EB v.80 - First Impressions?

As far as art and music, amazing, as stated many times above.
Had a couple bad crashes (not just CTDs, froze the whole box) at first, now its stable and solid as a rock, havn't had one crash after the first day.
Have to agree with the economy nerf, though. It's still not terrible, not as bad as other mods. But playing as Romans, year..254 I think, I manage to spend all my money every turn, but sometimes on frivalous things. I have every city building something all the time, two full and very well equiped armies in the north (on in illyria and one causing trouble in cisalpine gaul), about one and a half in the south holding up messina, and a number random troops in italy. I really just havn't felt too threatened, despite carthage's and aeudi's stats being much higher than mine. I feel like I could just stop building and steamrole over all of carthage and gaul at the same time (VH/H). Battle AI is a bit better, nothing great ofcourse. I'm hoping it will get harder. We shall see. Excellent work nonetheless.

I have to say I havent noticed this overly generous resource thing. Im playing a campaign with Hayasdan, and its all I can do to field about 5 units of horse archers to harass the argyraspids and pezhetairoi the Seleucids keep sending against me.

On the subject of harassing, a valid HA tactic is to stay back and unleash arrows at stuff, while staying out of reach of any attempted counterattack. While this is all fine, and works perfectly, my HAs seem to run out of arrows long before they have done any significant damage. Generally I have to withdraw and have another go every turn to have any effect. Is there any way to mod it so HAs can somehow replenish their arrows, or at least not withdraw so far, and be allowed to attack again the same turn? Im sure that in real life the HAs wouldnt just call it a day when their arrows ran out, and push of home for the rest of the year, but would instead either go back to camp for some more, or even have an extra supply with them on or near the battlefield... (I dont realistically expect EB to do anything about this, I just like the idea of harrassing stuff from horseback, wittling them down and sapping their will to fight)
Annoyingly the Seleukids also seem to respawn units I wiped out, so every battle there will be a remnant of perhaps half a dozen men, which I need to waste arrows on to kill again...

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Do I have to change my usertitle then? I play the hell out of EB. But I'm always only getting a decade or so in before I want to try out another faction to test something out, or am anxiously awaiting someone else's updates to see something new. In comparison to others then, I suppose I'm not a real modder. ~:mecry:

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No it is ok, there was actually a double meaning to game when I said "real modders don't play games". We are all ok (except me cause I never get to play).

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

I have to say I havent noticed this overly generous resource thing. Im playing a campaign with Hayasdan, and its all I can do to field about 5 units of horse archers to harass the argyraspids and pezhetairoi the Seleucids keep sending against me.

On the subject of harassing, a valid HA tactic is to stay back and unleash arrows at stuff, while staying out of reach of any attempted counterattack. While this is all fine, and works perfectly, my HAs seem to run out of arrows long before they have done any significant damage. Generally I have to withdraw and have another go every turn to have any effect. Is there any way to mod it so HAs can somehow replenish their arrows, or at least not withdraw so far, and be allowed to attack again the same turn? Im sure that in real life the HAs wouldnt just call it a day when their arrows ran out, and push of home for the rest of the year, but would instead either go back to camp for some more, or even have an extra supply with them on or near the battlefield... (I dont realistically expect EB to do anything about this, I just like the idea of harrassing stuff from horseback, wittling them down and sapping their will to fight)
Annoyingly the Seleukids also seem to respawn units I wiped out, so every battle there will be a remnant of perhaps half a dozen men, which I need to waste arrows on to kill again...

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I'm playing as Hayasdan too. I conquered two rebel provinces, build them up. Than the Sels attacked and well I took 3 of their towns (one of them is Seluekeia). Anyway with these towns I have enough money to substain 3 full stacks and some garrisons. You'll see that once you completed your mines and conquer a few big settlements money isn't that much of a problem anymore. Also I found that some of the cheapest units work the best. Archers tanvare ... and slingerers are really effective against the slow Sel units. Espacially the slingerers as they can even kill Agyraspidai at a respectable rate. Combined with some cheap infantry to keep them bussy, Horse archers and you bodyguards, you have quite a strong army which is not so expensive compared to other factions. I think I can handle the Sels now, without even recruiting new armies as they are so effective. Tough that might change if they start using more and more elites. But at this moment they are dead meat.

Dont get me wrong, I like the way it plays - the little kingdom in the mountains, fighting by guerrilla warfare against the superpower trying to invade them. Marching to the heart of the Seleukid empire seems a bit out of character, at least for the moment. I want to stick to the mountains for a little while longer. Then come storming out with a host of cataphracts and horse archers to crush my tormentors!!!

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

On the subject of harassing, a valid HA tactic is to stay back and unleash arrows at stuff, while staying out of reach of any attempted counterattack. While this is all fine, and works perfectly, my HAs seem to run out of arrows long before they have done any significant damage. Generally I have to withdraw and have another go every turn to have any effect. Is there any way to mod it so HAs can somehow replenish their arrows, or at least not withdraw so far, and be allowed to attack again the same turn? Im sure that in real life the HAs wouldnt just call it a day when their arrows ran out, and push of home for the rest of the year, but would instead either go back to camp for some more, or even have an extra supply with them on or near the battlefield... (I dont realistically expect EB to do anything about this, I just like the idea of harrassing stuff from horseback, wittling them down and sapping their will to fight)
Annoyingly the Seleukids also seem to respawn units I wiped out, so every battle there will be a remnant of perhaps half a dozen men, which I need to waste arrows on to kill again...

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You can either give the horse archers far more arrows (for that you will need to edit their edu entry), or you can turn on unlimited ammunition in preferences.txt in the eb/preferences/ folder.

Also, remember that the best way to use HAs is surround the enemy by using 3 HAs at once, thus whichever way the unit turns it always has its rear to at least one unit. Obviously this requires a lot of micro-management, but it does secure a victory. The best way to do this is to destroy any phalanx support (skirmishers/cavalry) with some medium/heavy cav of your own. Then send in your HA's to mop.

One tactic that I've thought of (but I don't know if it will work) is to split up your HA army into two or three forces, and then have each force attack the enemy seperately but in the same turn. So the first attack would come from the front, and then the second would come from the front also, and include the first as reinforcements (I don't know if that will work, but I hope you get the idea).

Foot

Overall, my first impression is that the mod is very impressive. It took about a day to figure out how to fully un-instal RTW 1.2, but it was totally worth it. I've been trying to play the Averini, and have been getting owned every time. Strangely I'm not even mad, I'm just happy that a version of RTW is actually hard for once. Also, pretty much everyone who I've showed this mod to has been very impressed, particulary by the music and voice mod.

Great work!

Yes, I finally installed EB 0.8.

Thank you guys for this mod developement. The sound is brilliant [Nomad theme kicks ass], the native voices create atmosphere and the units are very various [can I say that?!?] and beautiful, incl. the various merc units.

The gameplay is in my opinion just right. Wide areas to discover & conquer, beautiful map with all the mines, farms, tents & lots of other blingbling. :laugh4: The battles are balanced and just right timed. Economy is fine. Just gotta get into the gov building system, so some reading for me. Checked the nomad system [saka rauka] and it does add extra feel to the horseymen.
And I just can´t wait to see the new factions on the battlefield.

Oh I just love it. One thing only: the loading takes quiet a while on my computer...but well it´s worth it. Man, one learns a lot about histroy in this mod, maybe you guys could franchise it for history classes....:book:

Very very good job!!! RESPECT and Thanks to the EB team!

OK

Spent about 8-10 hours on each playing Sabean, Baktria and Luso and can only say I have enjoyed it greatly.

There are still some placeholder issues and minor tweaks needed but in terms of a progression from .74 it is a very large, well thought out progressive step.

Many thanks :2thumbsup:

Good evening,

here some annotations (mostly) to the historical accuracy of EB from a "Carthagian" perspective:

a) Overall - very impressive; the most satisfying gaming experience I enjoyed so far with RTW. Ex. g.: You are really using words like "Mahanat"=army or "rab"= leader or commander? That's not simply doing homework, that's thorough research most commercial games are not willing to offer because of budget restrictions (I think we all know the exception - a Roman city builder game, but the price (in lack of game depth) you had to pay for this experience speaks for itself - doesn't it?). If I'm not mistaken - I sometimes hear an Arabic "Yalla" during battles, but that's forgiveable due to the continuity of certain words (like b't = house) in Semitic languages for now nearly 2500 years ... In addition, the mod features two main advantages in comparison to its competitors:
aa) The economic system you created is most convincing: Whoever is responsible for the implementation of the different states of political organization for the Punic colonies deserves my admiration.
ab) I don't know why, but I found the tactical AI more challenging.


b) Some mild :balloon2: suggestions:

ba) Don't like the current chosen location for the Port of Carthage: In fact it's place on the map is known in our times as "Cape Bon". It is known, that this area had seen several punic settlements in ancient times (like Kelibia or the famous Kerkouane, destroyed in the wake of the Regulus-Invasion to never be rebuild again). So is it possible to move the port nearer to its historical place?

bb) Imho, the initial background information given to the Punic player is based too much on hindsight. In 272 bC there were simply no reasons for the Carthagians to assume Roman "infidelity" (in contrast to the proverbial "fides punica") because then the two nations could proudly look back to a common history as an "entente cordiale" for over 200 years. In fact, modern historians explain the lame Punic reaction to the Roman intervention in Messana with a misinterpretation of the Roman strategic goals by the Carthagian officals on the eve of the First Punic War.

bc) Yes, I think we all love the superb reconstruction of the two Punic ports in Peter Connolly: Hannibal and the enemies of Rome (Btw: The picture even made it to a modern Tunesian banknote). But it seems, that there`s a rather sobering news: This arrangement can only be traced back to the time after the Second Punic War. This interpretation brought forward by the British archeological expedition makes sense: You only have to consider the stark limitations the Romans forced on the Punic state in the corresponding treaty to understand why the Carthagians were so eager to hide the actual strength of their fleet. On the other side, I have read somewhere that the military harbour of Motye on Sicily shows an similar arrangement (although smaller in scale).

bd) How could you dare ~:) to "forget" Utica (the older sister, second only to Carthage itself) or Sicca Veneria? :wall: Yes, I want the real temple prostitutes! :yes:

be) Oh, in general I love the new skins of the Punic soldiers (favorite: the Sacred Band a la Richard Hook). Only the Balearic slingers I find rather uninspiring...

bf) There is a lack of a strategic challenge to Carthage. Ok, the description of the Punic hinterland in North Africa or Spain as disorganized ressembles pretty much the historical setting, but...

Lbnl: Keep up the good work. Best wishes - PTB

PS: Oh - according to Delbrück the axe in the Germanic armoury made its first appearance in the Third Century AD.

Utica is one of the contenders for the province slot (or maybe slots) that will be freed up by the re-arrangement of the Sahara. You may yet see it in game, but the 300 province limit forces us to leave out lots of important cities so we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Namenlos

Only the Balearic slingers I find rather uninspiring...

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Did you expected them to have gold enbroidery in their vests? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Foot

You can either give the horse archers far more arrows (for that you will need to edit their edu entry), or you can turn on unlimited ammunition in preferences.txt in the eb/preferences/ folder.

Also, remember that the best way to use HAs is surround the enemy by using 3 HAs at once, thus whichever way the unit turns it always has its rear to at least one unit. Obviously this requires a lot of micro-management, but it does secure a victory. The best way to do this is to destroy any phalanx support (skirmishers/cavalry) with some medium/heavy cav of your own. Then send in your HA's to mop.

One tactic that I've thought of (but I don't know if it will work) is to split up your HA army into two or three forces, and then have each force attack the enemy seperately but in the same turn. So the first attack would come from the front, and then the second would come from the front also, and include the first as reinforcements (I don't know if that will work, but I hope you get the idea).

Foot

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Horse archers in antiquity did not have an unlimited supply of arrows.

The challenge is to think like a nomad and use horse archers in combination with something that can charge home from an unexpected quarter after their target is already out of formation. You're usually trying to break up a superior infantry formation, and it's not enough to just assume that you can simply pepper the enemy infantry with arrows until they collapse. Nomads are much more clever than that, and only one general in antiquity was ever really successful at beating them at their own game using an infantry-based army.

If you want to understand why the simple form of the archery tactic isn't always enough read Xenophon's Anabasis for how an infantry force can get itself out of the heart of enemy cavalry country without getting shot to pieces. Xenophon ended up making his escape in a hollow square, complaining the whole time that he needed more archers, slingers, and some cavalry of his own.

Shooting off all your arrows at a semi-stationary opponent will cause some casualties and will certainly get your enemy annoyed with you, but if he outnumbers you two or three to one it won't be enough to win a battle. What the nomad needs to do is to get the infantry army to break formation, and one way to do this is to seem to charge and then run away. This is where the notorious Parthian shot comes in -- the horse archers are still shooting as they retreat while drawing the infantry out of formation, and when the pursuing infantry is sufficiently scattered and exposed (and probably winded), then you hit them in the flank or rear with a heavy cavalry charge. The same tactic gets used on the infantry force's supporting cavalry (just make sure you draw them far enough away from the main body before you close in).

One famous general in antiquity understood this, and when tasked with stopping a Roman army that outnumbered his own several times over he took the highly unusual step of equipping his army with a corps of camels -- whose sole function was to carry extra ammunition for the horse archers. Surenas in effect turned off the limited ammunition switch, but for his side only and for one battle only. The result was Carrhae, one of the worst defeats in Roman history. Unfortunately the TW model can't really handle this battle because it was fought on the march over several days (a bit like Teutoburger Wald with sand, only worse). As far as I know the Surenas supply train maneuver, in spite of being successful, was never used again.

Dear Mod-Team.

I just wanted to thank you for producing such an enjoyable Mod. A few weeks ago I bought M2TW, my first TW game. Sure it is a great game, but I thought it would be a bit more historical. Besides that, I had to get some strategic tips, so I googled and found this board. Here I read about your mod and said to myself: That’s the game I was looking for. Yesterday I bought RTW, downloaded your mod, registered at this forum just to say THANKS FOR ALL. :cheerleader:

-sorry for my bad English-

Glad you like it :)

and your english is fine mate dont worry about it

I first wanted to wait a bit before giving my opinion, in order to play a while and get a better holistic vision of the mod. I tried a lot of factions, amongst them Makedonia, Koinon Hellenon, Aeduii, Romani, Baktria and Lusotannan.

The mod is great. In every respect.

The lusotannan units, the new greek units and the reskinning of older ones, together with the already beautiful old units... everything regarding to modelling and skinning is awesome.

It gives you an inmersion atmosphere that is unsurpassed by any other mod. It even leads to some psichotic behaviour (very obsessive in fact), since I missed some of my obligations in order to play some more hours of the game.

The music is unique. At first I didn`t understood it much, but now, with the game, it sounds great.

You know that what you`re playing is serious. Ther`s serious work behind, a unconmesourable work of research, gathering of information, and all to make the most faithful representation of ancient history, considering the inherent limitations of the RTW engine.

It`s no comic book. It`s something that even the most grognard player can demand of a historic game, because it was made by the most grognard modders and researchers that exist on the RTW comunity. (Definition of Grognard)

The fact that the team managed to stay cohesionated during all that time, even with all the bumps in the road and all the mayor difficulties it had to face, is a testimony of the effort and dedication that the team has for the proyect, and ultimately, for the comunity.

You all are worth your weight in gold. Just don`t start to get arrogant about it. :grin:

And for all that: THANK YOU. :medievalcheers:

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri

Did you expected them to have gold enbroidery in their vests? :inquisitive:

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At least! And they should be hurling fireballs! :laugh4:

We have some rather specific detailed information about how balearic slingers looked. Balearic slingers carried three slings wrapped around their heads – a long slim sling for long shots, a short one for close targets and a middling for medium distances.

RAndom Impression:Was doing a custom battle to test ancient Roman tactics I've been studying and was suprised to find the Romans already set up in a Manipular Legion formation.Thanks EB for that time saving feature.

In short: despite some bugs wich I'm sure will be ironed out, 0.8 is a MASSIVE improvement over the already enjoyable 0.74.

The only two factions I've played (in campaign mode) so far are KH and Casse, wich I hadn't played before so I can't compare it to 0.74, but I enjoyed both, especially the Casse (I now realize they might very well be the most unique faction in the game)
Lot's of new, great stuff: the voicemods, new units, new skins for old units, etc.
I've played a lot of custom battles, and I noticed that some of the stats were wrong or strange. THe elephants and chariots obviously with their 1HP, but also for example the fact that Spartiate Hoplitai are rather weak compared to other infantry. The shield bonuses are also wrong in some places. Phalangites get 5 shield points and classical hoplites only 3 (I think). Hoplitai Ippikradithes (sp) and Thureophoroi use the same shield, but the first gets 5 and the second only 3.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

In short: despite some bugs wich I'm sure will be ironed out, 0.8 is a MASSIVE improvement over the already enjoyable 0.74.

The only two factions I've played (in campaign mode) so far are KH and Casse, wich I hadn't played before so I can't compare it to 0.74, but I enjoyed both, especially the Casse (I now realize they might very well be the most unique faction in the game)
Lot's of new, great stuff: the voicemods, new units, new skins for old units, etc.
I've played a lot of custom battles, and I noticed that some of the stats were wrong or strange. The elephants and chariots obviously with their 1HP, but also for example the fact that Spartiate Hoplitai are rather weak compared to other infantry. The shield bonuses are also wrong in some places. Phalangites get 5 shield points and classical hoplites only 3 (I think). Hoplitai Ippikradithes (sp) and Thureophoroi use the same shield, but the first gets 5 and the second only 3.

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Some of those are mistakes, others we have reasons to do it like that.

Units in phalanx get a bonus to their shield stat at the expense of other defensive ratings.

Elephants show as 1HP but they got more. Had too shoot the heck out of a bactria squad with 6 archer units to take them down.

OK, this Elephants with 1 HP has gone on way too long. A couple of people have mentioned this, but I will do so again and hopefully I will do so with enough completeness and clarity to resolve this issue. This is the EDU entry for the weakest unit of Elephants:

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;129
type            african elephant forest
dictionary      african_elephant_forest      ; African Forest Elephants
category        cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type      General_1
soldier          african_elephant_rider, 6, 6, 1
mount            elephant forest
mount_effect    horse +3, chariot +4, camel +3
attributes      sea_faring, can_run_amok, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation        7, 9, 13, 13, 1, square
stat_health      1, 4
stat_pri        0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec        5, 47, no, 0, 0, melee, other, blunt, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    area, ap, launching
stat_pri_armour  1, 5, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  15, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -4, -2
stat_mental      8, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 10450, 2613, 270, 400, 10450
ownership        egypt, numidia, thrace, romans_julii, romans_brutii, slave, seleucid, pontus, saba

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Now we all know that stat_health is where we find Hit Points, but apparently no one has read the CA provided instructions for why there are two numbers in that line, it reads:

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Originally Posted by EDU

stat_health Hit points of man, followed by hit points of mount or attached animal (if applicable)
Ridden horses and camels do not have separate hit points

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So these elephants actually have 4 hit points, not 1.

I enjoy Casse. The Britons have a unique set up, in that, midland (that is to say, non-Gallic) Britons are generally lower morale units, but combined with their 'champions', they can still be very potent; a unit of Calawre coupled with Lugoae and other militia units can even damage a legion, or outright defeat them with clever tactics. They require special tactics though, but that's part of the fun of playing the Casse. Due to their small starting area and the need to build their economy initially, it's hard to keep many high quality units, but their highest quality are totally worth it. The allied morale bonus is incredible; properly used you can keep units from breaking till they're all dead, which is pretty impressive.

Gaestatae eat them up though, and midlanders and goidils are a pain in the arse to retrain. Are any more units planned for the casse?

They'll eventually have midland axemen and naked spearmen. The latter are not like Gaesatae, but do lower enemy morale (their real use will be to weaken enemy morale; used properly with superior units, it can be like a hammer-and-anvil on morale), and should have high morale to help do their job. The axes will give them some afforadle AP, necessary for defeating some of the heavier soldiers (if you hadn't noticed, the Casse are armor light, yet have to fight through the Gauls, who, late game, are actually pretty well supplied with armored troops). There are some others being tossed around, but you'll need to wait for much to be solidifed before that can be revealed.

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Gaestatae eat them up though, and midlanders and goidils are a pain in the arse to retrain. Are any more units planned for the casse?

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The Casse get Kludargon (sp?) after the first reform, wich will chew through anything no matter how well armoured. And a unit that's pinned on spearmen and attacked by Kludargon in their rear is routed in no time. I'd say that compensates pretty well for any inadequacies...

Anthony: I noticed in the custom battle setup that there's a midlander spear unit, but I haven't been able to build them in my campaign. Do they require the foreign MIC to be trainable? If so, why doesn't the same aply for the Cymwr (sp- the midlander heroes)

They don't require a foreign MIC. Local MIC in the midlands, after the first reforms. And the Kluddargos are second reform, if they appear in the first reform, it's a bug.

I haven't had the first reform yet, either. I thought that they were available after the first reform, but I don't remember why.

This bit is from the FAQ, concerning the reforms:

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Celts (Aedui/Avernii): 2
the first 220BC and the second 120BCis going to become dynamic triggers , too.

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I assume this applies to the Casse as well. If they're not dynamic yet, I'll have achieved my victory conditions long before I get those Kludargon, maybe even before the first reform...well I guess that means I'll have time to spare to maul the Sweboz and the Lusotannan as well.

It's Kluddargos, and they are pretty late game units, fun though. They'll eventually be remodelled however.