirty ways of dealing with competition will be more popular, I am afraid...:thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Actually, to some degree it is ruled by a mob.

According to the latest Russian research 78 % of the elite in Russia is either directly from KGB or FSB or has very strong links.
You have a clear example of unofficial links between the men in government and in other areas.
Criminal language and not only language is very popular too - for sure dirty ways of dealing with competition will be more popular, I am afraid...:thumbsdown:

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A link to the research I believe you refer to.

Of course Russia was pretty much ruled by their mafiosi under Yeltsin. Putin has at least stripped away the power of the pure criminal class an reassigned it to his own government thugs. Some may see that as an improvement.

What I love most about the photo in this report is the Bat logo. And I thought Batman was American. Please God don't let Superman defect as well. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

A link to the research I believe you refer to.

Of course Russia was pretty much ruled by their mafiosi under Yeltsin. Putin has at least stripped away the power of the pure criminal class an reassigned it to his own government thugs. Some may see that as an improvement.

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And many are afraid that someone who will replace will 'reassign' the powers again.

In a way we have a hostage situation - Puting cannot be replaced by someone with different 'friends' because they would suffer much, perhaps would be removed from power, perhaps worse (e.g. show trials) and they will not allow that. The question what is stronger Putin's desire for good time after retiring or his 'friends' desire to make him stay.
The best way to make everyone happy is to find a suitable 'heir' to the 'throne' - if there is one of course.

In the end what loses is the society and the political system of Russia, but there are side effects to the whole word or at least to the neigbours of Russia - it doesn't make me happy either:no:

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Originally Posted by cegorach

And many are afraid that someone who will replace will 'reassign' the powers again.

In a way we have a hostage situation - Puting cannot be replaced by someone with different 'friends' because they would suffer much, perhaps would be removed from power, perhaps worse (e.g. show trials) and they will not allow that. The question what is stronger Putin's desire for good time after retiring or his 'friends' desire to make him stay.
The best way to make everyone happy is to find a suitable 'heir' to the 'throne' - if there is one of course.

In the end what loses is the society and the political system of Russia, but there are side effects to the whole word or at least to the neigbours of Russia - it doesn't make me happy either:no:

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Do you get the impression that he's tired of the whole shebang? I think why many people (including myself) prefer Putin to alternatives is because we now at least have organised violence and oppression, which we can react to, instead of the disintegration of the state which happened under Yeltsin.

Yes, I know.

Yet presently Kremlin seems to be a way too paranoid - recent anti-Putin demostraion of less than 2000 was guarded by more than 8000 policemen and was accused of blocking the traffic ( limited to one street in reality) whereas the one of the Putin's Youth of 60 000 gathered from all the Russia for the state's money with state's funds to ensure everything is overwhelming blocked the traffic in the very center of the city and there were no problems.

Russian politics are directed from Kremlin as we know that - parties are created to suck out some support from possible opposition, presidential and regional candidates are send for the very purpose so it is almost one-party state again, but the ruling elite is obsessed with stoping any possible, potential danger resulting in surreal shows of strenght.

Putin's fate is one of very uncertain factors - simplt there is noone for now who can replace him without shifting the balance somehow and though he is tired of the entire situation noone suitable is ready to take his place in 2008 - the usual problem of semi-autocratic governments.:juggle2: