King of the Romans OOC thread IX

You could rebel Igno but it would have to be IC and outside of the game mechanics. You could do a series of Stories and co-op's with other players on the rebellion and make it clock and dagger stuff behind closed doors.

You can't pursue the mass army version as there is no way to replicate that in the game.

For example you can't really kill characters, so PK and I have had to do our thing in the stories thread to get it done. I migfht add that it has generated a pertty impressive response amongst most of the people I've PM'd.

I'm starting to worry I've gone over the top.

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Is there no effective way to rebel? If there isn't then this PBM's going to get bad RP with happy cooperative electors when the succession's gone haywire.

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You might be able to cheat people into joining the rebel faction, but nothing more.
And since it's not possible I advise against a civil war, the game mechanics don't allow it.

When this PM is over and a new one is started we could cheat and mod so that there is a Saxon faction in America, this faction will also be played by us (using HotSeat). Once a civil war is started we can cheat them to take over settlements.
But that can't be done now anymore.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

How does splitting the screenshots between multiple posts make loading faster?

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Less on 1 page?

If you want to foment an effective rebellion, you have to network and get an effective coalition of Electors going so you can pass a few CAs.

You just can't wish it into being.

We rebelled pretty effectively when we impeached Ulrich.

As for the role-playing, I think most people are satisfied with it.

@econ21:

I was not going to react to Ignoramus post, because I felt it pointless. There wasn't any good way in which I could play it out. If he refuses to accept my actions, there's little I can do.
But it's nice to know I have that option, somehow the power to regulate the Diet should come with control of the guards or something like that! :2thumbsup:

@Ignoramus:

I believe there are ways to rebel inside the rules set in this PBM, although they have dire consequences. But that's what happens when you rebel. Considering the RP aspect, I believe there is more than enough free room to roleplay dissent and open animosity within the rules we have agreed in the Charter.

We all have to accept certain facts IC that the game throws at us OOC and so far I have only seen them enrich the roleplay rather than make it worse. I appreciate anyone who opposes Siegfried, but it has to be within the boundaries set by the rules of this PBM. Otherwise it would just be pointless for every party involved.

I for example feel that the Emperors powers have been quite crippled, not that he was overly powerful to begin with, but I'll have to live with it and adjust my roleplay accordingly.

I've decided that Wolfgang's going to roam lands away from the Reich. It will represent that he's a hunted man inside the Reich and doesn't feel safe there.

I will try and pass a CA that will enable "rebels" like me to do a few extra things.

Ignoramus:

No, there's nothing in the rules that will help you rebel, so you'll have to work at it through the rules. It's not that hard and it is pretty RP accurate IMO. In reality, few people are going to rebel unless they think they have a chance of pulling it off and coming out alive. Wolfgang's one-man-stand is nothing more than suicide as it stands, so it's a bit unrealistic. If you want to oppose Siegfried as Kaiser, the best thing to do is to work through back channels to create a rebellion against him. If you can get a 2/3 majority, you can do anything you want in the game. Even with a 50% vote you can create a few short-term edicts that can cause massive problems. If you can't get that much, all you need to do is find some people with power to go along with your revolt and cause problems. Dukes can deny the use of their armies to the Chancellor and otherwise make life difficult for them. Army commanders can refuse to fight battles. Get creative and you'll find there are lots of ways to foment unrest without starting a multiplayer battle.

The first thing you need to do is get some allies, which means not alienating every single last person in the Diet. Even if Wolfgang hates Siegfried, surely he can bite the bullet and live with him for a short while if that makes overthrowing him more of a possibility. Take a look at what FH is doing. He is working the system perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Stig

Less on 1 page?

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Doesn't help those of us who are set to view 40 posts per page. Of course, those of us who do that are responsible for our own slow loading times. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

I've decided that Wolfgang's going to roam lands away from the Reich. It will represent that he's a hunted man inside the Reich and doesn't feel safe there.

I will try and pass a CA that will enable "rebels" like me to do a few extra things.

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Since the game doesn't have a rebel/civil war mechanic that we can activate on demand, you'll have to RP it. Its the same with character duels. AG and I have been trying to work this out for a couple of days. Jan, an Elector, has been able to take on Arnold, a Duke and at least come out as a draw. This is only because of role playing. Here's a few of Kevin's role playing hints to getting what you want in game.

1.) RP your traits consistently. It might seem like it makes your character simplistic but consistently RP'ing your traits gives your character credibility. Others who have the same traits will start to trust you. Even those who have different traits will grudgingly admit that your a "true believer". Predictability helps human interaction. If your going to change your traits, either make it subtle or really obvious in a story post. Flipping back and forth will just convince players that your character is psychotic. :laugh4:

2.) Others have an interest in keeping you alive. As part of a feudal/electoral system, you play a part in the big machine. And those in power have an interest in keeping you alive so you can fullfill their agenda. Jan has a father who is chancellor, a Duke, and a King of Outremer who all have an interest in seeing Jan survive and help them pass their edicts.

3.) The enemy of my enemy. Your enemies have enemies. Work with them. I am surprised at the number of IC pm's Jan has gotten from those who don't like Duke Arnold. It is really amusing. :beam:

4.) Put your character in jeapordy. Players respect players who will put their character in danger in order to support their beliefs. No one likes someone who just shouts things from behind a castle.

5.) Allow the other player a way to save face with his character. A character that is totally beaten will become useless to the player because no one will take that character seriously. If you offer them a way to "save face", then you'd be surprised at what they would agree to. This is exactly what AG and I have been working on. We both want our characters to stick to their belief systems and not give ground. But, as players we do not want to ruin the other's character. So we've had to create this massive scenario where both characters can face great odds, survive, and still claim that they have the courage of their convictions.

Hope this helps and people can feel free to add.

Good points. . .So when are we getting the finale for the Dread and Chivalry story line? It's a bit of a cliffhanger.

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Originally Posted by OverKnight

Good points. . .So when are we getting the finale for the Dread and Chivalry story line? It's a bit of a cliffhanger.

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Well, I finished the story last night. AG just signed off on it this morning. We both agreed that were going to let GH wake up and work his magic on it. He'll take my block of marble and make a Michelangalo out of it. My first post in the story thread is only readable because he worked on it. The story is out of my head but he can make it flow to a point where you'll actually enjoy reading it.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Dread, remember that Jan has a Dread Steward now ~D ... and later on Dread Duke.


And a question:
Do I have to propose a new Edict to have the Crusade continue. Actually it can start next turn, but that is for the next chancellor to make the move. Can we just leave it like this, or does it have to be proposed again (having the propose it again seems wierd to me, as it hasn't taken place yet and it was an edict).
So what are the rules on this? (even the army is ready afaik)


Actually I think it's better to focus at Vilnius and continue from there to Bulgar.

I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.

I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.

I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.

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Well, if you RP an evil !@#hole, you can't be surprised if others wait for you to fall. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Stig

And a question:
Do I have to propose a new Edict to have the Crusade continue. Actually it can start next turn, but that is for the next chancellor to make the move. Can we just leave it like this, or does it have to be proposed again (having the propose it again seems wierd to me, as it hasn't taken place yet and it was an edict).
So what are the rules on this? (even the army is ready afaik)

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The edict that was passed did not have any wording at all that allows it to survive for multiple Diet sessions, so it will expire. In order to make sure that the Crusade goes through, you need to pass legislation that will make the Crusade valid again. Without legislation, even a Chancellor who wants to do the Crusade will not be able to due to CA 10.2.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.

I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.

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Lay low, lick your wounds, plot revenge. Remember, evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Well, if you RP an evil !@#hole, you can't be surprised if others wait for you to fall. :laugh4:

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I'm not evil, I'm just misunderstood :dizzy2:

And unfortunately TC is correct Stig.

You're going to have to do some more lobbying to get that little venture up and running again.

I'm sure you can persuade enough people to support the edict :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

The edict that was passed did not have any wording at all that allows it to survive for multiple Diet sessions, so it will expire. In order to make sure that the Crusade goes through, you need to pass legislation that will make the Crusade valid again. Without legislation, even a Chancellor who wants to do the Crusade will not be able to due to CA 10.2.

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Righto I'll just come with another Edict. It would be stupid to abondon this idea now, seeing all is ready. We could use the army to attack Krakow as people said, but Vilnius is far more important.

I think it's for the best anyway, as the argument over the Moscow expedition is fun. I have a feeling you'll be able to get it passed, but it's worth exploring again. Make sure you tack on a line about the Edict not expiring until its terms are fulfilled, that way you don't have to do this again if it's not done by 1280.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

I'm not evil, I'm just misunderstood :dizzy2:

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Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:

And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:

I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:

Aye, IC a crusade will be fun even if it's not the best idea.


And I've been thinking, we could do an OOC edict allowing Wolfgang to rebel.
He takes an army and goes adventuring, he might take some city and lock himself away there. The Chancellor will have nothing to say about that settlement, as it will be his kingdom ... he ofcourse has nothing to say in any part of the Reich.

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:

And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:

I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:

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No, no. Lets just leave it as it is.

I'm swaying between being ostracised to the point where I get worse or making some attempt at rebalancing.

I mean all I did was put a few heads on some poles...it's not as if I eat babies :beam:

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Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921

haha the way i see it, each house has its own distinctive qualities.

Bavaria - Soap Opera
Franconia - Rabble-Rousers
Swabia - Snobby Royalty
Austria - Dreaded Fearmongerers

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Not all Austrians. There is a ying and yang thing going on. For each of Arnold's dread points Karl get chilvary.:2thumbsup:

Your all a bunch of big girls blouses LOL!!

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

I mean all I did was put a few heads on some poles...it's not as if I eat babies :beam:

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That would make for some interesting RP'ing. I recommend you do that in the middle of a Diet meeting.

"My Kaiser, "munch munch" if I may adress the Diet "munch munch munch"...

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:

And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:

I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:

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Genocidal? Arnold is far from the first guy to butcher his prisoners. Despite the misinformation being spread IC, it's actually been pretty common, even with some of the Holy Rollers. Mandorf, the original religious nut, was not exactly known for his leniency against heretics. The anti-Arnold reaction to me seems a bit over-the-top and certainly not in keeping with what he has really done, but all's fair in RP.

Personally, I would rebel with Ignoramus just for a French territory. Ive been trying to get another French castle for a while now I could use this for my benefit.

Swabia might be able to not accept Siegfried's throne cause IC, Hans Wolfgang and me, Friederich are all against his reign and then kinda do what Ulrich did and just go and take a province or two in France without any edicts supporting it

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Genocidal? Arnold is far from the first guy to butcher his prisoners. Despite the misinformation being spread IC, it's actually been pretty common, even with some of the Holy Rollers. Mandorf, the original religious nut, was not exactly known for his leniency against heretics. The anti-Arnold reaction to me seems a bit over-the-top and certainly not in keeping with what he has really done, but all's fair in RP.

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Are you claiming that Arnold is not genocidal? I never claimed he was the only character that killed prisoners but he certainly has made himself stand out the most. And I had my own IC reasons for going after him and making a big deal out of it. It fit with my traits and it helped fuel my agenda so I latched onto it IC. I'm not against it OOC. I've told him a couple times that he is playing a really cool character. Its just that my character hates his. In fact, I'm learning that "anti-murder" sentiment is running pretty high IC. Now, if that sentiment will be turned into votes is another question entirely but I need to wait until the next Diet session to test that out. Political expediency might drain moral support from an anti-execution bill I am considering.

Nope, definitely not genocidal. Lopping off the heads of your enemies is far from systematic eradication of an entire people. At some periods in history, it was just common sense.:dizzy2:

Of course, the Diet is exactly the place for exaggerating your opponents flaws and exploiting their weaknesses. Just because it isn't accurate doesn't mean it's not a good strategy. As you can see, your actions are reaping rewards, so who cares if they're true or not?!

Evil is a matter of perspective. :laugh4:

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Are you claiming that Arnold is not genocidal? I never claimed he was the only character that killed prisoners but he certainly has made himself stand out the most.

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Ansehelm killed about 1500 prisoners the last couple of years. He's getting close to Arnold ~D

Watch out, I'm overtaking!!!

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Nope, definitely not genocidal. Lopping off the heads of your enemies is far from systematic eradication of an entire people. At some periods in history, it was just common sense.:dizzy2:

Of course, the Diet is exactly the place for exaggerating your opponents flaws and exploiting their weaknesses. Just because it isn't accurate doesn't mean it's not a good strategy. As you can see, your actions are reaping rewards, so who cares if they're true or not?!

Evil is a matter of perspective. :laugh4:

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While Jan has been exaggerating the acts IC, OOC I academically believe that Arnold is committing genocide. He has stated his desires to eliminate the Hungarian people and has already killed 4000. All because it was considered "common sense", doesn't mean that it is not genocide. And I think it would be good if someone brought up that some killings are highlighted while others are ignored. It is no coincidence that Jan has not brought up what Ansehelm or Lothar have done... ;)

I am conceptualizing a "battle for the soul of the Reich" where legislation banning executions, sacking, and exterminations will be the centerpiece. Such legislation will hopefully spur IC debates on morals, values, the meaning of civilization, and the meaning of being Christian. Either way it should be fun! :beam: